Falcon84
Topic Author
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USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:53 am

Just got done reading with a mixture of anger and amusement, the lead editorial in the August 20th USAToday, entitled "How airlines mistreat fliers and get Congress to go along." I have rarely read such a piece of irresponsible, negative ranting, with no solutions journalism, in my life.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2007/08/our-view-on-air.html#more

1. There is no airline number for any airline that is "1669Y". USAToday was obviously given a boarding pass from a disgruntled customer, and didn't ask anyone how to read it. Typical idiocy from newspapers.

2. There's no explaination about WHY the plane was diverted; what conditions caused the diverson; why the plane just can't leave when it must. Nothing. No information.

3. No explaination about the ATC system. None.

4. No explaination as to why the doors on a flight from another nation cannot just be opened, and that that is a GOVERNMENT rule.

Their answer? "There outta be a law". That's it. And a bunch of complaints about lobbyists, which I share in general-but no answers, just negative ranting.

Airlines aren't perfect, God knows, but it's tiring to be treated as a punching bag for irresponsible journalist entities, and by uneducated customers (the latter on some occasions, not all).

I urge all airline employees who feel the same to send an email to USAToday at letters@usatoday.com and tell them to come up with solutions, not just negative ranating. I already did. I'll share my letter with you when I get home tonight.

None of us like delays. It's irritating when someone like USAToday takes pot-shots, and don't even have the balls to give solutions.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
eatmybologna
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:08 am

Falcon84,

though some of the facts are left out, journalism, quoted from the American Heritage Dictionary, is a "style of writing characteristic of material in newspapers and magazines, consisting of direct presentation of facts or occurrences with little attempt at analysis or interpretation."

This is a piece about a lack of laws set in place to protect consumers' rights. It's not the paper's responsibility to come up with solutions, but rather the duty of legislature and congressional bodies. This composition was printed in order to apply pressure on congress to enact.

[Edited 2007-08-21 00:10:22]
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
Cory6188
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:14 am

It is a bit ridiculous.....especially given the unique circumstances surrounding international flights that the opinion piece blatantly failed to even research in the slightest. It sure discredits USA Today as a reputable news source, in my opinion, when they can't even be bothered to do basic research before posting such a opinionated article. Flight 1669Y? Come on, as Falcon84 pointed out, what flight has anyone ever been on where there was a letter at the end? Did they not bother to find out that the "Y" simply means that the pax traveled in coach?

Argh...  banghead 
 
cedarjet
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:20 am

You guys are hilarious. The boarding card says 1669Y and you seize upon this to discredit the whole piece. Loads of flight numbers do contain a letter, anyway the way US carriers treat their customers is a national disgrace, and while it's easier to shoot the messenger, I suggest you take a minute to look at the real problem, eg, the state of the industry and how it uses "terror" laws against normal passengers, in this case where the pax were treated like criminals merely because they wanted - as I, and you, would have - to get off after sitting without food etc on the BWI tarmac for hours. That it has become a wise move to carry some emergency rations of food on a US flight, as I will from now on, shows how bad things have got. And instead you decide to attack USA Today cos they accidentally added a single letter to the flight number of the flight in question?
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
travatl
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
It sure discredits USA Today as a reputable news source

Uh, duh, it's McPaper........
 
style
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 3):
suggest you take a minute to look at the real problem, eg, the state of the industry and how it uses "terror" laws against normal passengers, in this case where the pax were treated like criminals merely because they wanted - as I, and you, would have - to get off after sitting without food etc on the BWI tarmac for hours.

It's not the industry that uses 'terror' laws to treat passengers this way, why don't you try looking at the government and the failing ATC system. If the article were about how airlines overbook flights and don't get passengers to their vacation spots because of it then I would be in total agreement.

The OP is correct, he pointed out many valid points and not just the '1699Y'. Up until now I have respected USA Today's aviation coverage but this just goes to show how much they are out of touch with the actual problems in aviation today.

Instead of saying that the airline kept them stuck in a plane for hours, why didn't they say that its the government that doesn't allow passengers to disembark the plane?
 
iaddca
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:41 am

The article reads like it was written by a high school op-ed staffer. The $2 million spent on lobbyists impacts the industry's financials about as much as a .00001 cent increase in the price of Jet A. Still, to keep with USAToday fashion, I would have liked to have seen one of those charts they're famous for.
 
jetblue32
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:41 am

As a CSA I can understand your frustration, and I understand how frustrating they delays and long tarmac waits are, but USAToday and the writiers of this article are way out of line in saying the solution is to pass laws and use strong-arm tactics on the airlines. With all the heat I have to take from customers, not to mention the hours I have spent sitting on the tarmac at JFK and other crowded airports when I non-rev, I would wish more than anything that we could have a quick solution to this problem. But the truth is we don't have any choice with the outdated and overcrowded ATC systems we have to work with. Not to mention they have very poor communication; they will tell us an hour or two, then extend it at the last minute, or not have any answers for us when the time comes we were originally told a ground hold would be released. You really think imposing fines on the airlines or forcing them to give greater financial compensation in situations beyond their control is going to fix the problem? Or you could limit the amount of time they are allowed to sit on the tarmac, but that would only force them to return to the gate and cancel your flight all together, when you might otherwise have been able to finally take off in a few minutes. Better late than never, right? For now your best bet is to anticipate these problems and plan accordingly. Take early morning flights that are less likely to be delayed or cancelled (that's what I do when I non-rev). Don't book a flight that only arrives two hours before an important business meeting, or a wedding or funeral, or a cruise ship departure; odds are you won't make it, especially if you take an afternoon or evening flight. And if you do get delayed, getting belligerant to airline personnel or threatening to sue and making other empty threats will get you nowhere. If USAToday (or the people who wrote this article) get their way, the only guarantee that you will have is paying a considerably higher fare, either for fewer available seats/flights, or for the legal costs the airlines will have to pay out as a result of something that really is beyond their control for the moment. As I said before, I hate the situation as much as you or anyone else, but scapegoating or strong-arming the airlines and their employees will only make the sitaution worse, not better.
 
charlienorth
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:42 am

Definitely written by someone who has no clue....at least There was a more realistic column in the Chicago Tribune
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/o...d0816chapmanaug16,0,7596789.column
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
redngold
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:43 am

IMHO, getting exercised about a USAToday piece is futile. I've heard the president/CEO of the company speak, and it became obvious after listening to him that he's all about selling newspapers and pleasing the public rather than getting involved in quality journalism.

Also, remember that the piece you're upset about is an editorial - an opinion piece, not an article (although I don't expect your average USAToday reader to be as discerning about that difference.)

Edit: spell

[Edited 2007-08-21 00:59:54]
Up, up and away!
 
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Coal
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
It sure discredits USA Today as a reputable news source

It really is starting to get to me when people are surprised at the journalistic quality of USA Today, Time, or Fox News. For that matter, you should be getting your news from Us Weekly, which to me is a much more reputable source of information than the picture-clad USA Today.

Let us know when you grow up and start reading the NY Times or the IHT.

Quoting Travatl (Reply 4):
Uh, duh, it's McPaper........

 checkmark 

Cheers
Coal
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flyabr
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:47 am

once the government updates/fixes the air traffic control system...then they can go witch hunting at the airlines. until then...forget about it! course we all know how long it'll be before there is any progress on the ATC system!
 
rdwelch
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:53 am

The funny thing is that USA Today is read by a LARGE number of air travelers. The preeminent free hotel newspaper in the nation. Just take a look around at all the left over copies after every bank of flights and you can get an idea of the influence it has on the traveling public, not just the business traveler. However, like everything else we choose to read what we read and draw our own conclusions from that.

I personally like the sudoku and crossword section, but everything else isn't my cup of tea.

Gus
They say I have ADD, but they don't understand..Oh look! A chicken!
 
halls120
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I have rarely read such a piece of irresponsible, negative ranting, with no solutions journalism, in my life

You obviously don't read USA Today very often, do you? It's the crappiest newspaper in the country.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
DashTrash
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:17 am

Sorry guys, but when I'm sitting in the cockpit looking at open gates with ops telling me that mine is occupied and I'm going to have to wait, I'm on USA Today's side.

Entirely too many times I've shown up to operate a flight, and find out it's been canceled from the gate agent. No call from my company.

How about the time(s) all 50 passengers busted their connections because ops didn't want to change our gate leading to us waiting over an hour for ours to open up(see opening statement).

What about the time(s) we pushed an hour late because the airline didn't send in the fuel order, or the aircraft didn't get catered, or lav serviced, etc.

The airline industry in the US is absolute shit.

While no mention about ATC was made in the article, does ATC force the airlines to fly 100 flights into an airport that can only handle 90?

Who's fault is it that an airplane diverts, then sits for several hours on the ramp full of passengers while they're staring at open gates?

Who's fault is it that the airline doesn't at very least send a catering truck and lav truck out to an airplane that's been sitting to replenish the galleys and service the shitters. That my friend, CAN be done on the ramp away from a gate.

As far as having a letter in the flight number, airlines will add that when there is more than one airplane with that flight number in the air. US used to fly NAS-CLT-LGA with the same flight number, but with an aircraft swap. When the NAS-CLT segment was late, the "continuation" to LGA would leave on time, with a letter behind the flight number to differentiate between the two.

Air Wisconsin adds a letter to continuing flight segments as a regular practice.

I won't say that the airlines are responsible for all the bullshit, but they are responsible for the majority of it.
 
SPREE34
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 2):
It sure discredits USA Today as a reputable news source,

ROFLMAO! Like Travatl says, "McPaper", and that's probably an insult to the clown.

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 3):
I suggest you take a minute to look at the real problem, eg, the state of the industry and how it uses "terror" laws against normal passengers, in this case where the pax were treated like criminals merely because they wanted - as I, and you, would have - to get off after sitting without food etc on the BWI tarmac for hours.

Been there seen that. It should be replaced with Customer Service. Quit hiding behind phrases that start with FAA or TSA. Charge what the seat is worth, then provide the service.

Quoting Style (Reply 5):
failing ATC system

The ATC system? That one is getting old as well. When the carriers schedule 129 flights into a time period where the airport can accept 65, that is not ATC. It is a lack of concrete and gates at the field and ATC has no control over that. All of the neatest ATC hardware in the world will not fix that.

Quoting Jetblue32 (Reply 7):
but USAToday and the writiers of this article are way out of line in saying the solution is to pass laws and use strong-arm tactics on the airlines

Correct. Customer Service is the solution, but hey, we are talking US carriers, who with an exception or two, have forgotten what that is. As long as pax put up with it nothing will change.

Quoting Jetblue32 (Reply 7):
outdated and overcrowded ATC systems

ATC? Huh? Again, how is it ATCs fault when 120+ arrivals are scheduled into a field that can accept 60+? Please, explain this to me.
How is it ATC's fault when there are not enough gates? They don't control gates.
Outdated, or at least behind I'll give you. Overcrowded? Rarely. When weather takes away airspace the planes have to squeeze into less space. When the carriers have over scheduled an airport, airplanes have to hold, thus squeezing more airspace.

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 11):
once the government updates/fixes the air traffic control system...then they can go witch hunting at the airlines. until then...forget about it! course we all know how long it'll be before there is any progress on the ATC system!

Again, the ATC system is a minuscule factor, if any, in most of the delays. ATC is no factor at all in cancellations. ATC cannot cancel a flight. Only the carrier can cancel a flight, and they do it for their convenience and logistics further down line.
I am against more government interference in the industry. More government rules and laws will just further bog down already failing businesses. Passengers need to quit taking the crap quietly. I don't mean mutiny on the airplane, don't crap on the FAs, but once out of the plane start the bitching. Complain right away to the airline reps at the destination. Write the company. And if your are stuck on the tarmac, whip out your mobile phone and start calling the TV stations.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
LINATE
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 15):
I am against more government interference in the industry. More government rules and laws will just further bog down already failing businesses. Passengers need to quit taking the crap quietly. I don't mean mutiny on the airplane, don't crap on the FAs, but once out of the plane start the bitching. Complain right away to the airline reps at the destination. Write the company. And if your are stuck on the tarmac, whip out your mobile phone and start calling the TV stations.



Amen SPREE34. You brought up very god and objective points on your posting. I totally agree with you.
I haven't however found an effective way of complaining. It does not seem to go anywhere with the airline business going the way it is. But maybe if a lot of people start doing it it will get better.

I hope that some of the FA's in this forum at one point realize that reacting defensively towards the pain that the passengers are feeling nowadays is not going to help the airlines at all, and start acting constructively towards a solution or at least a mitigation.

cheers,
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:29 am

I fail to see how more laws are going to solve anything. Newspaper blogs exist for the sole purpose of bitching and moaning.

What needs to be happen is internal overhaul from the airlines, not more government regulation. The airlines need to kick their own ass, not have the government do it.

Quoting Coal (Reply 10):
It really is starting to get to me when people are surprised at the journalistic quality of USA Today, Time, or Fox News. For that matter, you should be getting your news from Us Weekly, which to me is a much more reputable source of information than the picture-clad USA Today.

Exactly. Ive had many many issues with the media. Not just for stuff like this, but when I used to do non profit work, I had a couple of run ins. Journalistic quality for the most part isnt very good. Ill use the recent China Airlines situation. The first thing the media came out and said was that Since 1994 over 1000 people have died from CI incidents. Not true, only 688 have. Granted that still isnt good, but the media took it upon themselves to distort the facts (it was CNN). In fact 825 people have died in CI incidents in their existance. It just bothers me the way they do this.
It is what it is...
 
rampart
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 14):
Sorry guys, but when I'm sitting in the cockpit looking at open gates with ops telling me that mine is occupied and I'm going to have to wait, I'm on USA Today's side.

 checkmark   checkmark  Those of you complaining about USAToday's journalism ought to read DashTrash's whole post above. Pretty revealing.

As a mere passenger, no connection whatsoever to the travel industry, I'll walk through the OP's original complaints:

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
1. There is no airline number for any airline that is "1669Y". USAToday was obviously given a boarding pass from a disgruntled customer, and didn't ask anyone how to read it. Typical idiocy from newspapers.

OMG, stop the presses! The author mistakenly inserted an alphanumeral! Must have been written by a 6th grader.  Yeah sure Please! I'm far more concerned about the critique of this article here in this thread than I am about a typo in the paper.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
2. There's no explaination about WHY the plane was diverted; what conditions caused the diverson; why the plane just can't leave when it must. Nothing. No information.

First of all, was there space to print that information? This wasn't a long article. Furthermore, does the "why" matter a whole lot? Not to a passenger stuck on a diverted plane. How about explanations of "why?" for the passenger? I'm sure better communications from the crew might relieve some anxiety. Long waits in cramped cabins seem to be more common than ever. It's not healthy. Something *should* be done about that. Airlines, including you employees doing the whining here, need to remember that they are service industries where customers are the priority.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. No explaination about the ATC system. None.

Was it even relevant here? Maybe, maybe not. That wasn't the focus of this particular (again, short) article, though I have seen good journalism recently on the ATC problems. Not like it's an ignored story.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
4. No explaination as to why the doors on a flight from another nation cannot just be opened, and that that is a GOVERNMENT rule.

That's a consideration, sure, but 2nd or 3rd tier in my mind. Again, see my response to #2 above. Foreign travellers require the same attention and comfort that domestic travellers do. Someone needs to figure out how to handle these situations, even for flights arriving from foreign destinations.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
I urge all airline employees who feel the same to send an email to USAToday at letters@usatoday.com and tell them to come up with solutions, not just negative ranating. I already did. I'll share my letter with you when I get home tonight.

Journalists should listen to different points of view, true. I would be willing to bet that the airline employee responses would be overwhelmed. But aren't airlines already getting a strong voice via lobbyists? Where do passengers and customers turn? Nowhere but the press. Hence these types of articles.

On threads like this, I wonder if you airline employees realize that sometimes garden variety passengers like me are reading what you write. As a fan and supporter, I sympathize with your positions most of the time. This thread, however, looks like petty whining to me. I assume you aren't showing your true colors, and most of you really do like attending to customers or you wouldn't be in the job. I assume that there's plenty more office talk about the annoying passengers of the day that I wouldn't hear about. Just as there's plenty of around the office and at home discussion of the annoying airline employee of the day. A.net must be one of those rare places where the two can collide.

After all that, I would conclude that the USAToday article is one of many that strikes a chord with travellers like me, grammar and research taken for what it's worth.

-Rampart
 
halls120
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 18):
After all that, I would conclude that the USAToday article is one of many that strikes a chord with travellers like me, grammar and research taken for what it's worth.

USAToday is a sorry excuse for quality journalism. That anyone puts stock in anything they produce is a sad example of what the American public accepts these days.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
USAToday is a sorry excuse for quality journalism. That anyone puts stock in anything they produce is a sad example of what the American public accepts these days.

I never said USAToday was quality journalism. It is, for better or worse, mass journalism, and read by millions. Believe it or not, many of those readers are capable of critical thinking. I do point out that what the article says is similar to what I hear other passengers say, and what other media outlets have said. Instead of insulting my position, which happens to agree with this one of many media reports, how about acknowledging that I have a relevant concern, with which you may or may not agree?

Sadder of what the American public accepts these days is callousness and snobbery. Sound familiar? Probably not.

-Rampart
 
halls120
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 20):
It is, for better or worse, mass journalism, and read by millions. Believe it or not, many of those readers are capable of critical thinking.

Sorry, but I think people who rely on USAToday as their primary news source are as intellectually lazy as they come. Call me a snob if you want, but when there numerous other news sources available that actually produce and print quality, well-researched and documented articles, reading USAToday is like getting your news from the National Enquirer.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 20):
Instead of insulting my position, which happens to agree with this one of many media reports, how about acknowledging that I have a relevant concern, with which you may or may not agree?

I wasn't insulting your position. I was insulting USAToday. And yes, I am insulting anyone who primarily relies on USAToday for their news. Flame me if you want - that is my opinion. Which last time I checked, I'm entitled to have.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 21):
I wasn't insulting your position. I was insulting USAToday. And yes, I am insulting anyone who primarily relies on USAToday for their news. Flame me if you want - that is my opinion. Which last time I checked, I'm entitled to have.

Maybe you didn't realize that you were in effect insulting my position. To quote you directly:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
That anyone puts stock in anything they produce...

Well, that would be me, because I obviously took stock in the article, evidenced from my first post, because large parts of it rang true for me. But it isn't unusual, as we've seen many similar pieces from NY Times to Newsweek to Wall Street Journal.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the paper's quality. I don't lump it in with the Enquirer or Us, but certainly not a "paper of record". I do recognize it as a very large mass media voice. And still, the particular opinion piece in question is quite common.

Because I happen to read USAToday when someone posts a link on a forum or when it's all I have in a hotel room, I'm not entitled to my opinion as well? Or, more precisely, my opinion isn't as good as yours? To dismiss this opinion, my opinion, and many other travellers', simply based on where we read is the height of arrogance. Please tell me this isn't what you imply.

I hope my clarification makes sense.

-Rampart
 
StuckInCA
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
None of us like delays. It's irritating when someone like USAToday takes pot-shots, and don't even have the balls to give solutions.

Why should a newspaper (albeit a poor one) be solving problems in the aviation industry?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 1):
It's not the paper's responsibility to come up with solutions, but rather the duty of legislature and congressional bodies. This composition was printed in order to apply pressure on congress to enact.

Yep.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 19):
USAToday is a sorry excuse for quality journalism. That anyone puts stock in anything they produce is a sad example of what the American public accepts these days.

....like what they accept as airline product.
 
LINATE
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:44 am

Quoting Rampart (Reply 18):
On threads like this, I wonder if you airline employees realize that sometimes garden variety passengers like me are reading what you write. As a fan and supporter, I sympathize with your positions most of the time. This thread, however, looks like petty whining to me. I assume you aren't showing your true colors, and most of you really do like attending to customers or you wouldn't be in the job. I assume that there's plenty more office talk about the annoying passengers of the day that I wouldn't hear about. Just as there's plenty of around the office and at home discussion of the annoying airline employee of the day. A.net must be one of those rare places where the two can collide.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
You could not have said it better! Especially the whining part.
 
halls120
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 22):
Because I happen to read USAToday when someone posts a link on a forum or when it's all I have in a hotel room, I'm not entitled to my opinion as well? Or, more precisely, my opinion isn't as good as yours?

Your opinion is every bit as valid as mine. Never meant to imply anything else. Hell, it may be even more valid than mine. Note that I haven't commented on anything in this thread other than USAToday.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 22):
To dismiss this opinion, my opinion, and many other travellers', simply based on where we read is the height of arrogance. Please tell me this isn't what you imply.

I'm not dismissing your opinion - just your choice of reading material.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
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RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 25):
Your opinion is every bit as valid as mine. Never meant to imply anything else. Hell, it may be even more valid than mine. Note that I haven't commented on anything in this thread other than USAToday.


I'm not dismissing your opinion - just your choice of reading material.

Thanks for clarifying that.
In this case, we all had the same reading material, assuming we all read the linked article. I was commenting on the article without a position on the paper itself. Consistent with my first post, that is where I think this discussion should take place.

-Rampart
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Cedarjet (Reply 3):
Loads of flight numbers do contain a letter

Show me one commercial flight in the US that has a letter in it? Can't find it? Because there are none.

The letters indicate a fare classification, nothing else. Reason I pointed that out is that if they can't get that right, maybe they have no business commenting on something they obviously don't understand.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 14):
Sorry guys, but when I'm sitting in the cockpit looking at open gates with ops telling me that mine is occupied and I'm going to have to wait, I'm on USA Today's side.

For a domestic flight, I agree. But for an international, that HAS to clear customs, due to Federal Law? Different ballgame.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 18):
Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
3. No explaination about the ATC system. None.

Was it even relevant here?

 rotfl  It's at the center of what happened. It diverted due to weather, and air traffic. So, duh, it's relevant.  Yeah sure

Quoting Rampart (Reply 18):
That's a consideration, sure, but 2nd or 3rd tier in my mind.

Second or third? Uh, look at it this way: if customers on an inbound international were allowed to deplane somehow, without customs, there woldn't be a story here. So methinks you don't understand the relevance of this too well.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Cory6188
Posts: 2609
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 12:29 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Coal (Reply 10):
It really is starting to get to me when people are surprised at the journalistic quality of USA Today, Time, or Fox News. For that matter, you should be getting your news from Us Weekly, which to me is a much more reputable source of information than the picture-clad USA Today.Let us know when you grow up and start reading the NY Times or the IHT.

Yeah, you're right - I was surprised by the journalistic quality of USA Today. I rarely read it - we get the New York Times for free at school - so I read that nearly every day instead. Pardon me for being so immature.  Yeah sure
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3938
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:31 pm

I used to buy a USAToday every time I travel for reading material. Not anymore! The only thing in there worthwhile is the crossword puzzle, and even then, I can get that anywhere. Their "journalism" is nothing more than opinions and twisted info compiled into articles with pretty pictures.
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
It's at the center of what happened. It diverted due to weather, and air traffic. So, duh, it's relevant.

I think you are an airline employee who has lost sight of my primary complaint as a passenger. Re-read what I have.

The flight diverted. Why is ultimately irrelevant -- my basic need is to get going as soon as possible and deplaned without adverse effects. Explanation and communication would be a mandatory part of customer service, but appears to be lacking. As a passenger, I am in no position to negotiate weather or air traffic control. All I want is for you guys to give me the full story, accommodate my comfort as much as possible, and for god sake, don't let me sit on the tarmac for more than an hour. Figure something out. If you won't, I have no qualms asking somebody to force you to figure it out, be it a government, industry organization, or consumer watchdog.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 27):
Second or third? Uh, look at it this way: if customers on an inbound international were allowed to deplane somehow, without customs, there woldn't be a story here. So methinks you don't understand the relevance of this too well.

I understand as well as any regular traveler and for you to assume otherwise is assinine. As selfish as this sounds, I'm paying for safety, reasonable and basic comfort, and delivery to my destination in a reasonable time. If I'm flying international, I already accept the immigration and security screening. That is not the problem discussed here. You and your airline needs to figure out what to do with any passenger, international or not, in the event of unusual delays, particularly when I'm trapped on the plane on the ground.

Why do you seem to be offended by critique about customer service and treatment? Can you not see that there is a problem? I'm a passenger. I'm one of many saying that there is a problem.

-Rampart
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 30):
I think you are an airline employee who has lost sight of my primary complaint as a passenger. Re-read what I have.

The flight diverted. Why is ultimately irrelevant -- my basic need is to get going as soon as possible and deplaned without adverse effects. Explanation and communication would be a mandatory part of customer service, but appears to be lacking. As a passenger, I am in no position to negotiate weather or air traffic control. All I want is for you guys to give me the full story, accommodate my comfort as much as possible, and for god sake, don't let me sit on the tarmac for more than an hour. Figure something out. If you won't, I have no qualms asking somebody to force you to figure it out, be it a government, industry organization, or consumer watchdog.

Your qualms should again be with the government, they, like explained in several other threads this past week, have rules abound on inbound arrivals and diversions (some that defy logic even), that prevent the simple ease of bringing a catering truck or getting fuel or cleaning out the lavs. This especially is for international flights, which is what all this outrage of late is over, after the LAX debacle. International flights have ports of entry and must go through those ports, not only that but the A/C must be treated as foreign, until proper customs work is done, and that has to be done at the airport the A/C was originally scheduled to land at, exceptions are extremely rare (extreme medical emergency with diversion) and still are discouraged as it's lots of extra paperwork and hassles on both sides. That has zero to do with airlines. Sitting on the tarmac also can be out of the airline's hands, for one lightening grounds all personnel on and around the ramp preventing pretty much anything from getting done, that isn't an airline issue. Gates can be full, which is out of the airlines hands as well as a buildup for gates is never intentionally scheduled, but rather a result of an ATC delay or weather delay, things out of airlines hands once again (except MX delays). Lastly even on domestic flights the FAA (not an airline last I checked) mandates no carts pass through the aisles while taxing or sitting on active taxiway or runway making service that you desire very near impossible to complete, not to mention A/C are filled with only so much food and water.


Add up a simple common scenario, A/C at DFW stuck on active taxiway for 3-4 hours with lightening, extremely common at many airports, and is entirely out of the airline's hands. Of coarse exceptions may happen but rarely if ever.

People seem to really forget that while they sit in A/C, they are not only getting frustrated, but the airlines are as well, those A/C cost $$$$ to run, and to have them sit, and on top of that idling for hours with full staff and fuel isn't cost prohibitive. Schedules are there (and tight) for a reason, to maximize A/C up time. To have delays costs everyone money and time, not just some selfish PAX who thinks that when on a plane the airline is on their dollar and time.......

[Edited 2007-08-21 06:15:06]

[Edited 2007-08-21 06:17:19]
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:54 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 14):
The airline industry in the US is absolute shit.

Boom. There you have it folks.

Thats what I've been telling people for the past year. Shambles even - it's unorganized chaos. That phrase may sound redundant...but I think it fits what goes on in our beloved industry.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15254
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Their answer? "There outta be a law". That's it. And a bunch of complaints about lobbyists, which I share in general-but no answers, just negative ranting.

Did Maureen Dowd write this  Silly?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
rampart
Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:58 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:29 pm

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 31):

Good points. I appreciate that detailed and well informed reply, Galapagapop. More than some, you took time to understand a position and offer a retort without negativity.

Despite the regulatory needs, passenger comfort and safety is going to demand some sort of change or accommodation eventually. I would agree that blame can be divided among many -- FAA, airports, airlines, and passengers themselves. However, from a passenger's point of view, airlines are the focus of the complaints. I think it would be in the airlines' best interest to initiate some discussion as to how to effectively deal with these problems, regardless of their causes, as the problems seem only to be increasing. Unfairly or not, they take the brunt of the hassle.

-Rampart
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 34):
Good points. I appreciate that detailed and well informed reply, Galapagapop. More than some, you took time to understand a position and offer a retort without negativity.

Despite the regulatory needs, passenger comfort and safety is going to demand some sort of change or accommodation eventually. I would agree that blame can be divided among many -- FAA, airports, airlines, and passengers themselves. However, from a passenger's point of view, airlines are the focus of the complaints. I think it would be in the airlines' best interest to initiate some discussion as to how to effectively deal with these problems, regardless of their causes, as the problems seem only to be increasing. Unfairly or not, they take the brunt of the hassle.

-Rampart

airlines have mentioned the ATC system and the ridiculous circumstances that they sometimes must operate in, the problem is the FAA and the government have not said a single lick about why this has to happen and what can be done. Only response as of late is from the LAX incident, but other than that the government and the FAA haven't stood up to fix this or even share the blame, and it's hard to redirect flak as it's Airlines flying the PAX, not the FAA. I can certainly understand to a PAX why ATC delay means nothing more than something airline related, when really it's the government. Although it should be noted, airlines are heavily lobbying to get this new ATC bill passed and get some money moved around, but it's still a hodgepodge of who foots the bill, where priorities system wide lye, and the pandemic issue of the lack of room for new infrastructure that plagues most US airports. ATC is merely a start, along with some of the FAA's rules, but the battle will be one of how far airports, and infrastructure should expand before entirely new ones are needed.

Cheers!
 
coza777
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2006 2:29 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:48 pm

I disagree with certain posts stating that newspapers need not come up with solutions. The solutions that they suggest are many times clear and understandable (and supported by experts) as opposed to the muddled pork-filled legislation coming out of Congress these days. They are the only way we can measure how Congress is doing.

In this case, I feel that USA Today provides some solutions that require much further study (ex. how long airlines should be allowed to keep passengers on the tarmac). No one sensible would be opposed to passenger-friendly rules. However, it is disappointing and sloppy that the article made no mention of the one single rule that most hurts domestic passengers - LACK OF FOREIGN COMPETITION. Competition is the best way to raise service standards. US carriers have no real fear of takeover or liquidation (thanks to Congress). They have less than stellar service because they are essentially allowed to. Change those archaic laws and promote more transparent pricing in airport fees, and my gut tells me that situations like this will be less common.
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:49 pm

And where's the funding for the infrastructure going to come? Right now AOPA, NBAA and others are fighting the airline lobby in Congress over the user fee issue. The airlines, like the railroads before them, get away with what they do because they have no effective competition. Back in the bad old days, it took the Muckrackers to arouse the fear of the traveling public to ger railroads to adopt new safety technology. Can you imagine today's US airline industry killing more than 1500 employees and passengers annually? That's what the railroads did-depending on the source you use, in the 1870s there were anywhere from one to three fatal accidents on the railroad each day.

I don't expect New York Times quality journalism from a paper like USA Today but they are only the latest voice to protest the abuse of customers at the hands of the oligopoly that is the US air transport industry. Perhaps this is one area where deregulation has been abused by the oligopoly that it was originally intended to aid.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
stlgph
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:33 pm

it seems the word opinion was missed from the top of the page.

opinion and commentary is different from journalistic stance.

seems it was missed. by every.single.one.of.you.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
flyabr
Posts: 753
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 11:42 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:30 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 15):
Again, the ATC system is a minuscule factor, if any, in most of the delays. ATC is no factor at all in cancellations. ATC cannot cancel a flight. Only the carrier can cancel a flight, and they do it for their convenience and logistics further down line.
I am against more government interference in the industry. More government rules and laws will just further bog down already failing businesses. Passengers need to quit taking the crap quietly. I don't mean mutiny on the airplane, don't crap on the FAs, but once out of the plane start the bitching. Complain right away to the airline reps at the destination. Write the company. And if your are stuck on the tarmac, whip out your mobile phone and start calling the TV stations.

check out this article and see what you think:

http://aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm
 
aajfksjubklyn
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:18 pm

The article is like putting more whip cream on an already decadent dessert. USA Today's quality is in line with ATC/Airlines. They are both junk and filler. People buy it though. So thats what counts. People still buy airline tickets..reagrdless of the quality. Its called business-selling to make a profit, give them something along the lines of what appears to be good. Same as the airlines.

Airlines waited till it got so bad to really make a push to change an ATC system they knew about for years. You think airlines weren't aware of the conditions back in the 80's, early 90's. Here we are now 100 new low-fare based airlines, with the same ATC system from the 70's.

You could have the most bueautiful elevator in a building, but if the rails it guides along dont work, then you dont really have much.
 
ade99
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:05 pm

I think the bottom line with the article is CO messed up on this one. There are numerous diversions every day in the US and around the world and airlines manage it some well and some appallingly. Better communication and refreshing the pax normally help manage delays. The problem is that there seems to be more of these poorly handled incidents lately and why should pax be made to suffer when good old fashion customer communication would go a long way. Anything an airline does to ensure pax comfort even during delays will ultimately reflect back well on an airline as the traveller rebooks and more of the money comes back to an airline. I know of several times when delays have occured but credit is given to good customer service and people come back to them.
 
Elite
Posts: 2296
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:31 pm

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Ade99 (Reply 41):
I think the bottom line with the article is CO messed up on this one.

Correct. The article exaggerated this incident, but that is what they are getting to. The attack dog and the criminal like treatment is pretty unacceptable. Probably they feared a riot because of the "clapping/slapping in unison".
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 15):
ATC? Huh? Again, how is it ATCs fault when 120+ arrivals are scheduled into a field that can accept 60+? Please, explain this to me.
How is it ATC's fault when there are not enough gates? They don't control gates.
Outdated, or at least behind I'll give you. Overcrowded? Rarely. When weather takes away airspace the planes have to squeeze into less space. When the carriers have over scheduled an airport, airplanes have to hold, thus squeezing more airspace.



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 15):
The ATC system? That one is getting old as well. When the carriers schedule 129 flights into a time period where the airport can accept 65, that is not ATC.



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 14):
While no mention about ATC was made in the article, does ATC force the airlines to fly 100 flights into an airport that can only handle 90?

Boy, you sound like me on a few other threads  Smile

This is the #1 problem... way above an 'antiquated ATC system'. It's odd, that whenever you hear folks mention the old ATC system, and how it needs updating, they never mention how updating it will decrease the delays. Actually, it may well have the opposite effect ... we now push 100 aircraft into that airport that only handle 90 (or 75), and wait ... update the ATC system and do nothing else, and we can push 120 that way ... ah, but we can still only handle a few more landings, say 95!

The only technology change that will have an impact, is avionics, radar etc., that enables separation to be minimized, and the difference between visual and IMC/ILS approaches to be less. Otherwise, we simply cannot have airlines scheduling to maximum VMC arrival rates, and expect anything but huge delays when a cloud appears on the approach path.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:41 pm

While I won’t even address what I view as some quite serious lapses in basic journalistic quality apparent in the USAToday Op-Ed of August 20, 2007, “Our view on airline passenger rights…”

I will keep this short and simple: people in this country get what they pay for, and that includes air travelers and, for that matter, elected officials. When we live in an environment where bureaucrats in Washington continue to hog our hard-earned (and mercilessly-taken) tax money to fund bridges to nowhere in Alaska, and Montana Sheep Institutes, what do we expect to get from our antiquated, outdated, and dangerously overtaxed national air traffic control system?

The media, quick to jump on a story they think will sell, are all too happy to point the blame at the obvious targets: the airlines themselves. And, as usual, government officials are not-so-quick to correct them because, again, as usual, the government officials are the ones who caused this problem in the first place!

No doubt, airlines have made stupid decisions in the last few months, and stranded people needlessly in some instances of late—while faced with the most challenging operating environment in recent history, including a string of some of the most consistently terrible weather since the 2000 ‘Summer from Hell’ (if this term is unfamiliar to you, just ask any United Airlines frequent flyer). However, that being said, the airlines are not the root cause of this very serious problem that threatens to cripple an industry so central to the vibrancy of our economy: travel. Indeed, while it may be hard for some to accept, airlines are just as much victims in this as the passengers daily left sitting on runways at some of America’s most overcrowded airports.

Does anyone, including the senators and congressman falling all over themselves to bloviate in front of the cameras about the travel delays problem, honestly think that this is what airlines want? Does anyone truly think that airlines like delaying thousands of their paying (and often times frequently flying) customers on a regular basis? Would any of these bureaucrats (who often have trouble balancing America’s checkbook) honestly entertain the idea that airlines enjoy spending billions each year in additional jet fuel and overtime for already-overworked pilots and flight attendants because flights are so often delayed?

Of course they don’t.

This problem has one cause and one cause only: the United States government. Our air traffic control system is so old, and so antiquated—still largely depending on decades-old technology—that it no longer merely threatens just the economic viability of one of America’s largest industries, and the U.S. economy itself, but also increasingly poses a serious threat to American air travelers’ safety, as the near-daily occurrence of so-called “runway incursions” proves quite conclusively.

Something must be done, and must be done fast, before something truly horrible happens—and I don’t mean another flight getting delayed for eight hours. But the bureaucrats (remember them, the ones who have for the last 30 years refused to fund and modernize the system?) have a predictable solution: let’s tax, fine, and punish the airlines into submission! Quite typical of government solutions, the government proposes to fix (read: cover up) its horrific bungling by—what else—shifting the blame! And, while they’re at it, they’ll take a little of your and my money, too, because we all know they don’t have enough already.

As just about any airline gate agent in the United States would tell you, the way to truly fix this problem—and not put a band-aid on this ever-growing gunshot wound—is not to place even further financial burden on the airlines. (About one quarter of your ticket already goes to pay their tax bills—higher than on liquor or cigarettes—but that’s another story.) The solution is to, once and for all, demand some accountability and results from the FAA and modernize our air traffic control system. Just keep firing each and every FAA Administration who doesn’t get the job done. Period.
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 44):
This problem has one cause and one cause only: the United States government. Our air traffic control system is so old, and so antiquated—still largely depending on decades-old technology



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 43):

It's odd, that whenever you hear folks mention the old ATC system, and how it needs updating, they never mention how updating it will decrease the delays.

Case in point  Wink

I don't disagree that the ATC system is desperately in need of modernizing. But, it won't solve many of the current issues discussed here.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1561
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting FlyABR (Reply 39):
check out this article and see what you think:

It is an interesting article you've linked. When the airlines started adding all of these new RJs to service the growing markets, why didn't they invest in runways and gates to service them? Again, it's NOT ATC. ATC is the favored whipping boy right now. If they will build the runways to accept the volume of traffic, ATC will get them there. If they want to continue flying a volume of traffic that exceeds parking spots and available runways, then ATC will keep lining them up one behind the other for their turn at what is available. They, (ATA, the carriers, media, Boyd, whoever) like to call that ATC delays. Call it what it is, infrastructure delays. That problem has to be solved by the carriers and airport authorities.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 43):
The only technology change that will have an impact, is avionics, radar etc., that enables separation to be minimized, and the difference between visual and IMC/ILS approaches to be less. Otherwise, we simply cannot have airlines scheduling to maximum VMC arrival rates, and expect anything but huge delays when a cloud appears on the approach path.

Good reply. A lot of organizations are against reducing the separation.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 46):
Good reply. A lot of organizations are against reducing the separation.

I don't disagree either. I think separation standards will change, but not enough to make an impact with this problem. Then unfortunately there are limited solutions of course ... one being that you do not allow schedules to maximum rates. You schedule somewhere between ILS rates and VMC rates. Sure, on the sunny days you are not utilizing the airport 100% ... but you'll have far fewer delays on average. You cannot have fewer delays without sacrificing frequency... at least into the congested airports.



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Rampart (Reply 30):
You and your airline needs to figure out what to do with any passenger, international or not, in the event of unusual delays, particularly when I'm trapped on the plane on the ground.

International flights: the doors cannot be opened unless U.S. Customs is there. Goverment regulation, not airline. The airline can't do anything in that situation-not even open a rear door to load food. That's a fact. Under current LAW, we cannot do much of anything.

[Edited 2007-08-21 16:22:01]
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1561
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: USAToday's Irresponsible Piece On Airlines

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 47):
without sacrificing frequency

Frequency is what ATA and some other groups claim the customer wants. I see the problem being that the airlines didn't ensure they had the goods to deliver that frequency. Yes, they bought the RJs, and they didn't buy the gates and runways. This is not the fault of government ATC. Yes ATC needs improvement, and those improvements will not cure the concrete (runway) shortage.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.