tomascubero
Posts: 415
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:19 pm

KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:57 am

Hi Guys,

Well quite a surprise for me since I saw them come into SJO before PTY (or at least AF), but here it is:

http://aeronautica.gob.pa/index.php?..._content&task=view&id=378&Itemid=1

(In Spanish Only)

A Translation from me:

The imminent increase that the aviation industry promotes is shown with the arrival of KLM to Panama again, which will offer direct flights from Europe, as informed by the Civil Aeronautical Authority (AAC).

Conversations have been kept with Roeland Klaveren of KLM and its estimated they will start flights by next October.

The airline KLM suspended its operations in Panama 3 years ago and now the economical stability and trust the country offers has attracted KLM to reactivate its flights.

The flights between Amsterdam and Panama will be non-stop and the KLM executives have recieved all the paperwork from the Civil Aeronautical Authority for the start of this route.

Good news for Panama and bad news for SJO which is just sinking lower and lower, and if CAFTA doesn't go through, we are in an even bigger mess.

Saludos  Smile
Tomas.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:45 am

Great news, it might have something to do with Panama being designated a Home Port for cruises by Royal Caribbean, also announced this week.

Quoting Tomascubero (Thread starter):
Good news for Panama and bad news for SJO which is just sinking lower and lower, and if CAFTA doesn't go through, we are in an even bigger mess.

Costa Rica is still light years away from Panama in tourism infrastructure, but Panama is catching up and fast, and they also have a more developed business oriented economy. Costa Rica needs some serious structural reforms, for example it takes you 6 months to get a cell phone line due to the government monopoly But that is a topic for another thread.

Do you think they will codeshare with CM?
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
tomascubero
Posts: 415
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Costa Rica is still light years away from Panama in tourism infrastructure, but Panama is catching up and fast, and they also have a more developed business oriented economy.

Totally agree with you on the business economy, but do you really think we are very far from Panama in tourism? I mean as a local I've heard of packages to Bocas del Toro and Isla Contadora and thats about it. Here in Costa Rica there are just thousands of opportunities for torusim, and its quite eviden that Liberia is a purely tourist-oriented airport. Also, stand in the airport exit at SJO and you can see how all the foreigners come ready for a tour, dressed tropically and/or have tour operators waiting for them.

I have never been to Panama so I can't judge that but tourism is one of, if not, the largest income generators for Costa Rica.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Costa Rica needs some serious structural reforms, for example it takes you 6 months to get a cell phone line due to the government monopoly

LOL that was a funny time, I remember when there were no GSM lines for almost 2 years and I was lucky enough yo had gotten one from before. All my friends had to cope with TDMA lines and old phones. Apart from that, a lot of the things here are slow, starting with SJO...

But lets not get carried away!

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Do you think they will codeshare with CM?

Definetly, well I guess another factor for KLM starting service to PTY is because of SkyTeam and Copa's prompt intergration with SkyTeam. Codeshares literally a give away if you think about this.

Regards,
Tomas.
 
luisca
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:16 pm

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 2):
Totally agree with you on the business economy, but do you really think we are very far from Panama in tourism? I mean as a local I've heard of packages to Bocas del Toro and Isla Contadora and thats about it. Here in Costa Rica there are just thousands of opportunities for torusim, and its quite eviden that Liberia is a purely tourist-oriented airport. Also, stand in the airport exit at SJO and you can see how all the foreigners come ready for a tour, dressed tropically and/or have tour operators waiting for them.

I have never been to Panama so I can't judge that but tourism is one of, if not, the largest income generators for Costa Rica.

You mis interpreted me! I meant that Costa Rica Is Light Years MORE advanced than panama; Sorry for the confusion.

My point was that I read in an article that at the rate that tourism is growing in Panama and the massive amount of raw MONEY that panama has if CR doesn't do something Panama could pass their tourism number in 12-15 years. Panama has more than 20 Billion dollars in investments ligned up in the next 5 years, Costa Rica is still debating whether or not to sign an treaty they agreed to almost 3 years ago and that everybody else including Panama (unilaterally and away from CAFTA) has signed.

Look at how Royal Caribbean chose panama over Costa Rica as a home port, at the fact that over 30 hotels will be built in Panama in the next 2 years and you will see my point that Panama will catch up and pass Costa Rica in the next 15-20 years unless the Ticos do something and get their $hit together and reform their economy which is stuck in the 1960s.

[Edited 2007-08-09 05:22:24]
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
HB-IWC
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:14 pm

Final decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made, although it is indeed very likely to happen. Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.
 
SJOtoLIR
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:24 pm

Quoting Tomascubero (Thread starter):
The imminent increase that the aviation industry promotes is shown with the arrival of KLM to Panama again, which will offer direct flights from Europe

In our region, flights to Europe in Sky Team airlines usually depart from the U.S.A., Mexico, Venezuela and Colombia.
Those Central American passengers who hasn´t got any U.S. Visa are moving mostly to CCS in order to take their next plane to Europe: AF (CCS-CDG) and AZ (CCS-MXP). The first step to Venezuela is usually covered by TA meaning reduced waiting time in CCS.
Regarding the Sky Team network schedule, KL does not operate CCS-AMS...
If (PTY-AMS) and vice versa starts operations, those "Sky Team passengers" coming from GUA, SAL, TGU, SAP, MGA and SJO may certainly find a better gate-away to Europe through PTY.
CM may work as the air carrier for those in-transit passengers making the first leg: (Rest of Central America)-PTY
Mind CM is a potential candidate to become a Sky Team member as KL already is...
Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
SJOtoLIR
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

I believe the route may operate as nonstop.
KL needs a dedicate PTY-AMS to response mainly to:
1. AZ (CCS-MXP)
2. AF (CCS-CDG)
3. IB (SJO-MAD)

and any others...
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
HB-IWC
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KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:11 pm

I find the title of this thread misleading at best. KLM didn't announce anything whatsoever and while it is true that the PTY service is under consideration, it is by no means a given yet the title suggests that KLM has already announced it. This thread is not based on a KLM announcement but on a local publication in Panama.
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:00 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Final decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made

Is it more likely than AMS-EZE? What is the status of that route; possible but unlikely?
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:08 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
Is it more likely than AMS-EZE? What is the status of that route; possible but unlikely?

KLM is also studying AMS-GIG or AMS-REC or even AMS-GIG-EZE. There are many routes and posssibilities but no final decision. GIG would bring excellent results to AMS as well, since both are oil routes, but AF double daily flights to GIG could deter KLM.

Rgs,
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:30 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
AMS-GIG-EZE

I assume this only would make sense if they can get the rights to sell tickets on the EZE-GIG leg.
I don't know the economics of this route, but I found it hard to get a cheap ticket for this route during July of this year. In the end I went for JJ but that was more due to the fact they allowed me to fly GRU-COR as the return leg for EZE-GIG which is quite a open-jaw if you ask me Big grin
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:20 pm

GIG is a route bringing excellent results for AF (a top performer) and I have no doubts KLM would make good profits operating AMS-GIG or AMS-GIG-EZE A330, with 5th freedom rights.

Rgs,
 
AF086
Posts: 506
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 10):
I assume this only would make sense if they can get the rights to sell tickets on the EZE-GIG leg.

Airlines usually manage do get 5th freedom rights for these legs so I guess KL would as well.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
AF double daily flights to GIG could deter KLM.

If the second AF flight to GIG performs well the next natual step is KL returning there. As for REC I think it would be more likely an AF return over a KL service since there's more O & D traffic between north/northeast Brazil (and perhaps BSB) and France and also the CDG hub provides plenty of connections.
Please insert a "smart" joke here.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

If KL wants to keep non-stops to AMS from the three ABC islands, the one to BON has to continue elsewhere since Bonaire is too small a market to sustain a point-to-point to AMS.

Local authorities in Bonaire have been giving incentives to KL to stay there.
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 13):
If KL wants to keep non-stops to AMS from the three ABC islands

The Ecuador flights continue to stop over in BON six times weekly, but BON has recently lost the LIM flights when LIM went nonstop, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to see any expansion in the region operate via BON as well.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 1):
Do you think they will codeshare with CM?

Most likely yes, and KL surely will try to arrive/depart at CM hub hours.

Quoting Tomascubero (Reply 2):
LOL that was a funny time, I remember when there were no GSM lines for almost 2 years and I was lucky enough yo had gotten one from before. All my friends had to cope with TDMA lines and old phones. Apart from that, a lot of the things here are slow, starting with SJO...

A bit off topic, but just as an interesting fact: Panamanian cellular do have rooming in CR, getting a cellular in Panama just takes minutes. If the Panamanian rooming charges for use in Costa Rica were affordable, thousands of TIcos would be getting Panamanian mobiles for use in their country.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Final decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made, although it is indeed very likely to happen. Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

Both CUR and AUA has been wishing for a CM flight for years, If the AMS flight has to be via one of the Dutch Caribbean islands and will be code-shared w/CM, AUA, CUR or even SXM might be better stops than BON.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 7):
This thread is not based on a KLM announcement but on a local publication in Panama.

It's not a local publication, is a press release from the Panama Civil Aviation Authority. Still not that reliable, the same Panamanian authority that said CM is to fly DAV-MIA, while CM still can't get the numbers right for such a flight.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:21 pm

It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS? Has anybody heard anything?

A cabincrew member told me he was informed about this happening in summer08 but I haven't heard anything since.

I'm in CCS currently and I'm really enjoying the view from the beach in the afternoon as the prevailing winds are NE (rare) and the big ones coming in from Europe pass right over my private piece of beach on their approach to CCS airport. Paradise!
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:29 pm

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 16):
It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS? Has anybody heard anything?

A cabincrew member told me he was informed about this happening in summer08 but I haven't heard anything since.

I've been talking to an AF crew-member and he said that the AF/KL policy for South America is not to have too many outstations that are served by both carriers. Off course this makes a lot of sense. We are now talking about opening CCS, GIG and EZE; destinations that could all work very well for KL, but already served by AF.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 13):
If KL wants to keep non-stops to AMS from the three ABC islands, the one to BON has to continue elsewhere since Bonaire is too small a market to sustain a point-to-point to AMS.



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 14):
The Ecuador flights continue to stop over in BON six times weekly

So, that means a possible nonstop AMS-PTY due BON may not support a possible AMS-BON-PTY.
KL operates a daily CUR-AMS.
KL operates AUA-AMS two days a week.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
2travel2know
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:55 am

BON alone will support a once weekly AMS flight provided KL gets a couple of contracts with tour operators for x number of seats per flights. But if so was the case, BON would more likely need MP than KL.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
AUA747
Posts: 110
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 18):
KL operates AUA-AMS two days a week.

4 times a week
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 16):
It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS?

CCS is now AF business.

I think PTY is being considered in tandem with GIG, EZE and REC. Of course, decision time will come.

Rgs,
 
rootsair
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
nal decision for AMS PTY has not yet been made, although it is indeed very likely to happen. Also, it remains as per yet unclear whether the route will be served nonstop or with an intermediate stop in the Caribbean, which would most likely occur in BON.

KL tro PTY before SJO is purely because CM is part of skyTeam and CM gives excellent connections !
 airplane  wave 
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 16):
It would be very nice to open PTY but when oh when will KL re-open CCS?

I doubt this will happen any time soon. KLM has enough fish to fry as it is and with a net widebody fleet increase of just 3 units (2 B77W and 1 A332) in 2008 plus a continiung flow of B744/74E frames going in for a lengthy D-check, there is little room for expansion. Part of the available capacity will be invested in frequency reinforcements (PVG, HYD, LIM, CPT all go up in frequency next summer compared to this summer), which realistically leaves room for just a single new destination, unless KLM decides to pull some of the current reinforcements, and I could indeed envisage the LAX and/or YYZ seasonal additions not returning next summer.

That said, I don't think that CCS is far up the list of KLM's priorities for expansion. AF has a daily B744 there and that should do, as it goes. There are plenty of other projects that would fit much better in the AF/KL synergy being looked at, at the moment. I put my money on one additional North America destination for next summer...
 
luisca
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):

Do you think that if the PTY route goes ahead they will operate it with a 772 or a A332? via PTY KL can offer through CM codeshares 1 stop service to SJO, GUA, SAP, TGU, SAL, CLO, MDE!
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 24):
Do you think that if the PTY route goes ahead they will operate it with a 772 or a A332?

My money for such a flight is on the MD11.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):
That said, I don't think that CCS is far up the list of KLM's priorities for expansion. AF has a daily B744 there and that should do, as it goes.

AF have been switching CCS between B744 and A343 over the last 2 years, is the A343 bound to comeback to CCS on low season?
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 24):
Do you think that if the PTY route goes ahead they will operate it with a 772 or a A332?



Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 25):
My money for such a flight is on the MD11.

Interesting !
KL operates AMS - (AUA, BON, CUR) with their MD11...
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
bongo
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:44 am

Well, that gives me (and all people from Colombia, besides Bogota) a new option to go COL-EUROPE. since I´d rather choose MDE-PTY-AMS instead of MDE-BOG-EUROPE ...
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 28):
Well, that gives me (and all people from Colombia, besides Bogota) a new option to go COL-EUROPE. since I�d rather choose MDE-PTY-AMS instead of MDE-BOG-EUROPE ...

What about MDE-CCS-europe?, there are much more options thru CCS (AF/AZ/TP/IB/UX/S3/LH) than either BOG or PTY
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
luisca
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 29):
What about MDE-CCS-europe?, there are much more options thru CCS (AF/AZ/TP/IB/UX/S3/LH) than either BOG or PTY

Trip time is shorter if you connect in PTY or BOG, also it is much more convenient. It is true that CCS has more options, but CCS is a pain in the rear to connect, all Bongo is saying is that a KL PTY-AMS opens up more convenient connections for a lot of people.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:44 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 30):
but CCS is a pain in the rear to connect

Why do you think it is? I can't compare with PTY because have never been there, but what I know us that CCS has been improved a lot over the last couple of years, Int'l terminal completely refurbished (looks like a new one), nice duty free area, new indoor bridge linking domestic-int'l terminals is scheduled to be open very soon (if not done already).

Quoting Luisca (Reply 30):
Trip time is shorter if you connect in PTY or BOG

Correct me if i'm wrong but AFAIK on MDE-CCS-Europe you are flying east all the way while MDE-BOG and MDE-PTY is a backtrack when you're going to Europe.
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
Summa767
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 31):
Correct me if i'm wrong but AFAIK on MDE-CCS-Europe you are flying east all the way while MDE-BOG and MDE-PTY is a backtrack when you're going to Europe.

CCS would certainly be a more geographically logical option. However, the fact of the matter is that there are no current flights MDE-CCS, as Aeropostal has withdrwan its service, whereas to PTY there are 2 daily flights to suit CM's hub operation.
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):
KLM has enough fish to fry as it is and with a net widebody fleet increase of just 3 units (2 B77W and 1 A332) in 2008 plus a continiung flow of B744/74E frames going in for a lengthy D-check, there is little room for expansion.

You said everything. So lets hold our breath for any expansion wishes.

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
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RE: KLM The Return Of AMS-PTY Non-Stop?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 17):
I've been talking to an AF crew-member and he said that the AF/KL policy for South America is not to have too many outstations that are served by both carriers. Off course this makes a lot of sense. We are now talking about opening CCS, GIG and EZE; destinations that could all work very well for KL, but already served by AF.

Considering that AF at first time decided to run GIG second flight 6x weekly and further upgrade to double daily, and now already upload the flight as 5x weekly during summer, i would say that a new capacity/upgrade in terms of frequencies to Rio wont happen before the end of 2008 and subject to the final results of the 2nd flight.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !

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