gopal
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Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:53 pm

I flew on a UA 777 from London to ORD last sunday. The chief purser announced that the name of the captain and two first officers. Is this common ? I thought that 777 had a flight crew of 2. Could it be that the "second" first officer non-revving and they announced his name just in case his advice would be needed ?

BTW, It was a very pleasant flight. I was able to experience the signature 777 interior for the first time. The overhead bins have been uniquely designed to provide more cabin space. However, I found that latches of the bins in the closed position to be a bit high. A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins. Was this a concious design decision on the part of Boeing ? Any insights would be appreciated.
 
airtran737
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:56 pm

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
I flew on a UA 777 from London to ORD last sunday. The chief purser announced that the name of the captain and two first officers. Is this common ? I thought that 777 had a flight crew of 2. Could it be that the "second" first officer non-revving and they announced his name just in case his advice would be needed ?

Any flight over 8 hours requires a third pilot. This situation is very common. Glad you had a good flight.
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Acey
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:56 pm

Beat me to it. I had the pleasure of flying YYZ-NRT and speaking with all three pilots at its conclusion. They explained the policy and the time at which each pilot took a rest. Cool stuff.

[Edited 2007-08-21 07:58:15]
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tdscanuck
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins. Was this a concious design decision on the part of Boeing ?

It was certainly conscious in the sense that Boeing knew how tall a person would have to be to open the latch. It's not something they just discovered after they built the plane.

I would assume they did a trade study on headroom/passenger comfort vs. bin height and decided that having it be a little tall was an acceptable trade for the increased space.

Tom.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:31 pm

International Relief Officer (IRO) is the common term for the 3rd and even at times 4th flight deck crew members.
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UAL777UK
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:38 pm

The resting officer on a 777 will be having a snooze in his F Suite, 3A whilst not in the cockpit

Only on a couple of occasions whilst flying F on UA has that pilot ever really stopped to have a chat.

I am flying to ORD on the 8th September in F on UA.
 
a380us
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:59 pm

and i just flew israir on a 767-300ER snd there were 4 flight crew adn i think thats because a flight for over 12 needs 4 people
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patroni
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:11 pm

The crew duty time regulations differ from country to country, there is no universally applicable rule. In addition, the requirements vary depending on the time of departure. A flight into the night can require more flight crew members than a daytime flight of the same length due to increased effect of fatigue at night.

And - to make it even more complicated - the collective work agreements between crews and individual airlines may foresee further limitations.
 
musapapaya
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:25 pm

I was on a LH MUC-HKG (A340-300) flight and there were 3 crew members flying the plane, i bet if they fly to HKG from a bit further like LHR they would need 4 crews as the flight is almost 12 hours? I think Zeke or other BA guys can answer this  Wink
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Norcal773
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting A380US (Reply 6):
and i just flew israir

You just flew who??

Interesting part is, I flew SQ SFO-ICN-SIN and the same 'captain' who made the announceent before we left SFO was the same one who did when we left ICN for SIN. The rest of he crew got off at ICN but he remained and I couldn't figure out why.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
Interesting part is, I flew SQ SFO-ICN-SIN and the same 'captain' who made the announceent before we left SFO was the same one who did when we left ICN for SIN. The rest of he crew got off at ICN but he remained and I couldn't figure out why

Impossible!!!!
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Boston92
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:21 am

One quick question. Does the same person who (per se) "took-off" the aircraft also "land" the aircraft if the flight is over 8 hours long.

Does UA1 have a third pilot?
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Max Q
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:56 am

Usually, yes the flying pilot will fly the whole leg (apart from when he is taking his break of course)

So that includes the take off and landing.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins.

But they can open and close the side bins, so they can stow their belongings. Alternatively, if those bins are filled, they can ask for assistance.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
a380us
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 11):
One quick question. Does the same person who (per se) "took-off" the aircraft also "land" the aircraft if the flight is over 8 hours long.

on lets sya a flight of 12 hours the pilot and 2 copilots would take off and one copilot would leave after take off and the other 2 would saty for 2-3 hours then switch with other copilot and pilot and they would fly towards the end of the fligh twhere theyd switch again(i think)
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tozairport
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 11):
One quick question. Does the same person who (per se) "took-off" the aircraft also "land" the aircraft if the flight is over 8 hours long.

Sure. The typical scenario goes something like this... Every crew member is on the flight deck for the first 30 and the last 45 minutes of the flight. The remaining time is either divided up by 2 (over 12 hours with 4 pilots) or 3 (over 8 but less than 12 hours with 3 pilots). The pilots spend their allotted time on break but the "flying" pilots perform both the takeoff and landing. The "relief pilots" are there to manage the aircraft while the flying pilots are on break. At UA, the co-pilots are fully qualified as flying pilots and relief pilots, so the intermix is seamless. For example, this month I have one "flying" SFO-ICN trip, one "relief pilot" SFO-NRT trip, and one "relief pilot" SFO-KIX-HNL-KIX-SFO trip. Hope that helps.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
positiverate
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
You just flew who??

http://www.israirairlines.com/
 
Tom12
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:02 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
Impossible!!!!

Care to elaborate
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ua76heavy
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting Patroni (Reply 7):
The crew duty time regulations differ from country to country, there is no universally applicable rule. In addition, the requirements vary depending on the time of departure. A flight into the night can require more flight crew members than a daytime flight of the same length due to increased effect of fatigue at night.

Back in the summer of 1999, I flew a MU MD-11 from LAX to PVG (with a 45 minute technical stop in ANC). IIRC they did it with only 2 pilots. We left LAX around 13:00 and arrived in PVG around 19:00, all daylight flying. Compared to the American airlines that use senior pilots on the international Pacific flights, these guys looked like they were in their late 20's, like right out of the air force (and flew out of ANC like they were, too!).
 
ADXMatt
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
The resting officer on a 777 will be having a snooze in his F Suite, 3A whilst not in the cockpit

On a CO B777 there are 2 pilot bunks located behind the flight deck and before the galley.

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 9):
Interesting part is, I flew SQ SFO-ICN-SIN and the same 'captain' who made the announceent before we left SFO was the same one who did when we left ICN for SIN. The rest of he crew got off at ICN but he remained and I couldn't figure out why

Couldn't be the same capt. on both legs if it was a connection with less then 8 hours connecting time.
The time on SQ for that routing is 12h30m from SFO-ICN and 6h 15min = 18h45min
19h 45m with the connecting time plus a 75 min checkin/checkout 21hrs.

His voice must have been similar sounding but not the same guy unless he was off-duty. If he was off duty he wouldn't be making announcements.
 
tozairport
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 19):

On a CO B777 there are 2 pilot bunks located behind the flight deck and before the galley.

Some of UA's 777's are like this too (10, I believe). The rest use either one or two F seats with a curtain that pulls around it to reduce noise. With the new F and C class on UA, the bunk room will have one F seat in it and there will be one F seat with a curtain reserved for the pilots on flights over 12 hours. A pretty good solution since the overhead rest facilities are not available for retrofit from Boeing anymore.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
FL370
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:53 am

ya any flight that is longer than 8 hours with have atleast 3crew memebers in the copit. back in december i flew sfo-hkg-sgn with 2pilots, and 2 first officers. its common to see that. nothing to worry about.


fl370
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 17):
Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
Impossible!!!!

Care to elaborate

There isn't much to elaborate. Under the ALPS-S contract, and the CAAS rules, the same Captain couldn't have operated both segments in the same FDP. He would have to have gotten off in ICN to get crew rest then continue on after his rest.
Fly fast, live slow
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 5):
The resting officer on a 777 will be having a snooze in his F Suite, 3A whilst not in the cockpit

Would it be an idea to put a premium rest seat in the crew rest area (my understanding being that the 777, especially, has a lot of crew rest space available above the cabin), so they could sell that seat? That's a lot of revenue to lose on every flight, considering the little things airlines look for to save a few pennies here and there in flight.

Is this a union issue?

(edited for spelling)

[Edited 2007-08-22 06:36:50]
I come in peace
 
tozairport
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:33 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 23):
Would it be an idea to put a premium rest seat in the crew rest area (my understanding being the the 777, especially, has a lot of crew rest space available above the cabin), so they could sell that seat? That's a lot of revenue to lose on every flight, considering the little things airlines look for to save a few pennies here and there in flight.

Not a union issue. At least at UA, we had in our contract that they would begin installing the overhead bunks at the "D" checks, but as I understand Boeing is no longer offering the retrofit kit, so we are stuck with the F seat or the small bunk room. I agree with you that it would make sense not to put a crew member in a revenue seat, but UA management does not see it this way. Personally, I would very much prefer the overhead bunk. The F seat is very comfortable, but the noise from the cabin is really not blocked by the curtain which makes good rest difficult.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
Acey
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 11):
Does UA1 have a third pilot?

UA 1, the westbound leg, obviously would because it's blocked at 8 hours and 55 minutes, but UA 2, the eastbound leg, is blocked at 7 hours and 58 minutes. I'd imagine they'd have a third pilot, though it wouldn't be legally required (and perhaps that's the reason it's blocked at 7:58)...but you'd have to ask someone in the know.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
LHR777
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
BTW, It was a very pleasant flight. I was able to experience the signature 777 interior for the first time. The overhead bins have been uniquely designed to provide more cabin space.

Features you'll find on every 777 - not just the one on which you flew!
 
rfields5421
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:04 pm

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins. Was this a concious design decision on the part of Boeing ?

Since people of a height less than 5'5" have different arm lengths and different body lengths - that probably did not play into any ergonomic design decision.

More likely it was a decision based on the desired internal size of the bins, the cabin cross section at that point, and the factors of providing head room for passengers in seats under the bins.

In general the center overhead bins are several inches higher than the side bins on widebody aircraft.
 
Norcal773
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 19):
His voice must have been similar sounding but not the same guy unless he was off-duty. If he was off duty he wouldn't be making announcements.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 22):
There isn't much to elaborate. Under the ALPS-S contract, and the CAAS rules, the same Captain couldn't have operated both segments in the same FDP. He would have to have gotten off in ICN to get crew rest then continue on after his rest.

Well, that's what I thought but I do remember the guy's weird name and the fact that he said 'as I told you when we left San Francisco......' at some point during the announcement. Maybe the Champagne was doing tricks on me but I do remember this very well. He also could have been the captain sitting next to me in street clothes for about 7-8 hours of the SFO-ICN leg but who knows.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 28):
He also could have been the captain sitting next to me in street clothes for about 7-8 hours of the SFO-ICN leg but who knows.

I can guarantee you, the same Captain did not fly both legs. It wasn't legal and could/would never be done!
Fly fast, live slow
 
Norcal773
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 29):
I can guarantee you, the same Captain did not fly both legs. It wasn't legal and could/would never be done!

Ok. Like I said, I thought so but I guess it was a coincidence.

On another note, I think of 'PhilSquares' whenever I see the captain in SQ's safety video.  biggrin 
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
Vrille
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
The chief purser announced that the name of the captain and two first officers. Is this common ? I thought that 777 had a flight crew of 2. Could it be that the "second" first officer non-revving and they announced his name just in case his advice would be needed ?

I read a lot about rest and duty limitations, but a third flight crew member can also implicate that one of them is there for route instruction purposes. Or is it not common to have route instructions at UA on the T7 at this destination?
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Vrille (Reply 31):
Or is it not common to have route instructions at UA on the T7 at this destination?

The third pilot in this case was certainly the relief pilot. It is possible that the third crew member could be a standards captain giving a route check, but they typically do not travel in uniform. If there is an initial checkout of a crew member going on, then the line check airman (specially trained Captain) would act as a member of the crew.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Gopal (Thread starter):
A person with a height of less than 5'5'' would not be able to open and close the center bins. Was this a concious design decision on the part of Boeing ? Any insights would be appreciated.

That is a concern with the design on the 777. On the 787 the bins will have a new handle mechanism that is easier to use. You'll probably see that technology infiltrate the rest of the fleet.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
positiverate
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 19):
On a CO B777 there are 2 pilot bunks located behind the flight deck and before the galley.

Interesting. At DL they are located above the first class cabin, and accessed via a ladder.
 
sstsomeday
Posts: 821
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 34):
Interesting. At DL they (pilot bunks) are located above the first class cabin, and accessed via a ladder.

It seems to me that this enhancement added to the UA 777s (or any other airline that reserves a 1st class seat for pilot rest) would quickly pay for itself, with first class seats going for $10,000 a pop on some routes. That's a tremendous amount of revenue, over time.

I wonder why UA management elects not to make this modification? There must be other companies besides Boeing who would install this modification. Interesting.

The only thing I can think of is that 1st class is probably never full only with passengers who have paid the first class fare. There are probably always a high percentage of upgrades. So perhaps United considers that LAST seat in 1st class to most likely be an upgrade seat anyway, so they don't lose revenue by not having it available?
I come in peace
 
Norcal773
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 35):

Most Asian carriers I've flown on to and from the US use F or J class seats as a crew rest. These include SQ and OZ. I doubt any airline fully sells put their J or F class seats anyways so now sure if it's a problem as far as losing revenue.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
apodino
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:35 pm

Hey Tozairport. I notice you are a UA 777 pilot who flies to asia a bit. I am a dispatcher for a regional airline that has done much research about international operations, particularly to Asia and Europe. I have an idea of how everything pretty much works on these routes but was curious how it is really done at the airlines. Would you be able to contact me offline?

While we are on the topic of relief pilots, I was talking wtih an AA 767 pilot in LGA the other day. (No AA doesn't fly them in there, this was a JFK based pilot commuting home) He was telling me that on a few 777 routes out of JFK (Noteable LHR), the flights are short enough where they don't need a relief pilot, but since the 767 has a slower cruising speed, these planes do need a relief pilot. Are there any other routes on US carriers overseas that don't require one? I would think AA's BOS-LHR route would not, and neither would CDG. Probably EWR-SNN or EWR-LGW on CO. And I would think PHL-SNN on USAirways. Am I missing something?
 
tozairport
Posts: 463
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:01 am

RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:27 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 37):
Would you be able to contact me offline?

send me a PM and I'll be happy to discuss anything with you....
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 36):
Most Asian carriers I've flown on to and from the US use F or J class seats as a crew rest. These include SQ and OZ. I doubt any airline fully sells put their J or F class seats anyways so now sure if it's a problem as far as losing revenue

As far as SQ goes, the J seats on the 744 are not the primary crew rest facility. The bunks are in the upper deck but there are 2 seats blocked in J for the off duty crew. That way they can take their meal and unwind if need be before going to the bunk. That way if one pilot wants to go right to sleep the other pilot won't disturb them.


As far as fully selling the J/F inventory, I can assure you it does happen on numerous occassions. If I had a dollar for every station manager that has asked me to give up one or both seats I could retire!
Fly fast, live slow
 
ktachiya
Posts: 1503
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:32 pm

Somebody brought up the UA pilot seating in the F seat.

I witnessed something very interesting all the time on JAL flights between YVR-NRT. This flight was unique in that in order to flight NRT-YVR, the plane only needed two crew (the flight time was under 8 hours). However, when returning to NRT from YVR, it would have a head-wind and inevitably, the flight time was always 9-10 hours. So on the NRT-YVR sector, there would be a relief captain to fly tommorow's flight. I sat next to one such captain one time on C class and he told me the procedures. And, he was drinking alchohol because he was not on duty for the NRT-YVR sector and rule says that the crew could not drink 12 hours up to right before the flight. Of course after JL18 landed in NRT, the crew had about 26 hours until they had to fly back on JL 17.

What was interesting is that, although the senior captain was not on duty, he was wearing his uniform and his ID tag throughout the flight. Is this some procedure or was it completely his discretion?
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
Norcal773
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Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:19 pm

RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 39):
As far as fully selling the J/F inventory, I can assure you it does happen on numerous occassions. If I had a dollar for every station manager that has asked me to give up one or both seats I could retire!

Does the captain decide whether to give up the seat?

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 40):
What was interesting is that, although the senior captain was not on duty, he was wearing his uniform and his ID tag throughout the flight.



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 40):
And, he was drinking alchohol

Hmmm... A uniformed pilot drinking shots of tequila, not something many people would be comfortable seeing coz they don't know the full story so that's kinda odd.
If you're going through hell, keep going
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 41):
Does the captain decide whether to give up the seat?

A good Captain will consult the other crewmembers and then make the decision based on their input. It's a double edged sword, because on one hand it's lost revenue/poor customer service to overbook in J but on the other side is it's a contractual obligation the company has agreed to. You really have to look at each case individually.
Fly fast, live slow
 
ktachiya
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:54 am

RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Norcal773 (Reply 41):
A uniformed pilot drinking shots of tequila, not something many people would be comfortable seeing coz they don't know the full story so that's kinda odd

Well, he was drinking wine rather than shots, and yes I knew about the 12 hour rule so I was completely comfortable with it. And well, he was sitting on the maindeck of the B747-400 and he never went upstairs to where the cockpit door was. I was very suprised though since he was also wearing his jacket at the beginning of the flight. I saw him handing it to the crew because it was December and everyone was checking their coats in on C class.

But now that Norcal773 you mention it, I never saw any other captain with their uniform on, on any other NRT-YVR segment.

Perhaps the pilot forgot to bring unload that day's clothes from his luggage?
Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
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RE: Flight Crew Of 3 On A UA 777

Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:01 am

All of AA's B777's have crew bunks for both Flight Deck Crew (behind cockpit door A/C Left) and Inflight Crew(center section MD level adjacent to 3L/R. The old Pacific config. pilot seats are 4DG. (Last row F/C center). The now standard configuration is the original Atlantic Config. Pilot seats on the Atlantic Config. is 1A.

Maybe and APA pilot can correct me on this. Once all the B777's are re-configured to Flagship Suites will the FB and FC get two seats and two bunks?

AASTEW