User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:51 am

I have a rather interesting question.

Delta has stated that they don't plan on retiring their MD-88s in the short term. They have stated that the MD-88s have lower operating costs than the 737-800s, as they are fully paid for. I actually find this quite odd, as AA would tend to disagree. AA is preparing to retire their oldest MD-82s and replace them with 737-800s. However, AA's MD-80 fleet is more than twice as large as Delta's, and their oldest MD-82s were probably delivered before Delta's oldest MD-88. However, AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999.

Does anyone know how do the operating costs compare between the MD-80 and 737-800? If you assumed that both were fully paid for, the 737-800 would probably be lower, however, Delta and American are still paying for their 737-800s. AA might also still be paying for their newest MD-83s.

[Edited 2007-08-18 01:51:47]
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
brendows
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:55 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
They have stated that the MD-88s have lower operating costs than the 737-800s, as they are fully paid for.

Are you sure they have stated that the operating costs are lower for the MD-88? I can believe it if they said ownership costs, but not when it comes to operating costs...
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 2946
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:34 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999

Wow, never knew some were as young as this!
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Brendows (Reply 1):
Are you sure they have stated that the operating costs are lower for the MD-88? I can believe it if they said ownership costs, but not when it comes to operating costs...

wouldn't operating cost include ownership costs and everything.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 3):
wouldn't operating cost include ownership costs and everything.

Yes, operating costs include ownership costs. When the ownership costs are excluded, the 737-800 would be cheaper to operate.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:16 am

American has the MD-80 ever assembled. N984TW was built for TWA in late 1999.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
trex8
Posts: 4618
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:22 am

http://www.airlineempires.net/index...._content&task=view&id=51&Itemid=61
DL 05 Q2
738
Flight Crew Cost $748
Fuel Cost $1,266
Other Costs $87

Total Flying Cost $2,101

Direct Main. - Airframe $219
Direct Main. - Engines $132
Total Direct Maintenance $351
Maintenance Burden $153

Total Maintenance Costs $504

Depreciation $373
Aircraft Rent $96

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,098


MD80
Flight Crew Cost $694
Fuel Cost $1,457
Other Costs $92

Total Flying Cost $2,242

Direct Main. - Airframe $203
Direct Main. - Engines $139
Total Direct Maintenance $342
Maintenance Burden $138

Total Maintenance Costs $480

Depreciation $247
Aircraft Rent $216

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,226
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4905
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:23 am

If I remember correctly, the MD-80 series typically have operating costs similar to second-gen 737s. like the -300.
Now, Delta's MD-88 has more efficient engines (I believe the -219) than AA's MD-82s.

Some of American's MD-80s are ancient... 1984 builds, etc. And, Delta's lease rates on the 737-832s must be painful, as bankrupt carriers (as Delta was at the time) don't get good terms.

I wouldn't be surprised at all that Delta's MD-88s are costing them less than 738s. Long term, of course, that will change.
 
trex8
Posts: 4618
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:26 am

AA numbers

738
Flight Crew Cost $738
Fuel Cost $1,248
Other Costs $50

Total Flying Cost $2,035

Direct Main. - Airframe $98
Direct Main. - Engines $24
Total Direct Maintenance $122
Maintenance Burden $84

Total Maintenance Costs $206

Depreciation $259
Aircraft Rent $113

Total Cost per Block Hour $2,628

Md80
Flight Crew Cost $603
Fuel Cost $1,489
Other Costs $54

Total Flying Cost $2,147

Direct Main. - Airframe $184
Direct Main. - Engines $165
Total Direct Maintenance $349
Maintenance Burden $238

Total Maintenance Costs $587

Depreciation $86
Aircraft Rent $192

Total Cost per Block Hour $3,093
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:31 am

Hmm, I wonder where do Delta's MD-90s fit in. The MD-90s have more fuel efficient engines than the MD-88s, but maintenance costs are probably very high for the MD-90s.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
However, AA's MD-80 fleet is more than twice as large as Delta's, and their oldest MD-82s were probably delivered before Delta's oldest MD-88. However, AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999.

You're right, the oldest AA MD-82 was built in 1983, while the oldest DL MD-88 was delivered in 1987. My understanding is the MD-88 is cheaper to operate as they have better engines than the MD-82, as someone earlier mentioned. But this does not apply to the younger MD-83's. Also, some of AA's very oldest MD-82's might not have the tail mod and therefore are more drag prone.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 4720
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Some of American's MD-80s are ancient... 1984 builds, etc. And, Delta's lease rates on the 737-832s must be painful, as bankrupt carriers (as Delta was at the time) don't get good terms.

DL owns there 737-800s

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 10):
You're right, the oldest AA MD-82 was built in 1983, while the oldest DL MD-88 was delivered in 1987. My understanding is the MD-88 is cheaper to operate as they have better engines than the MD-82, as someone earlier mentioned. But this does not apply to the younger MD-83's. Also, some of AA's very oldest MD-82's might not have the tail mod and therefore are more drag prone.

DL has 8 MD-82s and has modified them into 88s
tail #s: N901DE, N902DE, N903DE, N904DE, N906DE, N907DE, N908DE.....Ships 9001-9008
(N908DE is a shuttle a/c) Del 4/3/92-11/30/92....oldest 88 3/9/87 N901DL(which is leased) oldest non leased is N926DL 10/20/88
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
DL owns there 737-800s

and by own you mean they have a loan to pay for them, over 200K per month per plane or so.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
DL has 8 MD-82s and has modified them into 88s
tail #s:

Really, just eight? I know they was the first MD-80's they received but I thought it included the reg. #'s up to N912DL.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
The MD-90s have more fuel efficient engines than the MD-88s, but maintenance costs are probably very high for the MD-90s.

I think you're right with that assumption. In addition, compared to the MD-83 the MD-90 has less range.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:02 pm

Delta's numbers......

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 6):
Total Cost per Block Hour $3,098

^ 738

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 6):
Total Cost per Block Hour $3,226

^ MD88


Boy O Boy.......that sure is a whole heck of a lot closer than some diehard "B" fans care to admit. You guys still think those "antiquated" old maddogs desperately in need of a new, more efficient, wing.....are a true money hog?

HA HA  rotfl 


All hail to modern high-tech aviation science!!!! Saving the Earth.....one green plane at a time.  Yeah sure
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:41 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:32 pm

No wonder it's so hard to make money in the airline business. We could argue all night over how to begin figuring it: 738 crew makes that much more? Depreciation goes into operating costs? Say it does belong there, why would you have depreciation and rent in aircraft? Why such a huge difference in engine maintenance costs? I don't get this.
 
Flighty
Posts: 7717
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:34 pm

I would not believe those numbers for a second.

Ownership costs higher for a MD-80 than a 737 NG? Yeah right. Whatever. It is very unlikely the real numbers are available outside of DL and AA.
 
flyaas80
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:47 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:37 pm

Once again... LONG LIVE THE MADDOGS!  goodvibes 

I too find those numbers very hard to believe. I am a true fan of the MD80, don't get me wrong, I just find it a little hard to believe that those numbers are public knowledge.
The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:04 pm

If AA has over 300+ MD-80s, they must be doing something right with the aircraft. The 738 came online only to replace AA's 727 fleet. The MD-80 was a supplement to the 727. Now the 738 fleet is unlikely to ever see 300 airframes with AA, but probably 150 at the most. Remember, phasing out 300 MD-80s is not going to happen overnight. The 47 new 738s coming in the next 2-3 yrs will replace roughly the oldest 35-40 MD-80s, while adding some capacity.
Don't write off the Mad Dogs yet, they still have life in them for the foreseeable future.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
trex8
Posts: 4618
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
I would not believe those numbers for a second.

Ownership costs higher for a MD-80 than a 737 NG? Yeah right. Whatever. It is very unlikely the real numbers are available outside of DL and AA.

those are the numbers the airlines report to the DoT
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting Vasu (Reply 2):

Wow, never knew some were as young as this!

They came in via the TWA merger, as TWA got some of the last MD-80 family a/c that came off of the production line.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
I would not believe those numbers for a second.

I'm skeptical too, since the numbers came from a site dedicated to an airline management simulation game. That takes a bit of the credibility away in the info, even if it is the real numbers.


In some respects, perhaps it is more expensive for an airline to operate a 738 than a MD-88. Especially if they are used in completely different roles. If you're sending your 738s on longer runs the number of flights a day it can do is less, especially if you're using the MD-88s on shorter flights.

One of the advantages AA has with having hubs @ DFW, STL, and ORD, is that a good number of cities are reachable with the MD-80s. DL, on the other hand, does have that advantage due to the location of their hubs (and they shuttered their DFW hub several years back).
 
Someone83
Posts: 2977
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:47 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:16 pm

SAS claimed in their latest annual report that the cost of operating their MD-80 where aprox. equal to their 737NG. The fuel costs is of course much higher on the 737, but the Md-80 have been fully depreciated (in addition to being build to last forever......like their former DC-9, which many now flies for NW)
 
LH417AF025
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
DL has 8 MD-82s and has modified them into 88s

how do they modify an 82 into an 88? what does that entail?
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:31 pm

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 22):
how do they modify an 82 into an 88? what does that entail?

From the outside you can see the difference by the different tail cone as I have just been thought by a fellow a.netter
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
FlagshipAZ
Posts: 3192
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 12:40 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:32 pm

I believe the difference between the MD-82 and the MD-88, is that the -82 used the old dials & gauges in the cockpit while the -88 is all-glass. Plus minor engine tweaking too. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
TriStar500
Posts: 4411
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 1999 9:50 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 23):
From the outside you can see the difference by the different tail cone as I have just been thought by a fellow a.netter

That is just plain wrong. The "newer" tailcone became standard on any MD-80 produced after 1986/7 or so and was also available as a retrofit for older MD-80's.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 14):
one green plane at a time.

those costsa have nothing to do with "Green", only the fuel burn does.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 15):
Depreciation goes into operating costs?

It sure does, because as you use the plane it's value and useful life are diminished, so absolutely it belongs there.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
Now, Delta's MD-88 has more efficient engines (I believe the -219) than AA's MD-82s.

AA began a replacement program some time ago, to retrofit all MD-82's with the JT8D-219, replacing the JT8D-217. All of their MD-83's were delivered with the JT8D-219.

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 25):
That is just plain wrong. The "newer" tailcone became standard on any MD-80 produced after 1986/7 or so and was also available as a retrofit for older MD-80's.

AA is currently retrofitting the entire Super 80 fleet with the new tailcone.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 14):
Boy O Boy.......that sure is a whole heck of a lot closer than some diehard "B" fans care to admit. You guys still think those "antiquated" old maddogs desperately in need of a new, more efficient, wing.....are a true money hog?

Fanatic - a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal

Doesn't that describes your position well? You may think that $200 per hour is insignificant, but over the life of an airplane that adds up to millions of dollars. Over a fleet of airplanes, hundreds of millions of dollars. Your profile says your a small business owner. I would think anyone with business experience would appreciate reducing his expenses by 6-7%

Then again, it doesn't say if you're a successful SBO.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 21):
SAS claimed in their latest annual report that the cost of operating their MD-80 where aprox. equal to their 737NG. The fuel costs is of course much higher on the 737

How could the fuel costs of a 737NG be higher than on an MD-80?

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 24):
I believe the difference between the MD-82 and the MD-88, is that the -82 used the old dials & gauges in the cockpit while the -88 is all-glass.

The '88 actually isn't ALL glass...there are still backup steam gauges in the cockpit. It's more of a hybrid like the 75/67.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:35 am

With AA modifying the '82 with 219's and different tail cones does that make them more like '88's without glass cockpits.

AASTEW
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 30):
With AA modifying the '82 with 219's and different tail cones does that make them more like '88's without glass cockpits.

They aren't performing official conversions to MD-88, if that's what you meant?? They're just updating the fleet to be as fuel-efficient as possible with the new engines and updated tailcones.
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting TriStar500 (Reply 25):
That is just plain wrong. The "newer" tailcone became standard on any MD-80 produced after 1986/7 or so and was also available as a retrofit for older MD-80's.

Siis there another way to tell the difference between a MD 82,83,88 ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 31):
They aren't performing official conversions to MD-88, if that's what you meant?? They're just updating the fleet to be as fuel-efficient as possible with the new engines and updated tailcones.

They are getting the MD-88 style tailcone. The cockpits will remain the old-style.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 32):
Siis there another way to tell the difference between a MD 82,83,88 ?

In the cabin, I believe that one difference in the MD-88 is the lavatory signs. The MD-82 only has them at the lavatories, while the MD-88 has ceiling-mounted signs in the front and center of the cabin. The signs on the MD-88 say "FORWARD LAVATORIES OCCUPIED" and "AFT LAVATORIES OCCUPIED".

Also, I believe that the chime sounds (such as when the Fasten Seat Belt sign is turned on) the MD-88 makes is different from the MD-82 and MD-83. The MD-82 and MD-83 have a higher pitched chime than the MD-88. The chime on the MD-88 sounds more like chime on the 737 and 757.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1376
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 14):
Boy O Boy.......that sure is a whole heck of a lot closer than some diehard "B" fans care to admit. You guys still think those "antiquated" old maddogs desperately in need of a new, more efficient, wing.....are a true money hog?

HA HA

The difference between the two figures is $128/hour. Suppose each plane flies 4,000 hours per year for 10 years. That's 40,000 total hours. According to my math, 40,000 hours x $128/hour = $5,120,000 or $512,000 per plane per year.

Suppose now that you have a fleet of 150 planes. Suppose that you'd rather keep your money instead of paying it in expense. My math now says that $5,120,000/plane * 150 planes = $768,000,000. Just so we're clear, that's $768 million dollars, or roughly $76.8 million per year over the whole fleet.

Those numbers may not seem important in a company with billions of dollars in annual revenue, but these do not impact revenue; they speak directly to profit before taxes. Shareholders love that stuff, even if it's report as EBITDA or some other non-GAAP number, and companies love to trot it out because it makes investors happy and keeps the stock price up. And for American and Delta, that's the name of the game: the stock price.

Plus, these numbers are only the cost side. Which aircraft does a better job with revenue, both in paying passengers and in cargo? I don't know the answer without some research, but I'm wondering if the MD80 actually has as much after-fuel uplift as the 737. That is, after filling the planes with gas for identical flights, which one can carry more paying stuff?

Boy oh boy, you may not be looking at the whole picture and it may not be as rosy as one "MD80Fanatic" wants it to be. Keep crowing; next you can accuse of us conspiracies or something against the Mad Dog.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
as bankrupt carriers (as Delta was at the time) don't get good terms.

1) DL's aren't leases
2) One of the entire points of Chpt11 is cost negotiation--- that's why UA was seen parking 777s in favor of 747s not too long ago.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 29):
How could the fuel costs of a 737NG be higher than on an MD-80

simple: it carries more fuel (though interesting to note that some M80s can actually tank more than the 738)

[Edited 2007-08-18 20:10:52]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
cloudboy
Posts: 981
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:40 am

How does the 737NG stack up against the 717?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4919
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Cloudboy (Reply 37):
How does the 737NG stack up against the 717?

The 737-600 has more range than the 717, but is much heavier. The 717 is considered to be more efficient than the 737-600 for shorter routes. The operating costs of the 737-600 are barely any lower than the 737-700, which is why the 737-600 has been a poor seller.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Flighty
Posts: 7717
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:54 am

Assuming the MD-80 and B737 are close to equal -- and I believe they are -- the breakdown

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 35):

Suppose now that you have a fleet of 150 planes. Suppose that you'd rather keep your money instead of paying it in expense. My math now says that $5,120,000/plane * 150 planes = $768,000,000. Just so we're clear, that's $768 million dollars, or roughly $76.8 million per year over the whole fleet

Yeah, but those numbers don't scale well. I think AA and DL are both pretty smart; the benefits of growing / shrinking their 738 and MD80 fleets are likely very close to neutral, beyond what they are already doing.

It's necessary to replace the oldest MD80s due to wear and tear. Some planes naturally deteriorate faster, so they do need some B738s coming in. Would a total replacement result in higher profits, that is far from clear.

Then you need to think about laying off hundreds of mechanics, and what that costs. Pilot retraining / higher wages. And so on. When you change a fleet, you change its costs. So a static comparison does not always prove what is happening unless you know the company intimately.
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 4:09 am

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 14):
You guys still think those "antiquated" old maddogs desperately in need of a new, more efficient, wing.....are a true money hog?

I see mad dogs pulling mechanicals FAR more often than 738s, or even our old 732s. That's gotta count for something when the airplane is sitting on the ground and the terminal is full of angry passengers demanding compensation. I love flying on the MD88s and I wish I could give them more credit, but they really just don't compare to the 737s. Plus, from a ramp rat's point of view, the Mad Dog's bins are AWFUL!
This Website Censors Me
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 36):
Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 29):
How could the fuel costs of a 737NG be higher than on an MD-80

simple: it carries more fuel (though interesting to note that some M80s can actually tank more than the 738)

But it doesn't BURN as much. And if you're basing your cost theory on how much each a/c carries, than doesn't your statement about some 80's tanking more than the 738 contradict itself?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 33):
The cockpits will remain the old-style.

This isn't completely true either. AA has updated a lot of the cockpits with the glass displays. These aren't the newer ex-TW birds either, but some original AA birds are getting updated cockpits as well.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
AA operates MD-83s made as late as 1999.



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 5):
American has the MD-80 ever assembled. N984TW was built for TWA in late 1999.

While American has most all of the newest MD-80s on the books, many are sitting in storage or have been withdrawn from use. IIRC even N984TW is in storage at Roswell. Phasing down St. Louis, depeaking O'Hare and Dallas/Ft. Worth resulted in dozens of MD-80s being removed from service, most all of them being ex-TWA birds.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 42):
AA has updated a lot of the cockpits with the glass displays. These aren't the newer ex-TW birds either, but some original AA birds are getting updated cockpits as well.

The priority is update the flightdeck of the originally delivered MD-83's. I doubt the MD-82's will see the update.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 43):
While American has most all of the newest MD-80s on the books, many are sitting in storage or have been withdrawn from use. IIRC even N984TW is in storage at Roswell. Phasing down St. Louis, depeaking O'Hare and Dallas/Ft. Worth resulted in dozens of MD-80s being removed from service, most all of them being ex-TWA birds.

There are only a handful of 1999 build MD-83's that are in storage. They will likely at some point join the fleet again. Virtually all of the new MD-83's that were ex-TW, including N984TW, are in service. There are however many ex-TW MD-82's that are in storage, but these were built as early as 1983.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
Posts: 1376
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
Yeah, but those numbers don't scale well. I think AA and DL are both pretty smart; the benefits of growing / shrinking their 738 and MD80 fleets are likely very close to neutral, beyond what they are already doing.

My post didn't mention a fleet swap. It's a given that neither Delta nor American will be simply discarding the Mad Dog's in favor of 738's, for the simple reason that they need the capacity and that's what they've got. My point was that simply poo-poo'ing $126/hour/frame as being insignificant is bad business sense. Really bad. There's real money to be had and as another poster pointed out, a 7% reduction in costs should make any accountant sit bolt upright in his seat.

The real question is, "If both were available for purchase today, would they buy any MD80's?" I know where my money sits on that question.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
Would a total replacement result in higher profits, that is far from clear.

I fully agree, for two reasons, neither of which involves the short-term costs you cite. First, since 738's and MD80's may currently fly different profiles, it's reasonable to assume that the 738 numbers would change as the overall profile shifts when the 738 does 100% of the flying. Second (and I referenced this earlier) you must know revenue to compute profit. I don't really know what would happen there. It's possible that the 738 could have less revenue, offsetting its superior cost. As you correctly say, you need to know the company intimately.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
Then you need to think about laying off hundreds of mechanics, and what that costs. Pilot retraining / higher wages. And so on. When you change a fleet, you change its costs. So a static comparison does not always prove what is happening unless you know the company intimately.

First, if you do a one-for-one swap, why would you need to lay off 100's of mechanics? Those new birds need maintenance, too, even if it's slightly less in the near-term. Second, the numbers quoted above included the wages of the crews operating the metal, so they're already correctly accounted for. The 738 crews already make more than the Mad Dog crews and I'm not sure why you expect a futher increase in wages unless there is a clause which increases hourly pay as the fleet size increases.

But you're correct that you would have some costs associated with training mechanics and pilots. The good news is that these are short-term costs. Since the life of an airframe is a couple of decades, I doubt it's a compelling influence on long-term costs. But it might give a CEO short-term headaches if it makes the shareholder unhappy!
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
md80fanatic
Posts: 2365
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:29 pm

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
Fanatic - a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal

That's me. It's not often I get to spout off about my favorite plane.....but when the opportunity presents itself, you can count on me to issue a commentary.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 28):
I would think anyone with business experience would appreciate reducing his expenses by 6-7%

I run a different kind of business. I really don't care too much for money.....and actually run it so I can have more free time. I only work 2 days per week.....and my stress level is extremely low. My vehicle and equipment are paid for and well maintained. I guess I don't clearly see the logic in the notion of spending money to save money (which is the same as buying newfangled equipment (like the modern 738) in order to save a small percentage over what has always worked well and is payed for (the MD88). If I had to concern myself with 6-7%, then it's time for me to change professions.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 35):
$512,000 per plane per year.

Literally the profit from one day's operations per plane. Half a million is a big amount for me.....but to Delta it's a drop in the bucket. I cannot see this amount as being worth the effort of procurement and changing the infrastructure to support the new hardware, when the existing lineup still has many good years left in them.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 35):
Keep crowing; next you can accuse of us conspiracies or something against the Mad Dog.

No need to go there. Jealousy is what is plainly apparent.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 40):
but they really just don't compare to the 737s.

You are right.....there's no comparison.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 44):
Virtually all of the new MD-83's that were ex-TW, including N984TW, are in service.

I stand corrected! As I remember, a number of ex-TWA MD-80s were coming up on heavy maintenance, and, with the realignments at DFW/MIA/ORD/STL, these aircraft were mothballed.
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 46):
I guess I don't clearly see the logic in the notion of spending money to save money (which is the same as buying newfangled equipment (like the modern 738) in order to save a small percentage over what has always worked well and is payed for (the MD88). If I had to concern myself with 6-7%, then it's time for me to change professions.

It's probably good you don't have shareholders and employees to worry about, in a tigth margin, capitol intensive inducstry 6-7 % can make the difference between bankruptcy and keeping thousands of people in jobs.

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 46):
Literally the profit from one day's operations per plane. Half a million is a big amount for me.....but to Delta it's a drop in the bucket.

have you ever heard the term penny wise pound foolish? 500K is a big numer since as it was described this is pure profit and adds to the percentage of EBITDA completely.

The MD-80 was a good plane in it's day (Except for anyone sitting in the back of the plane, thanks to the crazy noise profile back there), but the 737-800 is a much more capable aircraft for most every airline.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: MD-80 Vs 737-800 Operating Costs

Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:11 am

Sorry for the typos. That's what I get with a new laptop and posting at 7AM.


Another thing to think about

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 46):
I cannot see this amount as being worth the effort of procurement and changing the infrastructure

Operating costs include depreciation and overhead, so that is included in the numbers above.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L