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chrisnh
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Who Else Boston - Italy?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:03 pm

Who might step in to serve Boston-Milan/Boston-Rome if Alitalia ceases to exist? Or will it cease to exist, despite there being no one interested in the carrier? Will it be propped up by the government ad infinitum as the 'cost of doing business' to attract tourism? Is DL a natural candidate, despite their woes at the new terminal there (re: customs/immigration)?

Chris in NH

[Edited 2007-08-03 15:04:15]
 
NW748i
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:19 pm

Methinks Open Skies will come in handy here. I agree on DL and perhaps AA will feel compelled to step in. Considering NW's pulling out of BRU and their obvious issues I'd sadly have to air doubts about them. However, I think AF/KL would want to put something together just so that Skyteam can keep what I suspect is a profitable route. Perhaps they will bring in NW/DL and together they might all dazzle (or completely confuse) us. That's depending on what happens with the anti-trust app...
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navairjax
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:26 pm

DL should start the FCO service they had once planned. Despite the terminal "woes" it is a rather minor annoyance to have to arrive at E and get towed to A. If it were not worth the trouble then AA would have had their own customs area completed as was once planned. The other likely candidates from the US would be either AA or NW with a small chance that US would give it a shot. As far as EU carriers BA would be a good candidate with their plan to take on non UK to US service with LH likely being another good possibilty.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:19 am

Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH? Overall, though, Boston-Italy (Rome and/or Milan) are valuable enough such that nonstop service is essential rather than hanging Italy onto an existing Boston-Frankfurt, Boston-Paris, or Boston-Munich run, IMO. Even though, I believe Open Skies will permit carriers to do just that.

Chris in NH
 
bond007
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH?

Isn't that available right now?

I have a ticket next month for BOS-FRA-Rome and returning Rome-MUC-BOS (or vice versa) on LH?


Jimbo
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Humberside
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:38 am

I guess if AZ ceases operations, Air One will speed up their long haul plans. Eurofly might also try to get some more A330's, though they concentrate on leisure traffic mostly
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chrisnh
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 4):
Isn't that available right now?

If it's same-plane service, that's news to me. You are likely connecting, which is a whole different kettle of fish than simply sitting down in a seat in Boston and getting off (albeit eventually) in Italy.

Chris in NH
 
usairways85
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:53 am

Not to annoy anyone, but who says anyone will start BOS-FCO if AZ is forced to cancel its flts.

Both AA and DL don't seem to be putting much focus on BOS. Both seem to be on the short end of international aircraft, especially when FCO is involved due to range issues. And DL has put a focus on more long distance intl flts, with ATL-china potentially happening, as well as SLC-CDG being rumored and service to Australia rumored as well.

This market also seems to be somewhat seasonal, granted without AZ in the market there will be need in general to offer more capacity. But CO goes from 2 daily flts in the summer (762, 764) to 5 weekly in the winter (762), US occasionally only offers weekly service in the winter. With current service looking like this i don't know if filling the void in BOS will be immediately necessary. This is a snapshot of summer service, so i'm not quite sure what the seasonal winter service looks like.

AA
JFK 1 daily
ORD 1 daily

DL
JFK 2 daily
CVG 1 daily (is this seasonal?)
ATL 2 daily

CO
EWR 2 daily

US
PHL 1 daily

UA
IAD 1 daily
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:08 am

Things might be changing for DL here in BOS. Last spring we were told nothing is in the works for BOS for the next year, but our local manager last week said there is a good chance we will be getting a SuperTug soon. There are a few obvious reasons; first by giving up the gates in A to CO we will need to reposition aircraft every night, second Massport may make towbarless the only way to tow on a active taxiway. A less obvious reason to get one is to tow between E and A. Just adding a little fuel to the rumor fire.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH?

They could do that right now, but why should they fly a A340 to Rome?

SailorOrion
 
bobnwa
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 6):
If it's same-plane service, that's news to me. You are likely connecting, which is a whole different kettle of fish than simply sitting down in a seat in Boston and getting off (albeit eventually) in Italy.

Chris, any foreign airline that wanted to could operate same aircraft service from the US to Italy via its own country. ie: BA-BOS-LHR-FCO, LH-BOS-FRA-FCO, KL-BOS-AMS-FCO etc. But why would they want to?
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 7):
AA
JFK 1 daily
ORD 1 daily

DL
JFK 2 daily
CVG 1 daily (is this seasonal?)
ATL 2 daily

CO
EWR 2 daily

US
PHL 1 daily

UA
IAD 1 daily

Your little list forgot a few things..

Alitalia
ORD-MXP
BOS-MXP
BOS-FCO
JFK-MXP
JFK-FCO
EWR-MXP
EWR-FCO
MIA-MXP

Continental Airlines
EWR-MXP

Delta Air Lines
JFK-PSA
JFK-MXP
JFK-VCE
ATL-VCE
ATL-MXP

Eurofly
JFK-FCO
JFK-BLQ
JFK-PMO
JFK-NAP

Like it or not there is a very large demand for service to and from the Italian market..

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 7):
Not to annoy anyone, but who says anyone will start BOS-FCO if AZ is forced to cancel its flts.

The Boston to Italy market is one of the largest Business O/D and VFR markets to Italy from the United States..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
B752OS
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:42 am

Unless DL is planning on sending a 763 on a potential ATL-PVG/PEK, I don't see why they could not possibly start a BOS-FCO, or MXP flight. Then again, nothing is assured as far as AZ really tanking.

It's kind of sad that DL has this big, beautiful terminal in BOS and has no international service to show for it.

A small side note. DL has added a few destinations over the last few years, such as DAY, ALB, ABE, BVT, ISP, MDW, and TTN.
 
usairways85
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 11):
Your little list forgot a few things..

My point was to specifically create a list of US carriers flying between the US and FCO. So in the event AZ cancelled all TA flts these flts would be the only flts available.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 12):
Unless DL is planning on sending a 763 on a potential ATL-PVG/PEK

Because DL is short on 772 aircraft which will be needed for Asian/Australian service. So unless they pick up some of AZ's 772, they will have to put a 763 on a current flt served by a 772 to free up that 772 for Asian service. So that is one less 763 to start new service or frequencies

Also with ATI possible in the future AA can offer BOS-FCO via LHR. BA/AA offer 4-5 flts BOS-LHR and BA offers 10 flts LHR-FCO especially a few that would connect nicely with an early morning arrival in LHR from BOS
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 12):
It's kind of sad that DL has this big, beautiful terminal in BOS and has no international service to show for it.

I agree. Indeed, the terminal was conceived at a time when things were absolutely humming for the Boston area with all the high-tech business travel. A fair bit of that went away with the high-tech meltdown, and (of course) 9-11, but Boston is a very robust financial center. So there's your business angle. The leisure angle is simple, too: Boston is a very cosmopolitan city with pockets of population that are Irish, Italian, Portugese, and so on. I would be shocked if some other airline didn't swoop right in, IF Alitalia went away. Delta seems a logical choice, although it must peeve people at DL/BOS and probably even Massport to see a nonstop SLC-CDG come along while the carrier treads water in Boston.

Hopefully this 'supertug' is a harbinger of good things to come for DL at Logan (i.e. for big jets and new routes in 2008).

As for Alitalia, I have to believe the Italian government would prop them up as much as possible. If not, they'd be saying 'goodbye' to a ton of tourism revenue.

Chris in NH
 
MAH4546
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:08 am

I'll posted my thoughts on another thread, and will just copy/paste. To reiterate, though, I firmly believe that the "worst comes to worst" situation for Alitalia will be a similar to the Swissair/Swiss situation.

Nobody would fill in BOS-MXP other than Alitalia's theoretical replacement. Boston-Milan is a small local market, but connects to Alitalia's main hub. Boston-Rome is where the traffic is, and I could definltey see maybe Delta come into Boston-Rome. Boston-Italy is quite a big market, but, like most Italy-USA traffic, very low-yielding and difficult to make money on outside of the summer. Of Alitalia's ten stations in the Americas, only half of them (GRU, EZE, MIA, JFK, and EWR) turned a profit in 2006 (the worst performer - Dulles - was discontinued in September 2006).

Alitalia's poor performance in markets like Boston and Chicago, though, is a fault of theirs and their business structure, not the markets themselves. One would hope that a revised Alitalia will be able to make money in markets like Boston and Chicago, where they should be able to make a profit, but don't.
a.
 
LH423
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:43 am

I agree 100% with MAH4546. At the end of the day, Italy will still be left with an airline, albeit a vastly reduced airline à la SR/LX. So before speculation begins on what US carrier would fill the gap, I think that needs to be looked at as the most likely scenario. What AZ needs is a complete shake-up. It needs new, sensible management who can get the airline into shape and off the government teet, again à la SR/LX.

However, in that case I'd see DL as the most likely contender. They already have good brand recognition in Italy through their regional services. AA have almost no interest in expanding BOS, particularly internationally where the rumours consistently fly about whether CDG and MAN will make it through the next year. NW is another possibility. I don't think NW are bullish on Boston but they definitely haven't made the same kind of cuts as AA have over the years and their gate situation is perfect as they're already located in Terminal E. And US and UA are not probable as neither have international service out of BOS (excluding Caribbean), and both their forays into the BOS-Europe market were fairly short lived, due either to aircraft shortage or poor loads.

LH423
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pizzaandplanes
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 12):
It's kind of sad that DL has this big, beautiful terminal in BOS and has no international service to show for it.

A small side note. DL has added a few destinations over the last few years, such as DAY, ALB, ABE, BVT, ISP, MDW, and TTN.

The airlines are just running their business. If international flights were profitable from BOS then thats what they would concentrate on. Instead they put their planes in the local markets to provide a service that would lead to a connecting hub.
A real man lands where he wants to
 
usairways85
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 14):
As for Alitalia, I have to believe the Italian government would prop them up as much as possible. If not, they'd be saying 'goodbye' to a ton of tourism revenue.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15):
I'll posted my thoughts on another thread, and will just copy/paste. To reiterate, though, I firmly believe that the "worst comes to worst" situation for Alitalia will be a similar to the Swissair/Swiss situation.

Agreed
 
airbazar
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Maybe the whole Open Skies thing would permit a Boston-Munich-Rome A340 with LH?

If they could already do that today, as posted above, US law still forces every passenger to have to leave the aircraft in that intermediate city and clear security. In this case MUC. So there's really not much advantage to operating same aircraft service. I think the most immediate consequence of AZ dropping/downgrading BOS would BOS-MUC going daily year 'round. I believe today MUC is already the largest European gateway to Italy.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Who Else Boston - Italy?

Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting LH423 (Reply 16):
NW is another possibility. I don't think NW are bullish on Boston but they definitely haven't made the same kind of cuts as AA have over the years and their gate situation is perfect as they're already located in Terminal E.

I would say that NWA has made quite sizable cuts in Boston, dropping service to SNN,DUB,PIK,LGW,FRA,CDG,HAM,and CPH. These were all flown with 747 or DC-10's. That being said, there is still a possibility of 757 service returning to some of these cities.

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