aileron11
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:46 am

AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:06 pm

I checked to see if this has been discussed before did not find any thing, so my question is if or when AA orders the 787 how would they paint it, it is not like aluminum skin we see polished today on AA fleet. Does anyone think AA would come up with new livery just for 787 or they would paint it silver to make it look polished. Should be interesting to see how this turns out.  Smile
Jersey Lou
 
zululima
Posts: 373
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:12 pm

My guess is light grey all over with the usual stripes & AA logo. Check AA's A300 photos and look at the composite areas for a general idea. I'm sure some won't like it, but I think it might look sharp (when clean anyway). AA doesn't seem to have interest in changing a livery that has worked well for them for decades. Expect a simple grey-for-polished metal scheme.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
graphic
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:16 pm

Grey for polished metal looks too fake. It works on the newer Boeing tails but that's about it.
Demand Media fails at life
 
HPAEAA
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:16 pm

I personally love the gray glistening in the sun... anyways... a few years ago AA calculated how much they saved but not completely painting the aircraft.. given oil prices, I don't see them changing...
Why do I fly???
 
commavia
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:31 pm

Why not just get silver-ish or even metallic paint? Sure, it will obviously never be as shiny as bare metal, but if bare metal isn't possible on the all-composite 787, then I think metallic or near-metallic paint is a reasonably good substitute to keep the same general appearance and effect.

I'm thinking something along the lines of how Virgin Atlantic has repainted their aircraft only, if it is possible/available, maybe a bit brighter -- closer to silver and farther from Virgin's gray.


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FLYGUY767
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:37 pm

Quoting ZuluLima (Reply 1):
My guess is light grey all over with the usual stripes & AA logo.

You mean like this..


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-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
zululima
Posts: 373
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 5):

Ooh, spif. Much better than the patchwork scheme they use now. My vote is definitely light grey.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
Adam T.
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:58 pm

My guess would be the metallic paint as well. Do you all think that perhaps AA may update the look only slightly if 787s come on order similar to what Qantas is doing for the A380? A new metallic paint look might not be all that bad looking with a slightly updated AA livery.
 
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Stitch
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:02 pm

There are metallic paints that work great with CFRP structures. McLaren F1 paints their CFRP Formula One chassis to looks exactly like they were chromed. I am sure AA will be able to get a paint that looks like polished Al.
 
wilcharl
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:03 pm

They already have techs working @ MCI on a plan to polish out the composite barrels. They will be delivered painted and after a few yrs, against Boeings wishes they will apply paint stripper and polish the composite to a chrome like shine.
Anyone ever hear of the AA-5 that a chemical stripper was used on??? Sad sad sad sad
 
futurecaptain
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:11 pm

Coincidence that Boeing chose grey for the engine nacelles on the 787 as the color of choice for max fuel savings? I think not. Could this shade of grey perhaps be the color AA is considering using all over the 787? Magic 8 ball says possibly.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:35 pm

Now even I'm getting tired of this question. I've answered it at least four times on this board.

AA will paint it using the same process used on this BMW.


http://www.bmwquebec.com/pics/chrome/chrome5.jpg

http://www.bmwquebec.com/pics/chrome/chrome15.jpg

http://www.bmwquebec.com/pics/chrome/chrome19.jpg
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
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JBo
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 11):
Now even I'm getting tired of this question. I've answered it at least four times on this board.

AA will paint it using the same process used on this BMW.

Nice! Big grin

In reality though, that's probably far too expensive and heavy to apply on a mass scale.  Sad
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
zululima
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 12):
In reality though, that's probably far too expensive and heavy to apply on a mass scale.

Not to mention the fact that AA's scheme is polished aluminum, not chrome. Chrome a/c would look tacky and likely be much more difficult to maintain than an auto paint job.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 3):
a few years ago AA calculated how much they saved but not completely painting the aircraft.. given oil prices, I don't see them changing...



Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
There are metallic paints that work great with CFRP structures. McLaren F1 paints their CFRP Formula One chassis to looks exactly like they were chromed. I am sure AA will be able to get a paint that looks like polished Al.

There are a very limited number of paints you can use on the 787 upper fuselage and wing surfaces because you need to provide heat and UV protection to the CFRP. I don't believe a metallic paint is one of them. I'm sure they exist, like in the McLaren example, but I doubt those paints have been engineered up to where they need to be for an aircraft paint.

Tom.
 
nitrohelper
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:20 pm

Quoting ZuluLima (Reply 13):
likely be much more difficult to maintain than an auto paint job.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 14):
but I doubt those paints have been engineered up to where they need to be for an aircraft paint.

Just wondering why it would be be difficult to maintain? Are the cleaning chemicals that different?
Do the modern coatings on an airliner use the base & clear coat system ?
What is the engineering difference in metal coatings vs composites is it also the top coat, or primers only?
Do de-icing chemicals come into play with current coatings,are all aircraft painted with the same basic materials, or do they vary with use in different parts of the globe?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 15):
Just wondering why it would be be difficult to maintain? Are the cleaning chemicals that different?
Do the modern coatings on an airliner use the base & clear coat system ?
What is the engineering difference in metal coatings vs composites is it also the top coat, or primers only?
Do de-icing chemicals come into play with current coatings,are all aircraft painted with the same basic materials, or do they vary with use in different parts of the globe?

The whole point of aircraft paint is that it not be difficult to maintain. It's designed to stay nice and shiny with negligible colour fade while flying in direct sunlight at high altitude (high UV exposure) in a periodic ~500 mph wind for 10 years. That's why it costs several hundred dollars per gallon.

Airliners do not use a base/clear-coat. It's a primer+enamel or primer+urethane system. On aluminum parts, there's also a chromate conversion coating under that.

For metals vs. composites the major thing is the primer but there are topcoats that you can use on metal (for example, dark colours) that you don't want to use on some composites.

De-icing plays into durability...the paint has to be able to accept the assorted fluids (deicer, fuel, skydrol, grease, oil, soap) with limited ill effects.

I imagine that repainting uses all kinds of paints around the world but the OEM's only have one or two types that they typically use. There may be multiple vendors per type.

Tom.
 
MBR1
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:35 pm

Talking about this... When are they going to change the logo, paint scheme, etc???
It has been several years now... Need a change!!!
M.
 
Braniff1960
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:33 pm

Wasn’t there some in-depth thread about John Travolta having problems getting
the underside of his 707 painted in the USA because the FAA told him silver
paint would make some kind of negative image on radar?

He then took the 707 to Mexico and had it painted there?

Not sure if I read this on A.Net or somewhere else…...
nothing like the smell of jet exhaust!
 
aajfksjubklyn
Posts: 458
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:33 pm

I dont think AA will change their logo, quite honestly I like it, but it is very costly to do so. If and when they do I am sure it will happen at a time when a significant plan replacement occurs rather quickly or something along those lines..when it makes the best economic sense. Just my two cents.

Anyway, here is the history behind the logo: (from Wikipedia)

In the late 1960s, American commissioned an industrial designer to develop a new livery. The original design called for a red, white, and blue stripe on the fuselage, and a simple "AA" logo, without an eagle, on the tail. However, American's employees revolted when the livery was made public, and launched a "Save the Eagle" campaign similar to the "Save the Flying Red Horse" campaign at Mobil. Eventually, the designer caved in and created a highly stylized eagle, which remains the company's logo to this day. In 1999, American painted a new Boeing 757 in its 1959 international orange livery.
 
navymmw
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:36 pm

I dont think they need a change, they should keep what they have, they should not be like Delta and make 3 livery changes in 10 years!
 
coa747
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:16 am

What about a metalic finish similar to Northwest, is that possible to do on the 787. I think that would look great, well some variation of it anyway don't won't to look exactly like Northwest.
 
ksupilot
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
Coincidence that Boeing chose grey for the engine nacelles on the 787 as the color of choice for max fuel savings? I think not. Could this shade of grey perhaps be the color AA is considering using all over the 787? Magic 8 ball says possibly.

They just used gray as an example...that release said that Boeing recommended a solid color for the nacelles for max fuel savings. So you can paint them gray, blue, purple, or pink and as long as they are one solid color they will have the max fuel savings.
 
express1
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Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 11):

And How meny coke cans did you melt down for this?  biggrin 

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
ORDagent
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:51 am

If they do update the logo I don't think they need to throw the baby out with the bath water ala DL with the widgit. I see them taking the AA off of the tail and making the eagle bigger. Minor tweaks to the stripes are all I would do. The current livery is so iconic that can't change it too drastically as it really doesn't look that dated even after 40 odd years. In fact I won a hat from my AA sales rep and the logo is only the "Scissor Eagle" with no AA underneath and only in one color. It looks really elegant and simple.
 
ceray
Posts: 9
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:06 am

With the arrival of the 787, American could tweek it's color scheme for a little update. Indeed, American's livery has stood the test of time. It truely is one of the basic, true identities for a major American airline. The livery should not be changed for change sake, but owing to the addition of this new aircraft and it's industry changing advantages in range and economics, perhaps an update might be in order. I'm not recommending a major update, just a tweek. Perhaps some suggestions here in the blog would be interesting. I offer maybe a different font on the lettering, or maybe a larger eagle on the tail.  Yeah sure
 
LuisKMIA
Posts: 67
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:12 am

There are of shiny grey schemes out there, such as NW and VS. They would likely go that route and maintian the traditional livery, which will continue to save fuel for the other Boeings in the AA fleet.

Luis
KMIA
 
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JBo
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 21):
What about a metalic finish similar to Northwest, is that possible to do on the 787. I think that would look great, well some variation of it anyway don't won't to look exactly like Northwest.

Considering NW has ordered and will be receiving the 787, I sure hope so.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Carls
Posts: 194
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:54 am

Why everybody is so confident with AA 787 order?
No body was expecting Eastern Airbus A300 order, and everybody was caught with their order. Could happen that Airbus applied the same strategy here. Is just my guess.
.

I'm thinking something along the lines of how Virgin Atlantic has repainted their aircraft only, if it is possible/available, maybe a bit brighter -- closer to silver and farther from Virgin's gray.[/quote]


I agree maybe a close color to Virgin Atlantic could work for them.
 
OB1504
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting Carls (Reply 28):
Why everybody is so confident with AA 787 order?
No body was expecting Eastern Airbus A300 order, and everybody was caught with their order. Could happen that Airbus applied the same strategy here. Is just my guess.

Do you really expect AA to order Airbus after the AA587 fiasco?
 
tripleboom
Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:57 pm

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 29):
Do you really expect AA to order Airbus after the AA587 fiasco?

I'm sure they could care less given that it wasn't the A300 at fault. Pilot overcompensated for "wake turbulence" from a JAL 747
 
ScottB
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Tripleboom (Reply 30):
I'm sure they could care less given that it wasn't the A300 at fault.

Yup, I am sure that AA management just loved it when Airbus publicly criticized AA's pilot training... without taking any blame for the human factors design vis a vis the rudder control.
 
ELTENELEVEN
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:28 am

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):



Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 11):



Quoting JBo (Reply 12):

go to wal-mart and buy their aluminum colored paint it worked well when i painted the wings of my model airplanes as well as the American DC-10 i painted 20 years ago.  Wink
You can never have enough hats, gloves, and 3 1/2 inch spiked heel stiletto pumps in various styles and colors
 
mymiles2go
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting Carls (Reply 28):
Why everybody is so confident with AA 787 order?

Because we all live in this world called 'reality'. Airbus has about the same chance of getting AA to buy a plane anytime soon as they do getting Greyhound Bus Lines to buy an A380.
 
OB1504
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Tripleboom (Reply 30):
I'm sure they could care less given that it wasn't the A300 at fault. Pilot overcompensated for "wake turbulence" from a JAL 747

I'm aware of that, but Airbus tried to pin the blame on AA, resulting in bad blood between the two companies. That's the kind of animosity that doesn't go away in 5 or 6 years.

So they could care... they could care a lot.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:04 am

Quoting Wilcharl (Reply 9):
They already have techs working @ MCI on a plan to polish out the composite barrels. They will be delivered painted and after a few yrs, against Boeings wishes they will apply paint stripper and polish the composite to a chrome like shine.
Anyone ever hear of the AA-5 that a chemical stripper was used on??? sad sad sad

I sure hope your joking!
 
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Vasu
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:12 am

I just hope to god that the result doesn't look anything like that Air Canada experiment...


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... but I have every faith that it won't !
 
zululima
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:37 am

One thing I think they should consider with either color is the addition of the stylized eagle on underwing engine nacelles. Both sides so you can see it from the cabin as well, but none for MD-80s, what with the Pratts so near the other eagle anyway.
I didn't get a 'Harumph' outta that guy!
 
hloutweg
Posts: 156
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:24 am

Hello everyone,

First of all, I'd like to introduce myself and you may call me for my user name or Luis (or Louis). I've been following this website for a long while and have become somewhat addicted to it. Now, I've decided to be active besides an spectator.

For this inaugural post I'd like to contribute with a couple of ideas referring to the original post. Here's my take on what the future American Airlines livery should look like, albeit it's on an A350 (please disregard any assumptions.)

American Airlines livery for composite aircraft 01:


Modified Airliner Photos:
Click here for bigger photo!
Design © Luis Contreras
Template © Luis Contreras


...and livery for composite aircraft 02:

Modified Airliner Photos:
Click here for bigger photo!
Design © Luis Contreras
Template © Luis Contreras


In my opinion the livery will remain classic, using the current colors except for a metallic paint introduction which, as many here, I favor. See the links for additional proposals.
In Varietate Concordia
 
cha747
Posts: 753
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:22 pm

Hello All,

I actually asked this question about 3.5 years ago (before it was officially called the 787) on this thread:

7E7's Impact On AA's Livery

The answer at the time was Alclad. If you look-up Alclad, there are multiple definitions. It is both an Aluminum alloy as well as a laquer finish. One interesting site that is germaine to this discussion is:

http://www.alclad2.com

If you take it a step further though and go from tiny models to larger ones, there is this website talking about a product that competes with Alclad, which is Mirrachrome:

http://www.alsacorp.com/products/mirrachrome/mirrachrome.htm

If you scroll to the bottom of the page, there is an application with a larger scale model aircraft (continued on the next page of the gallery as well).

So I think that the technology maybe there for AA to use, but somebody is going to have to check these sites and confirm whether or not the materials and processes listed here can be used for real-world commercial aviation applications. Also, if I understand the process correctly, for optimal results, the a/c would have to be primed in black before it could be painted chrome; I'm unsure about how that would affect the a/c's interior temp in sunny weather.

Chattanooga 747
You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
 
Amazonphil
Posts: 544
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting Tripleboom (Reply 30):
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 29):
Do you really expect AA to order Airbus after the AA587 fiasco?

I'm sure they could care less given that it wasn't the A300 at fault. Pilot overcompensated for "wake turbulence" from a JAL 747

It was probably due to pilot over correction as you state..mostly, BUT this aircraft in particular was involved in a sever turbulence encounter on a flight from LIM to MIA once back in 1994. It was inspected and released but it IS possible that some underlying undetected damage still could have existed in the vert. stab, etc. that could have taken it's toll after 7 years of additional flying..

Regards,
felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
SpinalTap
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:18 pm

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:52 pm

They could always just stick with the polished aluminium look by using paint much like Aeroflot or Jetstar:


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Photo © Mark H

"I get what they call a stipend, a stipend is like money but its such as small amount they don't really call it money"
 
tdscanuck
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RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Vasu (Reply 36):
I just hope to god that the result doesn't look anything like that Air Canada experiment...

Those planes look awful because they weren't originally built as aluminum-finish airplanes. You have to make sure the grain directions of the fuselage skins are aligned if you're going to do it, which can only be done during manufacturing, otherwise is looks like a checkerboard when you strip the paint and polish the skin.

Tom.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:54 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 42):
Those planes look awful because they weren't originally built as aluminum-finish airplanes. You have to make sure the grain directions of the fuselage skins are aligned if you're going to do it, which can only be done during manufacturing, otherwise is looks like a checkerboard when you strip the paint and polish the skin.

The reason the Air Canada 767 looked so the way it did is because during the process of originally painting the Alclad aluminum skin had to be abraded to get the paint to adhere. No amount of polishing was going to remove the small swerral marks left during the abrading process. You can see the same results on the Eastern Airlines L-1011's they stripped and polished.
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 868
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 14):
There are a very limited number of paints you can use on the 787 upper fuselage and wing surfaces because you need to provide heat and UV protection to the CFRP.

Well, you answered my questions in that they HAVE to paint the aircraft.

Quoting Carls (Reply 28):
Why everybody is so confident with AA 787 order?
No body was expecting Eastern Airbus A300 order, and everybody was caught with their order. Could happen that Airbus applied the same strategy here. Is just my guess.

Massive 767 fleet = 787-8, 9 not A358/9. I'm sure AA, DL and CO were dead in Boeing's sites when designing the 787 much the same way Airbus seems to be optimizing the A350 for Middle Eastern Airlines and Quantas.
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 44):
Quantas.

Dawning fireproof suit now.....  flamed 
 
ELTENELEVEN
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:28 am

RE: AA 787 Paint Job

Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:34 am

Quoting Hloutweg (Reply 38):

WELCOME....I'm new too.
i like the 2nd pic.
You can never have enough hats, gloves, and 3 1/2 inch spiked heel stiletto pumps in various styles and colors