Revo
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Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:35 pm

British Airways directors are understood to have given the green light for the launch of the airline’s first transatlantic flights from Europe next summer in a move that is expected to start a tit-for-tat battle with its Continental rivals.
BA are expected to offer flights from Brussels, Madrid and Paris to New York JFK, although the final network is yet to be decided. It is thought the services will start in May.
The proposed flights were rumoured to be business-class only, but it has now emerged that they will have at least two classes, business and either an economy or premium-economy cabin.
In the past BA has been prevented from operating from other European countries by restrictive treaties governing air services, but last year Europe and America signed an “open skies” deal, removing most of the restrictions on where airlines from the two trading blocs could fly. The new agreement comes into force next April. Although US airlines will be able to operate with total freedom in Europe, the one-sided treaty does not allow European airlines to take on the US domestic market.
European airlines could choose to follow BA’s lead and start flights direct from Heathrow to the US, or, as some industry insiders believe more likely, donate sought after landing slots at the London airport to their American partner airlines to allow them to compete head-on with BA. Air France and KLM have a marketing alliance with US airlines Northwest and Delta, neither of which currently operate flights from Heathrow.
BA also faces stiff competition from a new breed of low-cost all-business-class airlines. American carriers Eos and MaxJet fly from Stansted to New York and other US destinations, while award winning British airline Silverjet flies from Luton to New York.

From http://news.flightmapping.com/07/08/...ntic-flights-from-europe_1435.html
 
commavia
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:40 pm

Personally, I'm actually a bit surprised they are going after three initial markets, all of which are already served by oneworld airlines. AA already flies JFK-BRU 1x daily with 767s, and JFK-CDG 2x daily with 767s, and IB already flights JFK-MAD 2x daily with A340s. I would think that perhaps BA would go for some secondary Euro-U.S. (or -JFK markets, if they insist) that are perhaps a bit smaller, but face less competition and wouldn't step on the toes of partner airlines. I'm thinking markets like FRA-JFK, AMS-JFK, MXP-JFK. All of these markets would probably do just as well, but would also probably get a lot more connections off of AA flights at JFK: I doubt AA is going to send any of its passengers onto BA's flights to BRU and CDG except the lower-yielding cheap fares.
 
BA787
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):

If BA are aiming their flights at business and premium economy passengers, I think it does make sense. I'm guessing that maybe the AA flights don't cover the full market and BA could probably provide a higher quality of service on the routes. The demand must be quite high at both BRU and CDG. As for MAD, it is a oneworld base so BA can offer plenty of connections from the airport and serve the market where IB undercuts service wise. BA can be the luxury option if you like, while IB can concentrate on economy passengers. I'd imagine the way BA has decided this is by looking at the most passengers which transit through LHR on BA into JFK from any one airport and has decided to start a direct flight

My $0.02

Good news that they are going to do it, gets them out of the sh** hole that is LHR

BA787
 
7LBAC111
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
I would think that perhaps BA would go for some secondary Euro-U.S. (or -JFK markets, if they insist) that are perhaps a bit smaller, but face less competition and wouldn't step on the toes of partner airlines

Surely it could be argued that AA's presence in LHR is stepping on the toes of BA there?

7L
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rjpieces
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting Revo (Thread starter):
Although US airlines will be able to operate with total freedom in Europe

As in total cabotage rights? So Delta could start flying CDG-AMS or MAD-FCO?

Quoting Revo (Thread starter):
European airlines could choose to follow BA’s lead and start flights direct from Heathrow to the US, or, as some industry insiders believe more likely, donate sought after landing slots at the London airport to their American partner airlines to allow them to compete head-on with BA. Air France and KLM have a marketing alliance with US airlines Northwest and Delta, neither of which currently operate flights from Heathrow.

Would they have revenue-sharing immunity like NW/KL?

Quoting BA787 (Reply 2):
BA can be the luxury option if you like, while IB can concentrate on economy passengers.

Tell that to Iberia or any airline that makes most of its money off premium passengers...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
bastew
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:06 pm

I think the whole point of BA's plans is to try and take advantage of all the opportunities it has gained from open skies - which compared to other airlines (ie gaining transatlantic rights from LHR) BA has gained little.

I think this is one opporunity BA will seize. Lufthansa and AF will no doubt be donating or selling slots to their star/sky partners to fly LHR-US so why shouldn't BA try and move in on their markets also?

I am a little suprised at the article on the opening thread (something similar also appeared in the UK Times) as the official word within BA is that no final decision has been made. It is not known whether the airline will be operated as 'BA' or 'an airline within an airline'. Routes to be flown are still being evaluated. Whether the crews will be UK or US based is also undecided.
 
B747forever
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
So Delta could start flying CDG-AMS or MAD-FCO?

If they can, it would be really cool.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
a3xx900
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:42 pm

As Commavia said, why should BA use routes that are already served by oneworld partners? Especially in MUC there is high demand for USA flights (LH has recently axed the B73W service to EWR and upgraded it to i think an A340). And LH and their partners are the only airlines flying to the US. LH serves JFK, EWR, BOS, IAD, CLT, LAX, SFO, ORD and now DEN with UA's second daily flights to ORD and IAD and US's PHL run.
DL is the only non-StarAlliance airline that keeps their daily service to ATL. BA could cooperate with airlines like NW, AA and CO by offering routes to EWR, DFW, IAH, MSP, MIA or PHX.

I always wandered why there is so little American interest in MUC, while LH keeps increasing their routes to the US. My personal guess is that AB will start regular US service from MUC and later BBI.
Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
 
commavia
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting A3xx900 (Reply 7):
I always wandered why there is so little American interest in MUC, while LH keeps increasing their routes to the US.

You just answered your own question: with Lufthansa being so heavily dominant at the airport, and operating by far the most capacity to most major U.S. markets, it is a very difficult environment for other airlines to compete in. Star partners -- United and USAirways -- no doubt do well, plus Munich also sees Delta's daily 767 to Atlanta. But for airlines with smaller presences in Central Europe, and Germany, like AA and Continental, Munich would be hard market to make profitable (perhaps outside of the May-October period).
 
oly720man
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 6):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):So Delta could start flying CDG-AMS or MAD-FCO?
If they can, it would be really cool.

But probably not a great revenue earner given how competitive the European market is. We could hark back to the days when Pan Am, United, Delta and TWA had european feeder networks through Germany.


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ikramerica
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 6):
If they can, it would be really cool.

They can't. It's total freedom to Europe, not in Europe, freedom they already had anyway...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 10):
They can't. It's total freedom to Europe, not in Europe, freedom they already had anyway...

Which begs the question: How was it a one-side agreement?

-Dave
-Dave
 
DL787932ER
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting Revo (Thread starter):
Although US airlines will be able to operate with total freedom in Europe, the one-sided treaty does not allow European airlines to take on the US domestic market.

Well, this article certainly is unbiased and objective  sarcastic 

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):

As in total cabotage rights?

No.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
So Delta could start flying CDG-AMS or MAD-FCO?

Yes. Neither of those routes has anything to do with cabotage. There is no country called "Europe".

Quoting B747forever (Reply 6):

If they can, it would be really cool.

U.S. airlines have pretty much given up their European hubs. With alliances now in place, and airlines preferring nonstop flights over tag-on or multi-stop flights, I doubt there will be much of a renaissance of US carriers flying intra-European traffic.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
A380flyer
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:38 am

I understood that all US airlines would be able to fly from the USA to (LHR for instance) then onto CDG as an example.

This is what all the European carriers are not happy about as they will not be able to fly into one destination in the USA then onto another. i.e. LHR-JFK-SFO......
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
So Delta could start flying CDG-AMS or MAD-FCO?

In reality I dont think that Delta Air Lines level of service is on par with the European airlines at least Delta Air Lines partners Air France-KLM, adding to that problem Delta would have to open a European Flight Attendant base which could be a nightmare for cost of operation. Local Flight Attendants would have to be recruited due to language issues, as can be seen it is hard enough to get a native speaking foreign language speaker in the United States due to the poor wages the airlines offer. The above routes and all others within Europe are best left to Delta Air Lines SkyTeam partners.

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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:46 am

So to be clear, what would the agreement allow:

A) US carriers to fly between different European nations carrying passengers.

B) US carriers to stop in one Euro nation, then continue to another, but without local traffic rights.

C) US carriers can fly from any US point to any Euro point, but not between nations.

If A, then I could understand why some might not like the agreement. Afterall, it IS effectively cabotage, in the sense that the agreement is attempting to treat the EU nations as one entity.

If B or C, then I fail to see the problem.

-Dave
-Dave
 
express1
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:47 am

So next April, what changes will we perhaps see at LHR,in the way of aircraft types and carriers from Euope and the USA?

dave
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ikramerica
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 15):
If A, then I could understand why some might not like the agreement. Afterall, it IS effectively cabotage, in the sense that the agreement is attempting to treat the EU nations as one entity.

The EU is not a country. The EU leadership has been attempting to redefine themselves and the USA both, and equate the relationship between France and Germany to the relationship between Texas and California, despite this just not being anywhere close to the case.

They don't argue the same case with Mexico or China and their states/provinces.

The only thing the USA really gained in this whole thing was the unrestricted right to fly to LHR. Those restrictions were already illegal under the EU laws, so the fact they were being held onto as a bargaining chip was lame. But frankly, USA carriers are not inherently "afraid" of EU carriers flying TATL flights from multiple cities. The cabotage argument was all a bunch of hot air, and unfortunately, it won't go away as BA, SRB and the UK government are still set on dismantling the USA domestic airline sovereignty.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:35 am

I cannot see how BA will make any money starting direct flights to and from the points this topic mentions, merely it would be to bully those airlines into losing ground. I don't think that BA's management is to bully any airline at the present moments in current market conditions, they want to make money in the long run. There must be some sort of strategem no doubt, however I can't see how they will choose to fly into those all ready well exploited routes by the major airlines.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 2):
As for MAD, it is a oneworld base so BA can offer plenty of connections from the airport and serve the market where IB undercuts service wise. BA can be the luxury option if you like, while IB can concentrate on economy passengers

Why IB would throw away their profit base on a market like JFK (premium pax) in favour of BA,it's not like AF/KL,they still have different ownership (unfortunately)
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bastew
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
I cannot see how BA will make any money starting direct flights to and from the points this topic mentions, merely it would be to bully those airlines into losing ground. I don't think that BA's management is to bully any airline at the present moments in current market conditions, they want to make money in the long run. There must be some sort of strategem no doubt, however I can't see how they will choose to fly into those all ready well exploited routes by the major airlines.

North america is BA's biggest market outside the UK and it used to have the most flights across the pond though im not sure this has changed with the KL/AF merger.

After the initial disappointment of the open skies deal (ie BA wanting access to the US domestic market in exchange for access to LHR) they had to get on with finding some way of using it to BA's advantage.

BA's advantage is that it has a very well known brand in the US, particularly in NYC. Perhaps more well known than most other foreign airlines. It has its own terminal at JFK also, the only foreign airline to do so. Now if normally loyal american passenger to BA when flying to LHR are using competitors when flying to other points in europe, why not try and snare them away?

The only problem I can see with the situation is that BA may in-directly poach its own passengers. We currently have 71 flights per week from LHR to JFK/EWR and 77 flights per week in the summer - as well as the daily 767 service from MAN. JFK all on 747 (except 1 daily 777), EWR all on 777. A large proportion of passengers on these flights are already in transit to other european cities (such as the ones being touted as possible 757 routes) so surely the passenger numbers on flights to LHR would decrease? I guess this may offer BA the opportunity of reducing rotations on LHR-NYC and deploying a jumbo or 777 on new routes.

A round the back way (and a quick one) of longhaul aircraft expansion?
 
hotelmode
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 20):
I guess this may offer BA the opportunity of reducing rotations on LHR-NYC and deploying a jumbo or 777 on new routes.

Exactly! BA can maintain the frequencies required by the premium pax to JFK by using say 5 daily 747's and 3 smaller aircraft with high J configs (maybe the same ones that then fly to the European hubs) Freeing up 3 747s for other work whilst not diluting the yield.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 20):
BA's advantage is that it has a very well known brand in the US, particularly in NYC. Perhaps more well known than most other foreign airlines. It has its own terminal at JFK also, the only foreign airline to do so. Now if normally loyal american passenger to BA when flying to LHR are using competitors when flying to other points in europe, why not try and snare them away?

Indeed, but I was under the impression that the major airlines that operate NYC area to Western Europe weren't making any true money, merely they were there since they are legacy airlines trying to provide a service they have been doing for decades. They were making the profit on selling the different connections at their respective hubs. Not on a JFK-LHR-JFK for example.

If BA goes into nonstop JFK-CDG for example what chances do they have to be on the same level with DL or AF? AF would then sell the segment JFK-CDG-JFK for a third of what BA would and AF will make more money since they will provide with connections in CDG and of course more frequencies. Therefore the pax won't be exclusively for CDG and thus, AF makes the money on selling to the different points in Europe or Asia for that matter.

So if BA is trying to establish is some sort of hub in JFK to have direct flights to those points would seem somewhat of a wise idea in a way based on what you have said, however it still its very risky .
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:26 am

I'm wondering if this means Iberia might drop one of their 2xdaily A340 flights in favor for 1 A340-600 flight and a British Airways flight. Of course that is depending on what aircraft will operate the British flight, if it was say a 757-200 I could see Iberia keeping both flights but if a 777-200 or 747-400 is thrown in then I could see them pulling 1 of the flights.

Although it is important to remember that JFK is among Iberia's top destinations following (in no particular order) EZE, MIA , MEX, and GRU.
No Vueling No Party
 
masseybrown
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Revo (Thread starter):
donate sought after landing slots at the London airport to their American partner

Donate? I doubt it; I sure wouldn't, although some flexible transfer arrangement with low up-front costs might work for both sides. If, say, AF offered a useful pair of LHR slots to DL, I could see them charging DL a percentage of revenues up to some cap.
 
TWFirst
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 12):
Yes. Neither of those routes has anything to do with cabotage. There is no country called "Europe".

No, but the EU is a common market, meaning from the viewpoint of commerce, anywhere within its boundaries is considered the same economic jurisdiction... that's the whole reason for the existence of the EU. Thus explaining the EU efforts over the last several years to replace individual member state aviation agreements with the US with one common EU-wide agreement, as it should be. The UK held up the process for years trying to "protect" BA @ LHR.
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B752OS
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
I cannot see how BA will make any money starting direct flights to and from the points this topic mentions, merely it would be to bully those airlines into losing ground. I don't think that BA's management is to bully any airline at the present moments in current market conditions, they want to make money in the long run. There must be some sort of strategem no doubt, however I can't see how they will choose to fly into those all ready well exploited routes by the major airlines.

BA could surely do well in certain markets on non-stop flights between Europe and The United States. Everyone is saying how JFK would be an iffy market due to the amount of airlines currently offering flights. But what if BA were to move into other, less crowded markets. BOS, MIA, DFW all come to mind as markets where BA could offer non-stop flights to other European cities besides LHR and could be a winner for them. AA has not shown much interest in expanding their European operations and add in the possible collapse of AZ and you have markets that are ripe for the taking. IF AZ is to collapse, MIA will be losing their daily MXP flight, and BOS will lose their daily MXP flight and season 5 x weekly FCO flight. Thats a big gap left open. Why would AA have a problem selling people a DEN-DFW-MAD ticket for example?
 
bobnwa
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting A380flyer (Reply 13):
I understood that all US airlines would be able to fly from the USA to (LHR for instance) then onto CDG as an example.

This is what all the European carriers are not happy about as they will not be able to fly into one destination in the USA then onto another. i.e. LHR-JFK-SFO......

Are you saying that JFK-LHR-CDG for an American carrier is the same as BA flying CDG-JFK-SFO? The first example is three different countries whereas the second example is two counties. If you are going to say that the EU should be viewed as one country by aviation, then when will the European nations give up their individual seats in the United Nations and just have one Olympic team? Also every city in the US has the same currency. Can the UK make that statement?
Either you are one country in every situation or you are not.
 
ssides
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:52 am

So, under the new rules, can AA codeshare with BA on these flights (other than LGW and LHR?)

It was my understanding that the AA/BA codeshare prohibition only affects flights to London. Is this the case?

I'd love to be able to connect seamlessly on AA/BA DFW-JFK-AMS or DFW-JFK-MAD.
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panamair
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 26):
But what if BA were to move into other, less crowded markets. BOS, MIA, DFW all come to mind as markets where BA could offer non-stop flights to other European cities

Keep in mind that BA is thinking of 757s here so MIA and DFW are probably not too feasible....

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 24):
If, say, AF offered a useful pair of LHR slots to DL, I could see them charging DL a percentage of revenues up to some cap.

LHR-U.S. flights are supposed to be part of the first phase of the proposed AF-DL joint venture where they will split revenues and costs 50-50.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 14):
In reality I dont think that Delta Air Lines level of service is on par with the European airlines at least Delta Air Lines partners Air France-KLM,

To be honest, most intra-European hops (those 1.5 - 2 hour ones) are seeing service cuts all over the place and are beginning to resemble many domestic US flights...The only "better service" component of intra-Europe business class is the presence of a meal with silverware and glasses; otherwise, seating is worse than US domestic First. KLM is even worse as their upfront product, EuropeSelect, doesn't even block the middle seat so you could be cramped in a middle seat even though you paid an unrestricted fare....
And service has also been drastically reduced in the back as well...SK and OS do all food/drink for sale (not even water is complimentary), BA, AF, AZ, etc., have also reduced their catering in Y to biscuits and crackers (the same ones found in their European lounges) as has been my experience on routes like LGW-ZRH, CDG-AMS, MXP-TXL, etc.
 
B747forever
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 20):
guess this may offer BA the opportunity of reducing rotations on LHR-NYC and deploying a jumbo or 777 on new routes.

A round the back way (and a quick one) of longhaul aircraft expansion?

And for example BA could expand in south America and offer more flights to the far east.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
r2rho
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:17 am

MAD-JFK seems to be pretty much certain according to Spanish press. But wait a minute... aren't IB and BA both in Oneworld? Don't they supposedly get along well and complement each other's routes? What does IB have to say about this - BA just walking into MAD like that? It's different if they would fly CDG-JFK for instance, thereby directly competing with AF & Skyteam. But competing with a fellow Oneworld member? I don't get it.
 
B752OS
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 29):
Quoting B752OS (Reply 26):
But what if BA were to move into other, less crowded markets. BOS, MIA, DFW all come to mind as markets where BA could offer non-stop flights to other European cities

Keep in mind that BA is thinking of 757s here so MIA and DFW are probably not too feasible....

Well if BA is planning on using 752s, BOS would be a great market for them. Flights to BRU, LIS, BCN, GLA could work.
 
panamair
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 32):
Well if BA is planning on using 752s, BOS would be a great market for them. Flights to BRU, LIS, BCN, GLA could work.

If the news reports that they are planning to configure these 752s with mostly 'premium' seats are to be believed, then some of these markets won't work - eg. BOS-GLA....
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:43 am

I reckon BA will do JFK-CDG, JFK-FRA and JFK-MAD at a minimum. I think it will be a very interesting to see what does materalise.
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 23):
I'm wondering if this means Iberia might drop one of their 2xdaily A340 flights in favor for 1 A340-600 flight and a British Airways flight.

Once again, why would IB give away to BA one of their top three money makers?

Quoting R2rho (Reply 31):
MAD-JFK seems to be pretty much certain according to Spanish press. But wait a minute... aren't IB and BA both in Oneworld? Don't they supposedly get along well and complement each other's routes? What does IB have to say about this - BA just walking into MAD like that? It's different if they would fly CDG-JFK for instance, thereby directly competing with AF & Skyteam. But competing with a fellow Oneworld member? I don't get it.

 checkmark 
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
letit
Posts: 44
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 29):
And service has also been drastically reduced in the back as well...SK and OS do all food/drink for sale (not even water is complimentary), BA, AF, AZ, etc., have also reduced their catering in Y to biscuits and crackers (the same ones found in their European lounges) as has been my experience on routes like LGW-ZRH, CDG-AMS, MXP-TXL, etc.

I thought that OS had reintroduced free food on all flights? Even when they were selling food they did free water, tea and coffee in my experience. Oh, and a chocolate.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5449
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
The EU is not a country. The EU leadership has been attempting to redefine themselves and the USA both, and equate the relationship between France and Germany to the relationship between Texas and California, despite this just not being anywhere close to the case.

I understand. But that doesn't change the fact that they are attempting to act as one body, at least when it comes to aviation. In the end, if that's how they choose to be treated, and we (the US) agree, it would seem that borders would be irrelevant.

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 25):
No, but the EU is a common market, meaning from the viewpoint of commerce, anywhere within its boundaries is considered the same economic jurisdiction... that's the whole reason for the existence of the EU. Thus explaining the EU efforts over the last several years to replace individual member state aviation agreements with the US with one common EU-wide agreement, as it should be.

Whether you think it should be or not, I understand your point.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 27):
Are you saying that JFK-LHR-CDG for an American carrier is the same as BA flying CDG-JFK-SFO? The first example is three different countries whereas the second example is two counties. If you are going to say that the EU should be viewed as one country by aviation, then when will the European nations give up their individual seats in the United Nations and just have one Olympic team? Also every city in the US has the same currency. Can the UK make that statement?
Either you are one country in every situation or you are not.

I agree, except that if we agree to their terms, then your point is moot. It is the US on the one hand and the EU on the other (in regards to aviation).

I'm open to being educated on why this is inherently bad, but on the surface, it would seem to create a more equal playing field for the nations of Europe.

-Dave
-Dave
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3632
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
Personally, I'm actually a bit surprised they are going after three initial markets,



Quoting BA787 (Reply 2):
The demand must be quite high at both BRU and CDG

BRU and CDG actually make a lot of sense in as much as both airports (CDG more than BRU, and BRU when Sabena was around more than BRU with Brussels Airlines around) see a lot of connecting traffic from passengers originating or flying to regional airports in the UK and very keen to avoid LHR.

Rumors that BA would start a mini-hub in BRU have appeared in one form of another for many years, not less when BA was considering a tie-up with Sabena before Swissair got in on the action.

Quoting BAStew (Reply 20):
The only problem I can see with the situation is that BA may in-directly poach its own passengers.

But at the same time, it is picking up passengers it lost to AF or AA to fly BHX - CDG - JFK or MAN - BRU - JFK

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
But probably not a great revenue earner given how competitive the European market is.

European airlines have received 7th and 9th freedom rights within Europe several years ago, and yet no legacy carrier has rushed to use them on a large scale, so I doubt that, even if they wanted to, US carriers would be able to compete profitably, except on a few niche routes as is the case with legacy EU carriers. The only airlines that seem to be able to benefit from these rights on a large scale are the likes of Ryanair.

Quoting BAStew (Reply 20):
It has its own terminal at JFK also

Does it ? I thought BA was "simply" the largest tenant, I didn't know it controlled the entire terminal. If this is the case, who will BA boot ? They would need to free up one or two gates at prime time in order to operate these new flights, wouldn't it ? My money is on QF and IB even though they are partners. Both the number of movement and timing of their flights would seem to have the best combination of maximum efficiency with the least disruption overall.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 27):
when will the European nations give up their individual seats in the United Nations and just have one Olympic team?

When the United Kingdom fields a single team for the World Cup. Or when Superbowl winners stop calling themselves world champions. Take your pick.

Quoting R2rho (Reply 31):
But competing with a fellow Oneworld member? I don't get it.

Maybe (pure speculation here) IB will cancel one of its flights as others have suggested and use the aircraft to open an additional route that would connect with the BA service on which IB would code-share, thereby increasing IB's revenues overall.
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
Quoting R2rho (Reply 31):
But competing with a fellow Oneworld member? I don't get it.

Maybe (pure speculation here) IB will cancel one of its flights as others have suggested and use the aircraft to open an additional route that would connect with the BA service on which IB would code-share, thereby increasing IB's revenues overall.

Freeing a single A340 doesn't give IB many options to open a new long haul.

Also doesn't make much sense for BA to codeshare on their own metal from MAD, as several posters have said first they should target non OW hubs like CDG, FRA, BRU, MXP, MUC, AMS where they would market the entire a/c under BA code.
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bastew
Posts: 741
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
Quoting BAStew (Reply 20):
It has its own terminal at JFK also

Does it ? I thought BA was "simply" the largest tenant, I didn't know it controlled the entire terminal. If this is the case, who will BA boot ? They would need to free up one or two gates at prime time in order to operate these new flights, wouldn't it ? My money is on QF and IB even though they are partners. Both the number of movement and timing of their flights would seem to have the best combination of maximum efficiency with the least disruption overall.

Yup, BA owns T7 at JFK. It rents out gates to UA, IB, QF and a few other airlines (AS??).
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3632
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 40):

Cool, thanks. AFAIK, the other carriers are AC, UA, IB, QF, NH, CX, and US. AS serves EWR, not JFK.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 39):

Just speculating about a rational explanation for BA operating ex MAD...
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has no clothes.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18971
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 12):
Quoting RJpieces (Reply 4):
So Delta could start flying CDG-AMS or MAD-FCO?

Yes. Neither of those routes has anything to do with cabotage. There is no country called "Europe".

Cabotage would be CDG-NCE or MAD-BCN and US carriers certainly don't have those rights, just like EU carriers don't have cabotage rights within the USA. They certainly wanted cabotage but it was obvious the US would never negotiate the issue so the EU accepted the best deal they could get.
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1250
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting Oly720man (Reply 9):
We could hark back to the days when Pan Am, United, Delta and TWA had european feeder networks through Germany.

A bit OT, but thanks, nice pictures, and nice reminiscence of the time when 727s ruled the skies...

I suppose sometimes Frankfurt may have looked like a provincial US airport...
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
tymnbalewne
Posts: 714
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:06 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting BAStew (Reply 40):
Yup, BA owns T7 at JFK. It rents out gates to UA, IB, QF and a few other airlines (AS??).

Actually, no..BA does not own T7. There is a lease on the terminal which expires in about 7-8 years. BA subleases space to UA and US only. All other carriers are handled by either BA (FI, QF, CX, IB, NH) or UA (AC). US leases counter space, back office space and baggage office space. They use BA gates.

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
airfrnt
Posts: 2002
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting A380flyer (Reply 13):
I understood that all US airlines would be able to fly from the USA to (LHR for instance) then onto CDG as an example.

This is what all the European carriers are not happy about as they will not be able to fly into one destination in the USA then onto another. i.e. LHR-JFK-SFO......

Give us 50 more votes in the UN GA, one more veto in the UN Security council, and double the farm aide, staff fifty more embassies and then it would be a true comparison  Wink
 
goldorak
Posts: 1362
Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:29 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting R2rho (Reply 31):
It's different if they would fly CDG-JFK for instance, thereby directly competing with AF & Skyteam. But competing with a fellow Oneworld member? I don't get it.

For me it's not different. CDG-JFK is not only operated by AF and other skyteam partners (DL, and CO to EWR) but also twice daily by AA who is in OneWorld. Would AA be happy BA launching JFK-CDG? Certainly not as I think BA will take more customers from AA than from AF, as they are in the same alliance (so, mileage benefits) and because AA has now such a miserable service.
 
BA787
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:40 pm

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:18 pm

Just had a thought, how does IB actually do on the JFK routes? If BA brought in a big enough aircraft to do the route, couldn't it mean that IB could just codeshare the route and let BA have it, while they concentrate on LatAm routes, which we all know is where IB make all their money. I don't know how well they do on the route so I'm only guessing, but I bet they could find something better. Or this could be used to increase frequency on the route if IB can't get enoguh aircraft. There must be something that caused this and IB must be ok about it, otherwise it would scupper a lot of hard work maintaining a good relationship.

BA787
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting BA787 (Reply 47):
how does IB actually do on the JFK routes?

JFK is their highest yield route together with GRU, MEX and EZE.

Quoting BA787 (Reply 47):
If BA brought in a big enough aircraft to do the route

Not sure what do you mean by "big", IB's A346 are big a/c and I guess they have more seats overall than BA's 744, the issue is the larger premium cabin BA could offer, but I think IB J product is more than enough for the spanish market.
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Green Light For BA Transatlantic Flights From Euro

Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Revo (Thread starter):
Although US airlines will be able to operate with total freedom in Europe, the one-sided treaty does not allow European airlines to take on the US domestic market.

Not 'total' freedom. 3rd/4ths to any international airport in the 27 Member States and unlimited intermediate and beyond 5ths to points in another country with full traffic rights. In simple terms the flights need to originate in or be destined to a US point.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
The only thing the USA really gained in this whole thing was the unrestricted right to fly to LHR. Those restrictions were already illegal under the EU laws, so the fact they were being held onto as a bargaining chip was lame

Not quite correct. The US side got 'open skies' to the 15 (I think) EU Member States where restrictive (or no) agreements applied - including unlimited 5ths. The Heathrow restrictions were NOT illegal nor did the European Court consider the US-UK agreement in it's ruling. That agreement dated from 1946 - prior to the UK joining the EU and as such it's terms were not contrary to EU regulation or policy. (While that may be arguable the EC chose to go after the low hanging fruit - the more recent OS agreements made by 12 EU MSs)

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
and yet no legacy carrier has rushed to use them on a large scale

Substitue the word "network" for "leagacy" and the reason for this is clear. Building new hubs at slot restricted airports isn't sustainable.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
When the United Kingdom fields a single team for the World Cup. Or when Superbowl winners stop calling themselves world champions. Take your pick.

Don't forget the World Series!