LHMark
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:12 am

Geographically, Dusseldorf and Cologne are very close to each other. Each city has a decent-sized airport. Yet DUS has blossomed into a hub for LTU, receives substantial international longhaul traffic, and will now have several LH transatlantic flights. Meanwhile, CGN sees mostly schengen and domestic traffic, even though Cologne has a greater population than Dusseldorf.

I just wonder how this came to be? Can anybody tell my why DUS outpaced CGN in growth?
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
aa61hvy
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting LHMARK (Thread starter):
DUS has blossomed into a hub for LTU

CGN is also a hub for UPS and TNT; FX is actually moving its German ops from FRA to CGN, so CGN is holding its own.
Go big or go home
 
aloges
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:26 am

CGN is an LCC hub and also the home base for our governmental air transport. Düsseldorf is much more business-like as far as I know which makes DUS more attractive for "legacy" carriers.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
N383PA
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:29 am

Well CGN has long haul flights as well as they have got CO on a daily EWR-CGN-EWR and they dont
fly to DUS even though they used to in the passed.
 
ACDC8
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:48 am

I would think that, even though CGN is not only a 30 minute drive south of DUS, DUS is still closer to the Ruhr Gebiet (Essen, Duisburg, Mulheim, Bochum, Dortmund) which is a very strong industrial and business center in Germany played a role in DUS's success over the years.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Viscount724
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 2):
CGN is an LCC hub

I believe LCCs now account for over 50% of operations at CGN. Not sure what the figure is at DUS but would expect it is significantly lower. The yield on many routes to/from DUS should thus be higher than CGN. I recall when LX served both DUS and CGN until about 3 years ago when they dropped CGN. I believe the primary reason was that the growth of LCC competition at CGN made DUS more profitable since there was less downward pressure on fares at DUS.
 
dutchjet
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Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:02 am

DUS is a much more business oriented market; Dusseldorf is headquarters to many German industrial and financial organizations, thus DUS sees more longhaul traffic. (Also, DUS is considered a ""wealthier"" city than CGN.) As pointed out by others, CGN has become a major station for many European LCCs which has split the market. Remember, both Cologne and Dusseldorf are also connected to FRA by high speed ""LH rail"" services....meaning that the rail transfer to FRA is considered a LH flight and you can check baggage directly through, the rail service does impact the longhaul services available at DUS and CGN. Its an interesting market.
 
mainMAN
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:19 am

The Ruhrgebiet is arguably amongst the three biggest urban areas of Europe and DUS has served it for decades. 10 years ago, Dortmund was tiny and Colgne/Bonn a fraction of the size of DUS.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 1):

CGN is also a hub for UPS and TNT; FX is actually moving its German ops from FRA to CGN, so CGN is holding its own.

As far as cargo goes, CGN has been a force for years. Passenger traffic is a different animal.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:19 am

Duesseldorf also used to be Germany's most "Japanese" town. Up to the reunification, practically all Japanese companies having business in Germany, had their headquarters there. After the reunification some of them moved to Berlin though.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:29 am

Remember the good ol' days when DUS saw the likes of SA)">AA, AC, SA)">CO,Ghana Airways, SA)">UA, SA as well as KL 737s? Now with DL, EK, NW and the annouonced expansion from LH DUS seems to be getting some of its former glory back. Although CGN is much closer for me I prefer DUS when I travel long haul. The "new" terminal is quite nice and I have rarely experienced serious delays for any reason.
A330 man.
 
Andie007
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:34 pm

Duesseldorf has a large community of business traveller.
Most of the BIG4 audit firms as well as tier 1 and 2 consultants and attorneys have large offices in the city.
Moveover, headquarters of ThyssenKrupp, E.on energy, Vodafone, Henkel, large insurance companies (Victoria, ARAG) are based in Dusseldorf.

The Ruhrgebiet (Duisburg, Essen, Bochum, Dortmund, etc.) with a polulation of Million+ is much better connected to DUS than to Conolge (airport based in the south of cologne).


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TriStar500
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 4):
I would think that, even though CGN is not only a 30 minute drive south of DUS, DUS is still closer to the Ruhr Gebiet (Essen, Duisburg, Mulheim, Bochum, Dortmund) which is a very strong industrial and business center in Germany played a role in DUS's success over the years.

You hit the nail right on the head.  Smile

Don't confuse the symptoms with the reasons - DUS is not bigger because of the kind of traffic it handles, these kinds of traffic have grown to this volume due to the slight advantage in terms of catchment area and accessibility.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
ehho
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:01 pm

With a metropolitan area as big as the Ruhregebiet and Rhineland, it's only fair that there are two large airports, one oriented on high yields and the other on low yields and freight. They both fill their own market niche quite well, and have healthy competition both from each other as well as other airports like FRA and DTM. Greater London is served by 6-7 airports and New York by 4, so it's a normal situation.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
Glareskin
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:51 pm

I think this is the best explaination:
http://www.library.uu.nl/kaartenzaal...esite/Beschrijvingen/AtlasBRD.html

Also, people on A.net ask why AMS is so important. Here the explaination:
http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/ERD/DB/mapdb/map_9.htm

You can also see that DUS, BRU, RTM, EIN, CGN, FRA, DTM and a lot of other airports in this populated area.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:05 pm

The question for me has always been why aren't DUS and CGN busier than they are? A population of 11 million would seem to be a basis for much busier airports than the region currently has.
 
TriStar500
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:30 pm

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 15):
The question for me has always been why aren't DUS and CGN busier than they are? A population of 11 million would seem to be a basis for much busier airports than the region currently has.

Don't forget that there are currently four airports (DUS, CGN, NRN, DTM) directly serving the area, with another 3 also sharing some of the passenger volume (FMO, PAD, MGL).

Passenger volumes in 2006

DUS: 16,6 Mio.
CGN: 9,9 Mio.
DTM: 2,0 Mio.
NRN: 0,6 Mio.
FMO: 1,6 Mio.
PAD: 1,3 Mio.
MGL: 0,1 Mio.

Up to 32,1 Mio. passangers in 2006 is not too bad considering that there is no real hub at any of these airports, which artificially inflates the pax number due to transfer passengers.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
Mennix
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:47 pm

There are several reasons DUS got bigger than CGN. However one of the most important is:

Traffic from DUS and north to the South of CGN is a nightmare since years.

However, CGN will grow much more in the future, than DUS. The reasons are quite easy:

Growth at DUS is very strong restricted. There are fixed numbers of flights allowed per year and no chance to encrease this. There is a very old contract between the airport and the villages around which does not allow to grow too much. There had been several court meetings and DUS always lost.

Also the runway at DUS cannot handle a fully loaded 747 or 777 when it is hot in the summer.

CGN has still a lof of capacity. Because of their big airfreight business all kind of planes ( not sure about the A 380, but this should be no item for the next years ) can go there with full load. CGN has actual no time limit for night flights. Highway repairs will be finished within the next 12 months, so traffic will be no problem, too. CO started with Cologne. Others will follow.
 
Glareskin
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Mennix (Reply 17):
However, CGN will grow much more in the future, than DUS.



Quoting Mennix (Reply 17):
CO started with Cologne. Others will follow.

Well, you better take a look at this: LH Longhaul Ex DUS 2008 (by Airevents Aug 14 2007 in Civil Aviation)

It looks more like it at DUS is becoming the third LH hub and maybe even a UA sub-hub (rumours are for a direct ORD or IAD flight) and will become the Rhein-Ruhr International Airport and CGN will pick-up LLC's and domestic (European) traffic and therefore get a growth in the number of flights as DUS will get a growth in pax.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
fraT
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Remember, both Cologne and Dusseldorf are also connected to FRA by high speed ""LH rail"" services....meaning that the rail transfer to FRA is considered a LH flight and you can check baggage directly through, the rail service does impact the longhaul services available at DUS and CGN

Just a small correction. Only CGN (and STR) have the so called AIRail Service with LH flight numbers and Check through. DUS also has a direct train service to FRA but not with a LH flight number.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:56 pm

Quoting FraT (Reply 19):
Only CGN (and STR) have the so called AIRail Service with LH flight numbers and Check through. DUS also has a direct train service to FRA but not with a LH flight number.

Actual flights between CGN and FRA are very limited due to AIRail (3x daily with 50-70 seaters). Flight traffic between DUS and FRA is actually quite intensive with up to 9x daily and 90-180seaters.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 6):
Dusseldorf is headquarters to many German industrial and financial organizations,

Ironically, Lufthansa Headquarters used to be at ... Cologne !
 
PADSpot
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
Lufthansa Headquarters used to be at ... Cologne !

It is still there.
 
Mennix
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 18):
Well, you better take a look at this: LH Longhaul Ex DUS 2008 (by Airevents Aug 14 2007 in Civil Aviation)

It looks more like it at DUS is becoming the third LH hub and maybe even a UA sub-hub (rumours are for a direct ORD or IAD flight) and will become the Rhein-Ruhr International Airport and CGN will pick-up LLC's and domestic (European) traffic and therefore get a growth in the number of flights as DUS will get a growth in pax.

I know. But the potential growth is DUS is very limited. Not at all enough space and slots to make it a third hub. As I heard, they keep the Privat Air DUS-ORD but will cancel the DUS-EWR fligths.

Of course you can replace some of the European flights with Transatlantic, but you have to fill them. What DUS really would need is an extention of their slots to existing capacity. Because of noice reduction DUS is not allowed even to fill their full capacity. And be sure. This will not change within the next 20 years. The story runs since 40 years. I live here and here the news on a nearly daily base.

DUS - from location side - would be great being a third hub. However, DUS cannot handle really big planes and is very slot limited.

There had been discussions in the past about a cooperation between CGN and DUS. This would make so much sense, but both cities are strong rivals and the local majors cannot look further than their own city-border. It's a shame.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting Mennix (Reply 23):
DUS - from location side - would be great being a third hub. However, DUS cannot handle really big planes and is very slot limited

In fact, legal issues are preventing DUS from growing. They signed a treaty decades ago which basically makes it impossible to expand. They cannot get another runway, nor can they get more slots.

CGN in fact was a "loser" until they got their new CEO Michael Garvens in 2002. Before that, cargo did well (it is one of the few airports in Germany which has a 3800m runway and is open 24h/7d a week), but passenger traffic declined, because the government left Bonn, and CGN was not thought to be good enough for international traffic.

Now, things are changing. CGN has a direct Continental connection (CO 111) to EWR, and the route is doing well (it is still a 757, of course, but it does not seem that they will cancel the connection again). Also, some routes to Iran exist.

Apart from that, CGN became a big player in the LCC market. Not really for EZY, although they serve them, but the german LCCs Tuifly (HLX) and Germanwings got into a very succesful market there. I think EZY and FR were a little bit too late in this market, because it seems to be a sustainable growth in this segment.

Also CGN got a railway station in 2005 (they always had a direct Autobahn connection), which also helps it to grow.

Nevertheless, of the 20 million people living in this region, 15 million live closer to DUS. I think this explains why DUS is larger. Also, you can check in at cologne railway station for Lufthansa and take a ICE train to FRA, this only takes 45 minutes, as the train goes 300 km/h

I think both airports are doing well. The region really needs more intercontinental traffic.

Michael
 
ehho
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 21):
Ironically, Lufthansa Headquarters used to be at ... Cologne !

I'm looking at it right now from my office and it's still here.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
Glareskin
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting Mennix (Reply 23):
I know. But the potential growth is DUS is very limited. Not at all enough space and slots to make it a third hub. As I heard, they keep the Privat Air DUS-ORD but will cancel the DUS-EWR fligths.

Again take a look at the link. LH upgrades DUS-EWR and DUS-ORD to daily A330 and will introduce an A330 flight to YYZ from may 2008. And again: potential growth in flight movements may be limited at DUS but they seem to be moving towards more high yield widebody international flights. So, even if the amount of flights is not growing or even decrease, the amount of passengers as well as the airlines profitability could grow. At the same time CGN is picking up more domestic and LLC and some int'l flights. Growth for both major NWR airports. Good news anyway.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
HT
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 26):
LH upgrades DUS-EWR and DUS-ORD to daily A330 and will introduce an A330 flight to YYZ from may 2008. A

Slight correction here: All flights will be operated by A340's (A343) in a three-class layout.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Is DUS Bigger Than CGN?

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting Mennix (Reply 17):

Also the runway at DUS cannot handle a fully loaded 747 or 777 when it is hot in the summer.

In reality, I doubt DUS gets hot enough to do that more than one or two times a year. 3000m at only 147' elevation is plenty for pretty much any operation you need to do out of DUS.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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