flyPBA
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A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:31 am

The A380 is scheduled to operate into three West Coast airports ... LAX / SFO / YVR.


What happens if any of these are closed due to weather or other issue? I would imagine that it would be easy to divert LAX to SFO and vice versa ... but what about YVR? Would they fly to Moses Lake in Washington? Or could they actually fly into SEA/BFI/PAE? Can those airports' infrastructure support the A380 (weight and dimensions)


Just curious?

thanks

G
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:43 am

It can fly anywhere a 747 can, so it should be no problem. It may not be able to have a gate, but it can land and take off there.
 
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United_fan
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:46 am

VCV is close to LAX,not much in the way of hotels and the like,though. Obviosuly OAK handles UPS 747's , so there's an SFO alternative. SEA is close to YVR,so is PAE.
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Boeing7E7
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 1):
It can fly anywhere a 747 can, so it should be no problem. It may not be able to have a gate, but it can land and take off there.

Depends upon runway loading characteristics.
 
AA737-823
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:48 am

Anchorage. We've already built three parking spaces for her (under the assumption that FedEx would be bringing them in... multi-million dollar mistake) and taxiways.

Bring 'er on.
 
COSPN
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:53 am

Is IND still going ahad with an A380 Pax Gate and freight parking (also mainly FedEx) and a bit of back up for ORD..

Seems IND and ANC should get some kind of refund fron FedEx for spending millions for nothing
 
Viscount724
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting FlyPBA (Thread starter):
The A380 is scheduled to operate into three West Coast airports ... LAX / SFO / YVR.

Which carrier has announced plans to operate the A380 to YVR? I can't recall anything but may have missed it.

Re YVR diversions, YYC or YEG are sometimes used as alternates for YVR and both should be able to handle the A380.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:07 am

We all know that ATL said no to any A380 service and diversions, which was discussed in another thread about a year or so ago.

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dl767captain
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:08 am

i know it can land anywhere a 747 can but dont the taxi ways and the rest of the airport have to have some modifications to allow the A380 to move around?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:14 am

SLC runway 16L-34R could take the A380, but the west runway (16R-34L) must cover a taxiway viaduct that I'm not sure could handle the weight. Any of the two major runways at SLC can handle the 747, and have done so on a diversionary basis from time to time:

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as739x
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 1):

Not true at all. It can fly there,Yes. Be handled, No.

Runway length: Yes
Taxiways: May not be strong enough
Jetbridge: Most likely no
Airstairs: Most likely no
Fuel Truck: Maybe can or can't handle the A380

I diverstion airport would most likely need to be another international airport as most flights will be international and need Customs. Its not just that easy to land somewhere, fuel, and go.

On the west coast most likely SFO and LAX will be diversion cities for each other. YVR could be added to this, though could be a Customs issue.

The East coast I think is well covered with airports that can handle the bird.

Quoting FlyPBA (Thread starter):

BFI: I don;t think the taxiway could handle it
PAE: Not sure.
YVR: I think would be used for a diversion city if a A380 was going to SEA

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LAXintl
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:35 am

ONT is ready and able to handle the A380.

Minimal changes were required and were completed with assumption UPS would be operating the type on Asia services.
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a3xx900
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airpor

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:34 am

While YVR is quite a distance away from LAX and SFO, I think it should be no problem to file VYR as second alternative airport for SFO or LAX (first alternative would be either LAX or SFO of course). The A380 is a loooong range aircraft and it should be able to land in SFO even with all the extra, holding, alternate, reserve, contingency fuel planned for an eventual diversion to YVR. It's just about 730 NM distance. No big deal.

[Edited 2007-08-15 04:44:05]
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aa61hvy
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
under the assumption that FedEx would be bringing them in... multi-million dollar mistake) and taxiways.

It could still happen, just not anytime soon..FedEx has not completely ruled out getting A380's...
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ONTFlyer
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 11):
ONT is ready and able to handle the A380.

 checkmark 

I would think that LAS would be another viable option should LAX and ONT be unsuitable for any reason. For SFO, perhaps SJC or SMF?

ONTFlyer
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WingedMigrator
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airpor

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:11 pm

If it's a diversion, the aircraft won't have to depart at anywhere near MTOW to reach its final destination. It will land (by definition) at a weight below max landing weight -- 386 tonnes -- and probably take off at somewhere below that as well. So, a diverted A380 will likely weigh less than a 77W at MTOW... and it rides on 20 wheels instead of 12, with almost twice the wing area.

Bottom line: if the diversion airport can handle a 777, any concerns about pavement loading or taxiway bridges are baseless.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 10):
Airstairs: Most likely no

What do you suggest... knotted rope? Seriously, just how would airstairs not work?

Quoting AS739X (Reply 10):
Its not just that easy to land somewhere, fuel, and go.

That I can agree with, but a 747 would cause identical concerns. It's not like the A380 is unique in a diversion scenario.
 
Gemuser
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 10):
Not true at all. It can fly there,Yes. Be handled, No.

Runway length: Yes
Taxiways: May not be strong enough
Jetbridge: Most likely no
Airstairs: Most likely no
Fuel Truck: Maybe can or can't handle the A380

WRONG! Assuming the airport can take a B747.

Runway: yes
Taxiways: are strong enough, The A380 has a LOWER pavement loading than a B747, so strength is not a problem. Taxiway turning radius MAYBE a problem with some turns, but if an airport see regular B747 traffic its main taxiways will be suitable. If it does not there is still most likely a route or routes that will work for a diversions.
Jetbridge: If it fits a B747 it will fit an A380. You might have problems with the aircraft fouling the next gate, but a remote stand will work.
Airstairs: Most definately yes, what do you think was used in SYD? QF B747 airstairs!
Fuel truck: Once again was not a problem in SYD.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 9):
the west runway (16R-34L) must cover a taxiway viaduct that I'm not sure could handle the weight.

Indeed this could be a problem, depending on its ABSOLUTE weight limit. But in general if its OK for a B747 it should work for diversions, in most cases.

What is about some people and the A380 using XYZ airport? Airbus has repeatedly stated that it can use ANY airport a B747 can, unless the airport has an absolute weight limited structure it can't avoid. There is a complete airport compatibility manual on their site, that has more details than anybody, except maybe an airport civil engineer, could possibly want!

Gemuser
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RayChuang
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:13 pm

For SFO, the following diversion civilian airports are likely available:

Los Angeles International Airport
Oakland International Airport
Mather Field in Rancho Cordova, CA
McClellan Field in North Highlands, CA

It's extremely unlikely they'll use Sacramento International Airport due to runways only being 7300 feet long. Because Mather and McClellan used to be USAF bases, they have long and wide enough runways to easily accommodate the A380-800--after all, they had to accommodate the B-52 bomber!

An A380 could land at Travis Air Force Base near Fairfield, CA, but only under the most dire circumstances due to Travis being a highly active USAF base.
 
flyPBA
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:23 pm

I was under the impression that the Taxi-way clearances at SEA are inadequate for the A380 ...

As for YVR ... that is the only airport in the Pacific NW (with the exception of ANC) that will most likely ever get the A380
 
ikramerica
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 1):
It can fly anywhere a 747 can, so it should be no problem.

A diversion airport must be able to handle the passengers including hotel facilities, and since an A380 is larger than a 747 in capacity, it could exclude some airports around the world. This is one of the factors in ETOPS, and it's why some airports must be excluded from the list for VLAs.

But this isn't an issue in CA, since any airport that is diversion capable is also going to have the ability to service the passengers many times over, and because the diversions would be very close to the O or D airport.

ONT, SMF, OAK, SJC should all suffice. FAT as well, since the plane won't be at MTOW.
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UPS707
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
Mather Field in Rancho Cordova, CA
McClellan Field in North Highlands, CA

If one lands at these fields, I'll be flying across town with my camera!  Smile I'd love to see one here one day and who knows... maybe we'll get it. If I recall correctly, we got an Air China B744 at SMF last year , so who knows...
 
MX77W
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting ONTFlyer (Reply 14):
I would think that LAS would be another viable option should LAX and ONT be unsuitable for any reason. For SFO, perhaps SJC or SMF?

ONTFlyer

Agreed, LAS's runways and taxiways (as far as I am aware) are more than able to handle the A380, in fact, the currently under construction T3 will have some A380 parking spots. Currently, I think probably the holding pads in front of T2 would be able to accomodate her, or if all else fails, she could always go the the Cargo Area, and LAS is always a good diversion point for westbound flights either coming from Europe or the Middle East and heading to LAX (LH, EK, AF?, VS?)

My 2 Cents

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tdscanuck
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting FlyPBA (Thread starter):
but what about YVR?

I would assume they divert to YXX first. It can handle a C-5 Galaxy so I'm pretty sure it can take an A380. And it's international, so you don't have a Customs problem.

Quoting FlyPBA (Thread starter):
Or could they actually fly into SEA/BFI/PAE?

SEA could do it...might have to clear some stuff out of the way or use an odd taxi routing though. PAE could handle it but only on the ramp between the main runway, the Boeing factory, and the Goodrich hangers...most of the rest has an absolute weight limit that's too low, I think. PAE and BFI both limited terminal facilities so they're probably not the first choices.

Tom.
 
RedChili
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 9):
the west runway (16R-34L) must cover a taxiway viaduct that I'm not sure could handle the weight.

You, and others on this thread, keep forgetting that an A380 being diverted will be low on fuel, so it will actually be lighter than a fully fueled and loaded 747. If the taxiways can take a fully fueled and loaded 747, they can also support the weight of an arriving A380.
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LAXintl
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:59 am

Funnily enough, in addition to all the previously completed tarmac work, just today the LA City Council directed LAWA staff to look into the feasibility of modifying two passenger gates at either one of ONT terminals to accommodate the the A380.
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Coronado990
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:24 am

Hmmm...I don't see anyone mentioning San Diego-Lindbergh.  Wink
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United_fan
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:09 am

I read that A380's will not be allowed in LAS,at least loaded ones due to undeground tunnels not being strong enough. There was questions about VS using them in there.
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AirframeAS
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 25):

SAN is a definate no, IMO. Not very much room at all.
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474218
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:08 am

Many commerical flights have diverted to Edwards AFB and its runway can easily handle a A380. I remember a Pan Am L-1011 that was scheduled to land at LAX but could not lower the flaps and diverted to Edwards because of the extra landing roll that would be required with no flaps.
 
aveugle
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 25):
Hmmm...I don't see anyone mentioning San Diego-Lindbergh.

Lol I doubt we can handle it although there has been 747s in the past.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
Many commerical flights have diverted to Edwards AFB and its runway can easily handle a A380.

Took the words out of my mouth. Its definetly long enough. :p (04/22 are atleast)
 
Marcus
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting Aveugle (Reply 29):
Lol I doubt we can handle it although there has been 747s in the past.

How about TIJ?.....it has seen 747's and An124's in the past.
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Coronado990
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
SAN is a definate no, IMO. Not very much room at all.

Well, why not. It wouldn't be the first time a double decker has landed at SAN...

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lightsaber
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:33 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 16):
Airstairs: Most definately yes, what do you think was used in SYD? QF B747 airstairs!

It amazes me how many people don't realize most airstairs sized for a wide body can reach the doors of an A380. Heck, the project I'm on has a couple that were sized to reach the rear door of a nose heavy 747F. Its not like they have to reach the upper deck (do recall the internal A380 stairs a la the 747 upper deck on a 'grand scale').

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):

Seems IND and ANC should get some kind of refund fron FedEx for spending millions for nothing

Verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they were written on.  Wink

Its not like ANC won't see an occasional A380 diversion. Eventually there will be an A380F... so its just the ROI.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
I remember a Pan Am L-1011 that was scheduled to land at LAX but could not lower the flaps and diverted to Edwards because of the extra landing roll that would be required with no flaps.

3 miles of runway baby! Not to mention a huge over-run margin on both sides of the runway (gear would break, but enough dirt to stop anything before you hit something structural on the ground). People forget Edwards is mandated to be ready to support 'the mother of all LAX closures.' The north side of the airfield is "unclassified." Plenty of parking for aircraft. Now, in a dire emergency with huge quantities of impacted aircraft, they would move all of the military aircraft to the south side of the field. Thus opening up quite a few dozen parking spots. (Heck, you could probably pack in over a hundred planes!)

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 25):
Hmmm...I don't see anyone mentioning San Diego-Lindbergh.

dude, if the pilot puts up a pair of fuzzy dice they wouldn't even be able to see the runway!  Wink

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):

It's extremely unlikely they'll use Sacramento International Airport due to runways only being 7300 feet long.

I'm curious as to why? 7300 feet should be within the landing requirements. A short reposition flight to SFO wouldn't take 7300 feet to take off (unloaded). Since we're talking diversions... its possible (but OAK would be a *much* better choice).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
A diversion airport must be able to handle the passengers including hotel facilities,

hotel? A hanger full of cots, blankets, and port-o-poties technically meets the guidelines.  Wink But not first choice!

Lightsaber
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Osprey88
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airpor

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:48 am

I'm surprised no one had mentioned NUQ!

As for Bay area airports, I would think that diversions for an A380 would go in this order: SJC, OAK, NUQ, Travis AFB.

I bet RNO could handle an A380 as well, and if that failed their is always trusty NFL.

Quoting Marcus (Reply 30):
How about TIJ?.....it has seen 747's and An124's in the past.

Probably an excellent alternative to SAN.

Also, why hasn't anyone thought of NUC or NSI as diversion airports in the LA area for the A380? NSI could almost certainly handle an A380, it is 10,000ft long and 194ft wide as could NUC, which is 9301ft long and 200ft wide! Admittedly, customs facilities and a the terminal area would be a bit lacking, but I suppose these could be used as last ditch fields if need be.

KNUC=San Clemente Island Naval Auxiliary Landing Field
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KNUC
KNSI=San Nicolas Island Naval Outlying Field
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KNSI

[Edited 2007-08-16 03:49:07]
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jbernie
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:51 am

I would be under the assumption that if an A380 were to need an alternate for some kind of emergency, they would pick the nearest appropriate field to land and then they can have fun figuring out what to do next later on... if SFO is closed for weather and this is known well in advance then it is easier to figure out what to do (go LAX).

If you have an A380 with a dire emergency.. say a fire or fuel issues... then it is more important to get the jet on the ground than on the ground at the most suitable airport. Given all the diversions on 9/11, how many of the airports were suited to the sudden massive influx of 747s etc. Not all of them, but you make do with what you have and do the best you can. If your pax are crying foul about being stuck on board and an airport not suited for the 380, then they have got their priorities way out of whack given the alternate could be the jet crashed with no survivors.

Bit of a rant i know, but also some reality.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:55 am

Commercial airlines generally dont bank on military fields for diversion planning -- neither does the military.

In a dire emergency one can surely put the plane down where needed, however airlines would rather plan an airport with known commercial vendors, and avoid the added red tape a surprise visit to a military base would pose.
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Indy
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RE: A380 North America West Coast Diversion Airports

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 5):
Is IND still going ahad with an A380 Pax Gate

IND neither has nor had a plan to have an A380 pax gate. The plan is to use a regular gate and its all 500+ people out through a normal gate.
Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air

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