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SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:04 am

SIA mulls business class-only service on non-stop flights to NY, LA

- All non-stop flights from Singapore to New York and Los Angeles on Singapore Airlines (SIA) could well become an all-business-class affair.

- According to SIA spokesman Stephen Forshaw, these non-stop flights are targeted at business people and have always had high business class loadings. But the load for Executive Economy isn't always as strong during midweek.

- SIA is currently looking at its options for the flights, and no decision has been made. But there's talk that the change could happen as early as next year.

Source: channelnewsasia.com
 
ltbewr
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:22 am

Isn't the 'Exceutive Economy' class seats and service on those SQ flights a lot like 'Business Class' seats and service on most other airlines? But I guess that the demand for the true business class seats on those flights may be exceeding supply and per seat a lot more profitable than the 'economy' seats, so why not consider an all biz configuration for them. We are seeing a lot more biz-premium only flights in other places in the world connecting major business centers. SQ is one of the most profitable airlines in the world and got there by catering to the business community, which Singapore is rather than tourist destination.
 
kaitak
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:24 am

I noticed that report on the news section and it got me thinking: if SQ configures the 345 in an all- Class, would it be too much capacity for the route?

What I'm thinking is that, a few years down the road, SQ could go for a HGW/extended range version of the 787-8 (the same one QF is looking at for SYD-LHR) and that would allow it to retire the A345s; considerable saving there (i.e. one fleet type removed) and of course the 788ER would have commonality with the -9s on order.
 
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Coal
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 1):
Isn't the 'Exceutive Economy' class seats and service on those SQ flights a lot like 'Business Class' seats and service on most other airlines?

Not really. The Exec Economy is similar to other Economy + products out there (save UA's, of course).

The service is obviously better than on most airlines (it is, after all, SQ). But you can really feel the difference in service between Economy and Raffles/Business Class.

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Coal
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karan69
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
What I'm thinking is that, a few years down the road, SQ could go for a HGW/extended range version of the 787-8 (the same one QF is looking at for SYD-LHR) and that would allow it to retire the A345s; considerable saving there (i.e. one fleet type removed) and of course the 788ER would have commonality with the -9s on order.

Or go with the 359R which will have commonality with the 359 XWBs on order

Karan
 
KL808
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:19 am

If they go ahead and do this, what will happen to the flights that they do to keep them up to date on the type? All business class to CGK?

Maybe it is possible with CQM from A345 to A380 and back.

Drew
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ikramerica
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 4):
Or go with the 359R which will have commonality with the 359 XWBs on order

And be just as big as the a345, which is the whole problem?

The reason for the 788 suggestion was that it would hold 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the J seating a 359 would, but have a lot of cargo space...
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UN_B732
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:34 am

Could they just use the 772 at that point, since it could probably make it with all biz, or would that be too much plane for the market?
-A
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RayChuang
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 am

I wouldn't be surprised that SQ reconfigures their A340-500's to an all-Raffles class configuration seating no more than 120-125 passengers for the SIN to EWR/LAX non-stop flights. And they'll stay with the A345, since it doesn't have the ETOPS restrictions that may make it difficult to fly the 777-200ER in all-Raffles configuration for a non-stop flight.
 
andrew
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:31 am

My guess is that if they do change the config of the A345 to an all-J layout, it will be during the time that the first A333's arrive. The idea was for the A345 and A333 pilots to be cross-trained. That way the the A345's will not longer need to be dispatched to CGK to maintain pilot currency.

An all-J layout on the A345 to LAX and EWR would make sense, especially to EWR. From what I understand, J class to EWR is always full, even on weekdays. If there are any empty seats, they're usually in Executive Y.

As for the issue of ETOPS, the FAA is also going to implement ETOPS-like rules for 4 engine aircraft so we'll see how that pans out in the future.
 
karan69
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
The reason for the 788 suggestion was that it would hold 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the J seating a 359 would, but have a lot of cargo space...

Do you mean more cargo than the 359 or the A345?? i am assuming the latter, which was a given considering what the 345 turned out to be to its competitors.

Karan
 
sq452
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:04 pm

Ah hell no! I love taking these flight in Executive Economy. From what I remember, all times I have taken the route, Executive Economy is full. That would be a real shame if SQ decided to go all Business Class on the route.

You know I never understood why they didn't put First Class on these planes. Especially with the new First class product, they could probably do an all First Class/Business Class cabin for the flight.

That will be a real shame if it goes all business class. Those non-stop flights are such a time saver. and if they do go all business class on the flight I definitely think there will be overcapacity on it then. then it will be back to the days of 1-stop connections to the US Sad
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JTR
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:08 pm

I wonder, how would an Economy+/Business/First plane do on the routes SQ is talking about? Anyone have any non-confidential numbers?
 
sparklehorse12
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:13 pm

They do it SIN - BNE on a 772 - 2 class Economy and Business....seems to work for them.
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rafflesking
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:20 pm

Directional obviously....but I've taken the LAX-SIN route a few times and never seen Executive Economy more than half full (2 mid-week flights, the rest were weekends). Raffles has always gone out full.

I've also down the NRT stopover with the 744 and also seem relatively empty regular economy sections but Raffles full also.

At least in my Company, the only reason you take Exec Economy is if you can't get Raffles on the non-stops or 4 1-stop options to SIN from the States. SQ does charge a premium over the regular economy.
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 11):
I never understood why they didn't put First Class on these planes.

SQ dropped plans for 202 seats in a three-cabin configuration because payload/range performance did not live up to Airbus's promises and opted for 181 seats in a two-cabin configuration.

I'm surprised no one has raised the question of what sort of business class seats SQ would install in their A340s if they reconfigure to all business class.
 
bjornstrom
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:31 pm

If SQ decides to remove the Y+ seats im pretty sure they'd go for a combination of the new J and F seats. There must be a market for F service on these ULR routes.
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airbazar
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 11):
You know I never understood why they didn't put First Class on these planes.

From what I heard, the F product is too heavy for the aircraft to be able to fly those routes non-stop. However, if they are planning on removing Executive Economy I wonder if a 2 class config with First and Business would now be possible.
If like people say, F is always full and economy is mostly half-empty, it seem like a no brainer to at least increase the number of Business class seats especially if you consider that most of the people flying Business Economy would have happily paid for a Business class seat if one was available.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 16):
If SQ decides to remove the Y+ seats im pretty sure they'd go for a combination of the new J and F seats. There must be a market for F service on these ULR routes.

Please see responses before and after yours.
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sq452
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting RafflesKing (Reply 14):
At least in my Company, the only reason you take Exec Economy is if you can't get Raffles on the non-stops or 4 1-stop options to SIN from the States. SQ does charge a premium over the regular economy.

Usually its around $200 SGD more than the one-stop options from Singapore on a return ticket which is totally worth it in my opinion.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
I'm surprised no one has raised the question of what sort of business class seats SQ would install in their A340s if they reconfigure to all business class.

Good question. You would think that they would switch out the older spacebeds for the couches that they have for Raffles class seats on the 777-300ER Way more comfortable from what i hear.

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 16):
If SQ decides to remove the Y+ seats im pretty sure they'd go for a combination of the new J and F seats. There must be a market for F service on these ULR routes.

There definitely is, evidence of this is that they are deploying the 777-300ER aircraft on SFO, and LAX routes and the premium cabin has higher fares then the rest of the fleet. Part of the reason some of my family members never took the non-stop flights was because 'it didn't have first class' and they were authorized to take First on business. So therefore they went with the 1 stop options with the SkySuites (I know what your thinking, they are picky! and i wouldn't refute that cause they were when it came to this sort of thing, haha

Also consider this: the non-stop flights to the U.S. are NOT a money maker for SQ, its widely known on this forum that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable.

[Edited 2007-08-05 15:59:37]
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jacobin777
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 19):
its widely known on this forum that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable.

I wouldn't say "quite a bit"..but yes, it isn't a profitable venture for the nonstop flights......
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fridgmus
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
Quoting SQ452 (Reply 19):
its widely known on this forum that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable.


I wouldn't say "quite a bit"..but yes, it isn't a profitable venture for the nonstop flights......

If it isn't profitable, then why bother? Just wondering.

Thanks.

Marc
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rafflesking
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 21):
If it isn't profitable, then why bother? Just wondering.

Brand loyalty, perhaps.

We'd move our business over to NW in a heartbeat if we had to stopover in NRT anyway. But we can't get Raffles class on the directs all the time, so we default to the 1-stop flights.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:57 am

SIA are a market leader in delivering customer service, having flown in both First and Business Class with them I feel that they understand their market place.
In London we are seeing the rise of the business only airlines like Eos & Silverjet to the USA, are SIA just looking at us and seeing a trend and a market opportunity?
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sq452
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 21):
If it isn't profitable, then why bother? Just wondering.

Thanks.

Marc

More of a status thing than anything and positioning in the market. Plus, they get to say they hold the record for "worlds longest scheduled non-stop flight". Many airlines operate, and continue to operate for many years, routes that are not profitable. It's one of those weird things in the airline industry

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
I wouldn't say "quite a bit"..but yes, it isn't a profitable venture for the nonstop flights......

It's all how you define "quite a bit"  Wink
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flydreamliner
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 4):

Or go with the 359R which will have commonality with the 359 XWBs on order

And what would be the purpose there... besides having them buy an airbus?

A359R is just as big as an A345 and what, like nearly a decade away from service, assuming no delays? Something smaller 787-8 / A332 sized, with 9k miles in range is what is needed here. Then again, much like Thai's ULH routes, these are not profitable.

It seems that the longest ULH flights I can think that are profitable are CO's EWR-HKG and UA's ORD-HKG flights... I would suspect that South Afrian's IAD-JNB would make money, but I believe that is only a non-stop going one direction?

Quoting Bjornstrom (Reply 16):
If SQ decides to remove the Y+ seats im pretty sure they'd go for a combination of the new J and F seats. There must be a market for F service on these ULR routes.

If I had to guess, I would say that the F seats are simply too heavy and would create issues for these flights... and I'm pretty sure that they'd have some degree of trouble filling these flights... the only way they'd likely be able to fill 120 odd J seats is to cut the price closer to what the one-stop flights are at.

Another question - if J is always full and Y+ is not, is J full because of people upgrading from Y+ to J?

You really don't have to fly the ULR routes that much to quickly find yourself a couple of tiers into elite status... if they get rid of Y+, all of the people flying Y+ and upgrading will be gone off this flight all together.

Simply put, A345 is too big. Something A332/787-8 sized could work better, but SQ doesn't really have one of those. I would suspect that in a low density configuration with no cargo in the hold that a 772ER could probably fly SIN-LAX. most of the year, at least... though JFK may be a bit of a stretch.
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dutchjet
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:28 am

Interesting thread.

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 19):
Also consider this: the non-stop flights to the U.S. are NOT a money maker for SQ, its widely known on this forum that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable.

Not profitable, probably. Loose quite a bit of money, probably not. But, the important point is that SQ's experiment with ultra long haul flights did not work out as they had planned; SQ had thought that the flights would be much more popular in all classes of service and would become a profit center for the airline. It seems that business travellers like the flight for the convenience and shorter flying times (time=money) but the leisure/coach market is not meeting expectations....either coach passengers are reluctant to take such a long segment and/or they are not interested in paying the small premium that SQ charges for the nonstop flights. Interesting situation and certainly one to watch.....it shows how difficult the ULH market can be.

Due to the SQ's mediocre results with the SIN-LAX/EWR ULH nonstops, SQ passed on its options for 5 additional A345s and, although discussed here at a.net many times, is not ordering 772LRs to replace the A345s.

It will be interesting to see if SQ goes ""all Raffles"" on the A345s and if SQ can, somehow, overcome the weight issues and install a few F class seats on to the A345. I understand that F class seats were rejected to due weight concerns impacting the ability of the A345s to operate the flights nonstop, but if all of the Y+ seats are eliminated, it is possible that a few F class seats can be added to the mix.....and with a lower pax count, there will be less pax weight and less baggage to be hauled. A few F seats could be what it takes to make ULH a financial success for SQ.

Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 21):
If it isn't profitable, then why bother? Just wondering.

A nonstop connection from SIN to the USA was and continues to be a ""priority"" for SQ and Singapore.
 
sq452
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 26):
It will be interesting to see if SQ goes ""all Raffles"" on the A345s and if SQ can, somehow, overcome the weight issues and install a few F class seats on to the A345. I understand that F class seats were rejected to due weight concerns impacting the ability of the A345s to operate the flights nonstop, but if all of the Y+ seats are eliminated, it is possible that a few F class seats can be added to the mix.....and with a lower pax count, there will be less pax weight and less baggage to be hauled. A few F seats could be what it takes to make ULH a financial success for SQ.

Indeed it will be. You have to consider the fact that the majority of people in Business Class are high powered executives/executives of major mnc's that are most likely authorized to take "First Class" travel, but opt to take the non-stop on Raffles simply because the time it saves (I actually know 1 or 2 people in this situation). Adding say 8 F seats in if they go all Raffles on the A345 is something that would probably work given the fact that you would have some people crossover from the 1 stop flights to EWR and LAX that like flying first class cause they can, and, people that could fly first class instead of raffles on the non-stop move themselves up as paying passengers to the front of the plane.

I'm sure you take out the Y+ cabin you would be able to to do this. If you actual look at the seat map for the plane, Y+ occupies around 40-45% (probably 45%) of the interior space of the A345 with the rest Raffles class. The first row of Y+ isn't till the last half of the plane roughly near the flaps of the wing. I'm sure they could swing it, SQ just has to figure out a way. The forward most cabin that currently has Raffles could carry 8 First Class Seats and everything on back would be Raffles Class. I just hope they don't switch it between now and Christmas because I am scheduled on the flight SIN>LAX in mid December in Y+  Smile
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airbazar
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:21 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 19):
Also consider this: the non-stop flights to the U.S. are NOT a money maker for SQ, its widely known on this forum that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable.

That is a pile of bull and this forum is in no way a good source on what SQ routes are profitable or not. The fact is, SQ does not operate unprofitable routes, and they are not one of the most profitable airlines in the World by coincidence. show me an official statement from SQ that says the routes are unprofitable and I'll eat crow.
 
dutchjet
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 28):

That is a pile of bull and this forum is in no way a good source on what SQ routes are profitable or not. The fact is, SQ does not operate unprofitable routes, and they are not one of the most profitable airlines in the World by coincidence. show me an official statement from SQ that says the routes are unprofitable and I'll eat crow.

SQ does not ""break out"" results for its ULH services so there is no way to know for sure; but consider the following: (1) SQ dropped its options on 5 additional A345s, its very unlike SQ not to exercise each and every option it places for new aircraft, (2) many expected SQ to order the 772LR to replace the A345...nothing against the A345, but wouldn't it make sense for SQ to fly the 772LR as its a large 773ER operator......not only does the 772LR have a lot in common with the 773ER and the other 777 variants flown by SQ, SQ could eliminate an entire fleet type by replacing just 5 airplanes, and (3) speculated ULH routes such SIN-SFO and SIN-ORD never materialized. Such actions (or lack of actions) are clues that SQ is still evaluating the financial case for ULH services.

As I said above, I dont think SQ is losing a significant amount of money with the SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR nonstops (if they were losing tons of money, SQ would have pulled the services long ago).....but the routes are probably not profitable either. Break even, give or take a bit, is what I have always heard from people who should know the real story concerning the ULH routes operated by SQ.

The possibility that SQ may dump the Y+ product in favor of an all J class configuration shows that SQ is still evaluating the ULH flights and that they are still fine-tuning the ULH formula; as I mentioned above, the inability to offer F seats on these flights is a big issue from a financial point of view. I think (and this is just my opinion) that SQ would like to continue to offer ULH flights and eventually add more ULH flights, but they still working on the exact formula that will lead to profits.....is it J/Y+, or is it all J, or is it F/J, or would a more standard 3 class configuration work best, I dont know, but SQ will try to find out.
 
jacobin777
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 24):
Quoting Fridgmus (Reply 21):
If it isn't profitable, then why bother? Just wondering.

Thanks.

Marc

More of a status thing than anything and positioning in the market. Plus, they get to say they hold the record for "worlds longest scheduled non-stop flight". Many airlines operate, and continue to operate for many years, routes that are not profitable. It's one of those weird things in the airline industry



Quoting SQ452 (Reply 24):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 20):
I wouldn't say "quite a bit"..but yes, it isn't a profitable venture for the nonstop flights......

It's all how you define "quite a bit"  Wink

.......true... Wink however I think Dutchjet explained it best...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):

As I said above, I dont think SQ is losing a significant amount of money with the SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR nonstops (if they were losing tons of money, SQ would have pulled the services long ago).....but the routes are probably not profitable either. Break even, give or take a bit, is what I have always heard from people who should know the real story concerning the ULH routes operated by SQ.
"Up the Irons!"
 
BrianDromey
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 25):
If I had to guess, I would say that the F seats are simply too heavy and would create issues for these flights... and I'm pretty sure that they'd have some degree of trouble filling these flights... the only way they'd likely be able to fill 120 odd J seats is to cut the price closer to what the one-stop flights are at.

But by eliminating the Executive Y they could save enough weight to be able to offer 8F suites. Also bear in mind that in an A340 the new J is likely to be in a 1-2-1 configuration, versus the current 2-2-2. An immdeate drop of 33% capacity. The extra seats will have to come come from somewhere, and an elimination of Y+ is the only logical option (moving the galleys and toilets to the lower deck may also be an option, but this could be very expensive).

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 25):
Another question - if J is always full and Y+ is not, is J full because of people upgrading from Y+ to J?

Unlike US carriers, SQ provides a J product wich is worth paying extra for. So I dont think that SQ offer upgrades unless the passenger offers cash, but I could be wrong.

Brian.
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zvezda
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:40 am

SQ could operate 787-9s configured with 150 seats on the SIN-LAX/EWR routes. Doing so would bring in about 90% of the revenue of that the A340-500 brings in at about 60% of the operating cost.
 
airbazar
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):
As I said above, I dont think SQ is losing a significant amount of money with the SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR nonstops (if they were losing tons of money, SQ would have pulled the services long ago).....but the routes are probably not profitable either. Break even, give or take a bit, is what I have always heard from people who should know the real story concerning the ULH routes operated by SQ.

I still think they make more than enough on the routes, certainly a lot more than some people here want to believe. In your analysis you conveniently left out one scenario: Maintaining a sub-fleet of 5 A345 to operate only 2 routes is very expensive. If those 2 routes were not profitable enough SQ would not even bother keeping those 5 aircraft to operate the routes. There are a good few airlines out there that would pay a good amount of money for SQ's A345s to begin with. I have no reason to believe that those 2 non-stop routes do not bring in good money. SQ is just not known for maintaining routes that under perform.
 
ikramerica
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 27):
The forward most cabin that currently has Raffles could carry 8 First Class Seats and everything on back would be Raffles Class.

I can see them doing 9F/84J with the new product if they saw the demand, or 100J otherwise, if they use the new product (which I would assume they'd have to?)

But if they use the older product, then it would be 12F/108J, which is closer to the 120 seats people are mentioning. And if it's all "old" J, then it becomes 132J.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
SQ could operate 787-9s configured with 150 seats on the SIN-LAX/EWR routes. Doing so would bring in about 90% of the revenue of that the A340-500 brings in at about 60% of the operating cost.

But that's 6 years away...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33):
There are a good few airlines out there that would pay a good amount of money for SQ's A345s to begin with.

No, the reason why SQ haven't replaced the A340-500s with 777-200LRs is because the resale value of the former is so poor.
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
But that's 6 years away...

2011 is four years away.
 
sq452
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 28):
That is a pile of bull and this forum is in no way a good source on what SQ routes are profitable or not. The fact is, SQ does not operate unprofitable routes, and they are not one of the most profitable airlines in the World by coincidence. show me an official statement from SQ that says the routes are unprofitable and I'll eat crow.

Like Dutchjet said, they are not going to put out a statement saying one of their routes is not profitable. Their actions and plans beforehand and all the hype before the routes were launched, to what they have done afterwards should give you an indication that they were not a runaway wild success, Dutchjet did a very good job highlighting the clues in his post (see below). Besides this forum, I've talked to pilots who have also told me that the route has profitability issues. It does bring in a considerable amount of revenue and that's been the general consensus in this thread, but it boils down to a profitability issue.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):
SQ does not ""break out"" results for its ULH services so there is no way to know for sure; but consider the following: (1) SQ dropped its options on 5 additional A345s, its very unlike SQ not to exercise each and every option it places for new aircraft, (2) many expected SQ to order the 772LR to replace the A345...nothing against the A345, but wouldn't it make sense for SQ to fly the 772LR as its a large 773ER operator......not only does the 772LR have a lot in common with the 773ER and the other 777 variants flown by SQ, SQ could eliminate an entire fleet type by replacing just 5 airplanes, and (3) speculated ULH routes such SIN-SFO and SIN-ORD never materialized. Such actions (or lack of actions) are clues that SQ is still evaluating the financial case for ULH services.

Great response Dutchjet, you hit the nail on the head I think.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
ikramerica
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
2011 is four years away.

It is not likely SQ would put the 789 on these routes as their first route, since they will have no experience with the type. Just my opinion, but they would likely put them on later should they choose the 789 for the role, or they could choose the 359 instead...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6798
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 35):
No, the reason why SQ haven't replaced the A340-500s with 777-200LRs is because the resale value of the former is so poor.

But some value is still better than operating a non-profitable route don't you think?

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 37):
Like Dutchjet said, they are not going to put out a statement saying one of their routes is not profitable.

Correct, they would just cancel the routes like they've done to so many unprofitable routes that they operated in the past. What better statement is there to say that the route in unprofitable than to cancel it?
I'm not saying these routes are stellar money making machines, I'm simply disagreeing with the statement you made that says "that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable" :

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 18):
Also consider this: the non-stop flights to the U.S. are NOT a money maker for SQ, its widely known on this forum that they lose quit a bit of money on the flight and they are not profitable.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 8):
since it doesn't have the ETOPS restrictions that may make it difficult to fly the 777-200ER in all-Raffles configuration for a non-stop flight

What ETOPS restrictions would these be?
...particularly considering that their 772ERs have flown the LAX-SIN segment nonstop, in scheduled service, several times in the past.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ag92
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 11):
You know I never understood why they didn't put First Class on these planes

Weight Issues

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 17):
rom what I heard, the F product is too heavy for the aircraft to be able to fly those routes non-stop.

 checkmark 

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 31):
Unlike US carriers, SQ provides a J product wich is worth paying extra for. So I dont think that SQ offer upgrades unless the passenger offers cash, but I could be wrong.

SQ only upgrades if Economy class is oversold with spare seats in Business class. And if an upgrade does arise, it takes it from the Life Solitaire Members onwards

Regards
Ag92
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 40):
their 772ERs have flown the LAX-SIN segment nonstop, in scheduled service, several times in the past.

Only eastbound SIN-LAX.

Quoting Ag92 (Reply 41):
SQ only upgrades if Economy class is oversold with spare seats in Business class. And if an upgrade does arise, it takes it from the Life Solitaire Members onwards

And usually stops if there are no PPS or full fare passengers who can be upgraded. At that point, SQ will generally offload Y passengers and leave empty seats in business class.
 
yellowtail
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:15 am

Is it remotely possible for any aircraft configured in a ULH to make it to S. America from SIN....maybe GRU / EZE ...there has got to be some business traffic there......maybe do a stop in SYD and go non-stop from there if the authorities allow  Smile
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
dutchjet
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RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 43):
Is it remotely possible for any aircraft configured in a ULH to make it to S. America from SIN....maybe GRU / EZE ...there has got to be some business traffic there......maybe do a stop in SYD and go non-stop from there if the authorities allow

I dont believe that any airliner currently offered or proposed could do GRU or EZE to SIN nonstop with any type of economic payload......but Emirates must agree with your thinking that that has to be some traffic between South America and cities like Singapore and Bangkok that is worth going after. As you probably know, EK will soon be flying nonstop 772LR flights between GRU and DXB and connections will be available at DXB for many Asian destinations. Rumor has it that EK is also looking at opening a route to EZE.
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:01 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Quoting Karan69 (Reply 4):
Or go with the 359R which will have commonality with the 359 XWBs on order

And be just as big as the a345, which is the whole problem?

The reason for the 788 suggestion was that it would hold 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the J seating a 359 would, but have a lot of cargo space...

Would that have the range of the A350-900R, inc cargo?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 35):
Quoting Airbazar (Reply 33):
There are a good few airlines out there that would pay a good amount of money for SQ's A345s to begin with.

No, the reason why SQ haven't replaced the A340-500s with 777-200LRs is because the resale value of the former is so poor.

Another a.net roumer treated as de facto.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 31):
Also bear in mind that in an A340 the new J is likely to be in a 1-2-1 configuration, versus the current 2-2-2. An immdeate drop of 33% capacity.

From 2-2-2 at 64" pitch to 1-2-1 at 51" pitch is a 16.3% decrease in capacity per square meter. The calculus is more complex though because the new business class seats weigh far less than the SpaceBeds due to fewer motors.
 
CO787EWR
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:10 am

RE: SQ Mulling Business Class-Only To LAX, EWR

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:11 am

Hmmm, I still think they should keep the Y+ seats maybe because I cant afford the Raffles class. I agree that after they get comfortable with the 787-9 they should deploy it on the long haul routes. Problem with that idea is that they said the 787 will be for regional routes.

I think that they should keep Y+ till the next gen ULR planes come around 787-8/9LR-A359R and see if that doesn't make their routes profitable.

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