BlueSkys
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Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:14 pm

Now... I writing this as a commercial (just recived very recently) pilot with just over 250 hours which is really nothing. I am not a pilot for profit nor will i ever be for any airline. The reason why is that us pilots are taken advantage of because we actually LOVE our job.

I know guys that have over 1500 hours and cant get a good job any where at the age of close to 30 or older and have been doing this since an early age. They have all the qualifications but there is just not enough jobs! The problem with pilots is that they are willing to work for PEANUTS just to get the oppertunity to fly!

After seeing many a man take crappy job after crappy job just to support their family and try to make a living in the industry i made a desicion that i will not persue it anymore and make my money elsewhere. Now i make a good living and I am hoping to buy my own airplanes some day soon but i feel very sorry for they MANY men and women that cannot get anywhere in the industry no matter how hard they try.

Will this ever change? Airlines used to recruit pilots, now they just pick and choose, and becoming a professional pilot that can make a GOOD living (over $100,000) before the old age of 40 + is very difficult...

Will the industry ever come to appreciate the proffessionals of dedicated men and women that dedicated their own lives to a passion that has become a gamble to make a decent living with?

I have just seen so many young men and women that have invested many thousands of dollars of hard earned money that most likely will never be paid back by the industry..


I know this sounds like a rant but i feel sorry for so many people that have never had a chanve to reach their goals in life due to the circumstances of the industry.
 
Transpac787
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:36 pm

Interesting choice of title.......

Pay will go up again eventually, probably never back to what it used to be though. Before 9/11, a NWA 747-400 captain made $272/hr. Now, according to (www.airlinepilotcentral.com) they make $177/hr. At UA, a 747-400 captain makes $184/hr, where they used to make just slightly over $300/hr

Of course, pilots are some of the highest paid wage-employees in the world, but when you're limited to 1000 hours per year, it isn't all that much compared what it could/should be.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:40 pm

And let's not forget the endless hours pilots spend doing going to and from the airport, flight prep, preflights, airport ground holds, and other delays that add time to the job, all while not being paid!
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
Max Q
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:48 pm

Well, its always been this way Blue Skys.

It's a hell of a tough business to break into at the highest levels, granted we are in a down cycle at the moment but that will change again as well.

I understand your declining to pursue it any further but I think thats a shame if being a professional pilot is, or was you goal.

Relentless determination and persistence will get you there you know.

I think giving up at 250 hours total time is extremely premature.

Your learning has just begun at that point.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:46 pm

Pay scales will always go up and down, right now the fuel prices are killing airlines, when something like hydrogen becomes available for planes we could see airlines making a ton of money with cheap fuel and the unions wont let the airlines forget that they need more money, we need to see the US govt pull their heads out of the sand and find new fuels, and Boeing should begin investigations on how to convert current planes to accept fuels like hydrogen along with general electric and rolls Royce, when fuel becomes cheap (and it will someday) airlines will make more money so pilots will also male more
 
SergioAEE
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:33 pm

This is a very narrow topic and one must ALWAYS think of both sides when some other pilot tells them that they can't find a job. I know pilots with many hours, and good experience who fly for close to nothing and for a hopeless airline, and I also know pilots who have 500 hours, and fly for some really good European or US carriers. I've also heard from many pilots saying "god i cant find a job anywhere" and at the say period of time I hear others saying "i didnt think it would be that easy". Some pilots limit their options. Not wanting to leave your home country is always a problem. I dont have much knowledge of the industry in the US because I live in Europe, but I can tell you that in EU right now, things are looking good for pilots.

However, if you are a young pilot you cannot expect to get hired by a traditional carrier and start flying big aircraft for big money... you always gotta start somewhere  Smile
My point is: Listen to what other pilots say, but every pilot has their own little story... dont generalise  Smile

SergioAEE
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:19 pm

It seems forever, pilots at the beginning of their career have made crap wages...in N.America. Overseas, the prospects are much brighter. Look at all the expansion taking place, especially in Asia and the M.E.

If a pilot is willing to relocate across the world, the sky's the limit.
What the...?
 
dazbo5
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:29 pm

That's life I'm afraid. This isn't exclusive to the airline industry, it's pretty much in all walks of life. The main difference being the cost in timeframe of training, but there are comparable jobs out there. I've hit the ceiling in my carear path after only 9 years in post. When I say hit the ceiling, I don't meen I've progressed to the very top, I mean within the company I work for and there is no prospect of extra earnings. I either put up with it, change jobs to progress in the company or go elsewhere. Same with the airline industry. That's the current market place so if that's your choice of career and what you love / want to do, you make your choice.

Darren
Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
 
SergioAEE
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:36 pm

Id love to hear opinions from pilots on this forum! I mean some LCC's in europe have had hiring statusses for years and years running now, and give pretty good wages, and pilots in these airlines can become captain relatively fast.

I guess it really does depend on the situation

SergioAEE
 
ORDfan
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 6):
It seems forever, pilots at the beginning of their career have made crap wages...in N.America. Overseas, the prospects are much brighter. Look at all the expansion taking place, especially in Asia and the M.E.

If a pilot is willing to relocate across the world, the sky's the limit.

Exactly. Remember the thread about the EK pilot shortage. There are lots of airlines around the world that are very eager to recruit bright, qualified Western pilots. These pilots can hop into the latest and greatest widebodys, without having to wait half a lifetime like those flying for the legacies. And they can earn a damn good living, too, even in the junior ranks.

It's a matter of supply and demand. Northwest is complaining of a pilot shortage, and now so are UA. The more these airlines will need pilots, the more they will raise wages to attract new pilots until there is some sort of equilibrium. I am actually shocked that more Western pilots are not as "mobile" a labor force as engineers, businessmen, and other types of professionals. If I were a young pilot or trainee today, I would definitely set my sights on flying for an overseas carrier. To think of all the awesome airports recently built, being built, or planned in the M.E. or Asia, how can one not be excited by the prospect of flying there??
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:23 pm

Well there are new oppertunities now there never used to be. My school and a lot of my friends is actually a pilot sponsorship which will allow me to have my license done in two years with 250 hrs and training on most likely a 757 or 737 and an airline job as well... The industry is always changing and new things are coming out. These sponsorships are big in Europe especially the UK but now it is my understanding that they are moving to Canada. AC is experimenting with taking students with similar hrs out of a diploma program.

My starting wage will depend on which airline i get with but typically start at anywhere between 27000 and 33000 pounds a year, roughly 60-70000 dollars a year as an fo with 250-300 hrs. Then it moves up from there. There's lots of avenues to look to!
 
blueskies8
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:26 pm

The airline industry is definately not what it used to be whereas the fractional, corporate and charter market has become quite lucrative. This commercial aviation industry is very cyclic and with the current number of student pilots still very low or on the decline there will be a shortage of pilots again in the near future. Many of the major U.S. airlines are going to retire nearly half of there workforce in the next 10 years leaving a huge void. Pilots will flock to the airlines and the business aviation sector will be looking for more pilots, although the business aviation sector seems to always be looking for pilots. It is up to us pilots not to settle for less than we're worth and when the industry needs pilots we need to make sure that we are compensated appropriately as professionals. There is light at the end of the tunnel and if you truly love flying then you should stick with it because it's not only the citizens and the economy that need you but we as fellow pilots need you.
 
planespotting
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
After seeing many a man take crappy job after crappy job just to support their family and try to make a living in the industry i made a desicion that i will not persue it anymore and make my money elsewhere. Now i make a good living and I am hoping to buy my own airplanes some day soon but i feel very sorry for they MANY men and women that cannot get anywhere in the industry no matter how hard they try.

I made the same decision about three years ago. It's worked out pretty well for me so far - I went to graduate school, met a girl I'll likely be marrying in the next year or two, got a damned good job in a city I've wanted to live in forever with a company that treats me very well and pays me what I'm worth.

Does that mean I don't regret not pursuing an airline job? Of course not - I half-regret it every time I look up and see an RJ departing or approaching to land at ORD, knowing that if I would have chosen to stick with it back in 2004 when I made the decision, that could very well be me up there.

But then I think about my salary, and how if I were at a regional I would have to be a Captain before I would be making as much as I do now, and about the girl I met going to graduate school, and about all the really great times I had not doing the airline thing. But...still, there's a slight emptiness...and I get a lil sad whenever my airline buddies come around to stay with me if they want to come to Chicago, but it's fun to hear their stories and chat with them, and I can still fly many airplanes and some day I'll be able to buy my own airplane (maybe!).

But I still think about it...and it's likely that one day I will jump headlong back into the airline game (I was in it once, serving an internship with Southwest), but for right now - I'm fairly happy with the present, and things are going pretty well for me (not entirely on my own account - I've had plenty of luck along the way).

And that's just fine I think.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
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longhauler
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:05 pm

Right now, Air Canada is hiring pilots at a maximum rate the training centre will allow. 16 pilots every 14 days. This will continue into the foreseeable future, as long as retirement age is 60.

As a result, if you so desire, one can be an EMJ Captain within 18 to 24 months of being hired. The lowest paid EMJ Captain at AC makes over $100,000 / yr. Not a bad wage. Not the greatest, but with seniority, it gets better.

About 25% of Air Canada's new hire pilots are less than 30 years old.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
727forever
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 10):
Well there are new oppertunities now there never used to be. My school and a lot of my friends is actually a pilot sponsorship which will allow me to have my license done in two years with 250 hrs and training on most likely a 757 or 737 and an airline job as well... The industry is always changing and new things are coming out. These sponsorships are big in Europe especially the UK but now it is my understanding that they are moving to Canada. AC is experimenting with taking students with similar hrs out of a diploma program.

Ah yes, the MPL program. This is an interesting development indeed. Zero time to the cockpit with 240 hours of sim training and ten hours in an airplane. Have fun talking on the radio because that's about all the Captains will be letting you do as an MPL pilot.


The industry does suck. I agree with the statements of most above. You have to love what you do to stick to it long enough to make it to the top. I've been in over 10 years, have been furloughed once, been through a Chapter 7 (liquidation) bankrupsy, and am once again back on year one pay. I'm hoping to be able to make my mortgage payment, car payment, crashpad payment, and keep my credit card bills down while making maybe make $45,000 this year. I knew what I was getting into. I'm not happy about it but I am keeping my nose to the grind and I will start gaining ground again at some point. That's the business. If you can't handle it, stay out.

727forever
727forever
 
scrumpy492003
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:15 pm

India was advertising / had an article about the lack of pilots a month or two back in The Canadian newspaper!! New start hours were VERY low. - You have to start somewhere. The starting requirements were either a UK Licence or US Licence.
( International routes) so you can eat "normal food" - no disrespect intended anybody!!

Some say that the Instruction route is the way to build hours, others think that Instructor hours mean s**t.

Your decision.

There are many jobs in Africa and Indonesia for instance, BUT of course you take your chances with the company, the area and the living conditions / pay.

I built hours with Traffic watch, in CYYC, 17 years ago, with a C172 C-GSEX, and many a joke was made of that!!
My passenger was Captain Kirk!! - still going, in a Robinson Helicopter now.

Good Luck.
Peter
peter b95 c-ghfu
 
EMB195
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:16 pm

Well fellow a.neters, I am 21 and I am going through exactly what some of you have gone through when you were my age. Trying to decide if I want to pursue a career as an airline pilot. Sometimes I think I should just get into the medical field. I mean I think about how it would be like to have a family as an airline pilot, I've heard so many things about it, good and bad. So many times I go through all the university's majors, to see if something interests me, and nothing... I always get to the end of the list and I can never find something. And every time I drive by the airport I can't help it but think about flying. So I've pretty much decided I should just pursue a career as a pilot. I'll probably get a bachelors on something else though just in case.

So hopefully wages will get better someday. I am also from Brazil, and I read on the news that Brazil might possibly be short of airline pilots in a few years. Though I don't know how much pilots get paid there.
 
blueskies8
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:23 pm

Quoting 727forever (Reply 14):
Zero time to the cockpit with 240 hours of sim training and ten hours in an airplane. Have fun talking on the radio because that's about all the Captains will be letting you do as an MPL pilot.

This is interesting and I find it surprising that it is happening in Europe and potentially Canada as well. If you've got a pilot with that little time sitting in the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus then the Captains should be getting $200+/hr as it is going to be a lot more work for them. Not to say that all low time pilots are not going to cut it but from my experience and that of others that I know it is for the most part a lot more work for the Captain. However, this is exactly what the airline executives want, low time pilots that will jump at the opportunity to fly a Boeing regardless of the hourly rate. To fly for a living you have to love it but don't make it charity work.
 
blueskies8
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 16):
Trying to decide if I want to pursue a career as an airline pilot.

There are a lot of other lucrative flying jobs other than the airlines. I know corporate pilots making $300,000. You won't start there but it is something to look forward to.
 
squakin1200
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:43 pm

I hear what you are saying BLUESKY, at 2000 hours I've kind of written off the airlines for now. I am lucky enough to work for a company that owns an Airplane, so half of my job is flying the boss around. Works out pretty well and keeps me flying.
As others have mentioned, going international seems to be the ticket. Many countries in south america and others in asia have a huge demand and not enough pilots. That means they pay much better than US jobs. You have to be willing to move though. Just the other day I got a call from a buddy in Asia, he said "If you ever wanna come down here, you can right seat in an A320 no problem, my average co-pilot has 500 hours Total time". I imagine the opportunity to upgrade is very good there.
 
EMB195
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting Blueskies8 (Reply 18):
I know corporate pilots making $300,000. You won't start there but it is something to look forward to.

Very true. I was just talking to a guy yesterday at a flight school who flies corporate. The only problem I see with that is that the airlines will give you a more fixed schedule. That is when you have the seniority of course. I mean corporate can be good because sometimes you will have lots of free time. But it can also be the other way around. So I just figured the airlines would fit me better. However corporate will always be an option of course. Now, the regionals are in a huge demand for pilots aren't they?
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting 727forever (Reply 14):
Ah yes, the MPL program. This is an interesting development indeed. Zero time to the cockpit with 240 hours of sim training and ten hours in an airplane. Have fun talking on the radio because that's about all the Captains will be letting you do as an MPL pilot

Not true actually... A good friend of mine who finished the program with about 4 years ago has a tonne of PIC time. We are guarunteed a certain amount of PIC time once done. And you don't really have a good idea of the program. Most of our time is in a DA42 and then either 6 months training on 737 or 757's which are the most likely aircraft we will be flying. So 10 hours of aircraft and 240 of sim is a little out there bud...
 
blueskies8
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 20):
The only problem I see with that is that the airlines will give you a more fixed schedule.

That can be a problem but overall a corporate pilot has more time off. There are rarely pop-up trips in the corporate world as opposed to the charter world but you are on reserve more often, but at home!

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 20):
Now, the regionals are in a huge demand for pilots aren't they?

Yes they are and so are companies like Netjets, Flexjet etc. There are a lot of options out there so be patient and go for what you want. Best of luck to you.
 
leftwing
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:14 am

if you get your self 737NG or 320 rated with 2000 hrs you can land a job within weeks in Asia.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:42 am

I'm not a pilot but see Asian jobs opening up all the time. Take the opportunity and you never know where you could land.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:57 am

I find most North American young people have a sense of "entitlement" and are not willing to work hard for a good job. They just "expect" it, or give up early, if it doesn't happen.

Because I fly the EMJ at AC, I get the opportunity to fly with young new-hires, and I am genuinely impressed. They have worked hard to get the job, and are willing to continue to work hard after being hired. They didn't expect that the job would land in their laps, they ran after it.

Some worked at regionals, some worked in the arctic, some worked corporate, etc, bottom line is they wanted the job enough, to risk working hard to get it. No, the job is not guaranteed if you work hard ... but it is guaranteed that if you DON'T work hard for it, you wont get it.

The result.... after 12 months, they will be offered left seat of the EMJ, paid over $100,000/yr, and guaranteed 15 days off a month .. and some aren't even 30 years old yet!

So ... if you want it, it's there. But you have to work for it.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
silentbob
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 4):
when something like hydrogen becomes available for planes we could see airlines making a ton of money with cheap fuel and the unions wont let the airlines forget that they need more money,

The unions will be expecting it long before then.

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 20):
Now, the regionals are in a huge demand for pilots aren't they?

As long as you don't mind moving, you should be able to get hired within a couple days if you're really trying.
 
727forever
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 21):
Not true actually... A good friend of mine who finished the program with about 4 years ago has a tonne of PIC time. We are guarunteed a certain amount of PIC time once done. And you don't really have a good idea of the program. Most of our time is in a DA42 and then either 6 months training on 737 or 757's which are the most likely aircraft we will be flying. So 10 hours of aircraft and 240 of sim is a little out there bud...

You were in the conventional "ab-initio" program. If you read what I was referring to it is the MPL, Multi-Crew Pilot License. ICAO approved this license last year and Transport Canada gave it the big rubber stamp. The ICAO program requires only 10 hours in the actual airplane the newly mented "pilot" is ready to start IOE. Do a little research and you'll find info on what I am talking about. I have provided a link to an article published in Air Transport World on MPL.

727forever

http://www.atwonline.com/channels/sa...curity/article.html?articleID=1428
727forever
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 25):

So ... if you want it, it's there. But you have to work for it.

Bingo!

The regionals in the US can't find enough pilots. Many of them are canceling flights because they don't have enough crews to fly their own schedules.

My airline is in the same boat, however, we aren't canceling flights because the FO's that are left are filling the void. By the time we hire and train enough people till fill the current open slots, we already have more openings to fill.

Those who say they can't find a job just are not looking, they are everywhere right now. Unfortunately, it might require you to move or take a pay cut. You want the perfect job, its going to be a long wait. The market right now is perfect for someone starting out.

I honestly have no patience for pilots who say they can't find a job because they are everywhere right now, you just have to be a little bit flexible and be willing to go outside your comfort zone.

Quoting EMB195 (Reply 16):
Sometimes I think I should just get into the medical field.

EMB,

Climbing both the pilot ladder and the doctor ladder are just as hard. Both start with long hours at low pay. Both require a large upfront investment that may or may not work out.

Don't do either for the money or the prestige, they don't help get you up in the morning. Do it because you like it. THAT is what will get you through the crappy days that just don't seem to end and will get you out of bed the next morning ready for more.

Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting 727forever (Reply 28):
You were in the conventional "ab-initio" program. If you read what I was referring to it is the MPL, Multi-Crew Pilot License. ICAO approved this license last year and Transport Canada gave it the big rubber stamp. The ICAO program requires only 10 hours in the actual airplane the newly mented "pilot" is ready to start IOE. Do a little research and you'll find info on what I am talking about. I have provided a link to an article published in Air Transport World on MPL.

Sorry bout the misunderstanding. Your sentance started with ahh the old... So I assumed from that since it was the program I brought up that you were implying me. Sorry bout that mate!

Cheers!
 
WindowSeat
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:32 pm

Unfortunately, I have no sympathy for pilots who claim there are no jobs left for them. This industry is no different than any other. If you want a job, work for it. Go to Asia, move around, try other avenues. If you wait for your favourite airline to start hiring left seats, then you'll be waiting forever.

Sorry, but that's how the world works. Just because you love your job, doesn't mean you are entitled to one, and that too a high paying one. Take a number and wait in line. Or do something else. Plain and simple.

cheers
WindowSeat
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 31):
Sorry, but that's how the world works. Just because you love your job, doesn't mean you are entitled to one, and that too a high paying one. Take a number and wait in line. Or do something else. Plain and simple.

What I find curious is that the OP is from "downtown Toronto". That is within spitting distance of Air Canada's largest pilot base, and where the fastest internal growth is found. And ... Air Canada is experiencing pilot hiring, never before seen in its history!

This has a "trickle down" effect that means even in the lowest entry level flying jobs in Canada, there are openings. In all of my years of flying in Canada, I have never seen such opportunities.

However ... the job will not just be handed to him. He actually has to work for it, just like everyone else being hired. And, that means, going onto AC's website and seeing what is required for consideration, and simply going for it. Be it education levels or flying experience.

He is lucky, he is young and has the time. That may mean having to relocate for a few years, having to go to school, possibly even learning French (LOL). There are lean years, yes. You may have to drive a 15 year old car, or eat a lot of Kraft Dinner ... this is the price of experience and the rules of engagement. But, as I said before, if it is what you desire, then the opportunity is there.

If however, the above "hardships" are too much, then yes, you are right, flying is not for you.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
BlueSkys
Topic Author
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 32):
If however, the above "hardships" are too much, then yes, you are right, flying is not for you.

Flying is definately for me, I just decided that if I can make close to the money of a senior captain @ AC b/f the age of 25 why on earth would I struggle? I will be buying my first airplane soon and I will be able to fly when I wish! I might even start a charter company, who knows? The Point is I decided to go into business for myself because

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 32):
"hardships"

are not for me if I can avoid them that will make me happy.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 32):
You may have to drive a 15 year old car

does not sound to appealing to me. Maybe a 67' Mustang Fastback but definately not an old Taurus!

I just meant in the thread that I have seen many deserving pilots not get hired, and they do not want to do anything else but fly for an airline. I have seen 2 instructors in my school apply for the same job, one is a guy over 30 with over 2000 hours, one a hot lil' young girl with 500 hours or so. Guess who got the job? Not the guy....  Confused

I know there is jobs but it is easy to say for you guys with the airline jobs to say that people just dont want it bad enough, or dont work hard enough for it b/c they do!


It seems to be a very selective process. Some get there easy some cant seem to get there. I have seen both sides of the spectrum.

One more thing.... ****Not everyone can move away or over seas to get a job!!!! There are familys and children and other circimstances that can make it impossible for someone to do that****


Cheers!
 
BlueSkys
Topic Author
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:43 pm

LongHauler:
One of my clients girlfriends, last i spoke to them was flying E-190's for AC, was about to be transfered for Widebody training.. She is 27, maybe 28 now.... How hard must have she worked to advance that quick?
Do you think it is fair? or b/c she is female perhaps?

Please draw your own conclusion.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:29 am

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 31):
Sorry, but that's how the world works. Just because you love your job, doesn't mean you are entitled to one

Words to live by Smile
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 4950
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 34):
LongHauler:
One of my clients girlfriends, last i spoke to them was flying E-190's for AC, was about to be transfered for Widebody training.. She is 27, maybe 28 now.... How hard must have she worked to advance that quick?
Do you think it is fair? or b/c she is female perhaps?

Please draw your own conclusion.

I have a pretty good idea who you are talking about, and she is a very capable pilot. She opted for bottom B767 F/O ... not a great job, but at her age, she'll have a blast. And I mean BOTTOM, not one pilot junior to her on the B767 F/O list!

But, remember, AC did at one time hire pilots right into the B767 right seat. She got the job because no one senior to her bid the position, of course. And, for the record, the number one B767 F/O has almost 30 years seniority!

She'll be on reserve for a very long time, she is aware of that, and she can't wait to get on the aircraft.

As to whether that is fair, it is the seniority system. If she didn't have the seniority, she wouldn't achieve the position on the equipment bid. The seniority system is not gender specific. But as I have said above, Air Canada is experiencing a very large influx of new hires due to slight expansion, and a LOT of retirements. Its a good time to be in the business in Canada.

I am not sure if you are intimating this, but Air Canada does not hire by gender, race or region of origin. When Air Canada was a government owned airline, they did! The last time was in the mid 1980s, and ended when Air Canada began to become a privately held airline toward the end of the 1980s.

So, she was hired on her merits, as are all new hires. As the new hires are computer stacked in order, no human has intervention. Is it fair? It sure appears so!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 33):
Flying is definately for me, I just decided that if I can make close to the money of a senior captain @ AC b/f the age of 25 why on earth would I struggle? I will be buying my first airplane soon and I will be able to fly when I wish! I might even start a charter company, who knows? The Point is I decided to go into business for myself

I did much the same thing 25 years ago! I did start my own Charter company, and I did make a great deal of money. However, any position that allows that, also requires a great deal of attention and time. I found that when I was hired by an airline, I now worked in a month, what I used to work in a week!

But, I don't turn my back on my background. I am an EMJ Captain, even though I can hold B767 Captain. I do this, because of the money I made when I was your age, so its not a bad thing. And ... I get 23 days off a month! So ... 7 days a month, I get to fly a pretty cool plane, with some very eager and capable pilots ... its a fun way to fill one's spare time!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
BlueSkys
Topic Author
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:26 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 36):
I have a pretty good idea who you are talking about, and she is a very capable pilot. She opted for bottom B767 F/O ... not a great job, but at her age, she'll have a blast. And I mean BOTTOM, not one pilot junior to her on the B767 F/O list!

But, remember, AC did at one time hire pilots right into the B767 right seat. She got the job because no one senior to her bid the position, of course. And, for the record, the number one B767 F/O has almost 30 years seniority!

She'll be on reserve for a very long time, she is aware of that, and she can't wait to get on the aircraft.

As to whether that is fair, it is the seniority system. If she didn't have the seniority, she wouldn't achieve the position on the equipment bid. The seniority system is not gender specific. But as I have said above, Air Canada is experiencing a very large influx of new hires due to slight expansion, and a LOT of retirements. Its a good time to be in the business in Canada.

Thanks for the insight! By the way are we talking about the Red Haired girl?

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 36):
I am not sure if you are intimating this, but Air Canada does not hire by gender, race or region of origin. When Air Canada was a government owned airline, they did! The last time was in the mid 1980s, and ended when Air Canada began to become a privately held airline toward the end of the 1980s.

So, she was hired on her merits, as are all new hires. As the new hires are computer stacked in order, no human has intervention. Is it fair? It sure appears so!

I Guess I stand corrected  Wink

I Have seen it done on corporate airlines so assumed the same might go for AC, my mistake.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 37):
I did much the same thing 25 years ago! I did start my own Charter company, and I did make a great deal of money. However, any position that allows that, also requires a great deal of attention and time. I found that when I was hired by an airline, I now worked in a month, what I used to work in a week!

I Was thinking of getting an internship with a corporate airline just to see what the business end of it looks like, i have heard it could be a huge amount of work.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 37):
But, I don't turn my back on my background. I am an EMJ Captain, even though I can hold B767 Captain. I do this, because of the money I made when I was your age, so its not a bad thing. And ... I get 23 days off a month! So ... 7 days a month, I get to fly a pretty cool plane, with some very eager and capable pilots ... its a fun way to fill one's spare time!

Everytime it think about what I am missing I feel a bit sad not going into the airlines, its been something i wanted to do since I was 2 years old. Who knows, I might end up there one day sitting to your right!


Cheers!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Dazbo5 (Reply 7):
That's life I'm afraid. This isn't exclusive to the airline industry, it's pretty much in all walks of life.

Except investment banking. Anyone who doesn't mind putting in 60 hours a week to chase a $25K christmas bonus can do plenty well in that industry.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NYCAASpouse
Posts: 23
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
The reason why is that us pilots are taken advantage of because we actually LOVE our job.

Oh boo hoo.

Tell that to the pricks who did everything they could to foul up UA in 2000.

Some pilots love thier job.

Some pilots love their union contract a little more.

They aren't all angels.
Sic Semper Tyrannus
 
AnneTooh
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:26 am

Since everyone is talking about the financial aspects here I'd like to add just a little bit.

I've been doing this job now for some 17+ years and am looking forward to another 20+ if my body and company or future companies let me do it. Most of the time I go flying, not to "work". I've loved my job for most of the time. Yes, there have been bad times, too, and not too short either.

I was lucky, in a lot of ways. But my biggest luck was and is that I never had any doubts about what profession I wanted to get into. I am a happy pilot and I know lots of others, in fact the majority of pilots I know are happy when they're honest about it.

Does that count for anything?

I look back at my bad times and I take them in as part of me, something that I'm proud of, that I managed, that I passed and mastered.

Bad pay? Hmm, really can't complain too much, but that's me and applies to my current condition. I wouldn't want to miss my job however even for less money. Don't let that hear my bosses  Wink but that's a fact.

Going to work and looking forward to it - priceless. Coming back and still being happy about it, having a private life, a family life as well, heck, how much more do I want? There are so much more things about being a pilot than pay.

Open your eyes to the world and heck will it get interesting for you as a pilot. Don't confine yourself to your own country, you will get your effort back several times stronger than what you invested I'm convinced. Want to be a pilot and are ready to accept hardships? Go for it, you'll be rewarded if you take the right opportunities. Money wise I can't say, that's up to you really. Interesting life? Eye watering moments out of sheer happiness? Roller coasters of ups and downs? Yes, all of it and lots more. I believe there has never been a job as cursed with "may you have an interesting life!" as a pilot's job.

I love it, for all of it, it has shaped me into what I am today, it is one heck of a solid pillar on that I rest my life, besides other ones.

If you love to fly, then there is no other job that could match it. But it has to be in you.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Damn Poor Pilots!

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:05 pm

Interesting thread.

Asia is still challenging fro a Fresh CPL, MEIR holder. The requirements are still for type ratings and some decent time in those aircraft. Most 'foreigners' are being looked at for command, other wise it is experienced first officer positions. So in that sense it is a little bit harder

But yes, jobs in Asia have lower entry requirments on a whole compared to certain parts of the world.

Do I feel sorry for the 'poor pilots' who are starting out and not in the majors? The answer is NO. It is true that the pay is crap to start with but at the end of the day, we chose to go into this profession. We knew what we were getting ourselves into and its our choice to do so.

So I think the title 'poor pilots' is not what it should be.