hardiwv
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After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:05 am

Recently during the SkyTeam board meeting KE officially announced that it is seeking to operate flights to GRU KE Wants To Fly To GRU And JNB (by LIPZ Jun 6 2007 in Civil Aviation). MOst probably the flights would operate via LAX, and KE already operated ICN-LAX-GRU in the past.

The Malaysian Government sent a delegation to Brasilia to discuss the possibility of MH to open a route to Brazil. No detailed information had been disclosed about the meeting. MH already operates KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE twice a week with the B747. Considering that the South African Government will certainly not allow MH to operate the lucrative JNB-GRU markt, MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities. Currently operations via North America would not be attractive since MH operates to LAX with a stop-over in TPE and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

Another possibility would be to open GRU with a new destination in Africa such as SkyTeam hub in NBO.

EK already confirmed its flight DXB-GRU starting next month 6 x week with the B772LR, and will be the front runner in opening "new gateways" in the GRU hub.

Rgs,
 
PlaneGuy27
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

That flight operates over ARN, not OSL
 
B742
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting PlaneGuy27 (Reply 1):
Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

That flight operates over ARN, not OSL

And goes to EWR not JFK.

However interesting developments; wouldn't have pictured MH wanting another South American route after EZE.

Rob!  wave 
 
9MMAR
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:30 am

A very interesting news.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities.

MH is no longer serve VIE and I personally think it won't be added just for being a stop over for GRU. I think, ZRH would be ideal as the KUL-ZRH sector performs quite badly and was kept only because of certain important individuals want it to be sustained.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Currently operations via North America would not be attractive since MH operates to LAX with a stop-over in TPE and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

MH doesn't serve JFK via OSL. MH serves EWR via ARN.

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
Another possibility would be to open GRU with a new destination in Africa such as SkyTeam hub in NBO.

There was a talk being held between the Malaysian and Kenyan governments about a possible air link between Kuala Lumpur and Nairobi during our Prime Minister's visit to Kenya. It was reported in many publications.
 
dellatorre
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
The Malaysian Government sent a delegation to Brasilia to discuss the possibility of MH to open a route to Brazil. No detailed information had been disclosed about the meeting. MH already operates KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE twice a week with the B747. Considering that the South African Government will certainly not allow MH to operate the lucrative JNB-GRU markt, MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities. Currently operations via North America would not be attractive since MH operates to LAX with a stop-over in TPE and to JFK with a stop-over in OSL.

Honestly, I doubt MH is going to open flights to GRU. There is just no market between both countries and this flight would need a strong stopover point (South Africa). Europe is just not feasible for this kind of operation.

I do believe that new airlines are going to start looking into GRU for potential new routes to Middle East & Asia. My best candidates would be: Qatar Aiways, Turkish Airlines, ANA, Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways & Air New Zealand.

I could see in around 2015 flights from Brazil to India, North Africa & SE Asia.
 
philzh
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 3):
the KUL-ZRH sector performs quite badly and was kept only because of certain important individuals want it to be sustained.

Hmmm... it's been a while since I flew MH between KUL and ZRH, but then I had the impression that the flights were pretty nicely filled, at least in cattle class. Do you have any sort of numbers?

TIA.

It would be a shame to lose MH in ZRH, IMHO -- I really like flying with them, and I'm looking forward to staying in KUL again sometime.
 
hardiwv
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 3):
There was a talk being held between the Malaysian and Kenyan governments about a possible air link between Kuala Lumpur and Nairobi during our Prime Minister's visit to Kenya. It was reported in many publications.

I think KUL-NBE-GRU would be a very interesting route, especially is Kenyan Airways also puts its code in the flight allowing for connections in Africa.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Honestly, I doubt MH is going to open flights to GRU. There is just no market between both countries and this flight would need a strong stopover point (South Africa).

MH already operates EZE. The point isnt about demand Maysia-Brazil, but rather the connections MH may offer through its hub in KUL and the additional market it could open between say GRU-NBE, for example.

If MH can operate EZE it can also operate GRU, however, I o agree that both EK an KE have more chances of sucess.

Rgs.
 
pzurita1
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
I think KUL-NBE-GRU

Hardiww,

I guess you mean NBO and not NBE.

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
JGPH1A
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Europe is just not feasible for this kind of operation.

It might be - CA operate GRU-MAD-BJS (which must be a pig of a flight) - that is North Asia, not SE Asia, but still, must be do-able.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MAH4546
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
MOst probably the flights would operate via LAX, and KE already operated ICN-LAX-GRU in the past.

Korean Air has stated their intention to fly to Miami in the near future. It would be interesting to see if they made a Sao Paulo route via Miami, as it could help reduce the risk involved in flying to Florida.
a.
 
XA744
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:19 am

My friends, GRU, together with SCL, came up, for the first time, at the company´s 5 year biz plan presentation in KL in 1998. Sao Paulo was to be an extension to CPT ( 3 X ); and SCL as an extension to EZE ( 2 X ). At the same time, it was proposed by the MEX stn, to extend the 2 x KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX to LIM, in a joint operation with Aeromexico ex MEX, something that was approved by Chairman Dato Tajudin Ramli himself, but sadly and stupidly rejected by the Mexican carrier. You see, Malaysia´s PM at that time, Dato Mahatir Mohammed, was very keen in developing commercial and political ties with Latin America. I will always very much appreciate that.

Now, in a 2007 environment, I wouldn´t know about further expansion to South America by MAS. My feelings are that the airline should achieve reconversion and a healthy financial status, before even thinking about starting risky and unpredictable markets again. 9MMAR, any thoughts on this one ?

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
dellatorre
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
MH already operates EZE. The point isnt about demand Maysia-Brazil, but rather the connections MH may offer through its hub in KUL and the additional market it could open between say GRU-NBE, for example.

Why on earth would any pax fly GRU-NBO-KUL and then connect to anywhere in Southeast Asia & Australia??? With the new EK flights to Brazil this seems even more unlikely to happen. This flight through NBO would be a money loser. The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia, having severe competition from many other cities suchs as SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT have many more options than KUL. Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK.

Also NBO has very few ties with Brazil. This means the flight would count basically in connections to Africa & Middle East, in which NBO can't compete with.

So as you can see, there's no point for such service. Now if MH wants to waste their "beloved aircrafts" in such route, be my guest....
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
This flight through NBO would be a money loser.

For what reason?

People said the same thing when EK announced Dubai to Sao Paulo..

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia

Why isnt Kuala Lumpur a good hub?

Malaysia Airlines offers 99 destinations from Kuala Lumpur, that is more than Emirates from Dubai..

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK

I would have to argue with that I have flown both and they are both on par with the Malaysia Airlines crews being a bit more friendly, and always willing to go the extra mile..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
chrisrad
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia, having severe competition from many other cities suchs as SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT have many more options than KUL. Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK.

The fact is that KUL has no competition as MH is the only airline flying directly to many destinations from there. And you are right, KUL is nothing like DXB, I don't see people lying and sleeing on the floor like a third world airport in KUL. Nor do I see EK winning any awards for service or quality.
Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
 
dellatorre
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting Chrisrad (Reply 13):
The fact is that KUL has no competition as MH is the only airline flying directly to many destinations from there. And you are right, KUL is nothing like DXB, I don't see people lying and sleeing on the floor like a third world airport in KUL. Nor do I see EK winning any awards for service or quality.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 12):
Why isnt Kuala Lumpur a good hub?

Malaysia Airlines offers 99 destinations from Kuala Lumpur, that is more than Emirates from Dubai..



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 12):
I would have to argue with that I have flown both and they are both on par with the Malaysia Airlines crews being a bit more friendly, and always willing to go the extra mile..

Well, considering EK is way bigger & more recognized than MH, DXB itself is set to be an world hub with the opening of Jebel Ali Airport, is very simple to understand why DXB & EK are not even comparable with KUL & MH. The chances of EK flight in Brazil are tremendous, on the other hand, MH offer little to Latin American pax, specially in Brazil. It's a matter of location.

Regarding NBO, I guess I don't even have to point out the difference.
 
Ryanair!!!
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
The fact is that KUL is not good hub when traveling to Asia, having severe competition from many other cities suchs as SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT have many more options than KUL. Sorry but KUL is no DXB, nor MH is anything like EK.

I think you might have been sleeping under a rock for a while now my friend. While MAS is not known in your part of the world, this airline is one of the largest in SE Asia in terms of fleet size (Although shrunken through numerous BTPs, but still a sizeable one nonetheless).

If they time their GRU-KUL arrivals right, they will hit the bank of morning regional depatures to the short hops, north Asia, and Australia (PER, MEL and SYD). Likewise the return will have these bank of flights to feed into the GRU bound flight set to depart at 12am or something. To say that KUL is not a good hub is wrong... but not as good compared to SIN and BKK, thats true. But KUL function very well in its own right with MAS monopolising so many sectors simply because their competitors cannot make that route work.
Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
 
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Qatara340
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:11 pm

QR will start flights to Brazil from January 2008, according to the Qatari Ambassador to Brazil. It was in the news, and the flight will be nonstop. I am not sure though if that indeed is the case.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
MAS777
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:05 pm

Quoting 9MMAR (Reply 3):
and was kept only because of certain important individuals want it to be sustained.

This is a proverbial problem at MAS and I hope Idris Jala continues to prune MAS appropriately so that it may grow stronger.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
nor MH is anything like EK.

True - Many would say MH is way ABOVE EK.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 14):
MH offer little to Latin American pax

As others have commented (and in another thread where loads of MH's EZE-CPT-JNB-KUL route was discussed), MAS does seem to offer a good niche market for Latin America. With excellent connections at KUL for Thailand, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, other parts of Southeast Asia, certain ports in India and a variety of cities in China and Taiwan - i think there should be room to grow even as you pointed out there may be little O&D traffic between Latin America and KUL itself...

The same is true for Emirates and Dubai if you wish to compare - but as we've established - perhaps somewhat like comparing 'apples and oranges'...


In my opinion - i think MAS has always been keener to serve Brazil (rather than EZE) in South America as there are actually MORE links in regards to trade and industry between Brazil and Malaysia - in particular, Rubber, Agriculture and most importantly the PetroChemical Industry and (i have reasonable sources to think...) that a KUL-West Africa-GRU service might be something MAS might be considering - with Lagos a possible stopover point (given the sizeable Nigerian population that seems to be growing in Malaysia to help boost loads).


(Nairobi btw - if plans go ahead - will be most likely to be a codeshare with KQ and not involve MH aircraft)
 
dellatorre
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
I think you might have been sleeping under a rock for a while now my friend. While MAS is not known in your part of the world, this airline is one of the largest in SE Asia in terms of fleet size (Although shrunken through numerous BTPs, but still a sizeable one nonetheless).

If they time their GRU-KUL arrivals right, they will hit the bank of morning regional depatures to the short hops, north Asia, and Australia (PER, MEL and SYD). Likewise the return will have these bank of flights to feed into the GRU bound flight set to depart at 12am or something. To say that KUL is not a good hub is wrong... but not as good compared to SIN and BKK, thats true. But KUL function very well in its own right with MAS monopolising so many sectors simply because their competitors cannot make that route work.

I think who is sleeping here is you. Of course MH is one of Asia's best airlines, and KUL Airport has a great infrastructure that makes connections easy. I'm just saying when compared to other more importanta hubs like SIN, BKK, HKG, NRT and so on, KUL lacks in offering more options to pax in general. It's a fact that among the Asian hubs, KUL is way below in flights to Europe, N America & Africa. That could also be seen in some Asian destinations. The only part where they truly offer good connections is Australia & SE Asia. (mainly for EU, Indian & Middle East pax)

Now to say MH will be sucessful in Brazil flying through NBO or even LOS is just silly. Maybe they could work something with the New Zealand or South African govt.
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 4):
Honestly, I doubt MH is going to open flights to GRU. There is just no market between both countries and this flight would need a strong stopover point (South Africa). Europe is just not feasible for this kind of operation.

This flight (assume MAS start one) will work as long as MAS has a good stopover point in Europe. MAS can focus on O&D. Let say GRU/MUC (assume MUC is chosen as MH stopover point) and MUC/KUL. Normally the return ticket GRU-KULvv is A LOT cheaper than GRU-MUCvv & MUC-KULvv return tickets combined. MAS can earn more money this way.

I believe there is no market between MEX & KUL either but MEX worked perfectly well for MAS. Most of the passengers travelling on MH to MEX were mostly O&D between LAX/MEX. A market won't build up on its own. You have to create one.
 
XA744
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 19):
Most of the passengers travelling on MH to MEX were mostly O&D between LAX/MEX. A market won't build up on its own. You have to create one.

Very well said, seems to me that you know quite a bit about MH´s ops in the past.

MAS had to pull out of MEX after its LAX-MEX 5th freedom rights were removed by the Mexican Civil Aviation Authority, in December 1998.

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
Well, considering EK is way bigger & more recognized than MH, DXB itself is set to be an world hub with the opening of Jebel Ali Airport, is very simple to understand why DXB & EK are not even comparable with KUL & MH.

The above is nothing more than a personal opinion and is far from being a fact based statement. I would draw your attention to the many destinations that MH flies to that Emirates does not.

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
The chances of EK flight in Brazil are tremendous, on the other hand, MH offer little to Latin American pax, specially in Brazil. It's a matter of location.

That is opinion, not a fact..

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
I think you might have been sleeping under a rock for a while now my friend.

100% Agreed..  thumbsup 

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 19):
Now to say MH will be sucessful in Brazil flying through NBO or even LOS is just silly.

Your right connecting the African commerce centers of Nairobi and Lagos to Sao Paulo makes no sense at all. You are so right that the oil traffic heading to Brazil from Lagos should have to fly via MXP, AMS, or CDG. Your wisdom is so overwhelming I dont know what to do..

 sarcastic   sarcastic   sarcastic   sarcastic 

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
dellatorre
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
The above is nothing more than a personal opinion and is far from being a fact based statement. I would draw your attention to the many destinations that MH flies to that Emirates does not.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
That is opinion, not a fact..



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
Your right connecting the African commerce centers of Nairobi and Lagos to Sao Paulo makes no sense at all. You are so right that the oil traffic heading to Brazil from Lagos should have to fly via MXP, AMS, or CDG. Your wisdom is so overwhelming I dont know what to do..

It is my personal opinion.. If u don't like, it is your problem, not mine.

Even than, my opinion is based on the fact that this kind of service pretended by MH very risky. MH has a niche market in EZE, which they've been flying for quite some time now. If they kept this flight even after sacking out European gateways such as VIE, MUC & MAN, it must work out for them. Now, I presume South African authorities won't give MH the same rights to Brazil. They will have to look for an other stopover, and I don't think there are many ones left.

U can say in theory, that MH has a big catchment are from KUL, but that doesn't mean it will work.

Now, if this so glamored oil traffic from Brazil to Africa really existed, why isn't anyone flying it right now? Simply because this market is to thin for such service. Oceanaie has been preparing their LOS & LAD service for a couple of months now, and so far nothing... Even after they commence it, it's suppose to go only 2 x wekly.
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting XA744 (Reply 20):
Very well said, seems to me that you know quite a bit about MH´s ops in the past.

Thanks  Smile
 
Fly2CHC
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:30 pm

If I were MH, I would look at KUL-SYD-AKL-GRU. After all, this is what SQ have had their eyes on for many years (without the additional SYD stop).
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:32 pm

I am going to throw my two cents into how they may route these services:

KUL-CPT-EZE 3x 777-200 = 10221 mi
KUL-JNB-GRU 3x 777-200 = 9915 mi

The reason that I have suggested the two above is that is would maintain the Malaysia Airlines presence in the Argentine market as well as introduce the Brazilian market. At the same time the routes would maintain the long standing service with Malaysia to the South African market. The split schedule with 3x per week would afford decent load with routes that have an already evident demand. The reason for not using the 747-400 is that by using a smaller aircraft it is more than obvious you have less seats to fill. And as can be said the 777 has very good Cargo capacity.

The idea of a European stopover is much to far out of the way:

KUL-FCO-GRU = 11917 mi
KUL-MUC-GRU = 12187 mi

Although I would like to entertain the idea of LOS or JNB as a stopover I just dont see them feasible as they are good markets, but knowing Malaysia Airlines new business plan the routes are not yet proven by other airlines, and they would essentialy have to invent the justification and traffic between the two cities which could be very hard.

KUL-LOS-GRU = 10724 mi
KUL-NBO-GRU = 10257 mi

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
HB-IWC
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 25):
KUL-CPT-EZE 3x 777-200 = 10221 mi
KUL-JNB-GRU 3x 777-200 = 9915 mi

MH is a company in the process of restructuring itself, and it is in no position to embark on ventures like some of the ones discussed in this thread. The airline's twice weekly Buenos Aires service has been losing money for as long as anyone can remember and despite the courageous efforts by some of the airline's current and past senior management to get rid of EZE, the route remains in the network for no other reason than political pressure. The idea of supplementing the EZE route by another undoubtedly loss making venture is no more or no less than financial recklessness and I'll be very surprised if ever it were to happen.

Furthermore, one should not forget that MH has been shrinking quite a bit lately. It has removed 6 B744s from the active fleet and only 11 frames remain operating in the airline's colors. Over the past couple of months, MH has been facing serious operational disruptions because of this limited fleet, and in particular B744 service to AMS and SYD have been the subject of frequent excessive delays because of a lack of available aircraft. As such, I doubt that MH is currently in any position to start reinforcing its longhaul offerings, if only because of a lack of available resources.

If and when the company decides to start expanding its intercontinental offerings, it would be well advised to start by increasing frequencies to existing destinations. EWR, FRA, ZRH and JNB, to name just a few, are served with less than daily frequency, and reinforcing those operations to daily may actually have a better return to the company's bottom line than starting yet another bunch of new destinations with minimal weekly frequency. In the current setup, there is now way that MH can compete with its arch rival SQ to destinations such a New York, Johannesburg or Frankfurt, because with a vastly larger number of weekly frequencies, the latter is likely to be far preferred by the flexibility-sensitive upfront traffic, which represent the bread and butter of these longhaul operations. In the unlikely event that MH were to start GRU operations, it would likely do so on a twice or thrice weekly basis, thereby immediately positioning itself as the underdog when compared to the likes of EK.

I don't doubt that some within MH have been dreaming of this GRU venture and these contemplations may even have made their way to the press, yet for MH to embark on such a project in its current condition just doesn't make sense and it's not going to happen.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
Why on earth would any pax fly GRU-NBO-KUL and then connect to anywhere in Southeast Asia & Australia???

Didnt RG operate GRU-NBO-HKG when the first received their MD-11s?
 
dellatorre
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RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 26):
MH is a company in the process of restructuring itself, and it is in no position to embark on ventures like some of the ones discussed in this thread. The airline's twice weekly Buenos Aires service has been losing money for as long as anyone can remember and despite the courageous efforts by some of the airline's current and past senior management to get rid of EZE, the route remains in the network for no other reason than political pressure. The idea of supplementing the EZE route by another undoubtedly loss making venture is no more or no less than financial recklessness and I'll be very surprised if ever it were to happen.

Furthermore, one should not forget that MH has been shrinking quite a bit lately. It has removed 6 B744s from the active fleet and only 11 frames remain operating in the airline's colors. Over the past couple of months, MH has been facing serious operational disruptions because of this limited fleet, and in particular B744 service to AMS and SYD have been the subject of frequent excessive delays because of a lack of available aircraft. As such, I doubt that MH is currently in any position to start reinforcing its longhaul offerings, if only because of a lack of available resources.

If and when the company decides to start expanding its intercontinental offerings, it would be well advised to start by increasing frequencies to existing destinations. EWR, FRA, ZRH and JNB, to name just a few, are served with less than daily frequency, and reinforcing those operations to daily may actually have a better return to the company's bottom line than starting yet another bunch of new destinations with minimal weekly frequency. In the current setup, there is now way that MH can compete with its arch rival SQ to destinations such a New York, Johannesburg or Frankfurt, because with a vastly larger number of weekly frequencies, the latter is likely to be far preferred by the flexibility-sensitive upfront traffic, which represent the bread and butter of these longhaul operations. In the unlikely event that MH were to start GRU operations, it would likely do so on a twice or thrice weekly basis, thereby immediately positioning itself as the underdog when compared to the likes of EK.

I don't doubt that some within MH have been dreaming of this GRU venture and these contemplations may even have made their way to the press, yet for MH to embark on such a project in its current condition just doesn't make sense and it's not going to happen.

Thanks....................
 
Knightsofmalta
Posts: 1689
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2005 10:51 pm

RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:17 pm

I seriously doubt that MH will start flying to GRU via ZRH. At least not if they're hoping to actually make money...
 
airbazar
Posts: 7133
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 12):
Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 11):
This flight through NBO would be a money loser.
For what reason?
People said the same thing when EK announced Dubai to Sao Paulo..

You can't possibly compare these two hubs and seriously believe that the traffic potential between NBO and GRU is just as large and as valuable as DXB and GRU. I mean, Angola is Brazil's biggest trade partner in Africa and look at how many connections there are between LAD and GRU.
If MH would ever start service to Brazil it would have to be via Europe where there is plenty of traffic to make the route sustainable, or possibly via a Gulf hub where where traffic is less but the yields are high.
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:06 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 30):
Angola is Brazil's biggest trade partner in Africa and look at how many connections there are between LAD and GRU.

Traffic LAD-GIG is basically O&D. LAD an TAGG are no real option for connections.

Look at SA performance in GRU, one of its most profitable destinations. Last month SA increased JNB-GRU to 10 x week flights. Through its hub in NBO, KQ can offer pax a different option of connections for flights to Africa therefore competion with SA.

Rgs
 
airbazar
Posts: 7133
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
Look at SA performance in GRU, one of its most profitable destinations. Last month SA increased JNB-GRU to 10 x week flights. Through its hub in NBO, KQ can offer pax a different option of connections for flights to Africa therefore competion with SA.

The value of SA's flight to GRU is to offer connections to Asia and Australia and not so much to Africa. There's little high yield traffic demand between Brazil and Africa. And then there's the geographic location of NBO as a hub for Africa, which would require a good amount of backtracking for anyone connecting there from/to Brazil to/from other points in Africa.
 
keno
Posts: 1809
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:11 pm

Before we all start daydreaming about MH opening out yet another exotic far-flung destination, consider these few examples:
  • The 3x weekly EWR very nearly got the chop last year during the Business Turnaround Plan, with that goes ARN too. The government interfered citing Visit Malaysia Year 2007 as the reason to ease visitors movement from US East Coast. It's only 4 months away before 2008, who knows what would happen next.
  • FRA has been reduced from daily to 5x weekly. With the new AZ codeshare via FCO in place, FRA is added to the list together with new cities - GVA, ATH, BCN etc. These could all be signs that FRA might even go altogether in favour of codeshare via Skyteam hubs.
  • BNE has lost its own dedicated service, now lumped together with SYD on a triangle route KUL-SYD-BNE-KUL.

    If these key destinations could barely survive the new Business Turnaround Plan, what chance that exotic GRU has? As Mr Idris Jala kept on repeating, the key is to forge alliance and let these carriers serve destinantions that MH don't stand a chance - GRU could easily be served via FCO on AZ, or AMS on KL (the same could be said for EWR/JFK). MH has embarked on pretty crazy schemes in the past but I have strong faith in Mr Jala that he wont let MH slip down this time.
  •  
    Fly2CHC
    Posts: 443
    Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:35 pm

    RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

    Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:48 pm

    Quoting KEno (Reply 33):
    If these key destinations could barely survive the new Business Turnaround Plan, what chance that exotic GRU has?

    Yes, but you must remember that in Malaysia, regardless of what the CEO of MH says, the airline often creates and retains routes for non purely commercial reasons (such as political pressure). I'm sure they would not have flown to Zagreb, Mexico City, and Buenos Aires as long as they did if their only consideration was route profitability.
     
    ZK-NBT
    Posts: 5010
    Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

    RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

    Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:34 pm

    AKL is another route only served 5x weekly with a 772, from what I hear loads are good. They used to have daily 744's that were usually full but demand fro F wasn't strong and the J section was to big I think but Y was always full.
     
    hardiwv
    Posts: 4341
    Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 11:30 pm

    RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

    Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:01 pm

    Quoting Airbazar (Reply 32):
    The value of SA's flight to GRU is to offer connections to Asia and Australia and not so much to Africa. There's little high yield traffic demand between Brazil and Africa. And then there's the geographic location of NBO as a hub for Africa, which would require a good amount of backtracking for anyone connecting there from/to Brazil to/from other points in Africa.

    You are wrong. More than 80% of SA pax to/from GRU have as final destination JNB or other destinations in Africa. The share of Asia/Australia is very small even because nowadays SA only keeps operations JNB-HKG daily and JNB-BOM (4 x week) and the only Australian destination served by SA is JNB-PER (4 x week).

    - HKG and BOM have plenty of other flight options via Europe, and the current time connection with SA in JNB entail pax to wait for 8h in JNB for connection;

    - PER is hardly a first option for Brazilians going to Australia. SYD and BNE are the destinations of Brazilian, who have plenty of better connection with LA via SCL and AR via EZE.

    Traffic Brazil-Africa is high yielding and growing, which explains why SA operates 10 x week JNB-GRU and GRU is one of its most lucrative routes (ahead of LHR). It also explains why TAAG increased LAD-GIG to 3 x week, although its flight is merely O&D and connects Brazil's second hub (GIG), and TACV decided to operate FOR-SID daily.

    In my opinion in case MH operates KUL-NBO-GRU it could offer a competition to SA, which now is the only real option for pax flying to Africa. NBO could open a new hub of connections.


    Quoting KEno (Reply 33):
    If these key destinations could barely survive the new Business Turnaround Plan, what chance that exotic GRU has?

    And how do you think MH manages to keep EZE?

    Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 34):
    Yes, but you must remember that in Malaysia, regardless of what the CEO of MH says, the airline often creates and retains routes for non purely commercial reasons (such as political pressure). I'm sure they would not have flown to Zagreb, Mexico City, and Buenos Aires as long as they did if their only consideration was route profitability.

    100% correct.

    Rgs,
     
    keno
    Posts: 1809
    Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:46 pm

    RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

    Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:57 pm

    Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 36):
    And how do you think MH manages to keep EZE?

    Quoting Fly2CHC (Reply 34):
    Yes, but you must remember that in Malaysia, regardless of what the CEO of MH says, the airline often creates and retains routes for non purely commercial reasons (such as political pressure). I'm sure they would not have flown to Zagreb, Mexico City, and Buenos Aires as long as they did if their only consideration was route profitability.

    100% correct.

    Keeping a poorly peforming route, or suspending it, is a lot easier than launching a new one. We have yet to hear any official explanation on why EZE is retained while other destinations got the chop - and no, it has nothing to do with ex-PM personal interests in Argentina which sounds more and more like an urban legend here in A.net.

    I am far from defending MH's past records in launching new routes which at times were driven by political reasons rather than commercial interests. But if you have been reading Malaysian business press for the past year or so, you'd see that things are slowly changing for the better in MH in terms of their business operations and strategy. The sale of MH corporate HQ tower, transfer of rural routes to AK and 747 fleet downsizing etc are things that I would never have imagined an MD/CEO would dare to embark under the watchful eyes of the Government.

    Forecasting what MH would do in the future (e.g. launching GRU) judging mostly on MH's past track record (ZAG, EZE), though would be a rather valid justification as recent as a year ago, is no longer fair at the moment in the light of recent developments under the new MD/CEO. Time will tell if he lives up to his promises.
     
    incitatus
    Posts: 2750
    Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

    RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

    Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:54 pm

    Quoting XA744 (Reply 10):
    My friends, GRU, together with SCL, came up, for the first time, at the company´s 5 year biz plan presentation in KL in 1998. Sao Paulo was to be an extension to CPT ( 3 X ); and SCL as an extension to EZE ( 2 X ). At the same time, it was proposed by the MEX stn, to extend the 2 x KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX to LIM,

    These routes just don't sound very clever in this decade. Who say, in Surabaya, wanting to fly to Lima, would go SUB-KUL-TPE-LAX-MEX-LIM? Only an Indonesian backpacker looking for a rock bottom fare would do this. SUB is not an easy place to get to from South America, but there are plenty of 2-stop choices between it and Lima, like SUB-HKG-LAX-LIM.

    Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
    Considering that the South African Government will certainly not allow MH to operate the lucrative JNB-GRU markt, MH could be examing to operate flights to GRU via Europe: VIE, AMS, FCO, ZRH are among the possibilities.

    I've heard too from somebody at MH that South Africa is a major stumbling block to any expansion in South America, even frequency increases in the current service.
    Stop pop up ads
     
    HB-IWC
    Posts: 4033
    Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

    RE: After EK And KE, Now MH Wants Flights To GRU

    Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:56 pm

    Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 36):
    And how do you think MH manages to keep EZE?



    Quoting KEno (Reply 37):
    We have yet to hear any official explanation on why EZE is retained while other destinations got the chop - and no, it has nothing to do with ex-PM personal interests in Argentina which sounds more and more like an urban legend here in A.net.

    Whatever the reason may be for EZE's continued presence in the MH network, the route has, for as long as I've seen numbers, never ever been in the black. EZE was announced to get the axe in one of the restructuring plans after 9/11, yet is survived. Earlier this year then, there were rumblings that MH would engage in a codeshare agreement with SAA in order to save the route, yet SAA has since abandoned the idea of restarting EZE ops. I presume that EZE will just stay and lose money for the airline. Let's just call it part of the airline's pride. Incidentally, MH's EWR route also still has to return any profit to the company.

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