airwave
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US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:45 pm

Apparently there was a near-collision at PHL late Sunday night between an arriving US flight and a departing ZW flight on 9L; the ZW flight aborted takeoff. As NBC10 reports (fair use excerpt follows):

Quote:
One jet was cleared for takeoff, but another pilot ignored instructions from the tower and taxied right in the jet's path[...]

The article includes the relevant transcript excerpt, part of which follows:

Quote:
US Airways Flight 1752: And, uh, US 1752, are we cleared to cross here at November?

Air Traffic Control: 1752, I need you to taxi...I gave you instructions... November Sierra. Make the right. Make the right turn southbound on November.

US1752: OK, November Sierra southbound. We're going to Charlie 27. It is open.

ATC: 1752, you are...1752, what are you doing? 1752, hold your position. 1752, ground?

US1752: You said I was cleared.

ATC: No I didn't, 1752. I cleared you to go south on November.

US1752: I specifically asked to cross, and you said, "Cleared to cross 9 left."

ATC: Negative, 1752. I gave you, I gave you a right turn to go south, November Sierra.

NBC10 seems to be the only Philly network with any info (even KYW had zilch!), so I apologize for not being able to cross-ref this one. Kudos to NBC10--they seem to have done their homework (they do indeed call it a "runway incursion") and the graphics (click the pic next to the headline and you'll see a slide show pop up) do their job.

In any event, I know this isn't BREAKING NEWS!!!! or important and life-changing/threatening/saving/whatever, but I think it is worth noting, especially seeing as it occurred during a period of light airside activity (relatively speaking, of course), on a Sunday, at night--how many other runway incursions were like that? (Honest question, that; not being smart or rhetorical.)

I'm trying to find out what ZW flight aborted--Flight Aware's not cooperating right now...
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
n710ps
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:50 pm

Intresting, the controller confused the crew. I could tell you that right now. I would be slightly confused if that was what a controller was putting in my ear peice. None the less this crew shot themselves by useing a "qoute" of a clearnce which never took place according to the transcript as it is shown here. I was not there so I cannot really say but I might have been a little confused in their shoes. They are in a bit of a tif though that is one thing for certain. I need to look and see what type and city pair that flight is to kill my curiosity though too.

[Edited 2007-08-02 07:07:03]
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phxplanes
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:51 pm

Well from the transcript it looks like it was the pilots fault. I know the FAA hates runway incursions so what happens to the pilots when all the data comes in.
 
airwave
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:05 pm

Well, if I've got this right, the aborting ZW flight was 3582. If US's flight 1752 arrived at 2333 local that evening, as Flight Aware indicates, the next departing ZW flight is 3582. Just my logical conclusion--I could be flawed, haha.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 1):
the controller confused the crew



Quoting Phxplanes (Reply 2):
it looks like it was the pilots fault

It looks like we've got two sides in two replies--fast work even here on A.net, haha.  wink 
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
n710ps
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:08 pm

3582, I have been on that flight more than a handful of times trying to get home.

And just to clarify I do agree it was the crews fault.

[Edited 2007-08-02 07:10:42]
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ikramerica
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:16 pm

Doesn't sound to me like the controller was unclear other than trying to figure out what the heck the US pilots were doing, since they weren't listening.

Pilot: Can I do A?
Control: No, do B. I already told you no A.
Pilot: Roger, doing A.
Control: what the F's your problem! Don't do A.
Pilot: doing A...
Control: STOP, YOU IDIOT!
Pilot: But you told us we could do A!
Control: No I didn't, you moron. I told you to do B!
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AirTranTUS
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:19 pm

Here is the airport diagram for PHL.

http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KPHL/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM

The controller said "turn right" twice in a row. Hard to miss. The clip they played never had the controller say "cleared to cross 9L" but we could go into the LiveATC.net archives to find out.

Sounds like the pilots wanted to park and did not follow instructions.
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ikramerica
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
The controller said "turn right" twice in a row. Hard to miss. The clip they played never had the controller say "cleared to cross 9L" but we could go into the LiveATC.net archives to find out.

Further, it sounds like the pilots were already given instructions before this exchange and didn't listen? Here...

Quoting Airwave (Thread starter):
Air Traffic Control: 1752, I need you to taxi...I gave you instructions... November Sierra. Make the right. Make the right turn southbound on November.

It's like the argument sketch from Monty Python. "Is this the room for an argument?" "I told you once." "No you didn't..." "Yes I did."
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saab2000
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:23 am

This sounds like one of the controllers in PHL who has in attitude and makes confusing and even sometimes contradictory instructions. I am not leaving the crew clear of blame, but there are a couple of poor controllers in PHL who do nothing to improve safety.

Normally it works well and there are no problems, but it can be confusing. Thankfully, an accident was avoided.
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airwave
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
It's like the argument sketch from Monty Python. "Is this the room for an argument?" "I told you once." "No you didn't..." "Yes I did."

Hahaha! "This isn't an argument, it's just contradiction!" "No it isn't!"... Classic.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 8):
This sounds like one of the controllers in PHL who has in attitude and makes confusing and even sometimes contradictory instructions.

Nah, it sounds more like a controller who thinks he shouldn't have to repeat instructions not once but at least twice to a flight arriving in the middle of Sunday night. Personally, I tend to agree with him.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 8):
I am not leaving the crew clear of blame, but there are a couple of poor controllers in PHL who do nothing to improve safety.

I listen to the PHL LiveATC feed often enough that I recognized this controller's voice when I saw the original news segment. Granted, this guy isn't gonna win any Mr. Congeniality awards, but he knows his turf. He might not do anything to improve safety at PHL--but he's certainly not doing anything to diminish the status quo, either. The same can not be said about the US aircrew.
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saab2000
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:33 am

I have not listened to the tapes.

Also, don't misunderstand, pilots make lots of mistakes. Far too many. But there is a controller in PHL who can be trouble.

Without a specific instruction to cross a runway or to taxi to an active runway or point, pilots are expected to hold short. And in any case, a pilot should always look both ways before crossing to see what is going on there to the left or right irrespective of a crossing clearance.

It was in all likelyhood the fault of the pilot. But there is frequent non-standard phraseology and slang-like verbage used and that leads to confusion.

BTW, I work at PHL all the time. Generally it is not bad from an ATC perspective. Far better than IAD in any case.
smrtrthnu
 
vega
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:29 am

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ikramerica
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 11):
FAA Looking into it:

What does the "more than 1000 feet" matter on the ground? The article puts this in like it means something. Planes routinely come far closer than that on the ground. It's the "in the direct path of a plane that is going to take off right into you so they had to tell the plane to abort and pull off the runway" that is more important. That 1000 feet is nothing on an active runway...
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vega
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:09 am

I'm not certain the interpretation shouldn't be that 1000' was not a dangerous proximity as long as both aircraft are not in danger of collision. A real ? has to be, why did the pilot ignore the controller and put his and the AW aircraft on a collision course. Anyway. that's my interpretation.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
ikramerica
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 13):
I'm not certain the interpretation shouldn't be that 1000' was not a dangerous proximity as long as both aircraft are not in danger of collision.

Neither is 50 feet, on the ground. 1000 feet is generally the vertical separation in the air that is deemed safe. On the ground, it doesn't have meaning AFAIK.
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PHLapproach
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:34 pm

To clear up a few things, the audio that they are using is from liveatc.net. Someone on the forum created a clip and diagrams that break it down. In the forum someone called it a Runway Incursion so that gives NBC10 everything. They didn't do any work themselves  Wink

FYI, the 9L departure was AWI3973

Ryan, how could you be confused by that? Did you hear Local West say the magic word "cross" at all? I don't think he could have broken down the taxi clearance anymore.

To the original poster, it was a madhouse on Sunday night! I had never seen that many aircraft taxiing or sitting on taxiways at one time. Must have been 55 aircraft out there. Like 25 guys lined up on Kilo from Kilo 5 all the way to Hotel at Spot 11. 5 on Papa, 5 on Sierra, 10 on Juliet, 5 on Whiskey. Needless to say, it was nuts.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:24 pm

I think the controller is a little more at fault. All he said was head southbound on November. He didn't give clearance to cross, nor did he give a hold short point. He should give one or the other if he wanted the plane to stop.
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airwave
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 15):
They didn't do any work themselves Wink

Haha, alright, I'll grant you that. But give 'em a point or two for even knowing about liveatc.net lol.

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 15):
FYI, the 9L departure was AWI3973

 banghead  I shoulda known I'd be wrong again, haha. Thanks for the correction!  Smile

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 15):
To the original poster, it was a madhouse on Sunday night! I had never seen that many aircraft taxiing or sitting on taxiways at one time. Must have been 55 aircraft out there. Like 25 guys lined up on Kilo from Kilo 5 all the way to Hotel at Spot 11. 5 on Papa, 5 on Sierra, 10 on Juliet, 5 on Whiskey. Needless to say, it was nuts.

Truly? Well then I am certainly mistaken in my assumption that midnight Sunday would be a time of "lighter" traffic--my apologies. Why was it so busy? Is that the new norm for midnight Sunday? Thanks for your patience with my questions!  Smile
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
wagz
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 16):
I think the controller is a little more at fault. All he said was head southbound on November. He didn't give clearance to cross, nor did he give a hold short point. He should give one or the other if he wanted the plane to stop.

How can the controller be at fault here? He was instrcuting the aircraft to taxi further away from the runway than he already was. The aircraft didn't have to stop since he was supposed to be taxiing away from the runway. It boils down to the aircraft making a left instead of right turn. Pull up a PHL airport diagram and follow along:

Apparently USA1752 was eastbound on P probably expecting to cross 9L at N (which is normal). Due to the ammount of aircraft on the ground, a detour was nescessary. The controller clearly stated Right turn southbound on November, Left Sierra. The pilot instead turned Left on November heading north and crossed 9L.

I assume the plan was for USA1752 to head south on November, east on Sierra and then come north on Echo to eventually cross 9L. A hold short clearance is uncalled for since the 9L hold short is at least three taxiways away at that point, and there were no further instrcutions given past the Left on Sierra. My guess is that the pilot was tired and didn't think through the taxi clearance that he correctly read back and instead went the "normal" route that he's probably used to taking.

Quoting Airwave (Reply 17):
Truly? Well then I am certainly mistaken in my assumption that midnight Sunday would be a time of "lighter" traffic--my apologies. Why was it so busy? Is that the new norm for midnight Sunday? Thanks for your patience with my questions!

Normally Sunday at midnight at PHL would be quiet. But anytime a single drop of rain gets anywhere within 150nm of PHL, New York Center and Washignton Center gives us the shaft and start closing our departure fixes, or placing inordinately large "Miles in Trail" on them. You see PHL is the red headed step-child airport of the Northeast. A month or so back we had US Airways Europe flights strung out all over the airport departing at 2 AM and later. That night while the New York area airports were delayed in the 150 minute range, PHL was averaging 345 minute delays.

This year has been much worse than last year, and there hasn't been more weather than last year (maybe less actually). Never have I seen such delays at PHL. I never imagined I'd see the taxiways filled with departing flights at 2 AM, but I've been proven wrong. Just heard about some politician or someone in New York State that was calling for Marion Blakey to resign immediatley because of the debacle that is the National Airspace System in the Northeast US. I couldn't agree more...
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PHLapproach
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:31 pm

Ok, I decided to listen to the audio myself in entirety and I found some more stuff that is pretty crucial. It's still not lookin' good for that Capitan.

The new clip first starts off with Local West (Controller running 9R) giving USA1752 his initial taxi instructions off of 9R. Only Uniform to Papa. At 3:00 into the clip LW tells USA1752 to follow the regional on Sierra, the RJ was the aircraft that caused SWA2570 to Go Around so he was exiting 9R at Sierra 1 and making a right on Sierra. That's why LW said "I gave you taxi instructions" since he had already told him about the RJ that he wanted 1752 to follow for the sequence over to Echo.

Smcmac32msn, a couple of people have said the same thing on other forums. "Why didn't the controller say hold short 9L?" It's because he didn't want him to hold short 9L! He wanted him to go the opposite direction. I'm only thinking that either pilot was confused and transposing Kilo as Sierra, if that was the case why weren't they looking at their airport diagram and you would think most USA guys would never be confused at Philly. Considering both Kilo and Sierra are the heaviest used taxiways at the airport and both parallel a runway. That's probably why he didn't see that RJ to follow, possibly because he was looking north up towards Juliet and Kilo...

Note: I left in some more time after it went down. He got pulled from position a little under 3 minutes after it happened.

First time using this site, hopefully it stays up:

http://www.mediafire.com/?61zs7vdmjyz

Edited a time

[Edited 2007-08-05 07:42:42]
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 19):
"Why didn't the controller say hold short 9L?" It's because he didn't want him to hold short 9L! He wanted him to go the opposite direction. I'm only thinking that either pilot was confused and transposing Kilo as Sierra, if that was the case why weren't they looking at their airport diagram and you would think most USA guys would never be confused at Philly.

I see that after WAGZ pointed that out. I completely missed Papa when I origionally looked at the the map. I was just confused on the design of where like 4 taxiways come together between the runways.
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oneskyjet
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RE: US, ZW Near-Collision On 9L At PHL Sun. 7/29

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:27 am

This is the funniest (though not entirely accurate) description of what occured that I"ve ever seen.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Doesn't sound to me like the controller was unclear other than trying to figure out what the heck the US pilots were doing, since they weren't listening.

Pilot: Can I do A?
Control: No, do B. I already told you no A.
Pilot: Roger, doing A.
Control: what the F's your problem! Don't do A.
Pilot: doing A...
Control: STOP, YOU IDIOT!
Pilot: But you told us we could do A!
Control: No I didn't, you moron. I told you to do B!

Well Done!