greatansett
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:38 pm

TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:59 am

Can someone please explain how TWA's international operations seemed to have fallen apart so quickly. I heard that in either 1988 or 89, TWA commanded over 50% of the Atlantic crossings. How in the space of ten years did its operations disintergrate so quickly?
Ron Paul 2012
 
timz
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:03 am

Quoting GREATANSETT (Thread starter):
I heard that in either 1988 or 89, TWA commanded over 50% of the Atlantic crossings.

Where'd you hear that?
 
greatansett
Posts: 485
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:07 am

I believe wikipedia ////////////////////

Correction 1978

[Edited 2007-08-22 01:13:07]
Ron Paul 2012
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 2):
I believe wikipedia ////////////////////

Wiki is not the most reliable source of information. (Especially now that it's come out the among others, the edits have come from the CIA). Now I might believe these numbers in the 70's when TWA and Pan Am had the Atlantic to themselves in terms of US airlines, but by the late 80's, other U.S. airlines had begun routes, so 50% seems very generous. Lot's of factors contributed to TWA's demise. An interesting read might be "That Wonderful Airline", a nostalgia publication by Airways Magazine. It does delve into a lot of the airlines past and troubles.
 
timz
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:18 am

Even in 1978 (or any other year), how could TW have more transatlantic flights than Pan Am and BA and everybody else-- combined?
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 4):
Even in 1978 (or any other year), how could TW have more transatlantic flights than Pan Am and BA and everybody else-- combined?

I was referring even further back, say early 70's when TW was at their zenith. I was stating making an assumption the question was in relation to US carriers only. You are correct, factor in international carriers, the percentages for PA and TW would both be quite a bit lower.
 
iRISH251
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:32 am

TWA may have had 50% of the scheduled traffic carried by US carriers on the Atlantic in the late 1970s as, apart from Pan Am. the only other US carriers were probably Braniff and National, each with only one or two daily flights. However you must remember that, pre-deregulation, the US supplemental carriers such as Capitol, Overseas National, TIA/Transamerica and World carried significant numbers of passengers on "affinity charters" across the Atlantic. The stretched DC-8 was their preferred equipment and airports such as Shannon and Gander were heavily used by such flights. Therefore the situation was quite different from today, when T/A charter services are largely extinct.
 
timz
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:37 am

FWIW, Air Transp World had a table in its first issue (5/64) listing the North Atlantic passenger count for IATA (?) airlines-- counting scheduled ops only I assume.

1950 PA had 22.1% of the total, TW 21.4, BOAC 11.5, everyone else < 10%

1957 PA 26.7 TW 15.9 BOAC 11.9

1963 PA 22.3 TW 14.8 BOAC 12.3
 
Cody
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:56 am

It was many factors. During the late 1970's and early 1980's, a few of TWA's Trans-Atlantic routes were cut simply due to the individual profitability of the particular route (Casablanca and Santa Maria come to mind). In the mid-80's other U.S. carriers started flying to Europe which really brought yields down. The worst cuts came after Icahn sold off LHR and the Gulf War impacted the amount of people flying to Europe. I remember reading that TWA was literally cutting 50 percent of its European flights overnight due to the war. Not too long after that, TWA lost its Fifth Freedom authorities out of CDG. By the time the late 1990's rolled around, yields had eroded even more due to Carl Ichan's Karabu agreement. Then there was the grounding of the L1011's and 747's. Neither aircraft were really replaced due to TWA's financial state. A bunch of factors that all lead to a common conclusion.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:07 pm

Well TW did operate many NYC-LON flights with 767-231ER a/c from the late 80's and mid nineties. They could have been operating 50% of those but are you sure of that figure from 78? Maybe 50% of the traffic. TW, I believe had 707 and 747 a/c operating at this time on long haul runs. They did not introduce the 767 till 85?

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
dc863
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:53 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 9):
TW, I believe had 707 and 747 a/c operating at this time on long haul runs.

Include L1011s as well.
 
CV990
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:51 pm

Hi!

In March 1989 I did a quite a long tour around USA with TWA, I flew MAD/JFL/SJU/MIA/STL/LAX/JFK/LIS flying mostly the L1011 Tristar and the 747 ( MAD/JFK ). I remember at that time already TW was not the biggest airline anymore in USA, for example in LAX or JFK there were a few airplanes in their terminals but not like it used to be...in LAX when I left there was only our L1011 from TW. In JFK I remember seeing in the Saarinen Terminal 3 or 4 TW flights leaving, the place didn't look crowed or very buzzy, and I say that because first time I was in TW was back to 1982 and that place "rocked"...lot's of people, lot's of flights. I also stopped at STL and there TW ruled still, I saw plenty of 727's, DC-9's, L1011's a few 767's and maybe 1 or 2 747's. In July 2001 I passed again by STL right when TW started to be absorved by AA and STL was very, very weak. I remember seeing some MD80's, 717's a few 757's and 1 767-300, what a difference, I even took a last picture of STL and the TW airplanes when I was leaving STL..I knew I wouldn't have that sight again in the future.
I think TW started to slide down after they ordered the 767, TW fleet started to be really old back to early 80's, specially their long-haul fleet, the early 747-100's models and the L1011 Tristar, I remember that TW did a search "around the world" and got "pairs" of 747's, they got 2 from BA, 2 from IB, 2 from TP, 2 from OA trying to refresh a bit their fleet, but that was in vain, the L1011 although was a great airplane in late 80's was already an airplane with more than 15 years old and TW had a big fleet of those that should have started to be replaced in mid 80's maybe....
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:34 pm

My first TWA international flight was one way Geneva to JFK in the summer of 1977. It was a 707 and there were a total of 17 passengers on the flight. I remember counting 5 in FC with the rest of us in coach. TWA had their own tour company. It was linked up with hotel alliances in several European cities into which they fed the tour people. It was a quality business, and travel with them was seamless on these tour packages.
 
L1011Lover
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting GREATANSETT (Thread starter):
Can someone please explain how TWA's international operations seemed to have fallen apart so quickly. I heard that in either 1988 or 89, TWA commanded over 50% of the Atlantic crossings. How in the space of ten years did its operations disintergrate so quickly?

Not that they commanded 50% of all transatlantic crossings but in the summer of 1990 TWA offered more daily flights US-Europe than any other airline. Pan Am the traditional number one at this point probably being number two. Of course TWA and Pan Am had their long traditional fight for the number one title.

TWA offered nonstop service from 9 US cities to Europe.

In late 1990 Icahn began selling TWA´s crown jewels and LHR route authorities went to AA. This was really the beginning of the downsizing of TWA´s Atlantic operation. In 1995 they were down to 13 daily transatlantic flights. This lasted till after the crash of TWA800. After the accident they virtually dismantled their transatlantic operation, over the course of 5 years. I remember how shocked I was when I heard of TWA abandoning their daily JFK-FRA-JFK flight. Service ended on January 14th, 1997 along with JFK-ATH-JFK. A really sad day to me. I really couldn't´t believe it back than.

I flew TWA for the last time in march of 2001. Flight routings were: CDG-JFK-STL-TUL and reverse. The TUL-STL leg was flown with 717 equipment. My first and so far only flight on this aircraft type.

I have fond memories of TWA.

If anyone is interested I have TWA´s system timetable effective July 1st, 1990 as well as every single timetable from summer 1995 to the last one they published before being fully integrated into AA.

Best regards

L1011Lover

[Edited 2007-08-22 12:59:53]
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Cody (Reply 8):
Not too long after that, TWA lost its Fifth Freedom authorities out of CDG.

Oh really? I never knew they lost their 5th freedom authorities out of CDG. I thought they simply weren´t using them anymore. How did they lose them? I always thought they went to AA with all of TWA´s assets. Does anybody know if Delta still have their 5th freedom rights from FRA inherited from Pan Am? They used them until 1997 (FRA-BOM was served till 2001 and then transferred to CDG) when they began downsizing and then closing their FRA hub.

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
Cody
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 14):
Oh really? I never knew they lost their 5th freedom authorities out of CDG. I thought they simply weren´t using them anymore. How did they lose them? I always thought they went to AA with all of TWA´s assets.

I read it recently somewhere and will try to find it. The long-and-short version was the French government pulled them for diplomatic reasons. Sorry, I don't recall any other details, but will try to find the article.
 
CV990
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:21 pm

Hi!

I too have good memories of my flights with TW... here are the planes and the routes I flew with them:

MAD/JFK - N93106 - 747-131
JFK/SJU - N31030 - L1011-385-15 Tristar 100
SJU/MIA/STL - N7035T - L1011-385-15 Tristar 100
STL/LAX - N31013 - L1011-385-1 Tristar 1
LAX/JFK/LIS - N31019 - L1011-385-1 Tristar 50

I still remember that in my 747 flight from MAD to JFK the Captain walked on the aisle and we had a brief talk, he asked me were I was from, I said I was from LIS and he said he landed there a number of times....old school Captain, nice guy, probably in their late 50's early 60's but still walking and talking with the passengers, very nice indeed. The L1011 flights were all good, the Tristar was a great airplane and the only slightest disapointment was that I had big expectations to fly the route JFK to LIS in their 767-200ER ( actually in their schedule the equipment supposed to be the 767-200ER...) but in the end I boarded the same Tristar...but now, looking back to that time after 18 years I really don't regret anymore...I flew almost 23 flying houes in those L1011's and I tried 3 models, the 1, 50 and 100..maybe flying a quite "rare" Tristar 1 ( used only domestically ) is my "ceown of glory"!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:29 pm

TWA was definitely all over the map, literally, on it's trans-Atlantic routes over the years. I have timetables from the 60's all the way up to the end. Some years they flew to 15 or more destinations in Europe, plus other places such CAI, TLV, destinations in Africa. Other years, Europe went down to a handful of routes, then a year or so later, the number went back up. I think we all agree Mr. Icahn was the main culprit in TW's demise, but I think they lost some of their international luster once other U.S. carriers started receiving authority to fly across the pond. Just as JFK lost some of it's status as "America's Gateway". The arrival of the 767 and opening of even more routes bypassing the east coast just accelerated it. I think it also affected Pan Am as well, but that's a different thread. I would say 1970-1974 were the years when TWA was it's biggest internationally, including the around-the-world service. Too bad they are gone.
 
L1011Lover
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 17):
I think we all agree Mr. Icahn was the main culprit in TW's demise, but I think they lost some of their international luster once other U.S. carriers started receiving authority to fly across the pond. Just as JFK lost some of it's status as "America's Gateway". The arrival of the 767 and opening of even more routes bypassing the east coast just accelerated it.

Absolutely, I highly agree.

On the other hand when I look at their 1990 timetable I´m amazed how many routes they served bypassing JFK. And we shouldn't´t forget that it was actually TWA that first introduced 767 trans-atlantic operations in the mid 80´s.

It´s a shame that a once innovative airline wasn´t able to really adapt to the changes that airline deregulation brought.

I think their biggest problem was their single hub operation. They were never really able to (re)develop JFK into a real hub.

They served some interesting non-hub routes like PHL-LHR, BWI-FRA but what´s worth all that in a post deregulation market?

The majority of their transatlantic routes were served from JFK of course, the traditional pre-deregulation US gateway, however they also flew internationally from LAX, STL (their main hub), BOS, PHL, EWR, BWI, IAD and ORD. I believe they would have been way better off if they would have been able to develop at least one more of these airports into some sort of hub or focus city operation. I know, I know... which city... all of them already served as a hub for other airlines... but anyhow...

Well that´s just my opinion... I guess we´ll never know... lol...
 
TWFirst
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 18):
The majority of their transatlantic routes were served from JFK of course, the traditional pre-deregulation US gateway, however they also flew internationally from LAX, STL (their main hub), BOS, PHL, EWR, BWI, IAD and ORD. I believe they would have been way better off if they would have been able to develop at least one more of these airports into some sort of hub or focus city operation.

Years ago, they had a sizable operation at ORD. They tried developing ATL into a mini-hub in the 90's with disasterous results. They did have success in SJU in the late 90's, quickly growing to #2 in Caribbean after AA, and were beginning to build up LAX at the very end before the acquisition. They weren't able to make JFK work as a true mega-hub because they were so limited by their outdated facilities...during the 90's they ended several domestic routes from JFK, including CLE, DTW, MSP, and several Florida routes after B6 started up in 2000... although they expanded transcon routes to LAX, SFO, etc.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
avion660
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 16):
I still remember that in my 747 flight from MAD to JFK the Captain walked on the aisle and we had a brief talk

Same here. I took the TW 767 from LGW to STL (TW721) back in 1998 with my baby son. Captain came to the back and had a chat with his youngest passenger (then 5 months)... a very nice 'old' bloke.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 11):
I even took a last picture of STL and the TW airplanes when I was leaving STL..I knew I wouldn't have that sight again in the future.

Like you I took some shots at STL and was able to compare them to later visits in 2004 and 2006. What a difference.. C gates deserted, when before it was a madhouse of 727s and DC9s, and a few 767s. Shame.
 
28L28L
Posts: 274
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:09 am

Can anyone tell me when TW flew BWI-FRA? I don't remember that one. Thanks.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting 28L28L (Reply 21):
Can anyone tell me when TW flew BWI-FRA? I don't remember that one. Thanks.

That's one I don't recall either. I thought the only trans-Atlantic route they ever flew from BWI was London. I could dig through my timetables but that's a major hassle. Will do a little surfing and see if I can find it.
 
CV990
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:54 am

Hi!

TW flights to LIS used to be done in the good old days with the L1011 Tristar in the summer, daily ending at BCN both ways. In the winter TW would fly a few days a week from JFK to LIS and then MAD with the 747, that latter was changed to the 767 or the L1011 Tristar. When I flew with TW to USA ( in one of my above posts ) in that particular day there was no TW flight from LIS, so I had to take a TP 727-200 from LIS to MAD, and then pick the TW 747....I had to cross "two times" my little Portugal, eh!eh!eh!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 19):
Years ago, they had a sizable operation at ORD. They tried developing ATL into a mini-hub in the 90's with disasterous results. They did have success in SJU in the late 90's, quickly growing to #2 in Caribbean after AA, and were beginning to build up LAX at the very end before the acquisition. They weren't able to make JFK work as a true mega-hub because they were so limited by their outdated facilities...during the 90's they ended several domestic routes from JFK, including CLE, DTW, MSP, and several Florida routes after B6 started up in 2000... although they expanded transcon routes to LAX, SFO, etc.

Yeah, they drastically downsized ORD as they just couldn't compete with UA´s and AA´s huge presence there, and I know of the ill-fated attempt to develop ATL as a hub. They were probably a bit late in introducing hubs anyway, as they were a traditional point-to-point carrier and when they finally began operating "real" hubs most other major carriers had theirs already well established and running and therefore a big advantage over TWA´s operation. As innovative and industry-leading they were in some things, as lame and and unable to keep up they were in other things. TWA was also very slow in making small commuter airlines provide spokes to their hubs under the TWA brand and flight number. The first TWA Express service began on August 5th, 1985.

I too believe that their outdated facilities at JFK were a contributing factor to their inability to create a sizable, full hub operation there.

By the way, I gave a wrong information in my previous post. The BWI-FRA service was actually a 1-stop service and the routing was BWI-LGW-FRA (but same flight number/same aircraft) the flight number was TW732 served with 767-200ER equipment. Sorry... my bad..

I was digging through my old TWA timetables and wanted to share the information on transatlantic services in some of them... Just see where they went to within a 10 year period...

TWA transatlantic and intra-Europe services from US effective July 1st, 1990

TW732 BWI-LGW daily
...........LGW-FRA daily
TW754 BOS-LHR daily
TW810 BOS-CDG daily
TW770 ORD-LHR daily
TW760 LAX-LHR daily
TW860 LAX-CDG daily
...........CDG-FCO tuesday, thursday
...........CDG-TLV saturday
TW834 EWR-CDG daily
...........CDG-CAI monday
...........CDG-FCO friday, saturday, sunday
TW814 JFK-AMS daily
TW880 JFK-ATH daily
TW902 JFK-BCN daily
TW768 JFK-BRU daily
TW816 JFK-CPH daily
TW740 JFK-FRA daily
...........FRA-IST daily
TW736** FRA-VIE daily (a tag on to TW740, 1-stop service JFK-VIE offered as TW744)
TW900 JFK-LIS daily
TW702 JFK-LHR daily
...........LHR-FRA daily
TW708 JFK-LHR daily
TW704 JFK-LHR daily
TW700 JFK-LHR daily
TW904 JFK-MAD daily
TW842 JFK-MXP daily
TW826 JFK-FBU daily
...........FBU-ARN daily
TW804 JFK-CDG daily
...........CDG-ZRH daily
TW822* CDG-STR daily (a tag on to TW804, 1-stop service JFK-STR offered as TW822)
TW838* CDG-MUC daily (a tag on to TW804, 1-stop service JFK-MUC offered as TW838)
TW800 JFK-CDG daily
...........CDG-CAI tuesday
...........CDG-TLV wednesday, thursday
TW840 JFK-FCO daily
TW848 JFK-FCO tuesday, wednesday, friday, saturday
...........FCO-CAI wednesday, saturday
TW884 JFK-TLV thursday, saturday, sunday
TW756 PHL-LHR daily
TW720 STL-LGW daily
TW818 STL-CDG daily
TW894 IAD-CDG daily
...........CDG-GVA daily

* no local traffic rights on TW822 CDG-STR and TW838 CDG-MUC
** full traffic rights on TW736 FRA-VIE, as well as on all other intra-European/CAI/TLV flight segments.

TWA transatlantic services from US effective June 15th, 1995

TW810 BOS-CDG daily
TW880 JFK-ATH daily
TW902 JFK-BCN daily
TW888 JFK-CAI monday, wednesday, friday
...........CAI-RUH tuesday, thursday, saturday
TW740 JFK-FRA daily
TW900 JFK-LIS daily
TW904 JFK-MAD daily
TW842 JFK-MXP daily
TW800 JFK-CDG daily
...........CDG-TLV monday, wednesday, thursday, saturday, sunday
TW840 JFK-FCO daily
TW848 JFK-FCO wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday
TW884 JFK-TLV daily
TW720 STL-LGW daily
TW818 STL-CDG daily

TWA transatlantic services from US effective June 1st, 2000

TW888 JFK-CAI daily except sunday
...........CAI-RUH daily except monday
TW900 JFK-LIS daily
TW842 JFK-MXP daily
TW924 JFK-CDG daily
TW884 JFK-TLV daily
TW720 STL-LGW daily
TW818 STL-CDG daily


Best regards

L1011Lover
 
SansVGs
Posts: 188
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 24):

I too believe that their outdated facilities at JFK were a contributing factor to their inability to create a sizable, full hub operation there.

Yes you are correct. That; and Carl Ichon. T-Way was the last of the pilot's airlines. I so miss them Smile
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19287
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:01 am

A few Time magazine articles on TWA from 1974 (and one on PA that year), 1975, and 1992 may be of interest. The last link covers the Carl Icahn issues. It's interesting to speculate what the US industry would look like now if Pan Am and TWA had merged, as they were urged to do by the Ford administration in 1974, when both carriers were in deep trouble after the first major fuel crisis and they were appealing for government subsidies, and their new 747s were flying half empty or worse on many routes.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,908933,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944849,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,917603,00.html
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,976255,00.html

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 14):
Quoting Cody (Reply 8):
Not too long after that, TWA lost its Fifth Freedom authorities out of CDG.

Oh really? I never knew they lost their 5th freedom authorities out of CDG. I thought they simply weren´t using them anymore. How did they lose them?

I had the same question. The US and French governments would have to agree to such a change and I can't see the US government agreeing to give something like that away.
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1508
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 18):
The majority of their transatlantic routes were served from JFK of course, the traditional pre-deregulation US gateway, however they also flew internationally from LAX, STL (their main hub), BOS, PHL, EWR, BWI, IAD and ORD.

TWA even flew DTW-ORY-FCO in the late 1960s. I believe the route only lasted a year or two. I think TWA also flew from SFO to LHR in the 1960s.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4492
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 25):
Yes you are correct. That [JFK]; and Carl Ichon.

JFK and Icahn were the proximate causes; but I think that TWA always lacked consistency. They would alternate between 4-5 brilliant years and then 4-5 terrible ones. They never had the resources to ride out bad years and were forced to do real damage to the company in order to survive. You have to blame erratic management from Howard Hughes on.

Then along came the parasite Icahn.

TWA was one of those "if only, if only" companies that repeatedly came so close to success and blew it every time.
 
semsem
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:49 pm

I think that one reason was that only TWA and PAN AM were allowed to offer International service; also Northwest was only allowed to fly to the Orient. After the law was changed to allow any US airline to fly international they then faced competition. Also the others started flying from regional cities and traffic no longer had to fly to New York, Chicago to connect on Pan Am or TWA flights.
 
slider
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 13):
In late 1990 Icahn began selling TWA´s crown jewels and LHR route authorities went to AA. This was really the beginning of the downsizing of TWA´s Atlantic operation. In 1995 they were down to 13 daily transatlantic flights. This lasted till after the crash of TWA800. After the accident they virtually dismantled their transatlantic operation, over the course of 5 years. I remember how shocked I was when I heard of TWA abandoning their daily JFK-FRA-JFK flight. Service ended on January 14th, 1997 along with JFK-ATH-JFK. A really sad day to me. I really couldn't´t believe it back than.

That's about as good a recap as I could have written...spot on with the routes. I remember the CAI and Riyadh flights in the 90s, man, what a shame.

Quoting Cody (Reply 15):
The long-and-short version was the French government pulled them for diplomatic reasons.

AF protectionism.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 28):
TWA was one of those "if only, if only" companies that repeatedly came so close to success and blew it every time.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. It is so tragic that such a great carrier literally saw times change around them and they stayed a dinosaur, with abysmal leadership, a battered workforce, and aged fleet. What a shame.
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:40 am

Quote:
It was many factors. During the late 1970's and early 1980's, a few of TWA's Trans-Atlantic routes were cut simply due to the individual profitability of the particular route (Casablanca and Santa Maria come to mind). In the mid-80's other U.S. carriers started flying to Europe which really brought yields down. The worst cuts came after Icahn sold off LHR and the Gulf War impacted the amount of people flying to Europe. I remember reading that TWA was literally cutting 50 percent of its European flights overnight due to the war. Not too long after that, TWA lost its Fifth Freedom authorities out of CDG. By the time the late 1990's rolled around, yields had eroded even more due to Carl Ichan's Karabu agreement. Then there was the grounding of the L1011's and 747's. Neither aircraft were really replaced due to TWA's financial state. A bunch of factors that all lead to a common conclusion.



Quote:
Then along came the parasite Icahn.



Quote:
It is so tragic that such a great carrier literally saw times change around them and they stayed a dinosaur, with abysmal leadership, a battered workforce, and aged fleet. What a shame.

There is a special place in hell reserved for Carl Icahn - and TWA was doomed the moment that their leadership had to choose between Frank Lorenzo and Carl Icahn.

And as far as I'm concerned, Saddam Hussein's igniting of the Kuwaiti oil wells when he was forced to retreat pales in comparison to the Karabu agreement. There was absolutely no way TWA could have ever survived that. At least AA was not subjected to Karabu, despite Icahn's attempts.

I miss TWA, but that patient was killed by its doctors a LONG time ago.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
masseybrown
Posts: 4492
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 31):
There is a special place in hell reserved for Carl Icahn - and TWA was doomed the moment that their leadership had to choose between Frank Lorenzo and Carl Icahn.

I've long wished that somebody (a union, if union leadership had any brains) would sue the Icahns of the world under the Rico Act for organized looting of companies. The right attorney general and jury could put these bums out of business; but we haven't had that kind of attorney general in decades.
 
sfotraveler
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:45 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:30 am

I remember their ads in the mid 1980s talked about them being the no. 1 airline across the Atlantic. Several 747s daily from jfk to LHR and CDG plus flights to Cairo, Athens, Rome, etc. I recall 747s and L1011 lined up on tarmac during peak hours and they used those people movers like Dulles. The gradual decline started with all that business with Lorenzo and Icahn.
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 27):
TWA even flew DTW-ORY-FCO in the late 1960s.

It stopped in BOS. They also tried DTW-BOS-LHR.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 27):
I think TWA also flew from SFO to LHR in the 1960s.

They did SFO-ORY, LAX-ORY and LAX-LHR, but far as I can see their only SFO-LHR flight was on the 1649.
 
timz
Posts: 6163
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 34):
far as I can see their only SFO-LHR flight was on the 1649.

They did fly SFO-LHR later-- 1977-78.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:19 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 16):
...I flew almost 23 flying houes in those L1011's and I tried 3 models, the 1, 50 and 100..maybe flying a quite "rare" Tristar 1 ( used only domestically )



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 24):
TW816 JFK-CPH daily

TW816 operated to ARN between May 1987 to Oct 1992. Sometimes B767 and sometimes Tristar. the routing was different every season. JFK-ARN-CPH-JFK was the commonest, daily in the summer and 5/week in the winter. But JFK-FBU-ARN-JFK was operated sometimes, with a separate non stop to CPH, and one disastrous day they tried JFK-ARN-FBU-JFK. The TWA planners had not seen that the FBU runway could not support a non-stop to JFK (it was very short), and the flight ended up flying to Gardemoen (now OSL) to refuel.

Anyway although the normal Tristar was a -100, we very often saw a domestic -1 aircraft at ARN. ARN-JFK is about the shortest route from Europe to the states, and operates North of the routes, routing over Iceland and Greenland. In fact it is only just an ETOPS route, when we had trouble with some ETOPS MEL item on the B767, the re-route to get the aircraft non-ETOPS was only 20 mins longer. The L1011-1 left ARN with full fuel tanks (no centre tank), and was usually in flight re flight planned, but I think it only once ended up in BOS for a refuel.
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:03 pm

Hi!

TristarSteve, that information is very interesting...seeing the Model 1 flying to Sweden it's in a historically point a view very valuable. By the way now that we are talking about Tristar models what was the main difference between the Tristar 1 and Tristar 50.
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
B767300ER
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:05 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:37 am

When I first started flying for TW on International Services as an TLV / LLBG), Israel">LOD I was able to hold the BOS-CDG-TLV-CDG-BOS
route which gave us a day in Paris on each rotation. The equipment was an L1011 and the flights were usually full out of
CDG/TLV with many connecting passengers.
The corporate attitude changed at TWA when, and I know there are going to be many heated replies to this comment,
the OZARK "boys" took over. From management to operations to crew scheduling the OZARK "boys" never grasped the International services. I can recall many heated debates with college basketball charters taking priority over regular operations. In the late 90's these OZARK "boys" were so happy to close down operations at JFK - Hanger 12 and move back to St.Louis that what eventually happened to them in STL by AA cutbacks in STL just put a smile on NYC based
crew. So what did in International operations were "regional" mentality cutting out profitable cities overseas, e.g. ATH,
ROM, MXP, MAD, BCN as well as our German cities.
 
N383PA
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:09 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:08 am

Oh yes, those were the days. I remember TWA flying to Berlin in 1987. I flew JFK-BRU-TXL. From JFK to BRU on L1011 N31018 and then to TXL B727-31 N846TW. That L1011 then flew onwards to MUC.

In Berlin they did domestic services to FRA/MUC/STR with B727-100. Later they flew B727-200. They also operated from 1988 direct service on L1011 to JFK via BRU and then via CPH.

The last time I flew TWA in 1994 TXL-BRU-JFK on B767 N603TW then JFK-MIA B727-231 N54336, MIA-JFK B727-231 N54337 and JFK-BRU-TXL B767 N609TW.

With the reunification of Germany in 1990 and the downfall of TWA and Pan Am that was the end of the big known
US carriers. Even though TWA survived a bit longer they never returned to there former glory.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1579
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:51 am

Another factor that sorta figures into this the fleet composition. IIRC, around the start of 1974 TWA was still flying a few Convair 880's, though I think they were all wfu by spring 74 or so. TWA also had a fleet of 80-88 B-707's..a mix of 131's and 331's. It took TWA until sometime in 83 to retire all the 707's. Now I don't have all the figurea readily available, but I would bet that there were never enough ETOPS 767's or L-1011's to ever replace the 707's on the various thinner trans-Atlantic runs and maintain cpacity on core USA routes.

Too bad the trans-Atlantic capability of the 757 was not realized sooner. TWA might have made the decision to obtain say 25 frames much earlier and been able to maintain some of those thinner route.

Now Karabu and all the other stuff play into it all..I was just making the observation of fleet composition for the missions needed. The initial oil price hike in 73-74 was bad enough for anyone flying any large numbers of 707's. But the big spike when the Shah left Iran put the final nail in the coffin for profitable707 ops.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4309
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RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:09 am

I miss TWA. I took them from MAD-JFK the day their L-1011 crashed on take-off at JFK. We were delayed a few hours as a result of it.

The thing I remember was the crew was phenomenal. They were staffed to 9 (and did a great job). They found out I was a non-rev (especially a CO employee (they knew Lorenzo and Icahn were on and the same)) and treated me like royalty. The other passengers thought I was a star (I sure felt like one).
You can't cure stupid
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:33 am

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 40):
Now I don't have all the figurea readily available, but I would bet that there were never enough ETOPS 767's or L-1011's to ever replace the 707's on the various thinner trans-Atlantic runs and maintain cpacity on core USA routes.

My brother was a flight engineer on the TWA 707 doing trans-Atlantic when other airlines were rapidly or had already shed their 707/DC8's. He told me once they just never had the financial ability to replace them in quantity, thus the need to operate them across the pond longer than they really should have. Your theory makes perfect sense.
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4495
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting Avion660 (Reply 20):
Like you I took some shots at STL and was able to compare them to later visits in 2004 and 2006. What a difference.. C gates deserted, when before it was a madhouse of 727s and DC9s, and a few 767s. Shame.

I have a photo from 1998 that shows a classic 727 in the twin stripes departign with a brand new 757-200 right behind it...

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 28):
JFK and Icahn were the proximate causes; but I think that TWA always lacked consistency. They would alternate between 4-5 brilliant years and then 4-5 terrible ones. They never had the resources to ride out bad years and were forced to do real damage to the company in order to survive. You have to blame erratic management from Howard Hughes on.

Then along came the parasite Icahn.

TWA was one of those "if only, if only" companies that repeatedly came so close to success and blew it every time.

Howard Hughes never tore down the airline, though. While he may have been insane in reality, he prized and loved TWA more than any of his other "investments" or "toys". The duo of him and Jack Frye were practically unstoppable, but Jack Frye did have enough with Hughes' insanity.

It wasn't really until deregulation and Charles Tillinghast and the Trans World Corp. BOD decided to spin off TWA the airline and focus on other investments instead. That and also, there really was no clear leader at the helm after Ed Smart left. Also, when the 707's were finally retired, TWA had no clear replacement, and the capacity levels were dropping with each 707 that left. Aside from the dozen or so 767-200's TWA ordered, the only other "new" aircraft to come online was the MD-80's, which had less capacity that the 707's ever did.

When Icahn took over, (i believe) this was in the middle of the Flight 847 ordeal, so people stayed away from Trans-Atlantic/Mediterannean travel after that. This being only 2-3 years before Pan Am 103 being blown out of the sky, TWA's Trans-Atlantic heavy schedule took a massive hit, one from which it couldnt recover being under the "guidance" of Carl Icahn. Not to mention the F/A strike, and Icahn's bluff of threatening to sell off the Domestic system, buying out OZ, adding all their old planes to an already old fleet, the cost of moving to STL from NYC, hurt the airline in so many ways, I'm actually surprised we lasted as long as we did.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
WA707atMSP
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:16 pm

RE: TWA And Its International Operations?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 40):
I don't have all the figurea readily available, but I would bet that there were never enough ETOPS 767's or L-1011's to ever replace the 707's on the various thinner trans-Atlantic runs and maintain cpacity on core USA routes.

I've read that TWA under invested in its fleet in the late 1970s and early 1980s because management thought it would be more profitable to buy some of the non airline businesses that were bought during this time frame, like Century 21 Real Estate, Hardees Restaurants, and Dunhill Employment Services, than it would be to buy more airplanes for the airline.

Of course, by starving the airline, at a time when AA, UA, and DL were investing in new aircraft, TWA management wound up killing it.

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