HB-IWC
Topic Author
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Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:05 pm

Air France is discontinuing its recently started daylight New York to Paris flight because of weaker than expected performance. The late evening departure AF004 CDG JFK will operate for the last time on Saturday, September 29, with a return as AF005 on Sunday, September 30. Air France will further reduce JFK capacity, by substituting one of its B772ER flights on the route by the freed up A332.

Furthermore, Air France is reducing transatlantic capacity in October by introducing winter reduction one month earlier than expected. Diminished service effective October 01 includes flights to the following cities: BOS (1 daily only), ORD (6 weekly), DTW (6 weekly), PHL (6 weekly), SEA (5 weekly), and IAH (12 weekly).

[Edited 2007-08-13 16:08:47]
 
mk777
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:28 pm

Any ideas why the loads are looking too low for AF expecially from JFK?? Is it because people continuing over to Asia have non-stop options??
come fly with me
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:29 pm

Too bad. I know others here (possibly including yourself!) correctly predicted that this flight wouldn't last, but I give AF a lot of credit for giving it a try. Personally I thought it had a better chance than previous efforts, given AF's strong presence at JFK and the possibility of new connections via CDG to Africa, the Middle East and Asia, but alas it seems I was wrong!

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Air France will further reduce JFK capacity, by substituting one of its B772ER flights on the route by the freed up A332.

Are you sure about this? Looking at some days in November (which are of interest to me because I am booked on AF from JFK to CDG and I wanted to see if my flights were affected), it seems that instead of the daylight flight they are now operating AF10/11, which I thought was normally a summer season-only 744 flight, with an A340. The other flights (22/23, 6/7 and 8/9) appear to remain as 772ER, 773ER and 773ER, respectively, which is as they were a few weeks ago when I booked my trip. If this is the case it would actually be a slight increase in capacity at JFK for the off season.

[Edited 2007-08-13 16:40:49]
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
UN_B732
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:36 pm

This one usually had lots of award availability both up front and in coach. Too bad it's gone.

Delta or American could probably make this one work with a 752 if they really wanted to, overnighting it at CDG, but i don't think they will.
What now?
 
panamair
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 2):
Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Air France will further reduce JFK capacity, by substituting one of its B772ER flights on the route by the freed up A332.

Are you sure about this?

He is referring to the summer-only AF 17 (JFK-CDG) and AF12 (CDG-JFK). That will switch from a 772ER to an A332 starting in October 1. However AF17/12 disappear with the start of the winter schedule effective October 28.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 4):
He is referring to the summer-only AF 17 (JFK-CDG) and AF12 (CDG-JFK). That will switch from a 772ER to an A332 starting in October 1. However AF17/12 disappear with the start of the winter schedule effective October 28.

Ah, I see. So it's a decrease for the month of October.

But still interesting to note the slight increase (from the morning A332 to the evening A343) over what had been planned for the winter schedule. Is this the first time AF10/11 has been maintained year-round?
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
usairways85
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
PHL (6 weekly),

Well i thought in the past CDG-PHL was downgraded to 5x weekly, so i guess this news isn't too bad for PHL.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
Well i thought in the past CDG-PHL was downgraded to 5x weekly, so i guess this news isn't too bad for PHL.

It will drop to 5 weekly for the winter, yet it will already drop from the planned daily to 6 weekly during the month of october.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:54 am

Daylight flights to Europe are so difficult......eastern US to London daylight flights do have success, but when its comes to flights to contientnal European destinations, the extra hour or so of flying plus the extra hour of time zone differential is very critical and tends to diminish demand for the daylight service....not to mention that demand to London is much greater than any other transatlantic market. Its a shame, I thought that AF could maybe, possibly, beat the odds and find success with the daylight JFK-CDG service but it seems that is not the case; AF will join the history books with TW who also did not succeed with its daylight JFK-CDG service (TW tried more than once, I believe).

From time to time, there is discussion here at a.net concerning daylight services between the US and Europe, and many question why there are not more daylights services between the two continents; well, AF's experience directly answers this question .......the market is small, most pax (including higher yielding F, J and business travellers) in general prefer not to ""waste"" the day in the air but instead fly overnight, and the departure and arrival times for non-London daylight transatlantic flights are not very appealing.

Its too bad, I was hoping that AF would make this new service work.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:13 am

Hi Dutchjet. You may recall that you and I (among others) debated the likelihood of success of this flight on this thread back in March when it was first announced: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/3333545/

Although I'm a bit disappointed by this turn of events, I must give credit where credit's due...you were absolutely right!

I must also admit that I ended up undermining one of my own arguments....when planning an upcoming trip to Paris on AF, I considered booking the morning flight (which I do prefer in principle), but ultimately decided that I couldn't justify wasting the day in transit. Oh well, it's a moot point now. Again, well done by AF for giving it a try!
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 9):
Although I'm a bit disappointed by this turn of events, I must give credit where credit's due...you were absolutely right!

First, its cool that you remembered and are giving credit, thats really nice.

This is one of those times that I really did NOT want to be right, it would have been nice if AF found a niche market for the daylight flight. As discussed, its just very very difficult making the daylight flights work.

Regards.
 
mindscape
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Furthermore, Air France is reducing transatlantic capacity in October by introducing winter reduction one month earlier than expected. Diminished service effective October 01 includes flights to the following cities: BOS (1 daily only), ORD (6 weekly), DTW (6 weekly), PHL (6 weekly), SEA (5 weekly), and IAH (12 weekly).

Hello HB-IWC, why such a dicrease in the AF US frequencies before the winter schedule ? adjustments due to lower results ? equipment shortage ?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Its too bad, I was hoping that AF would make this new service work.

me too.
I will fly CDG-JFK on AF004 end of August, i already took this flight before and did enjoy the flight (no crowd at CDG and great A332) and the LF was somehow good. I guess AF004 is more popular than the inbound leg AF005; too bad AF can not keep this late departure to JFK...
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 11):
Hello HB-IWC, why such a dicrease in the AF US frequencies before the winter schedule ? adjustments due to lower results ? equipment shortage ?

October is always a "low" month. The high summer season is already over and AF decided this year to adjust the capacities already in October , instead of waiting the usual winter schedule, starting Oct.28 mostly to keep the highest possible load factor.

5 x Weekly to PHL is nothing surprising. That was already the case last winter, just as 6 x Weekly ORD, etc ...

Too bad for Daylight JFK-CDG ... especially for the late evening flight CDG-JFK AF004.
Actually, very few people believed that AF005 would be a success with this early morning schedule.
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:58 am

Too bad for JFK !
for BOS, does it stays with the B747 or is it "downgraded" to the A343 ? And wasn't BOS served by something like 10 weekly flights during the previous winters ?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting Mindscape (Reply 11):
too bad AF can not keep this late departure to JFK...

Why can't they and have a JFK-CDG depart around 1AM?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
usairways85
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:43 am

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 13):
for BOS, does it stays with the B747 or is it "downgraded" to the A343 ? And wasn't BOS served by something like 10 weekly flights during the previous winters ?

it appears during October the flt stays at a 747, didn't look at the rest of the winter
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
AF will join the history books with TW who also did not succeed with its daylight JFK-CDG service (TW tried more than once, I believe).

AF also tried more than once. They had a daytime flight for a while (maybe a year or two) using a 707 in the mid-1970s. I think it was dropped about the time Concorde went into service.
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 14):
Why can't they and have a JFK-CDG depart around 1AM?

such a flight will not bring anything new compared to what already exist. AF as one departing JFK at 11:00 pm and arriving at CDG at 11:50 am (D+1)
 
LH423
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 13):
And wasn't BOS served by something like 10 weekly flights during the previous winters

Yes. BOS was served 10x weekly in winters past on A340s. Last winter, AF opted for lesser frequencies on larger aircraft. Instead of the 10x weekly A340s for Winter 05/06 they went to 7x weekly 747s for Winter 06/07.

LH423
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AF022
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:10 am

The fact that AF introduced a morning departure CDG-JNB wiped out a large reason for taking the morning flight from JFK.
 
rafflesking
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting Usairways85 (Reply 6):
Well i thought in the past CDG-PHL was downgraded to 5x weekly, so i guess this news isn't too bad for PHL.

I seem to remember that with the winter downgrade last year, PHL got an equipment upgrade to the A343 (~50 extra seats). Am I mistaken?
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 18):
Yes. BOS was served 10x weekly in winters past on A340s. Last winter, AF opted for lesser frequencies on larger aircraft. Instead of the 10x weekly A340s for Winter 05/06 they went to 7x weekly 747s for Winter 06/07.

I know for sure AF B744's do not offer F, it's the same for he A343's? are they configured 2-class?
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
Charles79
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 21):
I know for sure AF B744's do not offer F, it's the same for he A343's? are they configured 2-class?

I believe you are right, A343s are configured in 2 class. If I'm not mistaken, there's only a small number of markets that still get F service like LAX, JFK, and IAD (at least in the US).

Btw, anybody know if there are going to be changes in the schedule for LAX? Currently they have 3x daily LAX-CDG (except Thursday when the A343 goes to PPT and Mondays when it goes back to CDG), and the LAX-PPT rotations FRI-SUN. Wonder if they are going to keep the PPT flights and drop one or two CDG ones. The A343s only do the PPT route; for the most part, LAX is served almost exclusively with 772s and 77Ws.

Cheers!

Charles
 
addi375
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:18 pm

AF004 CDG to JFK was doing ok load wise and to a lesser extent yeild wise, the problem was AF005 JFK - CDG, which this past summer was a life safer for repos for any pax who missed JFK CDG the nigh before.
AF010/AF011 will stick around longer but will get downgraded from the 774 to the 343

The AF005/AF004 combo will be back for the peak summer travel season
Walmart prices with Bloomies service...........
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 21):
I know for sure AF B744's do not offer F, it's the same for he A343's? are they configured 2-class?

yes, A343 are also a 2-class aircraft

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 22):
I believe you are right, A343s are configured in 2 class. If I'm not mistaken, there's only a small number of markets that still get F service like LAX, JFK, and IAD (at least in the US).

for the USA, add also IAH

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 22):
Wonder if they are going to keep the PPT flights and drop one or two CDG ones

AF has surely no intention to drop the PPT flight. A few years ago, I would have said that the same deal as for the NRT-NOU leg with Air Calin would have been done with TN for PPT-LAX. But now, with the bad relationship between AF & TN, this out of the question.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Addi375 (Reply 23):
The AF005/AF004 combo will be back for the peak summer travel season

Interesting...so it's a seasonal discontinuation rather than a complete cancellation. Well that's good news! Thanks for your post.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
semsem
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:28 pm

Are you sure that it was not originally put on for the "summer period" only and that they will put it back next summer? The 8.55 pm departure to New York is convenient. I have a friend who is taking it.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Semsem (Reply 26):
Are you sure that it was not originally put on for the "summer period" only and that they will put it back next summer?

Addi375's post (#23) indicates that it will be back next summer.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
rjpieces
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Addi375 (Reply 23):
The AF005/AF004 combo will be back for the peak summer travel season

Good to know!

Quoting Addi375 (Reply 23):
the problem was AF005 JFK - CDG, which this past summer was a life safer for repos for any pax who missed JFK CDG the nigh before.

Interesting...Any idea how many people on a daily basis this catered to? Are you talking about overbooking or missed connections or what?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
787kq
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:06 am

Why is it that NYC - LON sustains five daylight flights when NYC to Paris can't even hold one? I know the O&D market is larger, but more than five times larger? Is there onward connecting traffic beyond London and, if so, to where?
 
B752OS
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 29):
Why is it that NYC - LON sustains five daylight flights when NYC to Paris can't even hold one? I know the O&D market is larger, but more than five times larger? Is there onward connecting traffic beyond London and, if so, to where?

I to a surprised that NYC-Paris cannot sustain at least 1 daylight flight. Hasn't it always been true, that USA-LONDON daylight flights run pretty much all on O&D as they arrive in LONDON until almost 9 pm making onward connections very few. I was always surprised that daylight flights to Europe were not more popular.
 
HB-IWC
Topic Author
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting Addi375 (Reply 23):
The AF005/AF004 combo will be back for the peak summer travel season



Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 25):
Interesting...so it's a seasonal discontinuation rather than a complete cancellation. Well that's good news! Thanks for your post.



Quoting Semsem (Reply 26):
Are you sure that it was not originally put on for the "summer period" only and that they will put it back next summer? The 8.55 pm departure to New York is convenient. I have a friend who is taking it.



Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 27):
Addi375's post (#23) indicates that it will be back next summer.

AF004/005 was originally planned to run year round and AF is discontinuin the rotation because of poor performance, particularly of the JFK CDG sector. Furthermore, I have different information about the return of AF004/005: although it's been loaded in the reservations systems for next summer, the aircraft may well be used for a different mission.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 29):
Why is it that NYC - LON sustains five daylight flights when NYC to Paris can't even hold one?

I think BA operates two daylight JFK-LHR flights twice a week in addition to their daily morning flight, so even more than five sometimes!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
AirNZ
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 29):
Is there onward connecting traffic beyond London and, if so, to where?

It's London......so basically anywhere in the world you want to go. But yes, the O&D market to London is certainly very much larger than to Paris
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
dutchjet
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 29):
Why is it that NYC - LON sustains five daylight flights when NYC to Paris can't even hold one? I know the O&D market is larger, but more than five times larger? Is there onward connecting traffic beyond London and, if so, to where?



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Daylight flights to Europe are so difficult......eastern US to London daylight flights do have success, but when its comes to flights to contientnal European destinations, the extra hour or so of flying plus the extra hour of time zone differential is very critical and tends to diminish demand for the daylight service....not to mention that demand to London is much greater than any other transatlantic market. Its a shame, I thought that AF could maybe, possibly, beat the odds and find success with the daylight JFK-CDG service but it seems that is not the case; AF will join the history books with TW who also did not succeed with its daylight JFK-CDG service (TW tried more than once, I believe).

From time to time, there is discussion here at a.net concerning daylight services between the US and Europe, and many question why there are not more daylights services between the two continents; well, AF's experience directly answers this question .......the market is small, most pax (including higher yielding F, J and business travellers) in general prefer not to ""waste"" the day in the air but instead fly overnight, and the departure and arrival times for non-London daylight transatlantic flights are not very appealing.

Its too bad, I was hoping that AF would
 
sllevin
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:22 am

I know that as someone travelling in J or F, Daylight flights aren't very useful to me; I fundamentally lose an entire day to travel. A big part of the point of flying J/F is so that you can actually get a bit of sleep overnight.

Thus, I'd rather leave JFK in the evening, and arrive into Paris in the morning, rather than be away from home an extra day.

Steve
 
787kq
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RE: Air France To Discontinue Daylight JFK CDG

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 34):
Is there onward connecting traffic beyond London and, if so, to where?

Thanks

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