airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:11 pm

I look at service from Sioux Falls (SD) and Fargo (ND) and for the population and the passengers they handle. They seem to be a little underserved. Both cities have the same airlines:

Northwest
Delta
United
Allegiant

So technically it is mainline Northwest, a few weekly flights on Allegiant, and mostly express CR2, CR7 service on United, and CR2 on Delta. (plus mainline in FSD for United starting in September) But with as many passengers traveling east to New York, Detroit, etc. But no low fare carriers or even Legacy Carriers (AA, CO,) dont try to use the Ejets to places such as, ORD, STL, LGA, EWR. I know that DL is wanting to start a second daily flight daily on a CR2 between FSD-ATL and DL also might start CVG-FAR.

So i am wondering what airline would possibly step up and try this service out, and why CO, AA, havent started Regional service to cities. But going west:

Frontier - Very Possible Dash-400 or E170 service FSD-DEN to compete with UA mainline during Sept-Jan.
America West/Us Airways- Somewhat thinkable. They had FSD-PHX service at one time.
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:15 pm

United Airlines is going mainline to Sioux Falls. Air Wisconsin is out. I believe it's happening this fall. IAM workers are being recalled. If there are still openings after the recall, then the Air Wisconsin folks will be offered jobs. Don't know if all the flights will be mainline, but at least one will be year round, so the IAM contract requires it being staffed by United employees, not contracted.
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
764
Posts: 486
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 6:34 pm

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:02 pm

As to FAR, I don't quite see the potential for significant growth. CO won't come because NW serves the airport quite well through MSP. AA would make sense, but the only route reasonably feasible would be FAR-ORD and that would mean direct competition with UA (Express), which neither airline is going to be happy about. Keep in mind that FAR is very much a high yield market and one of the most expensive airports to fly out of or into in the U.S.. Competition would change that and while that'd be great for passengers, the airlines would suffer.

As far as I am concerned, I wish that UA would go mainline in FAR, because the notorious delays, cancellations and baggage issues on UA Express are extremely annoying. In fact, I don't see why UA shouldn't run two 319s a day to ORD and DEN each, supplemented by one to IAD and perhaps one to SFO. That would also allow them to aadd first class to FAR. Right now many people are going on NW, because they have been mishandled by UA Express. Not everybody flies longhaul out of ORD or IAD like I do. Since longhaul service on UA is much superior to NW (Eco+), I am willing to take the UA Express mess on the FAR segments. But for dometic flights I'd rather not.

Other than that, the only real potential I see would be for a DL flight (mainline I hope) to ATL. There is huge demand for between FAR and the southeast, especially in the winter. Or maybe NW could add service to MEM or DTW.

One airport that REALLY needs some competition is GFK though. Nw is the only airline serving Grand Forks and it would be really good to see UA put an end to that monopoly.
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:11 pm

Well Fargo gets 6 First Class Seats on 2 flights to Denver. lol. If they started UA mainline they wouldnt use two 319's. They would start off with the 733 and 735 like they are with FSD-DEN and FSD-ORD.

As for Fargo and Frontier, Sioux Falls has a better chance, in my opinion i guess really because Denver is the second most flown direct to market from Sioux Falls. What I found funny was that:

1. Two Days Before Frontier was to announce the first four Dash-400 destinations, United added mainline to Sioux Falls
2. United then added 1 More CR7 to the FSD-DEN schedule.

But I still think that FSD could support that Dash-400 service. But what makes me nervous is that Sioux City might be to close to Sioux Falls to get the Dash-400 service, but yet OMA-DEN on F9 is just about the same distance too.
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 3):
What I found funny was that:

1. Two Days Before Frontier was to announce the first four Dash-400 destinations, United added mainline to Sioux Falls
2. United then added 1 More CR7 to the FSD-DEN schedule.

I thought it was United doing some chest-pounding, to give Frontier some grief.  Smile

Quoting Airbusaddict (Thread starter):
Frontier - Very Possible

Anything is possible, of course. But Frontier has so many other choices available for the Q400, I am not sure why they would serve SUX and FSD.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:26 pm

Pretty much!

Quote:
I thought it was United doing some chest-pounding, to give Frontier some grief.

Look at the close proximity of SUX and OMA. OMA gets CR7, which is same capacity, but what about E170 FSD-DEN service. That would set off United probably, but most likely the Dash-400 is a better bet than the Embrarer.
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18253
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 5):
OMA gets CR7, which is same capacity, but what about E170 FSD-DEN service.

OMA gets Frontier mainline as well, doesn't it?

Frontier had offers from both FSD and SUX. From memory, the FSD offer was pretty good, so there must be other reasons they went to SUX.

Maybe they saw an under-served market? Maybe they preferred a no-compete route? Maybe they didn't want to get into another fight with United? Maybe they knew United was going mainline?

Anything is possible.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:39 pm

Yes, OMA gets the A318. FSD now has about a 350,000 grant, but F9 went down to SUX since all it was was 5 daily flights SUX-MSP.
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4602
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:31 pm

HP did have PHX-FSD but really, who wants to fly that long in an RJ? FAR would be even further, no pun intended. It's hard to imagine US serving either at the moment, especially with mainline metal, since the upper midwest is literally the furthest point from any of our hubs. Maybe the E190 will someday see these markets but for now I believe they are best served from the airlines with nearby hubs - UA and NW.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:28 am

Didn't AA offered F-100 service between FAR and ORD in the early 90's ?

Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
As to FAR, I don't quite see the potential for significant growth.

 checkmark  Isn't the population in North Dakota continuing to decrease?
 
HPRamper
Posts: 4602
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Isn't the population in North Dakota continuing to decrease?

If so, it's an overall trend. Fargo/Moorhead itself is a fast-growing metropolitan area.
 
stapleton
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:57 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 6):
Frontier had offers from both FSD and SUX. From memory, the FSD offer was pretty good, so there must be other reasons they went to SUX.

FSD had a good offer but SUX had a better offer .... A LOT BETTER. Money talks. This is really a do or die proposition for SUX. They have bet the farm pretty much because they have to in order to compete with FSD and OMA. If they didn't put up the money, it is questionable whether SUX would continue to have airline service. Compare the following boardings for FSD and SUX from 2006 and 1995

FSD 369,760 (2006) 288,113 (1995)
SUX 33,195 (2006) 117,137 (1995)
 
tripleboom
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:57 pm

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 7):
Yes, OMA gets the A318.

Actually OMA gets the gambit of F9 A/C. 0600 orignator is an A319, next is an ERJ, peak season there is a middle A319, then a CRJ, and finally an A318 departure before the 319 comes back to RON.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:21 am

I dream of the day CO flies EWR-FSD and maybe IAH-FSD.
EWR-DSM is another route I would like to see.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 1894
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:16 am

I could see AAEagle starting FSD-DFW someday IF they ever get some more planes. Its a shame that when AA downsized STL, FSD saw its AAEagle service shifted to ORD, and then dropped all together (I think it was because of the capacity contraints there). Too bad if STL wasn't banked a little more maybe FSD-STL on AA would be an option again.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13):
EWR-DSM is another route I would like to see

CO did try tht route a few years back but it unfortunatley flopped. DSM - NYC service is now covered by AAEagle to LGA, which appears to be doing pretty good.

Quoting 764 (Reply 2):
Other than that, the only real potential I see would be for a DL flight (mainline I hope) to ATL. There is huge demand for between FAR and the southeast, especially in the winter. Or maybe NW could add service to MEM or DTW

if DL ever started FAR-ATL, it would probably be most likely with the CRJ. could possibly happen now that they have axed some cities like ERI, BGM, et all. I don't see NW adding MEM from FAR, I am sure it would be nice, but I would think cities like GRB, CID, RST and FWA would see MEM service on NW before FAR.
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:29 am

Very Possible Routes for FSD:
Allegiant- Phoenix
Midwest- Milwaukee

Possible Routes for FSD:
Northwest- Memphis, Detroit
Us Airways- Charlotte, Philadelphia
Frontier- Denver
American- Dallas/Ft. Worth, St. Louis, New York
Delta- New York
Continental- Newark, Cleveland, Houston
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
OBSMGR
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:40 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 15):
Very Possible Routes for FSD:
Allegiant- Phoenix
Midwest- Milwaukee

Possible Routes for FSD:
Northwest- Memphis, Detroit
Us Airways- Charlotte, Philadelphia
Frontier- Denver
American- Dallas/Ft. Worth, St. Louis, New York
Delta- New York
Continental- Newark, Cleveland, Houston

I certainly admire your optimism, but I think there is some items you need to consider here.

1. Northwest kicked around the idea of DTW several times, there just wasnt sufficient benefit to having an aircraft fly over MSP to DTW to make many of the same connections. I suppose MEM could possibly work, but given the geographic proximity of MSP to FSD, its still an attractive alternative. With Compass E175s and XJs CRJ-900s coming online, I would expect to see more routes from MSP into markets previously served primarily/exclusively from MEM- which would cast further shadow on the idea of FSD-MEM.

2. American has been in FSD twice, they've learned the economics are not great, and the ERJ isnt the aircraft you need in a price-sensitive market like that. The CRJ isnt any better really, and MD-80s arent going to happen. It's not that money cant be made in FSD, its that MORE money can be made elsewhere with the same expense.

3. CO has a pretty good thing going with it's code placed on the NW and DL flights into FSD. Would be very difficult to get into that market with a schedule that would make an airline an attractive option to UA or NW without comitting a sizeable risk on return. There is a considerable market developing between FSD and Latin America, so that is one bright spot that would seem to make IAH look attractive. It's just that though, a developing market- it's not there yet, and even when it is, that traffic alone isnt going to support service by itself.

4. US I think has the same kind of deal in FSD as CO does, via the UA codeshare. Granted, they have a ton of RJs and could plug something in there- but HP let PHX run until the subsidy was out, then dropped it, and US was in there once before to MCI. Neither PHL or CLT is real high on the O&D list for FSD (from what I remember), so Im not sure what advantage they would have, unless your going to the east coast, a connection through MSP, CVG, or even ORD makes more sense.

5. New York. Well, what city wouldnt like to have service to NYC? I think there is a bit of a market here, in-fact it is even in the top 5 (or at least it was when I last saw it). Unfortunately, in a market the size of FSD's, with about 400,000 annual passengers (I think another post through that number out), you'd be looking at about 35,000 to NYC. (Im guessing a bit here, but Chicago, Denver, and even Washington DC were higher than NYC on the list I saw, and by a considerable margin). Figure that out to daily service, and it's not much... (Less than enough to fill 3 E135s a day if every NYC passenger flew those flights exclusively). Now, I recognize that 3 E135s does represent AN opportunity, however, the schedule would likely not be attractive to business traffic, who would still have better connectivity through ORD or MSP (even CVG) where there more options to meet their schedule. Now, as a last comment on this, I know Im leaving out connecting traffic here, but Im doing so because much like PHL or CLT, I dont think NYC would be attractive from a connection standpoint- especially given their ATC issues of late.

6. Frontier could happen, but they're putting Republic/Lynx in SUX, I think thats a bad omen for FSD- not that FSD will suffer, I think they are well covered with UA service to DEN.

7. I think Midwest is a bit of a reach myself... They have a great product, but it's pretty limited in scope. Im not sure what benefit FSD would bring to their route map. It certainly could happen, but I get the feeling Midwest wants to strengthen it's revenue stream pretty bad, and Im always leary about how much money is in a market where airports/cities are actively ingaged in luring more carriers. My feeling is that if the carriers there now were carrying away buckets of money, you'd be beating away new entrants with sticks.

I dont want to rain on your parade or anything, but I think these are realistic points. Frankly, I think FSD has done pretty well for itself and has pretty decent air service for a city it's size. UA/NW/DL have the legacy side of things covered nicely, and Allegiant is working wonders with the leisure business there. They've got a decent set of options and I would have to assume the airlines that are there today are carving out a little money now (unlike 2003). I just dont think the well is bottomless....I think FSD is at the right balance now.

One last point- While I think this too is a stretch, Im somewhat surprised you didnt throw the possibility of UA service to IAD out there. It's well within the range of RJ equipment like the CR7 or E170, and with UAs growth in ORD and DEN (as well as further development of the IAD hub), it would seem the next move.
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:58 pm

OBSMGR, that was a great post. congrats.
You are right, I guess i have never really known that IAD was a UA hub b4 (whoops).
My guess for two possible next routes out of FSD are:

Washington Dulles - United Express using either Go Jet CR7 two daily flights, or a Shuttle America E170 two daily flights from FSD to IAD. You made a great point OBSMGR. DEN is getting two daily 737's on FSD DEN (bringing more seats in, but 1 less daily flights) which most likely will come back with a CR7 or CR2. And I think starting in November they are starting Mainline service to ORD as well. Now if United started service to Washington Dulles with the E170's, do you think that Northwest would do a Des Moines type thing, and add a CR2 to National? That would bring up some competition.

It is really tough on the second choices for me, but:
Dallas/Ft. Worth or Memphis, but i really have no explanation for that:

In a binder of airport planning and stuff the airport in FSD gave me to look at (this is maybe 1-2 years old) but the top ten destinations in order are:
1. Las Vegas, NV (Served by Allegiant Air)
2. Denver, CO (United Mainline (Sept. 6) and United Express)
3. Chicago, IL (United Mainline (Possibly Nov.) and United Express)
4. Phoenix, AZ (Allegiant Air (October 25th)
5. Washington D.C. Maybe United and Northwest
6. Minneapolis, MN (Northwest)
7. Orlando, FL (Allegiant Air)
8. New York, NY Very Slight Chance American Eagle
9. Dallas, TX Possible American Eagle
10. Atlanta (Delta Connection, Adding Second Daily Flight, not announced yet)
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4446
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:23 pm

Fargo will have an announcement about Allegiant today.
Airport officials plan to hold a news conference at 9 a.m. today to announce whether Allegiant Air is expanding service in Fargo.
http://www.in-forum.com/Business/articles/176448
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
OBSMGR
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:40 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 17):
do you think that Northwest would do a Des Moines type thing, and add a CR2 to National?

DCA-FSD would fall outside the perimeter for DCA service, so unless an exemption was put in place for the marker (Act of Congress), it wouldn't work. Besides that, slots in DC are always an issue, and a CRJ from DCA-FSD could run into payload issues due to winds.... I would have to say that DCA service probably would have been most likely when Daschle was in office... now that he's gone, I think the chances of seeing that service are a lot slimmer.
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
sw733
Posts: 5306
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting Airbusaddict (Thread starter):
Fargo (ND)



Quoting Airbusaddict (Thread starter):
Sioux Falls (SD)

I think 4 is a pretty good number as far as airlines go for metro areas of 175,000 (Fargo) and 225,000 (Sioux Falls). For example, Wichita (KS) has a metro area of 600,000 and a giant aviation industry, and has 9 airlines...that seems about right for fitting the needs of the people.
 
charlienorth
Posts: 1054
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:24 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Didn't AA offered F-100 service between FAR and ORD in the early 90's ?

Sure did, 2 round trips a day FAR-ORD they also did 2X ORD-FSD
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 15):
Allegiant- Phoenix

Just announced, Phoenix or Fargo in the Winter....The winner is____________________. Should be a winner, based just on the number of ND plates I see here in the Mesa area during snowbird season.
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:37 am

Saw on the news a little while ago.

United and Northwest are battling it out to be the top carrier at FSD. The Leaderboard is:
1. United
2. Northwest
3. Delta
4. Allegiant (if Delta doesnt start adding more FREQ or flights, G4 will go third again)

I have an odd question, but it is possible:

Are airlines not adding service to FSD partially because there are no gates available and the airport isnt considering making airlines share?
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
Mir
Posts: 19107
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting OBSMGR (Reply 16):
Now, I recognize that 3 E135s does represent AN opportunity

Can an E135 even make it NYC-FSD?

Not everywhere can have NYC service. At a time when what is really needed in the NYC area is a decrease in the number of regional jets to minor cities, there is no way that FSD will be added by anyone.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:39 pm

Quoting Stapleton (Reply 11):
Compare the following boardings for FSD and SUX from 2006 and 1995

That was back when SUX had 2x/day at least of mainline NW service to MSP, not to mention TWA service to STL and Great Lakes to ORD.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13):
EWR-DSM is another route I would like to see.

It's been done...it didn't take. But the way Greater Des Moines is growing, you'll likely see it stick within 5 years. I'm flying to DSM on Thursday...typical CR7 out of ORD. It's a short flight, but I definitely prefer the A319 or 735/3/57 that they have at other times during the day.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:31 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:42 pm

Here is a different observation on something:
South Dakota communities that have EAS Service (Aberdeen, Brookings, Pierre, Huron). I dont know about ABR but i think. Wouldnt it just be easier if Great Lakes flew the EMB-120's or B1900D's into FSD, then had F9 or make them schedule a (30 minute) connection or something to Denver for those flights. They would have to have maybe 2 planes based in SF. 1 EMB-120 and 1 B1900D. It just makes more sense rather than having to stop, then it might save the airline money, and just have an aircraft run FSD to inter southdakota routes.
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
OBSMGR
Posts: 45
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:40 am

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 26):
Here is a different observation on something:
South Dakota communities that have EAS Service (Aberdeen, Brookings, Pierre, Huron). I dont know about ABR but i think. Wouldnt it just be easier if Great Lakes flew the EMB-120's or B1900D's into FSD, then had F9 or make them schedule a (30 minute) connection or something to Denver for those flights. They would have to have maybe 2 planes based in SF. 1 EMB-120 and 1 B1900D. It just makes more sense rather than having to stop, then it might save the airline money, and just have an aircraft run FSD to inter southdakota routes.

I'm afraid NW already tried something similar to this using Saab 340s. It didnt last long. The only remnant of this experiment is NW's use of Gate 2, which the airport granted them to use for their flights to Pierre and Aberdeen (not sure on the other market).
I just Googled your Yahoo :)
 
SpencerII
Posts: 259
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:15 pm

RE: More Airlines Need To Step Up In FSD, FAR

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 3):
. Two Days Before Frontier was to announce the first four Dash-400 destinations, United added mainline to Sioux Falls
2. United then added 1 More CR7 to the FSD-DEN schedule.

That really is just kind of a retaliatory response. UAL is notorious for this very thing. A number of years back when DELTA was having their MD-90 party in SLC -- Their hangar was amassed with all kinds of DL dignitaries and city & state officials, UAL decided to use SLC to do some testing of their new 777 . Of course the 777 diminished the perception of the party for the MD90.

As to FSD SUX and FAR, I can tell you that from someone who works in market expansion for an airline, we look at this continually. The yield & return is just not there, and committment from the communities is extremely limited. Even most of the larger companies with a presence in those cities are quite reluctant to commit to any amount of travel. I have researched each of thses cities almost every year for the past 5 years, and for my company we can place our resources into markets with a far better return.