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TVNWZ
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AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:20 am

AF diversion lasts 6 hours. Upset passangers..

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/9352466.html

Update on this report...apparently Customs WAS available, but the pilot did not want to spend the night in Milwaukee so he kept everyone inside waiting for clearance to ORD that never came. Finally the crew timed out and everyone got off when they could have gotten off much sooner.
 
airtran737
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Thread starter):
Update on this report...apparently Customs WAS available, but the pilot did not want to spend the night in Milwaukee so he kept everyone inside waiting for clearance to ORD that never came. Finally the crew timed out and everyone got off when they could have gotten off much sooner.

MKE Customs is able to handle a GV on a short notice basis, not a full A340. I would have kept them on the plane as well.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
MKE Customs is able to handle a GV on a short notice basis, not a full A340. I would have kept them on the plane as well.

Actually, customs is saying they were there and ready. Customs in MKE can easily handle A-320s and such on Mexican charters and have handled widebodies in the past on diverted flights from ORD without problems.
 
airtran737
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 2):
Actually, customs is saying they were there and ready. Customs in MKE can easily handle A-320s and such on Mexican charters and have handled widebodies in the past on diverted flights from ORD without problems.

Those charters are scheduled service, and therefore Customs is staffed for it. If you drive over to the IAB in MKE you will see that on a given day there is only one or two cars parked there. Where in the article does it say that Customs had staffing for this arrival? If they cleared it, that means they called people in from home. They just don't have that kind of manning there. I only worked at Mitchell for four and a half years and handled Internatinal charters, I wouldn't know what I am taking about would I?  Yeah sure
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mke717spotter
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:31 am

Is the plane still at MKE? I scanned through flightaware and did not see it under departures.
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TVNWZ
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 3):
Where in the article does it say that Customs had staffing for this arrival? If they cleared it, that means they called people in from home. They just don't have that kind of manning there. I only worked at Mitchell for four and a half years and handled Internatinal charters, I wouldn't know what I am taking about would I?

I am not questioning your knowledge. I am just passing along info. WTMJ radio had someone from the airport saying customs was standing by to clear the flight, but the crew declined. That is all. The logistics of how customs got there, I will leave to you. Chill.
 
airtran737
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 5):
I am not questioning your knowledge. I am just passing along info. WTMJ radio had someone from the airport saying customs was standing by to clear the flight, but the crew declined. That is all. The logistics of how customs got there, I will leave to you. Chill

No harm no foul. It would be nice if MKE could staff the Customs office for times when ORD goes to hell. It would make life easier for a lot of people. The only thing is, KE can only handle one widebody at a time, so the wait could get extensive. Sometimes in the winter you would see Apple, Midwest, and Allegiant all parked at the IAB waiting to get onto the jetway.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
The only thing is, KE can only handle one widebody at a time, so the wait could get extensive.

It happens. CLE has two gates for international arrivals right now (A-14 and A-16, I believe). If more than one flight arrives, one sometimes has to wait.

The AF flight could have cleared customs in MKE when it arrived, it may have taken a while too. Sh** happens. We had a DC-10 cancel from CDG-IAH in MSY. It took a while, too, but we cleared. These things happen.
You can't cure stupid
 
mkeflyer717
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 4):
Is the plane still at MKE?

Yeah, its suprisingly still here...

I took that around 5pm today and it didnt look like it was leaving anytime soon. I've never seen a diversion sit here so long before.
Avoid the Chicago ORDeal!! Fly MKE!
 
MKENut
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting Mkeflyer717 (Reply 8):

Local news says it will be taking off at 11pm Central Time tonight. Also it was the AF crew that did not want to deplane. MKE Customs was not at fault. It doesn't take 6 hours to get customs to report to work.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 7):
It happens. CLE has two gates for international arrivals right now (A-14 and A-16, I believe). If more than one flight arrives, one sometimes has to wait.

A11, A14...
Why do I fly???
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:08 pm

Well its a little bit past 11 here in MKE now so I guess that A343 should be headin down to ORD momentarily. Anyone know what's goin to happen to that bird when it gets to ORD?
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
davescj
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:35 pm

As a EU carrier, do the pax get the compensation? or does that not apply in this case, since I"m guessing that the diversion was due to weather?
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mke717spotter
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:45 pm

The flight finally left for ORD at about 11:26 pm.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFR50
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HowSwedeitis
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:52 pm

Even if there were only two customs agents, I would have rather waited in an airport, or even in a line outside rather than in a hot and humid plane with no water or toilet usage! I wonder if the first class PAX just reclined and went to bed. (I know I would.) I bet the pilots just slid the windows open and read a book!  Wink
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aaflt1871
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:17 pm

My question is, if the crew timed out, who flew it down to ORD then? To be honest I do not know how that works when it comes to timing out. Are there provisions that allow the same crew to continue the flight to its final destination?
Where did everybody go?
 
star_world
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:57 pm

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
My question is, if the crew timed out, who flew it down to ORD then? To be honest I do not know how that works when it comes to timing out. Are there provisions that allow the same crew to continue the flight to its final destination?

It arrived in MKE yesterday, and flew out today. The same crew presumably spent the night in MKE and flew down to ORD tonight.
 
D328
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:07 pm

Sorry but if they see planes may be diverting to MKE from ORD, would they not call in more customs?
 
star_world
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting D328 (Reply 17):
Sorry but if they see planes may be diverting to MKE from ORD, would they not call in more customs?

Have you read this thread? Customs was not the issue here, it was the AF crew not wanting to spend the night in MKE and hoping they would eventually get clearance to ORD.
 
LHSTR
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Star_world (Reply 18):
Have you read this thread? Customs was not the issue here, it was the AF crew not wanting to spend the night in MKE and hoping they would eventually get clearance to ORD.

This is a no win situation for an airline, as you dont know how long your original airport will be closed.

People understandably complain when they are forced to stay longer on the plane than they have to. But if OHare all off a sudden reopened, they would understandably complain why they were not able to actually fly to ORD.

Add into this conclusion, that AF has no ground-handling whatsoever in MKE and it would be awfully hard to organize transfers, other flights, lost bags, etc.
 
ANother
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting Davescj (Reply 12):
As a EU carrier, do the pax get the compensation? or does that not apply in this case, since I"m guessing that the diversion was due to weather?

EU Regulation 291 does not apply to diversions, it applies to denied boarding, cancellations and long delays. Long delays are measured by the actual time of departure, not arrival.

In any case - why should AF pay compensation? The diversion wasn't their choice, ORD was closed. You may wish to second guess the PICs decision to hold in anticipation of being able to complete the flight as scheduled, the fact that the weather didn't co-operate shouldn't be a reason for compensation.
 
YXwatcherMKE
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:50 pm

Well form my point of view, and I was at MKE while the AF A-340 sat their in the at the north end of the field that the AF crew must have been offended that they were put so far away from the terminal. But what I saw was every attempt to have the aircraft moved to the IAB that "AirTran737 " stated could not have staff to take care of a plane that size. WRONG!! 30 minutes after the AF A-340 landed a AA B-777 came in proceeded right to the IAB, the jetway docked and 30 minutes later the jetway pulled away the 777 was pushed back and it then proceeded to move over to a position in front of the Skyways hanger where it sat until approx. 2000hrs, when AA departed on 19R. During this time the AF A-340 lost all power (Somewhere around 1830) and the doors had been open for about an hour before it went totally dark. About 2030 the aircraft was able to power up. Shortly after that ATC asked AF if it wanted to go to the IAB and the reply was "NO we will be cleared for ORD soon" ATC asked them "Sir do you information that we do not? Because MKE ATC has not any info the that fact." There was about 10 of us "watchers" at the viewing area that were all LOL. laughing  If I were the passengers of that Flight I would be asking for some kind of compensation from AF for that lost time at the pilots stupidity. I left @ 2115 with no change in the situation. It was nice however to see so many widebodies at MKE on the ground at the same time, at ORD's expense.  drool 
Oh BTW, this is my first post, but I been a reader for years now.
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LHSTR
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:04 pm

However,

if I wanted to go Chicago I would also not be too happy if I all of a sudden found myself in Milwaukee...

AA also has staff at MKE making it much easier to reroute the passengers to their final destination.
 
Skyway1
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting LHSTR (Reply 22):
However,

if I wanted to go Chicago I would also not be too happy if I all of a sudden found myself in Milwaukee...

I'd much rather go to Milwaukee than Chicago. Even if I had to drive back to Northern Illinois...
KNUK, KNUK, KNUK woowoowoo
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 21):
Shortly after that ATC asked AF if it wanted to go to the IAB and the reply was "NO we will be cleared for ORD soon" ATC asked them "Sir do you information that we do not? Because MKE ATC has not any info the that fact." There was about 10 of us "watchers" at the viewing area that were all LOL.

That is why the FAA and airlines ban scanners from being used onboard, it would only cause rioting. Big grin
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
YXwatcherMKE
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 24):
That is why the FAA and airlines ban scanners from being used onboard, it would only cause rioting.

I understand the ban of scanners I lost one in 2002. I had no intention of using it on the flight, it was for a gift to my brother. it was still in the wrapping paper and sealed and such. but a ban is a ban. however, if I would have heard that information from watching the news or maybe a friend or relative sending me the link from WTMJ-4, to know that IAB was so close by and waiting for us, plus knowing we were not going anywhere I would flip out.  hissyfit 
I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 6):
It would be nice if MKE could staff the Customs office for times when ORD goes to hell.

So when are they going to schedule them? 30 days in advance? 15 days in advance? You can't predict the weather, and thats exactly what crew scheduling is, no matter the industry.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
mk777
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:50 am

A similar incident happened to me when i flew CDG-DEL and we had to divert to HYD due to low visibility (dense fog) at DEL. HYD though, is about a 2hr flight to DEL, unlike MKE-ORD. The crew didn't let pax get down at HYD, even though customs/immigration is available there, KL flies to HYD, so their ground crew brought us food from outside (sandwiches) which was quite commendable considering it was 2am there. After around 4 to 5 hrs we headed to DEL and were only allowed to disembark there.

SO i guess it must be an AF rule to not allow pax to disembark and clear immigration at the diverted airport, but wait till the weather clears and only allow disembarking at the scheduled airport. But in this case, since the crew timed out, nothing could be done and pax had to disemabark but this wait and watch policy of AF (if it exists) should be changed and pax should be given the option to clear customs and find other ways to get to their destination. In my case above, i had no option but to wait as my final destination was Delhi and the only flight to DEL from HYD would not depart until later that afternoon (if i was offered the option to take a domestic flight).
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airtran737
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 26):
So when are they going to schedule them? 30 days in advance? 15 days in advance? You can't predict the weather, and thats exactly what crew scheduling is, no matter the industry.

You can watch the weather and when the extended forecast says there will be rain then someone could say "you three agents are on call". Is it really that hard?
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:00 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 28):
You can watch the weather and when the extended forecast says there will be rain then someone could say "you three agents are on call". Is it really that hard?

Beleiving weather people is like getting your news from FOX.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
N822ME
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 28):
You can watch the weather and when the extended forecast says there will be rain then someone could say "you three agents are on call". Is it really that hard?

I gather you love being on reserve.  Smile In fact, I bet you bid reserve lines every month by choice.
 
A340Spotter
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 24):
That is why the FAA and airlines ban scanners from being used onboard, it would only cause rioting



Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 25):
I understand the ban of scanners I lost one in 2002. I had no intention of using it on the flight, it was for a gift to my brother. it was still in the wrapping paper and sealed and such. but a ban is a ban.

Don't suppose you have a link for this ban, do you? Reason I ask is that it may explain why my scanner disappeared about 2 years ago on a flight from EWR-IAH with no explanation or idea as to it's whereabouts! (Checked bag).

Cheers
JSD
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting A340Spotter (Reply 31):
Don't suppose you have a link for this ban, do you? Reason I ask is that it may explain why my scanner disappeared about 2 years ago on a flight from EWR-IAH with no explanation or idea as to it's whereabouts! (Checked bag).

I was joking but you can't have an radios on board a US airliner. I'm sure it's printed on ticket jackets. The reason your scanner vanished is probably because TSA stole it.

Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 26):
So when are they going to schedule them? 30 days in advance? 15 days in advance? You can't predict the weather, and thats exactly what crew scheduling is, no matter the industry.



Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 28):
You can watch the weather and when the extended forecast says there will be rain then someone could say "you three agents are on call". Is it really that hard?

It's the government, they can't think smart it's the law..hehe. Customs could easily have called everyone in and paid them triple time. But yes, like AT737 said, if chicago is forecast to have major weather let it be T-storms or snow they could put people on call.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
PanHAM
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:01 pm

Very bad show by AF.

Even one each customs / immigration agent could have cleared the passengers in much less time than 6 hours. Usually, airlines have handling agents at diversion airports as well. In AFs case, alliance partner NW would make the logical choice.

Arrange for buses to drive the pax down to Chicago, dispatching a bus when full, all could have been at their destination within the 6 hours.

Of course, a diversion is not the carriers choice, but they have to handle it properly.
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SkyexRamper
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RE: AF Stuck In MKE For 6 Hours

Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 33):
Usually, airlines have handling agents at diversion airports as well. In AFs case, alliance partner NW would make the logical choice.

Arrange for buses to drive the pax down to Chicago, dispatching a bus when full, all could have been at their destination within the 6 hours.

Well of course they could have done different, but since they didn't because the captain made the call. There isn't much that can be done now.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!