masseybrown
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CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:34 am

There is a thread in another forum:

http://www.opshots.net/forum/index.php/topic,1421.0.html

that offers a CO email saying that CO has decided against initiating the previously-announced CLE-CDG route in 2008. This will be a huge disappointment to CLE parties; but the economy isn't what it was when CO announced the route almost a year ago. CO has never hesitated to back out of routes whose appeal waned.

They would have to force-feed flow traffic over CLE to make it work and they may not see enough traffic to support CLE as well as their EWR/IAH flights.
 
as739x
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:40 am

Very disappointing if true.They even have it shown in their in-flight magazine.

ASSFO
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lincoln
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:46 am

If it makes you feel any better I got the same email (more or less... I do remember the phrases "decided not to serve" and "continuously evaluating") when I emailed CO asking why I couldn't book a flight to LGB even though it's on their route map (yes, I know it's really served by DL from SLC, but I wanted to stay on CO metal as long as possible.

Lincoln
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fxramper
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:59 am

Seems CO is taking a second look at many of it's destinations served from CLE.  yes 
 
N231YE
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:40 am

That sucks.

Well, considering that CLE and the city bend over a** first for CO (trying to keep CLE a hub for CO), I wonder what will happen?

Despite me being a Clevelander myself, it does seem as quite a disappointment for sure, especially with EWR being a delay haven, CLE-CDG would have been a nice alternative.

And yes...screw PIT   

[Edited 2007-08-06 01:42:04]
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:05 am

Is it possible that DL's likely launch of SLC-CDG which will siphon off some northern tier CDG flows and the AF-DL joint venture is making flights to CDG less appealing for other carriers?
 
fun2fly
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 4):
Despite me being a Clevelander myself, it does seem as quite a disappointment for sure, especially with EWR being a delay haven, CLE-CDG would have been a nice alternative.

Agreed. CDG direct and its connections would be a real plus for CLE. Just this year twice missed EWR connection and had to spend the night in NJ. With a 2 hour block for flight time and 1h/45m connections, hard to believe this happens so regularly. I think the flight would be a smash hit - get across the pond for sure, leave later in the day, not to mention take some pressure off of EWR.

Could this be retaliation for the AF/DL proposed relationship?
 
UN_B732
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:29 am

i was pushing for CLE-AMS, since AMS is a much nicer hub and easier to connect in - but I guess there's not much closeness between CO and KL.

If this is true, a real bummer, I bet they could pack it, even if DL did start SLC-CDG.

-A
What now?
 
flyinryan99
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:37 am

Being an Ohioan, this is definitely very disappointing if they don't start this route. If they don't, maybe it's time to rethink investing as much money as the state wants to invest in CLE for CO. (Note: I didn't say stop funding, just cut down on as much funding) I don't think it's fair to scratch CO's back if they renig what they promise to do.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:41 am

I highly doubt that the DL SLC-CDG flight is the primary reason for CLE-CDG not happening. The two hubs service completely different spoke cities. SLC wasn't stealing much traffic from a potential CLE flight.

A couple of reasons for the change of mind:
1) Aircraft availability - the performance of the CLE-CDG flight is in competition for other routes, and CO is going to place aircraft where it makes the most financial sense. There are other markets that would be farther ahead both for profitability and also for competitive reasons. Its not like anyone else is gong to step in and start a CLE-CDG flight. By delaying it for a year or two means very little in the grand scheme of things.

2) CO's falling out with Skyteam:
Right now CO appears to be the odd man out in regards to their Skyteam relationship. NW-KLM have been long time bed buddies, and DL-AF have been too for a while. With the pending anti-trust amendment for NW, DL, KLM, AF one has to wonder where CO stands since they were not a part of the proposal. NW-CO have been codeshare partners for a long time, but there appears to be a growing rift between CO-AF. Also remember that now CO & DL are direct competitors in the NYC market.
 
rwsea
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:41 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Is it possible that DL's likely launch of SLC-CDG which will siphon off some northern tier CDG flows and the AF-DL joint venture is making flights to CDG less appealing for other carriers?

No. CO's reach to the Western US is very limited from CLE, and the vast majority of those cities that are served from CLE already have nonstops to CDG of their own.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 10):
No. CO's reach to the Western US is very limited from CLE, and the vast majority of those cities that are served from CLE already have nonstops to CDG of their own

Indeed Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles have nonstop service to CDG via Air France..

The only other Western markets for Continental Airlines from Cleveland are Las Vegas, Denver, San Diego, and Phoenix. Of which Las Vegas has nonstop service on Virgin Atlantic, British Midland, Condor, BelAir, MyTravel,and MaxJet to Europe. Denver has nonstop service on British Airways and Lufthansa to Europe. Phoenix has British Airways to London. The only one left out is San Diego, however as can be seen even San Diego may be going Europe via Lufthansa in the next few years.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
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STT757
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
2) CO's falling out with Skyteam:
Right now CO appears to be the odd man out in regards to their Skyteam relationship. NW-KLM have been long time bed buddies, and DL-AF have been too for a while. With the pending anti-trust amendment for NW, DL, KLM, AF one has to wonder where CO stands since they were not a part of the proposal. NW-CO have been codeshare partners for a long time, but there appears to be a growing rift between CO-AF. Also remember that now CO & DL are direct competitors in the NYC market

I concur, I can see CO making a move to Star. That does not necessarily need a CO/UAL merger to facilitate the move, however Star brings more to CO than Sky Team, and CO brings more to Star than US. Star has more flights out of EWR than JFK, connecting those flights to CO's EWR hub adds revenue to both parties.

All speculation of course.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Is it possible that DL's likely launch of SLC-CDG which will siphon off some northern tier CDG flows and the AF-DL joint venture is making flights to CDG less appealing for other carriers?

Dream on! Maybe DL should rethink their ATL-PEK application due to CO's EWR-PEK service.

If traffic can't support daily CLE-CDG, CO should split the aircraft utilization to 4 per week CLE-CDG and CLE-AMS. The eighth frequency could be allowed with X6 flights in other markets. The result would be something like eastbound
CLE-CDG days 1356 and CLE-AMS days 2467. Serving 3 transatlantic markets would be noticed more than one or two markets. There would be little cost of adding a 752 at CDG and AMS as they already have several operations to EWR and IAH.

CO should consider using the same philosophy in the off season on CLE-LGW. If all three markets (LGW, CDG,AMS) operated 3 days per week, it could be done with little more than one aircraft, utilizing Sat and Sun noops to provide the 8th and 9th weekly frequency. Something like CLE-AMS on 146, CLE-LGW on 257 and CLE-CDG on 367, with the most weekend peak market having the 367 operation.
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:45 pm

Anyway to post a snippit of the link in the thread-starter? Not a member. Thanks.
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102IAHexpress
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
2) CO's falling out with Skyteam:
Right now CO appears to be the odd man out in regards to their Skyteam relationship. NW-KLM have been long time bed buddies, and DL-AF have been too for a while. With the pending anti-trust amendment for NW, DL, KLM, AF one has to wonder where CO stands since they were not a part of the proposal. NW-CO have been codeshare partners for a long time, but there appears to be a growing rift between CO-AF. Also remember that now CO & DL are direct competitors in the NYC market.

Not sure what that has to do with CLE.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Thread starter):
They would have to force-feed flow traffic over CLE to make it work and they may not see enough traffic to support CLE as well as their EWR/IAH flights.

I always thought the best way for CO to expand CLE beyond reliever status, was by adding some Canadian destinations. Perhaps not as exciting as transatlantic routes, but maybe a bit more doable.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:21 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Anyway to post a snippit of the link in the thread-starter? Not a member. Thanks.

The poster received the following email in response to his query about booking a CLE-CDG trip next year.

Dear Sir

Thank you for contacting Continental Airlines.

We have decided not to operate the nonstop flight to Paris next year.

Continental is constantly monitoring our routes and schedules to provide the best service for our passengers. Your comments will be shared with the appropriate departments and our Senior Management.

We appreciate you taking the time to let us know how we can better serve you.

Regards,


Darryl Johnson
Continental Airlines


I'm surprised you aren't a member of that board, Falcon. You probably know some of the people on it.
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 16):
I'm surprised you aren't a member of that board, Falcon.

I just joined.  Big grin

I haven't heard a peep about it at work, and as Rampkontroller, whom I do know, said on Opshots, it's a bit surprising.

However, CLE-LGW is already in the computer for next spring. CLE-CDG is not. May not mean anything, but maybe it does.

I'm putting my own feelers out, too, right now, limited though they are.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
cle757
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:33 pm

Wow, this is the first I've heard of this. It sure seems like Continental is moving forward with the CLE expansion, I havent heard anything about not running CDG next year.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
rampkontroler
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:59 pm

Hi Guys- Yes, it would be a blow indeed to lose this service. As of yet, I haven't been able to get any more information, and I am off the next two days, so Falcon may find out something before I do.

I just wish we could get something exciting going here...and being a reliever for EWR is one of them. If I am ever traveling through EWR, I always make sure to get there the day BEFORE my connecting flight. Every day without fail, we get hit with ATC ground stops and flow programs to the east coast and hardly anything leaves when its supposed to. I would never plan a connecting flight through EWR on the same day that I am trying to get there!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 15):
Not sure what that has to do with CLE.

It has a lot to do, as a CLE-CDG flight would require a significant amount of connecting traffic on both ends - CO in CLE and AF in CDG. Considering that many of these destinations can be served entirely on CO metal via a connection in EWR, does it make sense to route double connections over CLE - no.
 
cle757
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:25 pm

I think this flight will do very well, alot of people hate going to New York (EWR or JFK) due to ATC delays everyday. At least in CLE you dont have to wait 2hrs just to get off the ground.
Cleveland the best location in the Nation
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
1) Aircraft availability - the performance of the CLE-CDG flight is in competition for other routes, and CO is going to place aircraft where it makes the most financial sense. There are other markets that would be farther ahead both for profitability and also for competitive reasons. Its not like anyone else is gong to step in and start a CLE-CDG flight. By delaying it for a year or two means very little in the grand scheme of things.

Bingo!

I think CO is realizing that the plane that will fly CLE-CDG could simply be used more effectively on a different route. CLE-CDG might do fine, but there are plent of opportunities from EWR that will probably do even better. It's been said before and I'll say it again, given a limited number of aircraft, airlines have to optimize their utilization.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
I think CO is realizing that the plane that will fly CLE-CDG could simply be used more effectively on a different route. CLE-CDG might do fine, but there are plent of opportunities from EWR that will probably do even better. It's been said before and I'll say it again, given a limited number of aircraft, airlines have to optimize their utilization.

What ever happened to the:

EWR-CMN, EWR-AGP, and EWR-SVQ rumors?

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:19 am

Thanks, CAL. Continued commitment to CLE duly noted. (Puh!)
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UN_B732
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:23 am

So much for a huge committment to Cleveland. TOo bad, I remember how much fanfare there was about this route when it was first announced.
-A
What now?
 
lincoln
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 23):



Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 25):

Do we have an actual confirmation that the route has been nixed from anyone other than the email referenced in the original post? Given that those who work for CO @ CLE seem somewhat suprised and my experience with the accuracy (or lack thereof) when it comes to CO's email responses to route questions I think it may be a bit early to pronounce the route dead.

I think there's still plenty of time for it to be loaded.

It is shown on the August 2007 version of the International Route Map as future service:
http://www.continental.com/web/en-US.../travel/routes/co-world_200708.pdf

I just sent an email to Continental Corporate Communications -- it's unlikely I'll get a response, but I figure if anyone has the "right" answer it's probably them.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 24):
Thanks, CAL. Continued commitment to CLE duly noted. (Puh!)



Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 25):
So much for a huge committment to Cleveland. TOo bad, I remember how much fanfare there was about this route when it was first announced.

Keep your shorts on dudes! It's not even confirmed!
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Keep your shorts on dudes! It's not even confirmed!

I know, but it'd just be so typical. CLE gets shafted constantly. I still hope it's not true and it goes ahead, naturally.
This Website Censors Me
 
lincoln
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:27 am

Update... as I said...

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 26):
I just sent an email to Continental Corporate Communications

I just got a response from Continental, the response in its entirety (excluding the person's name):

Quote:
We plan to start nonstop Cleveland to Paris in 2008. The service will be loaded into computer systems this fall. Details as to flight times and numbers will be announced as soon as they are finalized.

[Name]
Public Relations
Continental Airlines
[Phone Number]

I hope that will settle everyone down a little! Big grin

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:49 am

As with anything in this business, wait until you see the first flight at the gate in CLE departing for CDG.

With now two conflicting pieces of information, it is very possible one department at CO knows something the other department does not. It is also very possible that the response received to that other person's inquiry was to a question that was misinterpreted. Typically cancellations of routes that have never started, let alone loaded aren't exactly broadcast to the world.

International flights are typically loaded 6 months in advance. If there is nothing in the system by Nov/Dec, then I would start to get concerned.

There have been way too many cases of all airlines pulling the plug on routes months/weeks/days in advance of when they were supposed to launch.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 30):
As with anything in this business, wait until you see the first flight at the gate in CLE departing for CDG

Good point.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 29):
I just got a response from Continental, the response in its entirety (excluding the person's name):

Quote:
We plan to start nonstop Cleveland to Paris in 2008. The service will be loaded into computer systems this fall. Details as to flight times and numbers will be announced as soon as they are finalized.

[Name]
Public Relations
Continental Airlines
[Phone Number]

I hope that will settle everyone down a little!

Good news, I never heard anything to suggest that CLE-CDG is not going forward.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 23):
EWR-CMN, EWR-AGP, and EWR-SVQ rumors?

CO did apply for Malaga and Palma......much to the surprise of many people. A route to/from Malaga could be interesting (IB flew JFK-Malaga years ago) but I am sure that there would be a yield issue with the service, not to mention that it would probably only work in the summer (and CO generally is not interested in seasonal TATL services). Re Palma, its a total mystery as the destination is of little interest to most US pax....some guessed that the flights to/from both Malaga and Palma had to do with a potential cruise program. In any case, nothing has happened. As for CMN and SVQ, I am not sure that anyone other than a.net members ever thought that CO was considering service to these destination.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Is it possible that DL's likely launch of SLC-CDG which will siphon off some northern tier CDG flows and the AF-DL joint venture is making flights to CDG less appealing for other carriers?

Now thats funny.......you really do think that the entire airline industry worldwide makes each and every decision based upon what Delta may or may not do. Whatever CO does regarding CLE-CDG, we can be rather sure that CO's actions will have nothing to do with DL laucnhing a flight out of SLC.
 
CALMSP
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:57 am

i would love to see us operate EWR-CMN............seems like a typical destination for us, small, unheard of in terms of trans-atlantic service. Does Royal Air Maroc run 7x a week?
 
N231YE
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 29):
I hope that will settle everyone down a little! 

Is that a good thing or is that a bad thing?
 
MAH4546
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:05 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 32):
i would love to see us operate EWR-CMN............seems like a typical destination for us, small, unheard of in terms of trans-atlantic service. Does Royal Air Maroc run 7x a week?

RAM is 9x weekly to JFK and 10x weekly to YUL.
a.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Is it possible that DL's likely launch of SLC-CDG which will siphon off some northern tier CDG flows and the AF-DL joint venture is making flights to CDG less appealing for other carriers?

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Youve got to be kidding right? The sun doesnt rise and set with DL. Thats like saying DL shouldnt fly to PVG because UA and AA already fly there and its isnt as appealing.
It is what it is...
 
Falcon84
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 29):

Yudaman Lincoln!  bigthumbsup 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 31):
Now thats funny.......you really do think that the entire airline industry worldwide makes each and every decision based upon what Delta may or may not do. Whatever CO does regarding CLE-CDG, we can be rather sure that CO's actions will have nothing to do with DL launching a flight out of SLC.

 checkmark  SLC will serve an O&D and connections in an entirely different part of the country. The last I checked CLE is in the Eastern Time Zone, and SLC in the Mountain Time Zone. It will be interesting to see however if any proposed CLE-CDG flight on CO lines up time wise with Delta's MD-90 flight from SLC-CLE and see if this in fact a viable SkyTeam option.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
rampkontroler
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 29):
I just got a response from Continental, the response in its entirety (excluding the person's name):

Quote:
We plan to start nonstop Cleveland to Paris in 2008. The service will be loaded into computer systems this fall. Details as to flight times and numbers will be announced as soon as they are finalized.

[Name]
Public Relations
Continental Airlines
[Phone Number]

Thanks Lincoln! That sounds more like it!  Smile
 
ncflyer
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:13 am

The State of Ohio is packaging a nice incentive package for CO to expand, they've been slowly bundling some features together, tax breaks, constructions assistance, and so forth. A local radio program (WKSU) on the airport implied that a major announcement was very very close. If I had to guess, it would be the CO terminal expansion to include FIS, D connector, better meet and greet area outside security. Cancelling CDG wouldn't fit in too well with that?
 
CALMSP
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 16):

I wouldn't take this guy's word for anything. Not to slam him or anything, but being a res agent, I think there are more knowlegeable personnel in the company (and in this forum) that might have more accurate information.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE-CDG Up In The Air?

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 29):
I hope that will settle everyone down a little! Big grin

Sorry for the false alarm. I've been in Washington too long.

Actually, I was getting to like PSU.DTW.SCE's Skyteam conspiracy theory.  Big grin

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