timberwolf24
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 8:38 am

American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:02 pm

In reading several topics regarding American Airlines at my home town airport of ORD, (I'm now living in So Cal but Chicago will ALWAYS be home,) it sounded as if American was pulling out of ORD. There seems to me to be a consensus here on A net that American is pulling back at ORD in a big way. Yes, American is pulling out of several markets and reducing flights in others so I decided to compare the American/American Eagle schedule at ORD. I took Monday
August 27 and Monday December 13 to do this comparison and this is what I found. Between August 27 and December 13 American has reduced flights at ORD by a grand total of 1. Over all flight reductions with routes ended or frequency being reduced was 27. Over all flight additions with new routes being opened or frequencies being increased was 26. To me it seems like most of the reduction was due to seasonal shifts in air travel due to ORD being slot controlled.
Below is a list of non stop markets form ORD with the number of daily flights and aircraft type. As both dates are a Monday I would believe this should be a good weekday schedule. If I have missed anything let me know.


CITY..........8/27.......AC TYPE........12/13....AC TYPE..........CHANGE
ALB...........3..........ERD....................3............ ERD....................0
ABQ..........2...........M80....................1............ M80...................-1
ATL...........6...........4 M80 2 CR7........6............ 4 M80 2 CR7.......0
AUS..........5...........M80.....................5............ M80....................0
BWI...........4...........ER4.....................4.............ER4...................0
BTR...........1...........ERD....................1.............ERD...................0
BHM..........2...........ER4.....................2.............ER4...................0
BMI...........3............2 ERD 1 ER4........3............ER4...................0
BOS........11............M80....................9.............M80..................-2
BRU..........1............763.....................1.............763....................0
BUF...........4............ER4...................4..............ER4..................0
CUN....SAT ONLY.....757....................1..............757...................1
CID...........7..............ER4...................7.............ER4..................0
CMI...........7.............ER4...................7.............5 ER4 2 ERD....0
CLT..........5............4 ER4 1 ERD.......4.............2 ER4 2 ERD....-1
CHA.........2.............ER4..................2................ER4................0
CVG........7..............5 ER4 2 ERD......6............4 ER4 2 ERD.....-1
CLE.........5.............3 ER4 2 CR7.......5............3 ER4 2 CR7......0
COS........1...............CR7....................0.................................-1
CMH......11.....5 ER4 5 CR7 1 ERD...10.....6 ER4 3 CR7 1 ERD... -1
DFW......17....15 M80 1 757 1 777.....17.............16 M80 1 777......0
DAY........3................2 ER4 1ERD......3.............2 ER4 1 ERD......0
DEL.........1...............777...................1...............777..................0
DEN.........6..............M80................5...............M80................-1
DSM.........8.............ER4.................8..............ER4.................0
DTW.........6....3 M80 2 CR7 1 757.....6...........4 M80 1 CR7.......0
DUB.........1..............763.................1..............763..................0
DBQ.........4...........2 ERD 2 ER4......4...........2 ERD 2 ER4.....0
ELP..........2............M80.................2..............M80...............0
EVV.........6.............ER4.................6..............ER4..............0
EZE..........0...................................1...............763................1
XNA..........5....3 CR7 1 ER4 1 M80....6..........4 CR7 2 ER4.....1
FNT.........4.............ER4..................4..............ER4...............0
FRA........1............763.....................1.............763...............0
FLL.........2............M80....................3.............M80...............1
RSW......1.............M80....................3.............M80...............2
FWA.......5.............ER4...................5.............ER4................0
GRR........6..........5 ER4 1 ERD........6.............ER4................0
GRB.......5.............ER4...................5..............ER4...............0
GSP.......3.............ER4...................3..............ER4...............0
YHZ....Sa Su..........CR7.......................................................0
MDT.......3..............ER4..................2...............ER4.............-1
BDL........5.............ERD..................5..............ERD..............0
HNL........1.............763....................1...............763..............0
IAH.........3..............M80.................3................M80.............0
HSV.......2...............ER4.................2..............ER4..............0
IND........8....4 ER4 2 CR7 2 M80......8...4 ER4 3 CR7 1 M80....0
JAC.... Sa Only.......757..................1..............757...............1
JAN.......1................ER4................1..............ER4................0
JAX.......2...............ER4..................2.............ER4.................0
AZO......5...........3 ER4 2 ERD........5............3 ER4 2 ERD.....0
MCI.......6..............M80..................6..............M80................0
TYS......4................ER4................3..............ER4................-1
LSE......4................ER4................4..............ER4.................0
LAS.......5...........3 M80 2 757........5...........3 M80 2 757.........0
LEX.......2...............ERD................2.............ERD.................0
LIT.........6..........3 CR7 3 ER4........6.......... 3 CR7 3 ER4........0
LHR.......5...............777.................5...............777.................0
LAX......10......5 757 4 M80 1 763....10.....5 M80 4 757 1 763....0
SDF.......5.......4 ER4 1 ERD............5.......4 ER4 1 ERD.........0
MSN......7...............ER4.................7.............ER4.................0
MAN......1...............763..................1.............763..................0
MQT.......2..............ER4..................1.............ER4...............-1
MEM......5.....2 CR7 2 ER4 1 ERD.....5.......3 ER4 2CR7.........0
MEX.......1...............757................Sa Only......757...............-1
MIA.........8.........7 757 1 777............9...........8 757 1 763.......1
MKE.......4...............ER4.................4.............ER4................0
MSP.......8..............M80.................8..............M80................0
MOB.......1..............ER4.................1.............ER4................0
MLI.........4..............ER4.................4.............ER4............... 0
YUL........5......3 ER4 1 M80............5.........3 ER4 2 M80.........0
BNA........7... 4 ER4 2 CR7 1 M80...7.....3 CR7 3 ER4 1 M80....0
NAS........1..............CR7................1..............CR7..................0
EWR.......6..............M80................6..............M80.................0
SWF........2.............ER4.................0....................................-2
MSY........2..............M80................3..............M80.................1
JFK..........2.............ER4................3.........2 M80 1 ER4.........1
LGA.......19............M80................17..............M80...............-2
ORF........2............ER4...................0..................................-2
OKC.......4.......2 CR7 2 ER4...........4..........2 CR7 2 ER4.........0
OMA.......6......5 ER4 1 CR7............6...............ER4................0
SNA........4.............757...................4..............757.................0
MCO........4...........M80...................5...............M80................1
YOW.......3...........ER4...................3................ER4...............0
PSP....Sa Only.....M80...................2................M80................2
CDG.........1...........763..................1.................763.................0
PNS..........2..........ERD.................2.................ERD...............0
PIA............5....4 ER4 1 ERD..........5............4 ER4 1 ERD.......0
PHL..........5...........M80.................5.................M80................0
PHX..........5......4 M80 1 757..........6.................M80................1
PIT...........4............ER4................4.................ER4................0
PDX..........2...........M80.................0......................................-2
PVD.........3...........ERD.................3..................ERD..............0
PVR....Sa Only.......M80.................2..................M80..............2
RDU.........5............M80.................5..................M80..............0
RNO.........1............757..................1..................757...............0
RIC...........4...... 3 ER4 1 ERD.........4............2 ER4 2 ERD......0
RST..........7.............ER4................7..................ER4.............0
ROC.........4.............ER4.................4.................ER4.............0
FCO.........1.............763..................1.................763 MWThSa ONLY
SLC..........2............M80.................2.................M80...............0
SAT..........3............M80.................3.................M80...............0
SAN..........5............M80.................4.................M80............. -1
SFO.........6....4 M80 1 763 1 757.....6.............5 M80 2 757.......0
SJC..........2.............M80................2.................M80...............0
SJD...Sa Su Only.....M80................1..................M80..............1
SJU...........3............757..................2.................757..............-1
SEA..........5............M80.................4.................M80.............-1
PVG..........1............777..................1.................777...............0
SNN..........1............757...................0....................................-1
SGF..........3........ 2 ER4 1 ERD.......3...........2 ER4 1 ERD.......0
STL.........11.........9 M80 2 757........12................M80..............1
SYR..........4.............ER4.................4................ER4..............0
TPA..........3..............M80................3.................M80..............0
NRT...........1.............777.................1.................777..............0
TOL...........4..............ER4...............4...........3 ER4 1 ERD......0
YYZ...........6.............M80...............8.............5 ER4 3 M80.....2
TVC...........4.............ER4...............2..................ER4............-2
TUS...........3.............M80................2..................M80.............-1
TUL............3.............M80...............4..............3 M80 1CR7.......1
VPS............0..................................1...................ER4.............1
DCA...........7.............M80...............7.............6 M80 1 CR7.......0
HPN.........10.............ERD.............10....................ERD............0
PBI............0...................................2....................M80............2
ICT.............5.............ER4...............5.....................ER4............0
HDN...........0..................................1.....................757.............1
EGE...........0..................................1.....................757.............1
ACA...........0.............................Sa Only...............M80
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
sfoqqaa
Posts: 28
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:42 am

RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:18 pm

Very Interesting. I believe AA has a schedule change taking affect on September 5th that may show a few other adjustments out of ORD. AA will not pull down ORD or give up the market. They have invested to much over the years and have made ORD a focal point for much of it's international expansion. Although Chicago is a huge point of origin market, connecting traffic is important as well and they will always be tweaking their domestic flights to compliment their international schedule.

I think many people forget that AA is more willing to drop a route and cut it's losses quicker than other carriers. Take a look at NGO and KIX. Adjustments made at ORD are probably prudent as the AA bean counters know where to reassign the planes. Although I am based in NYC and have a feeling they will try to expand the NY market soon, ORD will always play a very important role in the strength of AA's network.
 
SFOHORIZON
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:51 pm

I agree, I think ORD Is way too important and profitable for American to pull-back.

Here's why ORD is a logical hub for United and American - in a big city, perfect transit point to get people from point A to point B, with ORD the connecting hub between A and B, geographically it makes sense, ferrying people east-west even north south.

Now here's why AA won't be leaving ORD - It's their main international gateway. You don't pull down a hub while building up your international operations. Their next big expansion, ASIA, is out of ORD, Delhi, Shanghai and hopefully soon Beijing. They just added Buenos Aires right?

As slow as it is, ORD is expanding and modernizing, while Elk Grove sues to stop the modernization program once a month, they're on track to build and realign new runways, albeit slightly behind schedule.

Finally, just another notch to dispel another rumor, I spoke to an AA flight attendant a few weeks back and he said there is no chance of Delhi being canceled, he said the flight is always full. Now good loads don't necessarily mean high yields, but I think its safe to say that this route will be around for awhile.

Now if only AA would throw caution to the wind, get an agreement hammered out with its unions that satisfies both airlines and pilots, maybe they could expand internationally and take a page out of Delta's pagebook.

I live in SFO now, but ORD will also always be my home airport.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 575
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:56 pm

Thanks for this analysis, very interesting. However, it should be noted that a more apt comparison would probably be a year over year comparison rather than July vs December as many of the adds were seasonal adds that are added every year in December (EGE, RSW, PBI, FLL, JAC, HDN, etc). Other routes had adds due to a reduction in gauge of other aircraft (YYZ gains two net frequencies but loses 3 mainline frequencies). Looking through this, there does seem to be an overall reduction of service, mostly due to major market pullouts (such as PDX, ORF and COS) and reduction of flying in major markets like LGA, BOS, SAN and SEA for instance.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting Timberwolf24 (Thread starter):
In reading several topics regarding American Airlines at my home town airport of ORD, (I'm now living in So Cal but Chicago will ALWAYS be home,)

How crazy, we flip-floped!!! Im just moved to Chicago, but I was born in LA, I grew up in LA, and I moved back to LA once I graduated college in Texas. LAX will always be my home airport!!!

Quoting Timberwolf24 (Thread starter):
it sounded as if American was pulling out of ORD. There seems to me to be a consensus here on A net that American is pulling back at ORD in a big way.

The nice thing about AA (and UA as well) is the each hub plays a particular role. Ill try to sum the three largest hubs up as I see them:

For AA:

DFW: The largest and most important hub in the network. Its AA's "handy man". It is the largest domestic hub, their HQ, and has a decent sized Latin American (not as big as MIA), Europe (not as big as ORD or JFK), and Asia (two flights to Asia, same as ORD, just one destination instead of two). Relys mostly on connecting traffic to fill the planes.

ORD: The second largest hub, most of the traffic is focused on international flights as opposed to domestic (like DFW). ORD has the most destinations in Europe for AA, ORD is also AA's pick for flights to China. ORD makes great sense geographically as a hub. ORD-EZE is starting up, but in the same breath AA is cutting domestic service to ORD (mostly in favor of DFW and MIA). This to me says that AA is going to focus on International traffic there and let the domestic flights be timed for international connections. While AA is starting ORD-EZE, I dont see them makeing too much of a run at ORD-Latin America, DFW, JFK, and especially MIA will do that for them. ORD has a good mix of O&D and connecting traffic. That being said I belive UA gets more connecting traffic through ORD than does AA.

MIA: AA's Latin America connector. That pretty much sums it up. I dont think MIA will ever see the Europe service that ORD or JFK sees, more along the level of DFW for AA. But with its perfect geographic location in relation to Latin America, MIA will always be #1 to get there.

I will also say that I do think ORD is much more important for UA than it is for AA. I believe that ORD is the most important hub for UA by a long shot and that it is UA's "handy man" the same way that DFW is for AA. I believe that DFW is more important for AA than ORD, but that ORD is a very large piece of the puzzle that will always be there for AA.
It is what it is...
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:05 pm

Great post Timberwolf, I live in Chicago so I found it very interesting. In most cases, the reduction appears typical with seasonal downgrades in frequency and/or more American Eagle equipment, which is nothing new. ORD is arguably AA's second largest hub, and largest gateway to Europe and Asia. With all ridiculous rumors I've read on a.net about AA pulling back significantly at ORD, I'm glad you've posted this thread to put it to rest.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
SANFan
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:17 pm

Quoting Timberwolf24 (Thread starter):
Below is a list of non stop markets form ORD with the number of daily flights and aircraft type.

Great effort and nice job 'wolf.

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 3):
it should be noted that a more apt comparison would probably be a year over year comparison rather than July vs December as many of the adds were seasonal adds that are added every year in December (EGE, RSW, PBI, FLL, JAC, HDN, etc). Other routes had adds due to a reduction in gauge of other aircraft (YYZ gains two net frequencies but loses 3 mainline frequencies). Looking through this, there does seem to be an overall reduction of service, mostly due to major market pullouts (such as PDX, ORF and COS) and reduction of flying in major markets like LGA, BOS, SAN and SEA for instance.

I would, however, tend to agree with FF.

In the case of SAN we had 5x n/s to ORD last winter and this summer, but we're dropping to 4x starting 9/04; i.e., SAN is NOT a (recurring) seasonal reduction, but appears permanent (for now anyway)...

bb
 
IPFreely
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:52 pm

I have not heard or read anything about AA reducing operations or ending their hub operations at ORD.

From your chart (which is interesting), that doesn't appear to be the case.

The one thing that I noticed is that AA is dropping ORD-PDX service completely.

I suppose that AA couldn't get this route to perform with just 2 flights/day against UA's 6, but I'm still surprised. I would think there would be enough business demand that AA would keep this route, especially since their only connecting flights would add a lot of distance to this trip. Is AA reducing overall service at PDX?
 
B4REAL
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:52 pm

I think the entire schedule adjustment as a whole could be summed up as Winter scheduling changes. AA has a great base at ORD, and it is not yet getting diluted. In fact, they're adding service (recently announced ORD-EZE) when possible.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
aajfksjubklyn
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:46 pm

RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:52 pm

Didn't AA just have a big marketing campaign in ORD? Same as the one in NY? AA is ORD's hometown airline etc..

You also must remember that the dates chosen reflect a summer peak, more flights etc.., but, you also see more rotation in this period for mx purposes. I beleive immediately following Dec 13th, schedules beef up slightly for holidays. Correct me if I am wrong, the comparison, and the dates used are off kilter as many a planes are doing other things..like being duct taped and bondo'ed.  Smile. Just a thought. Maybe comparing a schedule such as Aug vs. May would be a fair or level way of figuring out the statistics.
 
DesertAir
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:13 pm

Thanks for the interesting topic. I am happy that AA has continued with the TUS-ORD market with three flights a day. UA pulled their flights a couple of years ago. WN has service to Midway with two flights a day.
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:19 pm

Thanks for an interesting and well researched topic Timberwolf. A lot of posts on this site pass off as "fact" when it is often just perception. Like you, ORD is my home, and I am glad AA is maintaining presence. That said, I wouldn't mind if the local Dictator encouraged some action, like having UA and AA replacing some of their RJs with larger planes to reduce congestion  Smile
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
quickmover
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RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:26 pm

How committed are they to STL? Do you guys think STL is profitable being mostly an RJ hub?
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: American At ORD

Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 12):
How committed are they to STL? Do you guys think STL is profitable being mostly an RJ hub?

Yes, after the phasedown St. Louis and Miami were the only two profitable hubs in the system. That says something about how well they did with their "tweaking" of the operation. Without a doubt, St. Louis is still profitable.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 9):
Didn't AA just have a big marketing campaign in ORD? Same as the one in NY? AA is ORD's hometown airline etc..

Im not too sure, AA isnt Chicago's hometown airline, UA is. AA is the hometown airline of Dallas-Fort Worth.
It is what it is...
 
User avatar
N328KF
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
Im not too sure, AA isnt Chicago's hometown airline, UA is. AA is the hometown airline of Dallas-Fort Worth.

I dunno, while most people (that would even give a crap) in Chicagoland know that UA is based here, it's well known that if you want to go someplace, AA, UA, and WN are all sure bets. With the other carriers, you're more likely to have some weird convoluted flight path.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
deltaflyertoo
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:14 am

Check your SFO, you have 6 on one and 7 on another but a change of zero.
 
ORDagent
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:42 am

AA did indeed have a big advertising push for the O&D market here at ORD. According to my sales rep FRA is losing money and DEL is breaking even but improving. The reason FRA is kept is that in order to get local corporate contracts they need to have FRA as it is such an important business center for Europe. She also advised me that they are absolutely wanting to get ORD to be their Asian hub. They just need to get the rights. The only other limiting factor is the lack of appropriate equipment.
 
airbusaddict
Posts: 225
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:51 am

Will Eagle ever come back to Sioux Falls with E145 or E140 service from STL and ORD? They were dropped in 2004, 1. Because ORD traffic problems, and two cuz the STL phasedown. ORD on AA was getting 85-95% load factors from FSD!!
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
mrstl
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:02 am

I think what you are starting to see in Chicago because of limted slots, equipment and UA down the terminal is a better placement of equipment and routes between hubs. If ORD-ORF is losing money on their 2x daily frequency and STL-ORF is making money it makes sense for them to route the traffic through the other smaller hub 250 miles away with the money making route. There are too many things working against AA at ORD to continue with a money losing route . The same has been done with IAD-ORD, this traffic is now routed through STL. Trust me this is working both ways as a third of my flights at STL are still routed with connections at ORD.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4456
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 17):
AA did indeed have a big advertising push for the O&D market here at ORD. According to my sales rep FRA is losing money and DEL is breaking even but improving. The reason FRA is kept is that in order to get local corporate contracts they need to have FRA as it is such an important business center for Europe. She also advised me that they are absolutely wanting to get ORD to be their Asian hub. They just need to get the rights. The only other limiting factor is the lack of appropriate equipment.

I remeber at one time AA considered upgrading ORD-FRA, but it was decided to upgrade the second DFW-LGW instead. I AA is losing money on ORD-FRA, im sure that it has to do with the stiff competition from UA and LH. From what I hear DFW-FRA is much more profitable than is ORD-FRA for AA. DFW-FRA is on a 777. I think (but im not sure) that DFW-FRA is used heavily by the military.

As for ORD-Asia, I have no doubt that it would be AA's first choice. I doubt AA would venture for more LAX-Asia. As for DFW-Asia, I think we will see more routes, but not before AA is finished adding more ORD-Asia. Ive also heard that DFW-NRT is a better preformer than is ORD-NRT for AA, but again that must have to do with the competition on ORD-NRT from UA, JL, and NH, and the lack thereof from DFW-NRT.
It is what it is...
 
ghillier
Posts: 34
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:27 am

Regarding the AA pullout on the ORD-PDX route - I was really surprised and saddened to hear about that. I have connected TUL-PDX thru ORD many times and ORD-PDX has always been full. DFW-PDX is always oversold - I wish AA would upgrade to a 757 or at least a 738 on that route.
 
davidlc3
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:30 am

RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:39 am

I saw today that AA is launching JFK MXP and BCN on May 1. Didn't they used to fly ORD MXP or am I confused?
 
FWAERJ
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Davidlc3 (Reply 22):
Didn't they used to fly ORD MXP or am I confused?

Yes, AA used to fly ORD-MXP for several years. Originally, it was year-round, and then reduced to seasonal service before being dropped altogether.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
timberwolf24
Posts: 453
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 16):
Check your SFO, you have 6 on one and 7 on another but a change of zero.

Yes my mistake, SFO remains at 6 flights 5 M80 and 1 763.


My main reason for creating this list was to see for my self if in fact AA was reducing flights at ORD and was more of a snap shot of 2 dates. What this reinforced to me is that as long as ORD is slot controlled you will not see any true growth from either AA or UA. Any new markets either carrier enters will be at the expense of other markets. True growth at ORD is still several years away and will happen once the runways are reconfigured and slots are increased or removed.

Now that I have done this I'm thinking of making a similar comparison with UA at ORD.

I'm glad so many found the list interesting  

Timberwolf

[Edited 2007-08-28 00:44:42]
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
deltaflyertoo
Posts: 1479
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 3:18 pm

RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:39 am

Oh for sure, its VERY INTERESTING. Thank you for doing this, I totally enjoyed that list....yeah a UAL one would be cool.....
 
boeing743
Posts: 338
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:51 am

What is AA going to do with those extra MD80 that are dropped from some of routes?? Will they go to DFW or STL or what??
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:05 am

Quoting Boeing743 (Reply 26):
What is AA going to do with those extra MD80 that are dropped from some of routes?? Will they go to DFW or STL or what??

If I had to ventrure a guess, they will go to DFW. ORD seems to gaining international traffic but loseing domestic traffic. DFW is still gaining domestic traffic from AA.
It is what it is...
 
HPAEAA
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Boeing743 (Reply 26):
What is AA going to do with those extra MD80 that are dropped from some of routes?? Will they go to DFW or STL or what??

my guess is they are replacing the 757s that are leaving some of the routes.. i.e. LAS...
Why do I fly???
 
PanAm747
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:36 am

As I recall from the discussions here about JetBlue, ORD is a slot-controlled airport. Logic would dictate that any route cut by AA be replaced by another simply to keep from losing that slot.

Having said that, I am assuming that the new runway construction will increase the number of flights that ORD can handle. I wonder if ORD will remain slot controlled at that point.

Quote:
My main reason for creating this list was to see for my self if in fact AA was reducing flights at ORD and was more of a snap shot of 2 dates. What this reinforced to me is that as long as ORD is slot controlled you will not see any true growth from either AA or UA. Any new markets either carrier enters will be at the expense of other markets. True growth at ORD is still several years away and will happen once the runways are reconfigured and slots are increased or removed.

 checkmark 
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
ckfred
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:32 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 3):
Looking through this, there does seem to be an overall reduction of service, mostly due to major market pullouts (such as PDX, ORF and COS) and reduction of flying in major markets like LGA, BOS, SAN and SEA for instance.

ORD-SEA is always reduced in the fall after the Alaska cruising season ends, and I noticed that JFK is gaining 2 daily MD-80s, while LGA is losing 2 MD-80s. In other words, there are still 19 mainline flights to New York City. But two of the flights will now be going to JFK.

I am curious as to why AA is dropping ORD-COS and reducing ORD-DEN for its winter schedule. One would think that flights to all Colorado cities would increase in the winter and decrease in the summer, because of skiing.

On the other hand, it is shocking to see the number of cities that are partially or fully Eagle that used to be all mainline, including ATL, ALB, BUF, DTW, PVD, DCA, TUL, HPN, YYZ, YUL, OKC, YOW, XNA, and BNA.

I also wish that AA would add a fifth roundtrip between ORD and PIT. My wife flies to PIT frequently for business, and the flights are always full. Plus, AA has no flights from PIT to ORD between 1:30 pm and 7:15 pm. That's a long stretch with no flights, when one can make a flight departing after 4:15.
 
SFOHORIZON
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 17):
AA did indeed have a big advertising push for the O&D market here at ORD. According to my sales rep FRA is losing money and DEL is breaking even but improving. The reason FRA is kept is that in order to get local corporate contracts they need to have FRA as it is such an important business center for Europe. She also advised me that they are absolutely wanting to get ORD to be their Asian hub. They just need to get the rights. The only other limiting factor is the lack of appropriate equipment.

If ORD - FRA is not making money, wouldn't conservative AA just cut it, isn't that AA's gameplan cut all routes that don't make profit, and even cut ones that make a little profit if they potentially divert resources from a route that can make more money? If its not making money, why would they keep it?

As for DEL, a flight attendant I spoke to said, there is no way they would cut it, the flight is always full...
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 30):
On the other hand, it is shocking to see the number of cities that are partially or fully Eagle that used to be all mainline, including ATL, ALB, BUF, DTW, PVD, DCA, TUL, HPN, YYZ, YUL, OKC, YOW, XNA, and BNA.

 checkmark  Indeed, this is something that stuck out to me as well. Especially the legs that are near two hours in length. It goes to show a lot has changed since the Fokkers left the fleet.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
airportplan
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 29):
Having said that, I am assuming that the new runway construction will increase the number of flights that ORD can handle. I wonder if ORD will remain slot controlled at that point.

ORD flight caps go away next year (see below). The first new runway is scheduled to open on November 8th and currently is on scheduled. American, United and other carriers that have some additional gate capacity are expected increase their schedules dramatically after the runway opening. Some carriers such as Jetblue are gate constrained and can add very few flights.

"US FAA released a final albeit interim rule finalizing slot limits at Chicago O'Hare that originally were imposed on a temporary basis in 2004.The rule takes effect Oct. 29, 2006, and terminates Oct. 31, 2008, at which point it is expected that the opening of a new runway under the O'Hare Modernization Plan will allow the airfield to accommodate more than "50,000 additional forecast operations" annually."
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 31):
If ORD - FRA is not making money, wouldn't conservative AA just cut it, isn't that AA's gameplan cut all routes that don't make profit, and even cut ones that make a little profit if they potentially divert resources from a route that can make more money? If its not making money, why would they keep it?

As for DEL, a flight attendant I spoke to said, there is no way they would cut it, the flight is always full...

ORD-FRA probably isnt one of the more profitable ORD-Europe routes, but it might be more beneficial for AA to keep it rather than let it go even if it isnt makeing much (or any) money. Im not sure why if that is the case but airlines do it all the time.

As for DEL, high loads dont always mean big profit. Airlines have cut routes that have had over 90% loads before simply because the yeilds arent there. ORD-DEL is a very long flight, and the longer the flight the more expensive it is to operate. Thats why alot of airlines struggle to make good on some ULH flights unless it is linking two markets that have a huge connection with one another. If ORD-DEL is breaking even and slightly improving, im sure thats good enough for AA. ORD-DEL isnt going anywhere.
It is what it is...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American At ORD

Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:56 pm

There were a few comments flying around A.net (literally) that AA was pulling down ORD, when in fact that rumor is completely false. ORD is a zero-sum game. In order to add flights, others have to be dropped. The same can be said for most of AA's fleet - especially the ERJ's, CR7's, 763's, & 777's. The only areas of the operation that have some slack are the Saabs & ATR-72's, along with some creative scheduling that can free up some MD-80, 738 & 757 flying in small increments.

That said, the dynamics shift in the winter, when AA adds additional frequencies into beach, cruise, & ski destinations. This is particularly noticable in a) ORD b) 757 fleet utilization

At ORD to add the ski destinations along with addition flights to Florida, some frequencies need to be reduced. Some business markets don't require as many frequencies either, particularly around the holiday period when business travel significantly drops off.

When the winter schedule begins in Dec, it pulls a number of 757's off of domestic routes and sends them to ski destinations (EGE, HDN, JAC, GUC) etc. Same thing occurs with increased flying to/from Florida & the Carribean via MIA. Some of the reduced MD-80 frequencies in ORD are redeployed on the increased frequencies and/or backfilling for 757's used to sun/ski destinations. The 757 situation is more acute this year due to the lease terminations of the former TWA 757's.


That said, AA is attempting to rely more on O&D in ORD - 1) since it can be more profitable than lower-yielding connecting traffic 2) the operational irregularity that occurs frequently at ORD - resulting a higher than average number of misconnects, lost bags, frustration, etc.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 3):
Thanks for this analysis, very interesting. However, it should be noted that a more apt comparison would probably be a year over year comparison rather than July vs December as many of the adds were seasonal adds that are added every year in December (EGE, RSW, PBI, FLL, JAC, HDN, etc).

While technically youre correct. It was the ORD-PDX pullout that started al lteh speculation that AA was going tp pull back ORD in a big way. Some were speculating that numerous markes would be dropped.



I am glad to see this analysis....good job
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 36):
I am glad to see this analysis....good job

I agree!!! If you decide to do one on UA, ill be the first to look at it!!!  Smile

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 36):
While technically youre correct. It was the ORD-PDX pullout that started al lteh speculation that AA was going tp pull back ORD in a big way. Some were speculating that numerous markes would be dropped.

Yes, I agree there was some over reaction on A.net about ORD-PDX being pulled. To be honest I think AA will continue to decrease domestic flights at ORD while at the same time increasing International flights. I think AA will try to route as much domestic connections through DFW as possible. I also think AA will increase domestic and North American flights at DFW we just might not see alot of international growth at DFW conversely.
It is what it is...
 
kstateinALB
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:50 am

Just looking at the schedule, I see no increase of service by MQ on any route here in upstate NY. None to SYR, ROC, BUF, or ALB. I expected here in the near future a service increase by one extra daily to each city, or even an upgrade to a CR7...wonder when that will take place, IMO UA is really kicking butt out here to ORD.
ALB, DTW, ORD, MDW, MCI, JFK, LGA, LHR, MAD, MSP, IAD, DCA, MCO, ATL, CVG, TUL, MHK, PHL, PIT, DFW, DAL, CLT, IND, AUS,
 
timberwolf24
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:59 am

I have started complying the list for United at ORD and should have it ready to post this weekend. Again this will only be a snap shot of 2 selected dates. I have kept both list on a spread sheet so if I decied to keep this up i can compare on going trends.

I have found that I need to get a life!!!

Again thanks for all the responce!  bigthumbsup 
Living in LA, ORD/MDW will always be home!
 
sw733
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting Timberwolf24 (Thread starter):
(I'm now living in So Cal but Chicago will ALWAYS be home,)

Well when you end up in hell, you always wish you were in heaven  Wink  duck 

Quoting N328KF (Reply 15):
I dunno, while most people (that would even give a crap) in Chicagoland know that UA is based here, it's well known that if you want to go someplace, AA, UA, and WN are all sure bets. With the other carriers, you're more likely to have some weird convoluted flight path.

Yes, but AA isn't based in Chicago, they are based in Dallas, as was previously stated...same with WN...UA is the only airline actually based in Chicago...therefore it's the hometown airline.

Quoting Airbusaddict (Reply 18):
Will Eagle ever come back to Sioux Falls with E145 or E140 service from STL and ORD?

STL I don't see...there are far more connections, both domestic and international, from ORD.

Quoting Timberwolf24 (Reply 39):
I have found that I need to get a life!!!

Probably...or a girlfriend  Wink
 
ckfred
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 32):
Quoting Ckfred (Reply 30):
On the other hand, it is shocking to see the number of cities that are partially or fully Eagle that used to be all mainline, including ATL, ALB, BUF, DTW, PVD, DCA, TUL, HPN, YYZ, YUL, OKC, YOW, XNA, and BNA.

Indeed, this is something that stuck out to me as well. Especially the legs that are near two hours in length. It goes to show a lot has changed since the Fokkers left the fleet.

A friend of mine who flies for AA says that if management knew then what it knows now, it would have kept the 717s and taken at least some of the remaining TWA order. Scheduling has been a pain, because of the lack of aircraft between the 70-seat CRJ and the 136 -seat MD-80. If AA tries to make a route all MD-80, it either has too many seats or too few flights. Putting Eagle on a route means a lot of frequency, which causes problems during bad weather, and no first-class for the elite FF.

Quoting AirportPlan (Reply 33):
ORD flight caps go away next year (see below). The first new runway is scheduled to open on November 8th and currently is on scheduled. American, United and other carriers that have some additional gate capacity are expected increase their schedules dramatically after the runway opening. Some carriers such as Jetblue are gate constrained and can add very few flights.

From what I've heard, the arrival rate only increases by 10 aircraft per hour. Until the second tower opens, the third east-west runway is supposed to act like ATL's fifth runway, allowing more operations during bad weather.

It's going to take the 2nd tower and the 4th east-west runway to truly get extra capacity at ORD.

If you take 50,000 more operations and divide by 365, that come out to just under 136 additional operations each day. With about 950,000 or so operations annually, 50,000 really isn't a huge number. It isn't insignificant, but won't allow AA or UA to add 1 extra daily flight to every current non-stop route out of ORD.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1979
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RE: American At ORD

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:58 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 41):
A friend of mine who flies for AA says that if management knew then what it knows now, it would have kept the 717s and taken at least some of the remaining TWA order. Scheduling has been a pain, because of the lack of aircraft between the 70-seat CRJ and the 136 -seat MD-80.

It's easy to see, there's definitely a big void between the CR7 and MD-80. Any thoughts on long after the 717's and F100's were gone that management came to their senses? The 717 was in production up until a year ago, so conceivably AA could have placed an order if the mistake to discard the 717's was realized soon enough.

Quoting Timberwolf24 (Reply 39):
I have started complying the list for United at ORD and should have it ready to post this weekend.

We're all looking forward to it.  bigthumbsup 
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
ORDagent
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RE: American At ORD

Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 30):
I also wish that AA would add a fifth roundtrip between ORD and PIT. My wife flies to PIT frequently for business, and the flights are always full. Plus, AA has no flights from PIT to ORD between 1:30 pm and 7:15 pm. That's a long stretch with no flights, when one can make a flight departing after 4:15.

AA isn't going to keep heavy schedules that WN is flying. They keep enough for connections to long haul flights out of ORD that they can actually make money on.

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 31):
If ORD - FRA is not making money, wouldn't conservative AA just cut it,

Re-read my post. CORPORATE CONTRACTS. They can't afford to lose large corporate agreements as they are just about a guaranteed level of booking on higher short advance booking by business travelers. They would lose MORE money without these contracts than keeping one money losing flight.
 
airportplan
Posts: 319
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RE: American At ORD

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 41):
From what I've heard, the arrival rate only increases by 10 aircraft per hour. Until the second tower opens, the third east-west runway is supposed to act like ATL's fifth runway, allowing more operations during bad weather.

Yes. When 9L-27R opens in November of 2008 its primary purpose will be to reduce delays. But with the cap removal airlines will be allowed to schedule unlimited number of flights unless delays increase and the FAA decides to implment new restrictions.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 41):
It's going to take the 2nd tower and the 4th east-west runway to truly get extra capacity at ORD.

The 2nd control tower is schedule to open next summer, several months before the new runway opens.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 41):
If you take 50,000 more operations and divide by 365, that come out to just under 136 additional operations each day. With about 950,000 or so operations annually, 50,000 really isn't a huge number. It isn't insignificant, but won't allow AA or UA to add 1 extra daily flight to every current non-stop route out of ORD.

50,000 additional operations is a big deal. It will mostly like allow ORD to become the first airport in history to have more than a million operations per year. If you do more math and assume that each of those new operations have at least 100 passengers on board that is 5 Million more passengers per year passing through the airport or a couple of million more passengers for AA and UA.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: American At ORD

Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:25 am

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 2):
ORD - It's their main international gateway.

Would call it their primary longhaul gateway, yes...

...but MIA is a far busier international operation for AA in terms of number of flights and destinations offered, than ORD.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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