maxsa
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:20 pm

Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:14 pm

Good day!
I know that there is some inflation in the number of threads why not XX fly to TLV, but anyway, why Aer Lingus would not fly to TLV?
! I personally have some friends who tried to fly to Ireland and had a very difficult time finding a flight there. Finally they book with TK. Arkia flies there weekly (they do not have too much aircraft options) and allow booking only if you return after 7 days. I do not have a statistical source but in tourist agencies they have been told that there is an unprecedented surge in the number of Israelis traveling to Ireland.
Aer Lingus offers a very healthy number of connections to USA and that option also should be very popular with Israelis, while there is a huge number of people flying on the route USA-Israel and back and any addition of new connection option could be VERY welcome. There is also the added benefit of USA immigration pre clearance in Ireland
Any opinions/critic/ insights would be very welcome
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:40 pm

There are lots of possibilities for connections without going out of the way.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=D...STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

Israir has done charters previously.

Another thread:
RE: Why No Flights Betwenn Ireland And Israel? (by VV701 Dec 24 2006 in Civil Aviation)
 
maxsa
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:01 pm

Sorry did not notice the prevoius thread, regarding connections yes tey are, but I was thinking prices which are very high something about 600-650$ in September TLV_DUB and of course the US connections which may be very successfull
 
swiftski
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Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Maxsa (Reply 2):
of course the US connections which may be very successfull

I have to respectfully disagree. I love EI having flown the a number of times, however connecting to the US market will always be better facilitated through mainland Europe (LH/LX, AF/KLM/NW) and through London than it ever will be through Ireland.

Additionally, with CO DL and LY all operating non stop TLV-NYC routes, the majority of the US is opened up for connections right there.
 
maxsa
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:20 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:29 pm

As far as I know Israelis if EI will offer fares to USA for 1$ cheaper the will have to buy 747 to serve Israeli market ( a bit of exaggeration) but Israelis will travel whatever cheaper and despite a lot of direct flights prices are sky high during the summer and tickets rather hard to find.
Anyway than you veru much for such a respectful answer
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12602
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:16 pm

I would suggest several reasons why they may not want to go there. First is the long running security issues in Israel and the West Bank territories (where many Christian pilgrims would like to got to) may limit consistent interest in non-stop flights between Ireland and TLV. I don't know if there is enough biz pax, where the profits are made, to make the flight profitable. As to operating flights between DUB and TLV for connecting pax from the USA, I don't think the pricing would work out (flights are not particularly cheap between the USA and DUB), there would be enough flights between DUB and TLV in case of delays vs. other EU hub airports like LHR, CDG, FRA as well as the SNN/DUB - USA flight restrictions to keep SNN open. Then there is the preference for non-stop or direct flights between the USA and TLV including Israir and charters. As to connecting flights, you have well established flights between the USA and to hub of KLM, LH, BA, and so on.
 
awthompson
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:38 pm

Please don't quote me on the following observations but by reading trade press particularly trade union publications, one cannot avoid noticing an obvious Pro-Palestinian movement in the south of Ireland which translates into anti Israeli sentiment. Trade Union press has even stooped to campaigning against Irish companies doing business with Israel. With Aer Lingus being heavily unionised, you can make your own judgements on whether this might be a factor.

I would certainly comment that this stance is not followed I hope by the majority of people here including myself and I feel ashamed even to make the above comment.
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting Maxsa (Reply 4):
As far as I know Israelis if EI will offer fares to USA for 1$ cheaper the will have to buy 747 to serve Israeli market ( a bit of exaggeration) but Israelis will travel whatever cheaper and despite a lot of direct flights prices are sky high during the summer and tickets rather hard to find.
Anyway than you veru much for such a respectful answer

I understand where you're coming from - my GF lives in ANR and it Jewish - she travels regularly to TLV from BRU and LON, and usually finds connecting (from BRU) cheaper, this week via ZRH and FRA on the outbound and inbound respectively.

The STN route is very popular for TLV flights as it's usually cheaper than the LHR route, plus it's easier to access from the North London Jewish communities who usually frequent the flights.

Whilst carriers like AF/KLM operate narrowbodies to TLV (320, 739), LH/LX both operate widebodies (744, 343, 346) in addition to LX's 320/1 service. BA operate 2x widebody (1x767, 1xT7), CO operate a T7 (often Peter Max), LY op a widebody to LHR as well as to NYC; they also operate a narrowbody to ZRH, FRA, etc. Plus, as I say, there's LY1 direct to JFK with the rest of the US opening up from there onwards. Of course there's AC who connect to a lot of the US as well.
 
FLYGUY767
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 7):
Whilst carriers like AF/KLM operate narrowbodies to TLV (320, 739),

Air France-KLM have a much more keen interests in the region and that is:

Air France CDG-BEY 777-300
Air France CDG-BEY 330-200 x 2 Operated by MEA

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
EI564
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 6):
Trade Union press has even stooped to campaigning against Irish companies doing business with Israel. With Aer Lingus being heavily unionised, you can make your own judgements on whether this might be a factor.

I've never noticed this. The political situation there doesn't encourage Irish people to travel there, although many still do.

Not that EI management would care about what their unions think anyhow (if they think the route could be profitable). EI would never set up the route because of connection potential. It needs to stand on its own feet. On the other hand, it is gradually moving eastwards, with Athens and Bucharest been added recently to its network. Tel Aviv could happen in the medium term but only with something like a 3 a week service IMO.
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:37 am

I doubt that there is sufficient demand to make this route profitable. Probably very little O&D traffic, and as others point out, hubs in other European cities offer plenty of connections between DUB and TLV.

I think a better question is why doesn't SK resume flights to TLV. I believe that Scandinavia could support direct flights to TLV better than Ireland could.
 
seanjohn
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:13 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:39 am

Awthompson

Your reply 7 can not possibly go un answered even if you do not wish anyone to further quote you! Where has your information and comments come from? I admit that the situation in the region is less than perfect but I was not aware that Ireland, or Irish people, took sides - publicily or otherwise.

As to your union comments there was a time when the power of the unions was great but not in the last 8/10 years. In fact the unions have become some what public enemy material. If you were swayed by the recent Aer Lingus action, don't be! The pilots believe they have won a great victory, what in effect they have done is create a seriously difficult situation for themselves and their company! The Belfast base will go ahead and it will be very successful for Aer Lingus and Northern Ireland.

Happy Landings
J
 
kaitak
Posts: 9074
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:12 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 6):
an obvious Pro-Palestinian movement in the south of Ireland which translates into anti Israeli sentiment. Trade Union press has even stooped to campaigning against Irish companies doing business with Israel. With Aer Lingus being heavily unionised, you can make your own judgements on whether this might be a factor.

I would certainly comment that this stance is not followed I hope by the majority of people here including myself and I feel ashamed even to make the above comment.

Firstly, although there may well be a pro-Palestinian element in Ireland (and I don't think it's a large or particularly prominent one), that doesn't automatically translate into an anti-Israeli sentiment. We can be in favour of Palestinian independence without being anti-Israeli and I don't think there is any great level of anti-semitism in Ireland (certainly not more than other EU countries) and our anti-hate legislation would certainly come down heavily on any such sentiments.

However, that's drifting off the point. Arkia currently operates a weekly 753 service to Dublin (tonight in fact ... oops, you've missed it!). As to whether EI would consider it, I don't see why not, but for low cost carriers the extra security costs would be a concern.

Also, as previous posters have said, there are many, many different ways of getting from DUB-TLV - via CDG, AMS, LHR, FRA etc - take your pick.

L'chaim!
 
EI321
Posts: 4788
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:43 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Maxsa (Reply 4):
As far as I know Israelis if EI will offer fares to USA for 1$ cheaper the will have to buy 747 to serve Israeli market ( a bit of exaggeration) but Israelis will travel whatever cheaper and despite a lot of direct flights prices are sky high during the summer and tickets rather hard to find.

Apart from the low(er) fares, DUB (and SNN) is unique in being able to offer US immigration pre clearance which believe me is a relief after being on a long flight and being able to go straight through JKF. I have also found the US officials in DUB to be a lot friendlier than the ones in JFK. However as an airport, DUB does not have good connection facilities. There will be a new terminal open in 2 or 3 years which should improve this.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 5):
I don't know if there is enough biz pax, where the profits are made, to make the flight profitable

EI has no biz class on the A320/321
 
awthompson
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:59 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 11):
Your reply 7 can not possibly go un answered even if you do not wish anyone to further quote you! Where has your information and comments come from? I admit that the situation in the region is less than perfect but I was not aware that Ireland, or Irish people, took sides - publicity or otherwise.

Really, there is no problem quoting me within the context of this site.

I would like to think that Airlines would not be bothered by this type of stance and you are correct about airlines and UK / Irish companies being less swayed by union opinion than in the past.

However I felt my comment needed to be made at least to attract some responses. I don't wish to say too much on this forum however my comments are largely based on an article I saw within the last year in the monthly journal of a large transport union. Quite shockingly to me it described, and supported an Irish pro-Palestine movement. It gave details of a particular website promoting the cause, and was encouraging a campaign to prevent an Irish company getting a certain contract to supply Israel with goods.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 12):
Firstly, although there may well be a pro-Palestinian element in Ireland (and I don't think it's a large or particularly prominent one), that doesn't automatically translate into an anti-Israeli sentiment.

Very unfortunately it does. I have just managed to find the website to which the article referred. I don't wish to help their cause in any way so I will not post that address but you will find it very easily by using keywords Ireland and Palestine. It is anti-Israel from the word go. You will be shocked if you are not already aware of what is happening.

Based on the fact that this website and its activities were being supported by a large Trade Union which I believe has Aer Lingus employees, I was not surprised at the title of this thread.

I would like to make it very clear that I, and I hope the vast majority of Airliners.netters would not support such a stance. I prefer not to comment further as I cannot claim to be particularly knowledgeable on the subject, only by reading what I have described.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 21514
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 14):
I hope the vast majority of Airliners.netters would not support such a stance

I'm pro Palestinian and not ashamed to say so !!! On the other hand I'm not Anti Israeli either!!! I am against certain policies of the Israeli government but you cant blame the people for that . Not everyone votes for their current leaders. The bombing of BEY last year was one such wrong policy in my book as it affected civilians.

I would welcome an air service by EI or EL AL into Ireland and welcome Israeli / Palestinian tourists also.

The thing I hate in Northern Ireland is that in Loyalist council estates they have Israeli flags flying and in the Republican estates they fly the Palestinian flag!!! Just shows you how much low life there is still around .
 
brightcedars
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:51 am

I have to say that the most obvious reason as far as I can see is the market size and potential market share.

Based on no factual data, I don't believe there is much traffic between DUB & TLV to warrant a frequent enough (at least 3 weekly) service. Also, I think business travel would be even more limited and with customers who may be keen to fly via a hub to clock miles and recognition with their favorite alliance. And not the least, being one of the Westernmost points in Europe, the connecting traffic market cannot be tapped, which is often a break even factor on many routes.

Same goes for BEY as far as I'm concerned. even AMS, BRU and MAD didn't manage to maintain a BEY connection despite large transatlantic networks, not being natural strong enough point-to-point traffic sources and being to the West in comparison to other hubs.
I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:02 am

Market forces, not politics, is the real reason why EI does not fly to TLV. Simply put, there is no significant demand for these flights. If the demand existed, EI and/or LY would fly between DUB and TLV regardless of what the majority in either country think about the conflicts in the Middle East or Northern Ireland. For example, opinion polls indicate that Israeli policies towards the Palestinians are deeply unpopular in Spain and Turkey. Yet, IB and TK offer many daily flights to TLV, and both airlines appear to do very well on this route.
 
rineanna
Posts: 765
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:33 am

RE: Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 16):



Quoting IAD380 (Reply 17):

 checkmark   checkmark 
Exactly. Both of these posts hit the nail on the head. While there would be some demand between Ireland and Israel, as is said above, this would be covered adequately by connecting with AF, KLM, etc. The IZ flights, or so I heard in the lead up to their launch, haven't exactly been performing spectacularly.

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 14):
Quite shockingly to me it described, and supported an Irish pro-Palestine movement. It gave details of a particular website promoting the cause, and was encouraging a campaign to prevent an Irish company getting a certain contract to supply Israel with goods.

I took a look at this movement, and I didn't have to go past their homepage to notice their 'interesting' phrasing. This is a minority group (understatement), who from a brief look through their site have some choice methods of getting their strong anti-Israeli opinion across. Their opinions and methods certainly don't speak for the whole of the ROI, and I would strongly doubt that any pro-Palestine (or indeed pro-Israeli) movement would have any influence on whether an Israeli-Ireland flght come come to fruitition should there be demand for one. As was said before, if there were demand for a flight, then there would be a flight. The Spain/Turkey analogy explains that perfectly, IMO.

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