DABZF
Topic Author
Posts: 1063
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:25 pm

Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:30 pm

Last friday I took AY flight HEL-FRA which departure was delayed for almost 1,5 hours because they were waiting connecting passengers (9 of them, all Y-class, I think) from one of their long haul Asian flights. Next to me was sitting a couple who were on their honeymoon and going to MRU on MK - because of the delay they eventually missed their connection. There was also some other passenger who missed their connections.

After about 30 min of the delay the woman of the couple started to talk to the F/A about their connection and was very worried that they will not make it. F/A promised to talk to the Captain. I also made a point to the F/A that there was LH flight leaving 1,5 hours later then the STD of the AY flight... "why wouldn't you put the delayed passengers on the LH flight so that the passenger on this light would make their connections?" - I asked, F/A again promised to check with the Captain.

Now, AY do not have any "own" connections ex FRA, some OneWorld ones only.
Q1) Do they care if the passengers (who have maid their bookings trough travel agency) do not make their OAL connections?

This all sounds a bit weird... I understand that you wait for connecting pax's if there is no way to get them to their destination in due time, say the same day - in this case they would have had the possibility of the LH flight. I know that there was more than plenty of space on the LH flight.

Q2) I'm not sure how AY would compensate the couple (and few others) because they missed their flight? Do AY follow the EU directive?
Q3) Would AY need to pay more to LH (via IATA clearing house) by diverting the delayed 9 pax onto LH flight instead of compensating the couple?
If so, this would be the only sensible explanation why AY decided to delay the flight this 1,5 hours.

Q4) Is this kind of delaying normal? I mean, I have been in a reversed situation before where AY have not delayed the flight for connecting passengers even the connection has been the last flight of the day!

Q5) Are these delays a Captains "call" always?

Thanks
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
User avatar
vivekman2006
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 5:19 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:46 pm

Have experienced this at BOM with Air India. I was on AI 144 from BOM to AMD. We had to wait nearly 1.5 hrs for incoming passengers from an international AI flight. After a wait of an hour, the F/As started serving snacks even though the aircraft was at the gate.

I think the decision to wait depends on the number of connecting passengers expected and the availability of alternative flights to the same destination.

- Vivek
 
flyboy_se
Posts: 709
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:54 pm

Thats odd that they wait so long for connecting pax. I guess in this case, AY cares more about their own pax then others that continue on other airlines.It is usually up to the captain to wait, but sometimes they get a call from Operations that tell them to wait. It could be that those 9 pax were VIP or something.And maybe it would have cost them more to transfer those 9 pax to LH then to delay their own flight 1,5 hours. It really depends.
I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
 
DABZF
Topic Author
Posts: 1063
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:25 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting Flyboy_se (Reply 2):
It could be that those 9 pax were VIP or something.

To add... they at didn't look very VIP - looked like standard Asian travellers!
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
Aisak
Posts: 549
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
Q1) Do they care if the passengers (who have maid their bookings trough travel agency) do not make their OAL connections?

Maybe and probably MK was the ticket handler (for the honeymoon couple) and somehow the AY guys couldn't figure out they were handing over these pax at FRA.

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
Q2) I'm not sure how AY would compensate the couple (and few others) because they missed their flight? Do AY follow the EU directive?

The EU directive doesn't say anything abouth flights delayed less than 2hr. It's upto the travel agency (or better said the tour operator) to clean up the mess and compensate the passengers. (and the tour operator could ask for compensation from Finnair)

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
Q3) Would AY need to pay more to LH (via IATA clearing house) by diverting the delayed 9 pax onto LH flight instead of compensating the couple?

mmm you said the LH flight was departing 1.5 hours after AY's scheduled depature..... These 9 asian passengers couldn't have caugth that flight anayway. Maybe there weren't 9 seats on the next available flight the following morning. Maybe they were OW emerald or VIP of any kind as suggested above. Maybe AY guys didn't know how many passengers could miss their off-line connections. Maybe they knew and didn't care (was cheaper)

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
Q4) Is this kind of delaying normal? I mean, I have been in a reversed situation before where AY have not delayed the flight for connecting passengers even the connection has been the last flight of the day!

I guess it depends on:
-who the people on the delayed incoming flight are
-who the people on the delaying outgoing flight are
-who the Finnair people working that day are
-the tight (or not) schedule of the aircraft for that day
-the congestion the destination airport suffers from
and on on on....
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting Aisak (Reply 4):
Maybe and probably MK was the ticket handler (for the honeymoon couple) and somehow the AY guys couldn't figure out they were handing over these pax at FRA.

AY and MK are both Amadeus Res carriers, so AY would definitely have had the MK oncarriage information if the agent had booked them in the same PNR, regardless of the system used.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
SASDC8
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:01 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:07 pm

Thought it might be the Captain who makes the official decision to wait or not, I would think that flight operations would have a big say in what the Captain decides to do  Wink

I find it strange that the waited so long for just nine pax, but if there were fewer pax ex FRA it might make sense from a economical point og view. Still I would think that the bill for the stranded Oneworld pax in FRA would go to AY, since their delay caused their miss cnx.

Stein
2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 6):
Thought it might be the Captain who makes the official decision to wait or not, I would think that flight operations would have a big say in what the Captain decides to do

As far as I am aware, a Captain in the US for any US airline has no say in the decision to wait or not, as long as the aircraft has not departed. That would be a decision of the station manager and operations.
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
"why wouldn't you put the delayed passengers on the LH flight so that the passenger on this light would make their connections?"

When did cabin crew become ticket agents? That's a question that you need to direct the ground worker (ticket/gate agent), not a in-flight service crew member.
 
N587NK
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:26 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 7):
As far as I am aware, a Captain in the US for any US airline has no say in the decision to wait or not

That would be correct. Its usually an Operations/Dispatch decision
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:02 am

This is a very interesting situation.

My first thought was that it happens frequently in the U.S., mostly on the last flight of the day. It's cheaper to hold a plane for a few minutes than to deal with stranded pax who miss their connection by a few minutes. It can be a tough call - exactly how long is acceptable to wait?

Besides, most passengers on the outgoing flight are not connecting at their destination, so a few minutes delay shouldn't be terribly inconvenient, and you would want it done for you, right?

With international flights, it is a different matter - for example, you might have people flying Bombay to Chicago via Frankfurt. The flight from Mumbai is delayed, and there are several passengers who are probably going to miss their connecting flight to Chicago. Do you delay that flight? It's not the same situation - there are probably more passengers connecting at Chicago than are incoming.

That's a tough call, but I go with "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):

In my experience, when I'm the one who needs the plane to wait so I can make a conenction, it never does. But when it is someone else and I am already on the plane, we wait.  Smile
 
boeing743
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:16 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:27 am

I have same thing as I was boarded on UA 757 from DEN-IND, it was a last flight for day. We had to wait for one woman who was late due to late arrival. Lead F/A on my flight was so angry. I think she said but not sure, "why do we have to wait for one person." I think it is waste our time as we wait on one person to board so we can departured. We probably delayed for about hour or so. As late passenger arrived, we had to show video emergency again due to FAA policy. We grouchy and complained about it. OH well FAA policy!!

I think that UA at DEN preferred to delay us so that all people to IND can leave DEN without have to pay voucher for people who was late that day.
 
r2rho
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:39 am

Geez, I wish that one US Airways transatlantic flight had waited for me when we were delayed coming in from PIT due to a huge thunderstorm, instead of leaving me stranded in PHL... on the wrong side of the ocean!
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting SASDC8 (Reply 6):
I would think that flight operations would have a big say in what the Captain decides to



Quoting N587NK (Reply 9):
That would be correct. Its usually an Operations/Dispatch decision

When it comes to delays for us, Ops are the people to call.

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 8):
When did cabin crew become ticket agents? That's a question that you need to direct the ground worker (ticket/gate agent), not a in-flight service crew member.

Was the flight still at the gate? Was check-in (or whatever they have there, where I work tickets, checkin and gates are all the same people so we just call them checkin) still there? If so, I think the best option would be asking the f/a if you could have a chat with them about the LH idea...


CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:52 am

Standard procedure for connections is this: There isn't a standard procedure. But, in general, if the airline can get you out that day, they will bump you, waive your connection, etc, in favor moving the flight on time. They don't have to put you on another airline. If there is just a few pax you are waiting on, generally they do not wait. If you have a large group, of maybe 15 or more, they wait... it all depends on the guy in operations and the decision he makes. Another factor is whether or not there IS another flight to that city that day... if not, they usually hold no matter how many... otherwise they have to put the pax up in a hotel and feed them + + +... so it's cheaper on them to delay a bit than to shell out cash.
 
Riddle274
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:04 am

I recently had this situation occur on a NW flight from DTW to FLL. The F/A explained to us that first, it is not the crew's decision to wait for connecting passengers, as Bobnwa alluded to already. The airline looks at a number of factors including, but probably not limited to: the number of passengers who are running late, whether delaying the flight puts the crew at risk of timing out, whether it puts other pax at risk of missing other connections, how much of a delay will it cause on that plane's next flight, how many more flights are there to that destination that day, how many open seats are on said flights, etc. In my case, it was the last flight to FLL (departed at 9pm), crew would not time out, we were waiting for 10 people, and obviously no connections would be missed. It was only about a 25 minute delay. The F/A also said as a general rule, they will not delay a flight more than 45 minutes due to waiting for connecting pax.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Riddle274 (Reply 16):

Very good post. That's just about what I said every time we were asked about connections as well. There are lots of things OPS looks at, none of which I can control. Very well said.
 
Riddle274
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:17 am

Thanks, AirTran717. I see you actually beat me to the punch with your post. Either way, as you said, there is no standard procedure for that situation as the decision is based on so many factors.
 
airbazar
Posts: 6874
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting R2rho (Reply 13):
Geez, I wish that one US Airways transatlantic flight had waited for me when we were delayed coming in from PIT due to a huge thunderstorm, instead of leaving me stranded in PHL... on the wrong side of the ocean!

I had the exact opposite experice. I was on a US flight PHL-MUC, which IIRC was the last trans-atlantic flight of the day. There was a snow storm in the Northeast and lots of delayed flights so they made our flight wait for every sinlge delayed passenger that was going to Europe until the plane was completely full. We waited inside the plane for almost 3 hours.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 19):

There are always exceptions and negative experiences.
 
jbernie
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:09 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:41 am

This is going back a bit... but in 98 I was flying LHR-SYD on QF, LHR had a good amount of fog and all sorts of flights were delayed, we sat at the gate for about an hour waiting on passengers who were flying in from Paris and got delayed. Given i was sitting in a row of four... and the only one in that row... i was sitting there waiting for them fully expecting to lose all that wonderful space.... woo! no one needed to sit there till Bangkok.

A couple of factors i could see influencing it....
- how close the crew is to timing out.
- how full the next flight(s) are
- route being travelled, a southwest every hour flight will go, a once a day long haul is more likely to wait
- whether the flight will arrive at destination after curfew, a flight arriving in the morning can wait longer
- who the passenger(s) are....a top level FF paying for a full F ticket has a better chance than someone holding the cheapest ticket on the plane.
- any other factor the airline feels to factor in, what the pilot had for lunch maybe?

I guess if you are connecting to another flight with the same airline they might be more inclined to go, if you are transferring to a different carrier, not linked by alliances, then I guess as they aren't going to be the ones compensating you etc etc they might not worry as much. In saying this though, it can be a double edged sword, you don't worry about passenger X and the $300 the other airline compensates them, but next time round that person might just fly someone else if they can and you lose alot more.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Jbernie (Reply 21):
any other factor the airline feels to factor in, what the pilot had for lunch maybe?

No, but sometimes equipment positioning plays a part... I was working a flight to DFW one night with just one paying person and the crew... only to be oversold the next morning... had they cancelled the RON would not have been there to take that flight out... another thing to think about...
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:59 am

A couple of years ago, when my originating flight leaving PDX was severely delayed on HP, the gate agent took the liberty of confirming me on the last flight of the evening from PHX to ELP, but told me to try and make the original flight I was booked on. I was able to make the original connecting flight about 10 sec. before they closed the door by hoofing it through PHX...  Wink I don't know if the new US Airways would still do that for an economy passenger...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
DABZF
Topic Author
Posts: 1063
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:25 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting P

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting Aisak (Reply 4):
mmm you said the LH flight was departing 1.5 hours after AY's scheduled depature..... These 9 asian passengers couldn't have caugth that flight anayway.

... mmmm actually, they would have made the LH flight... AY flight was on a remote stand and LH was on a regular gate. At one point, about 20-25 min before the Asians arrived, the captain made an announcement that the missing passenger are at the gate but now they still need to wait for the bus. They would have had plenty of time to get them into the LH flight as AY staff could have prepared everything before hand.

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 8):
When did cabin crew become ticket agents?

... when I said "you" I meant AY in general and not F/A personally. I was just giving the hint about the possibility.


One thing I missed in my thread starter was that on the flight back (FRA-HEL) there could have been possible connections to domestic destinations ex HEL... now they, if there were any, were also delayed into HEL for about 1,5 hour and possibly missed their connections.
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
hockey55dude
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:38 am

A few years ago I was going to Reno Via PHX. We got delayed going from San Diego to PHX. When we(my dad was with me) got to PHX we had to run to my other plane very far away. We where on one side of the terminal America West uses and we had to go to the other side of it. We ran so fast we got there right as they were closing the doors. Whew close one.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:52 am

Have we all put to rest the idea that pilots have anything to do with the decision to hold a flight.
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2197
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:08 am

In 1991, I was travelling on PA from ZRH - JFK - ORD with my sister. At JFK, her bags came out first, so she went ahead through customs to the gate since we were late getting to JFK. By the time I got to the gate, the gate agent told me the door is shut and it is too late; she sent me to customer service where I got put up in a hotel for the night to catch the same flight the next day. PA had only one flight from JFK-ORD per day! My sister later told me that the plane waited for me for like a half hour, but the FAs failed to communicate with the gate agent.
 
FLIEGER67
Posts: 5195
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:43 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:18 am

I´am not sure what´s behind AY's operations.
But when you follow for example the delays on AY´s morning inbound to DUS,
mostly one to two hours delayed, someone told me about the reason, you know it: Late inbound pax
from the intercontinental flights. Sounds weird to me.
Tripreporter.net
 
MidEx216
Posts: 547
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:19 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:38 am

At YX, flights hold only if their are connecting passengers on an inbound up to 15 minutes later than departure time. After landing, connecting passengers have a maximum of 15 more minutes to make it to their next gate. If they don't, they are left behind. There, however, special circumstances, I'm sure. An hour and a half though is just out of hand.
 
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:22 pm

Looks to me like Air India had a mechanical or other technical problem and were lying to the passengers onboard the aircraft!!!!!!  dollarsign   footinmouth 
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
FlyOakland2IAH
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:08 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 23):

From experience, the new US Airways won't. In February, I was connecting through PHX to IAH. The incoming flight from OAK was 28 minutes late, and I had 14 minutes to get to the next gate, which of course was two concourses over. I got there with two minutes to spare, but the door was already closed, and I was informed that the flight was closed. US had/has a policy of shutting the door 10 minutes before departure (so my 42 minute connection was really 32 minutes). I was stranded overnight in PHX at my expense (fortunately a friend put me up) because there were some delays due to rainstorms earlier in the day, which is why my incoming plane was late getting to OAK for the trip back to PHX. There were a lot of other angry passengers who also missed connections even though their planes were still at the gate... and only one agent at the customer service line. I was doubly upset because an earlier PHX-IAH flight I was supposed to take had been pre-cancelled the day before. I ended up getting home 24 hrs later than originally planned.

I don't know why with all the delays why US couldn't hold their flights for a few minutes so pax wouldn't end up stranded. This may have actually been an issue with Mesa Air, since the PHX-IAH leg was on a CRJ, and I later saw a press release bragging that Mesa Air's flights were 90% (or so) ontime in February.

From JBernie:
but next time round that person might just fly someone else if they can and you lose alot more.

Yep, I'm avoiding US after this experience. The $150 voucher and apology hardly compensate for the extra day of work lost.
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting P

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:53 pm

I've been told many times by AA gate agents at DFW, who deal with connecting passengers on basically every single flight, that the policy for holding flights for inbound connections is very flexible and discretionary. What I've heard, and observed many times, is that often they won't hold the plane for connections unless there is an extraordinary number, or it's the last flight of the night. For example, once I was flying DFW-LAX and they held the plane 20 minutes because they said there were nearly 90 connecting passengers coming in from the East Coast, which was delayed due to weather. Another time, I was flight DFW-SEA on the last flight of the night, and they held it for about 25 connecting passengers also delayed due to weather, this time at DFW itself. However, on countless occasions, I've seen them happily shut the door two minutes before departure, and just deal with reaccomodating the late misconnects when they eventually turn up at the gate.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:15 pm

Quoting FlyOakland2IAH (Reply 31):
US had/has a policy of shutting the door 10 minutes before departure (so my 42 minute connection was really 32 minutes).

That is the "official" policy, but rarely is it followed. I've had gate agents put pax on past scheduled push time on a curfew flight.

Quoting FlyOakland2IAH (Reply 31):
I don't know why with all the delays why US couldn't hold their flights for a few minutes so pax wouldn't end up stranded. This may have actually been an issue with Mesa Air, since the PHX-IAH leg was on a CRJ,

Bingo. I don't know how Mesa does it, but Mainline US in PHX is really inconsistent with holds. Somedays they refuse to hold anything for anyone, somedays over half of the flights in a complex will be held for up to 10 mins.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Jano
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:23 pm

The same thing happened to me on August 3rd when flying OK. My wife and myself were in J class on OK619 from AMS to PRG and then connecting to OK982 PRG-SLD (each of us was on one PNR). The OK619 left the gate in AMS 1 hour late at 8:25pm instead of 7:25pm. The reason for delay was "Delayed due to inbound flight delayed"*. All the time when on board of OK619 I was hoping that they would hold OK982 for us since there is the only flight from PRG to SLD and we were J class pax.

*It would be nice if the pax were told the true reason for the flight delay. The official "Delayed due to inbound flight delayed" just does not cut it.

So OK619 landed in PRG at 9:49pm. We sprinted to B12 gate (where OK982 was departing from) and got to the security check at 9:54pm (9 minutes late). At the security check we were informed that OK982 already left.

So we went to the transfer desk where we found out that there were 30+ pax misconnected (from the delayed OK619) who were flying to KSC, BTS, BRQ. Transfer desk was a real chaos. The pax in "Business class, SkyTeam Elite Plus, SkyTeam Elite" line not being paid attention to until I inquired in the loud voice about "when they would start processing the business class passengers".

Anyway, I still do not get how OK can have such an excellent on-board service, where is literally shines in both J and Y on intra European flights comparing to KL and AF and yet have so messed up ground services. In AMS the "Business class, SkyTeam Elite Plus, SkyTeam Elite" at least have priority at the transfer desk, at CDG when the inbound flight is delayed there seems to be always an AF person waiting for us with info.

In PRG we had to spent 50 minutes at the transfer desk, be given an accommodation at the PRG Marriott Courtyard, be flown to BTS on the next day first flight and then be given a cab for BTS-SLD ride. All paid by CSA and definitely nice things. But could not OK hold OK982 (and flights to BTS. KSC and BRQ) for 20 minutes? I would have much more preferred to be in SLD on August 3rd and not August 4th and it seems to me that it would cost OK less money too considering they had to pay for our hotel and BTS-SLD cab.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 8:30 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:13 pm

I've actually had my manager call ORD operations for an flight that had about 12 people connection from our flight, they told my manager "we'll keep it in mind". Sure enough, flight information finally reflected an ETD of about 10 mins. after our flight arrived into ORD for "AWTG CNX" (awaiting connection). They waited to make the decision until our plane left the gate so that they had a more accurate ETA. The flight only arrived about three minutes late into the destination city.
 
ZakHH
Posts: 1570
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:32 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:15 pm

The Asia service is kind of AY's flagship product. However, most of the incoming pax are certainly neither Finns, nor Asians that want to explore the undoubted beauty of Finland. Instead, they will connect to other destinations in Europe via HEL.

Now, if AY decided to put punctuality over guaranteed connections, they would harm their most valuable product. That's why they would usually wait.

As for rebooking the delayed pax on Lufthansa, there is several reasons that would speak against it:
- no guarantee that LH has free seats (especially in summertime, FRA-HEL-FRA is quite fully booked, at least last time I checked)
- no guarantee that LH would wait. What if pax came few minutes too late for the LH flight? You cannot know for sure 2 hours ahead, when the decision had to be made.
- if I booked with AY and then had to fly LH... okay, that's a different story Big grin

As a consequence, I would consider not using AY when flying from HEL to another European hub and connecting with another airline there. Or if you do, make sure you'll be there at least 3 hours earlier than needed.

Here in HAM, inbound AY flights are very often delayed. I really like AY, and certainly prefer their Embraers over Blue1's Avros. But their punctuality seems to depend on their inbound Asian flights a tad too often for my liking.
Tired of a.net? Join a friendly aviation community!
 
airbazar
Posts: 6874
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:39 pm

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 20):
There are always exceptions and negative experiences.

My understanding is that if it is the last flight to Europe, it's not that much of an exception, and it wasn't necessarily a bad experience because I've flown enough to expect things like that during bad weather, especially during a Nor'easter. The bad experience came later when they misplaced my skiing equipment for 3 days and I couldn't go skiing in what was supposed to be a skiing vacation  Sad
 
gilesdavies
Posts: 2271
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:57 pm

It was probably an economic decision for Finnair to wait for the passengers...

If they missed the flight, the airline would be responsible for them putting them up in hotel overnight until the following morning and maybe there was not nine seats available in Y for following days service between HEL-FRA.

Also the airline probably not responsible for the Air Mauritius passengers connecting at FRA and would be down to that airline to put them on another flight at their expense. Unless both airlines have an interlining agreement at FRA, connections are probably not guaranteed!

Quoting R2rho (Reply 13):
Geez, I wish that one US Airways transatlantic flight had waited for me when we were delayed coming in from PIT due to a huge thunderstorm, instead of leaving me stranded in PHL... on the wrong side of the ocean!

In these situations did US Airways put you up in a hotel until the following day or was that your problem to deal with until the next available flight?
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5564
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:00 am

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
Next to me was sitting a couple who were on their honeymoon and going to MRU on MK - because of the delay they eventually missed their connection. There was also some other passenger who missed their connections.

My question is do you know they acutally missed their connection - or that the schedule departure time of the connecting flights was missed? Since you asked about compensation - it appears you don't have specific knowledge that they acutally missed the connecting flight - or how the airline dealt with the issue. (I could have misunderstood that part of your post). I will conceed that it is highly likely they missed the flight.

Sometimes this delay has a ripple effect on much of the system for the day.

The basic problem with the original question is you only have a small part of information to know why the decision to delay was made, what the impact upon the late arriving passengers would have been, what the impact of moving them to the LH flight would have been (Is the LH flight one of those internal European deals with reduced customs - thus the arriving Asian passengers would not be eligible for that flight - not having cleared customs/ immigration at HEL?)

Moving the passengers to a different connection might be easy - moving their bags might be a big issue.

I've been on both ends of this situation - Narita was well known for delaying departures for late arrivals when I lived in Japan. Where as Haneda was the opposite. I've also had it occur in the US quite frequently.

On short haul flights like HEL-FRA - there is potential for the flight crew to make up a significant portion of the delayed time - if weather and ATC cooperate.

But in general airlines really dislike delaying any flight except their last flight of the day because of the down-schedule impact.

While it's one flight for two hours for us passengers - it's one of five or six similar legs during a flight day.
 
DABZF
Topic Author
Posts: 1063
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 10:25 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting P

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 39):
My question is do you know they acutally missed their connection - or that the schedule departure time of the connecting flights was missed?

... yes they really did miss the MK flight. I was on the same monorail with them from T2 to T1 and we actually saw the jetway pulling away from the MK flight on one of the C gates. Unfortunately I do not know who (if anyone) offered them a hotel.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 39):
you only have a small part of information to know why the decision to delay was made

... actually only information I have about the reason of the delay is that 9 Asians were delayed because of a late inbound flight and that they were all Y-Class.

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 36):
As for rebooking the delayed pax on Lufthansa, there is several reasons that would speak against it:
- no guarantee that LH has free seats
- no guarantee that LH would wait. What if pax came few minutes too late for the LH flight?

... LH did have seats available (plenty) on that day - that is a fact.
... this is of course true that LH would not have wait for AY passengers! Then again, they would not have needed to - of course this was propably not known when the decision was made!?


Anyways... I'm not blaming anybody (AY). I was merely asking what are the general rules (if there are any) in case of situations like this?

It just seems that there are no procedures in place for situations like this... instead they are dealt "one-by-one" when ever they happen. Actually, I really wonder if the operations are making calculations which option is more feasible for the company in cases like these... then again, I don't know, that's why I was asking.  Wink
I like driving backwards in the fog cause it doesn't remind me of anything - Chris Cornell
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
Last friday I took AY flight HEL-FRA which departure was delayed for almost 1,5 hours because they were waiting connecting passengers

I've been one of these pax before, on Finnair, coming from Shanghai (PVG).

In the end the flight had to leave so I was put on the next BA flight.

Finnair in my experience are very kind to connecting pax, my routing has always been shown on the TV's in the cabin, along with the rest of connecting routes, which is always an interesting read too.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:09 am

Well, there aren't set procedures for this kind of thing, only general ones. No two delays or connections will ever be the same. So you can't dictate a rule for a situation that is so fluid and everchanging.
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:15 am

I remember twice on "CBS Amazing Race" that a team was eliminated because their connecting flight did not wait for them.

The pilots clearly are the ones who make the decision to allow extra time for late connecting pax. They can only wait so long then they have to depart.

[Edited 2007-08-09 19:16:38]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Knightsofmalta
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:51 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:28 am

The first problem is that if Finnair were to reprotect those nine passengers onto the LH flight, that would count as an involuntary rerouting, which would cost the airlines a lot of money for each passenger. Secondly, these were Finnair passengers connecting from one of the airline's long-haul flights if I understood correctly. Keeping its own passengers happy by waiting will inevitably have higher priority over connections on other airlines on to which passengers of the HEL-FRA flight might be connecting to in FRA.

And finally, as for compensation, in the case of the couple you mentioned, it all depends on the kind of tickets they purchased. If the whole trip was booked on a single ticket than according to IATA the airlines which caused the missed connection is responsible for the passengers, be it to rebook them or to pay for hotels etc. However, it this couple had separate tickets, one for the trip HEL-FRA return with AY and another one FRA-MRU return with MK, then in case of missed connection none of the airlines involved is responsible and it's basically just a matter of tough luck for the passengers.

What I don't understand is, why didn't they contact Finnair staff at HEL before departure? Or were passengers forced to spend 90 minutes waiting on the aircraft?
 
sk601
Posts: 896
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 11:46 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Jano (Reply 34):
It would be nice if the pax were told the true reason for the flight delay. The official "Delayed due to inbound flight delayed" just does not cut it.

Why do passengers always think that they are fooled? Why would they lie about it? "Delayed due to late arrival" is IMO a valid reason. In this case you can really check that yourself, since there is only 1 OK evening flight. Flight OK618 arrives late, everybody can figure out that the outbound will be late as well. You actually wanted to know why the inbound was late. Let's say OK618 departed PRG 1 hour late due to a technical issue. This is shown in the gate agents computer for the OK618 arrival (code 41, followed by the number of minutes delay). The delay reason for OK619 will be "late incoming aircraft" (code 93). That's THE reason for the outbound delay, NOT the technical problem. OK doesnot have spare aircraft in AMS so they cannot do an aircraft swap to let OK619 depart on time, they have to wait for OK616 to arrive.

Quoting Jano (Reply 34):
comparing to KL and AF and yet have so messed up ground services

KL can be a big mess as well, since they are short staffed, but they are trying to give J class and Elites better and faster service recently, by implementing these special desks and where Y class and non-elites are sent away. The discussion that arise from that usually take longer than checkin in that y-class/non-elite passenger, but they are trying....

Quoting Jano (Reply 34):
it seems to me that it would cost OK less money too considering they had to pay for our hotel and BTS-SLD cab.

As a former gate agent that's what I heard every time when a passenger was forced to spend the night in AMS due to a misconnection. Realise that airlines do NOT pay the regular hotel room rate, but they get those rooms with a REAL NICE DISCOUNT. Many airlines have a special computer program that calculates exactly what the cost is of holding a plane, rebook the passenger on a non-partner airline the same day, or keep the passenger on your own airline (or alliance) and pay for taxi/hotel/food etc. You already guessed that the airline will choose the cheapest option. Once again, as mentioned before in this thread, there are many factors that will be taken into account, and this is just one of them.

It's all about money
 dollarsign   dollarsign  . Goodwill has no price, but with goodwill you cannot pay your staff, so airlines take into account that a few passengers will never fly them again, because of a misconnection. They also know, that misconnects happen at their competion; and they act the same way.  ashamed   wink 
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4636
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 43):
The pilots clearly are the ones who make the decision to allow extra time for late connecting pax. They can only wait so long then they have to depart.

As stated previously, pilots have next to zero say in holding an airplane for passengers. They get paid to fly the airplane, not to determine company operations.

I say next to zero because if they really feel a flight should be held, they (along with we rampers) will find reasons to wait for them (and their bags), although generally we don't stall more than 5-10 mins.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
silentbob
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting FlyOakland2IAH (Reply 31):

I don't know why with all the delays why US couldn't hold their flights for a few minutes so pax wouldn't end up stranded. This may have actually been an issue with Mesa Air, since the PHX-IAH leg was on a CRJ, and I later saw a press release bragging that Mesa Air's flights were 90% (or so) ontime in February.

You hit on one part of the reason, on time stats are very important to airlines.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 39):
But in general airlines really dislike delaying any flight except their last flight of the day because of the down-schedule impact.

That's another really big part of the equation.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 43):
The pilots clearly are the ones who make the decision to allow extra time for late connecting pax. They can only wait so long then they have to depart.

Maverick pretty much covered my points, you're way off.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5564
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Reply 44):
What I don't understand is, why didn't they contact Finnair staff at HEL before departure? Or were passengers forced to spend 90 minutes waiting on the aircraft?

From the original post:

Quoting DABZF (Thread starter):
After about 30 min of the delay the woman of the couple started to talk to the F/A about their connection and was very worried that they will not make it. F/A promised to talk to the Captain. I also made a point to the F/A that there was LH flight leaving 1,5 hours later then the STD of the AY flight... "why wouldn't you put the delayed passengers on the LH flight so that the passenger on this light would make their connections?" - I asked, F/A again promised to check with the Captain.

Seems to answer your question with a yes - they had to wait on the aircraft for 90 minutes during the delay.
 
EFHK
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

RE: Delaying A Flight Because Of Late Connecting Pax

Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting ZakHH (Reply 36):
Here in HAM, inbound AY flights are very often delayed. I really like AY, and certainly prefer their Embraers over Blue1's Avros. But their punctuality seems to depend on their inbound Asian flights a tad too often for my liking.

In the case of HAM, flights are rarely delayed due to late Asian inbounds, broken Embraers are a bigger part of the problem. Generally, flights from Asia are quite well on time, but flights to Asia are more often delayed. With BKK being an exception, it delays the evening flights more often, especially to GOT, OSL and CPH. AY's punctuality has decraeased clearly this summer, mostly because of problems with Embraers, but Asian flights have caused more problems than before as well.
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.

Who is online