JoKeR
Topic Author
Posts: 1769
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:34 pm

SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:38 am

It appears that SAA is still in serious trouble - according to an article below, the airline apparently posted a loss of Rand 883 billion! (which I find unbelievable - that's almost 90 billion Euro! - surely this is a mistake)

The airline posted a loss of R883bn, and the chairperson said: "Painful initiatives will be required to turn the carrier around financially, and hence the board does not expect SAA to produce profits in the coming financial year."

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/defa...x?Nav=ns&ArticleID=1518-24_2172311
 
boswashsprstar
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:21 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:57 am

I think the 883 number is incorrect. Not even SAA can make a loss of 883bn on an operating income (as stated in the same article) of 20.6bn. Maybe 883 million rand?
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:47 am

that sounds outside the realm of possibility to me unless someone was hiding losses.... forever and it just came out.

883 million sounds possible. SAA isn't big enough to lose that kind of money, 115 billion USD......
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
AF022
Posts: 1675
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:05 am

is saa still working with seabury? are they making any progress or just spinning wheels?
 
cygnuschicago
Posts: 518
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
SAA isn't big enough to lose that kind of money, 115 billion USD......

Yea, the GDP of SA is only ~$590 billion, so that would be about 20% of GDP, so probably millions.

Since SAA is largely government owned, and doesn't mind employing the predatory pricing practices of olde (directly, or through "mango"), it's unlikely we'll see them turn around in the near-term. That said, when it comes to service, few airlines can match them. So, as long as the good people of South Africa are willing to continue subsidizing "their" airline, I'll be taking advantage of it  Smile
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:33 am

It appears that steps are being taken to reduce the losses, as reported today. I really hope that SAA gets out of its mess soon:

Significant savings after the renegotiation of certain contracts have been projected. The contracts include:

* Ground handling contracts with Dakar operation service provider, Senegal Handling Service, and baggage services provider at O.R Tambo, Optima

* The contract between SAA and its telephony service provider, Transtel will result in a substantial saving over the next two years

* Turnaround ground handling rates have been reduced for SAA's operations in Hong Kong

* An agreement has been reached between SAA and the Hong Kong Airports Authority to move from Terminal 1 to 2 for departures

* Renegotiation of the contract with warehouse and logistics service provider, Kintetsu World Express, which is responsible for the distribution of board items.


The process of reviewing contracts is ongoing and SAA is working hard at finding new and innovative ways of reducing costs, while also growing revenue, over the next 18 months, the airline said on Thursday.

SAA said: "Progress has also been made with other restructuring initiatives aimed at restoring SAA to profitability in order to ensure that we continue to deliver value to our consumers as a full service airline.

"General Managers in each unit were tasked with implementing restructuring initiatives in May after the SAA Board approved the business plan, and this is now in full swing.

"The process of grounding the costly 747-400s is well under way, with two of six aircraft having left the fleet. The rest will be grounded in the following months.

"The review of the route network has led to the planned opening of a new route to Libreville, which will begin on 19 September. Our route to Munich, which was launched in July, is doing very well with load factors exceeding 75%.

"Our commitment to reducing the management headcount spend by 30% is on track. The rationalisation of the first and second level management has been completed and we are now in consultation with the third and final level. This should be completed within the next four to six weeks."

Full story: http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/defa...x?Nav=ns&ArticleID=1518-24_2174381
 
jfk777
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:27 am

Blame it all on the 744 and Coleman Andrews is the motto at SAA. Could it be the people who ordered the A340 are wrong ? Air Canada dumped their A340's for 777 and many others are wishing they had the efficieny of 3 egines not four. SAA needs to stop flying to every Star alliance city 15 hours away, and fly only north to Europe forget the USA and ASia
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 6):
SAA needs to stop flying to every Star alliance city 15 hours away, and fly only north to Europe forget the USA and ASia

They need to fly to O&D markets that will provide a good yield, whether that turns out to HKG, IAD, or something absurd like GUM or KEF. If they make the yields, it doesn't matter where they fly.
 
SA7700
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 6):
SAA needs to stop flying to every Star alliance city 15 hours away, and fly only north to Europe forget the USA and ASia

So in effect you are suggesting they also dump their lucrative JNB-GRU-JNB route, on top of JFK, IAD and HKG, and concentrate on Europe? Yes, that would be the way to go, dump routes like IAD and JFK where the premium cabins, with ± $8500 r/t J-class paying passengers, almost never leave empty.  Wink From what I have read on this forum, Delta is not doing too shabby on their ATL-JNB-ATL route, so why should SA leave the States to Delta? With regards to HKG - despite O&D passengers, there are also connecting passengers going on to e.g. GRU and other regional and international destinations, many of them in the premium cabin. That is revenue that you do not turn your back on; otherwise carriers like EK swoop in and poach them.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
jfk777
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 8):
So in effect you are suggesting they also dump their lucrative JNB-GRU-JNB route, on top of JFK, IAD and HKG, and concentrate on Europe? Yes, that would be the way to go, dump routes like IAD and JFK where the premium cabins, with ± $8500 r/t J-class paying passengers, almost never leave empty.

I know SAA charges $8000 for BIZ Class to South Africa from the USA but with only so many A340's and the decision to dump the 744 for the important LHR route. SAA can only be storng to so many detinations TODAY, Europe seems the logical place to concentrate on. I would love to see SAA fly ot MIA again, one of the worst decisions made was to leave Miami. The USA is a market for SAA to own since for 20 years no US airline flew there, to Asia Cathay, Singapore, Thai and Malaysia are better. Do you compete where you are strong or get chopped up and compete on price, for the same price I fly Virgin or Cathay.
 
sw733
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 6):
SAA needs to stop flying to every Star alliance city 15 hours away, and fly only north to Europe forget the USA and ASia

I think SAA needs to keep one route to the USA at least, or else there is no way to get from North America to Southern Africa on Star Alliance except through Europe (or South America which isn't too fun, but it's ok). IAD is the perfect spot because of SA)">UA. They should keep JFK because that plane is always full when I have been on it, but ORD is a total waste I think...lots of the places you can get to on SA)">UA from ORD you can get from IAD, except for some small Midwestern cities.

They do need to keep GRU...I've heard they make a ton on that one, and my experience on the flight reflects it.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Europe seems the logical place to concentrate on

I agree - Europe should be a concentration, but not the only place. They need to fly to more than just Africa and Europe...Even my rinky dinky love Air Namibia flies to Europe and Africa...SA needs to be much bigger than SW or they're missing markets.
 
The Coachman
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 10):
They should keep JFK because that plane is always full when I have been on it,

Great reason to keep flying the route...
M88, 722, 732, 733, 734, 73G, 73H, 742, 743, 744, 752, 762, 763, 772, 773, 77W, 320, 332, 333, 345, 388, DH8, SF3 - want
 
sw733
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting The Coachman (Reply 11):
Great reason to keep flying the route...

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I assumed you'd take that with the previous statement by SA7700 that JFK was a money maker.

[Edited 2007-08-31 18:29:03]
 
SA7700
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Europe seems the logical place to concentrate on



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 9):
Do you compete where you are strong or get chopped up and compete on price, for the same price I fly Virgin or Cathay.

Why then should they concentrate on Europe? The plug is about to be pulled on CDG - AF is butchering SA with double dailies between CDG and JNB. To and from the UK; SA has direct competition from BA (double dailies to JNB and during the South African summer, also double dailies to CPT), VS (dailies to JNB, plus dailies to CPT during the summer). In addition, don't forget about CE flying between JNB-LGW-JNB.

From continental Europe, South Africa is served by KL, AF, LH, LX, OA and IB. Last but not least; don't forget about the Middle Eastern carriers like EK (double dailies), EY and QR; that BTW have some of the best fares between South Africa and Europe / Australasia. It should be interesting to see what happens to airfares once EK start their services to-and from South Africa with the A380…

Strong route market share = high yields. There is no sense in flying to half a dozen cities in Europe with poor yields – IMO it is unsustainable.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:58 am

Could I suggest that most of SAA's losses come from the incredibly competitive domestic market? Maybe SAA should look at ending domestic flights and codesharing with and existing carrier like Nations Air or One TIme or whatever.
 
JoKeR
Topic Author
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 14):
Maybe SAA should look at ending domestic flights and codesharing with and existing carrier like Nations Air or One TIme or whatever.

Dude, no disrespect to you, but this is the dumbest comment I've read in a while... or whatever!

PS. Its Nationwide Air Big grin
 
ZuluTime
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:59 am

The problem is half down to aircraft utilisation. The schedules on South Africa need so many overnight flights that SAA has lots of aircraft sitting on the ground during the day in London, JFK, Frankfurt, Washington, Munich, Hong Kong - just about everywhere they fly to. They probably couldn't move the Heathrow slots so they are stuck with this problem in Heathrow, but pretty much everywhere else ought to be practical to move to a mix of daylight and overnights.

If you look at JFK then their current schedule is JNB 1920 - 0655 JFK 1720 - 1730 JNB. Why not turn the aircraft round ex JFK at 1000 and have it landing in JNB at 1010 the next day? The aircraft could then operate that day's GRU, BOM or PER flights. Follow that example through the whole fleet and I guess they could cut five or six long-haul aircraft (maybe all of the 343s) out of their fleet. That's $100m a year saved already.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 16):
If you look at JFK then their current schedule is JNB 1920 - 0655 JFK 1720 - 1730 JNB. Why not turn the aircraft round ex JFK at 1000 and have it landing in JNB at 1010 the next day? The aircraft could then operate that day's GRU, BOM or PER flights. Follow that example through the whole fleet and I guess they could cut five or six long-haul aircraft (maybe all of the 343s) out of their fleet. That's $100m a year saved already.

You know that is a very good point there, but there is another probably associated with it. Premium traffic. Qantas flights to Asia from Australia do exactly what you are suggesting here... just on the ground and turn around, and the reason it works is most of the Asian carriers do the same thing. But if you look at similar flights from North to South America, American Airlines has heaps of 777s and 763s sitting on the ground at places like EZE all day... for the exact same reason SA do. The question is, will the premium traffic switch to the competing airline instead in order to gain red-eye flights? For business people it seems to be a preference if they're in a good quality business class... it enables them to work a full day... get on the plane that evening, sleep and wake up at their destination. This trend is also extending to wealthy leisure travelers, due to the fact that in this modern world, most of the people who can afford to pay for business class airfares also tend to be extremely busy people and can't take much time off work.... so the ability to take red-eye flights enables them to squeeze that bit more into their vacation instead of loosing a day traveling to and a day traveling from.

If SAA wants to make more money, they could start buy sending an A346 to Sydney in their own right... and then on alternate days fly one to Melbourne and Brisbane. The prices of Economy tickets between Australia and South Africa on SAA or Qantas is absurd! more then europe or the america for SAA... and usually booked out. It forces many passengers to go via SIN, BKK, KUL and even DXB!!!!! Definately room for some more seats here... I'm hoping that Air New Zealand wake up and start some of the services.
 
sw733
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 17):
more then europe or the america

Is that like "South Africa and The Iraq"?
 
Reggaebird
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:15 am

Preface: The comments I am about to share are my opinion. I am in no way trying to start the typical type of argument that occurs when one mentions something possibly negative about one aircraft manufacturerer's product.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

What no one has mentioned is the cost of switching to those Airbus aircraft!

SAA decided to buy/lease all of those four-engined Airbus widebodies and replace their very young Boeing 737-800s for two reasons. 1) the culturally engrained (and mistaken) belief that four-engined aircraft are safer than two-engined aircraft for long-haul flights and 2) the fact that after Coleman Andrews left, there was a serious backlash against everyone and everything that had his stamp of approval (the 737-800 deal, the 3-class 747-400, the plan to acquire B777s).

IMHO, SAA is starting to pay the price for their irrational fleet decisions. They may have cutoff their nose to spite their face. For example, SAA needs a good first-class product to attract uber-premium passenger revenue that is being stolen by the likes of Emirates, Singapore and Lufthansa. They are progressively discontinuing that product with the retirement of the "inefficient" 747-400s. As for those 747s, they were some of the earliest birds out there and most of them use Rolls engines, which are notorious for being the least efficient, least powerful, most polluting and most noisy engines for this aircraft. Indeed, Cathay has been warned by some airports that their Rolls-powered 744s may face restrictions for some of those same reasons. With regard to the 737-800s, the fleet that was praised for it's rugged reliability and "rightness" for the varied SAA African network suddenly became "bad performers" when Coleman left. SAA had disposed of the Airbus A320s that they had experimented with in the '90s mostly for performance reasons (poor hot and high ops, reliability issues) and then suddenly, after Coleman left, they became the preferred solution.

Anyway, my suggestion is that SAA ditch all of those long-haul four-holers (Boeings and Airbus') and lease some widebody twins (A330s or 777s). Longer term, they should select 10-14 of the new uber-twins (A350-900 or 787-8) for 2015 delivery. This would give them the ability to serve the long thin routes that they need to cover. For the heavier routes that also require the first class cabins, they could order 6 "bigger brothers" (777-300ER, A350-1000 or 787-10). For shorthaul, they can hang on to the A320s through 2017-18 and then order one of the manufacturerers' narrowbody replacements.

Again, these are my opinions. My statements about SAA's business decisions and practices are compiled from readings about SAA over the years (including in-country reading). I cannot provide a bibliography or footnotes for all of the articles so don't start asking me for proof. Go look stuff up for yourself if you're interested.

Thanks for reading.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 18):

Is that like "South Africa and The Iraq"?

You obviously saw Miss South Carolina?
 
Lufthansa
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 19):
for those 747s, they were some of the earliest birds out there and most of them use Rolls engines, which are notorious for being the least efficient, least powerful, most polluting and most noisy engines for this aircraft.

Not entirely true. When the 744 first came out, compared to the early PW and GE engines, the RR engine was the highest thrust, at 58,000lbs where as PW and GE where 2 thousand pounds less. The RR engine was also heavier. It was selected by Qantas because the RR engine was more fuel efficient. It came down to weight restrictions vs fuel restrictions. NZ and CX would have faced similar circumstances, and no doubt so did SAA. So basically it came down to getting more distance out of the fuel (ie - range with full fuel tanks), oh having to restrict your fuel upload due to weight (where the ligher GE and PW engines would help). Since that point, both PW and GE have upgraded their initial version of the engines and upgrade kits were offered to airlines that helped smooth these differences out, and GE even now offer a much higher thrust version of the engine. RR also has supplied trent technology upgrades, but, PW and GE caught up.

I would find it hard to believe that when airlines like Cathay and Qantas were actively upgrading their RR engines, SA didn't bother. Though this is SA after all.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 19):

Anyway, my suggestion is that SAA ditch all of those long-haul four-holers (Boeings and Airbus') and lease some widebody twins (A330s or 777s).

And what about the cost of changing types YET AGAIN! the 744 is still the lowest cost per seat mile aircraft in service today... yes thats right, even lower then the 773ER, and thats largely due to a larger capacity, especially if you need to lift cargo. One of the reasons it remains so popular with asian carriers. It is still king at SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, TG, MH... shall i go on? If you can fill it (and that is they key, you need to fill it, otherwise the 773 and even a346 become better options) you'll make more profit still from the 744, despite the increase in maintenance. The effect of fuel burn due to 4 engines on 12 hr flights is often grossly overstated on this forum. On medium range flights, the A330-300 does so well simply because its a lighter aircraft!!!! Hence NW etc ... its perfect for Trans-Atlantic. That doesn't necessarily make it a great aircraft for 12 hr + flights... weight and cargo restrictions etc... you could make more money with the higher weights uplifted by the 340-300 on these type of flights. It's a big trade off...and nowhere near as simple as 2 engines vs 4 engines. It may very well be 2 aircraft types vs 1 aircraft type that make certain twins, like the 777 attractive, because a 330 certainly will make more profit on a flight like Sydney-Hong kong or MSP-AMS.
 
sw733
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
It is still king at SQ, CX, BA, QF, JL, TG, MH... shall i go on?

Yeah, I do think you can add SA to that list. The 747-400 is king at SA even still...it's their face...people know them as SA of 10 years ago, spitting the huge 747-400 out to North America and Europe. Sure, there are three times as many A340's in the fleet, but a lot of people still see the 747-400 as the face of SA. And that thing can carry an impressive amount of cargo, especially up to Europe where the distance to cover isn't as great as, say, JFK/IAD.

I sure wish they weren't leaving...or at least that SW would take two to replace the A340s!

[Edited 2007-09-01 05:05:18]
 
Reggaebird
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 22):
I sure wish they weren't leaving...or at least that SW would take two to replace the A340s!

SW had a 747-400M and didn't know what to do with it! The need to keep that A340. Now if Kenya Airways or Ethiopian would take those 744s and do something special with them, they could give SAA a run for the money on the intercontinental runs.
 
sw733
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 23):
SW had a 747-400M and didn't know what to do with it! The need to keep that A340

Yeah I know but...it looked damn good!!!  Smile The A340's are great for SW, they need them indeed.
 
Reggaebird
Posts: 886
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 7:43 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 24):
Yeah I know but...it looked damn good!!! The A340's are great for SW, they need them indeed.

Yeah, I remeber seeing that Air Namibia 744 at Frankfurt when I would pass through there. I couldn't get enough of that. I even liked the interim MD-11. All very nice indeed. Now, I see the Air Namibia A340 at London Gatwick all the time. It doesn't hold the same interest for me though. It doesn't look nearly as regal as the jumbo.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:27 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 15):
Dude, no disrespect to you, but this is the dumbest comment I've read in a while... or whatever!

So you think South African makes money on shorthaul? It seems to me there are too many airlines flying domestically in SA.

Perhaps you shoulld tell me why it is such a dumb comment. Obviously from Serbia youre in a psoition to know all whenit comes to South Afican aviation
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:36 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 26):
So you think South African makes money on shorthaul? It seems to me there are too many airlines flying domestically in SA.

I doubt that they'd be making a single cent more if they were to drop domestic flights... it might be worth trying to put domestic flights into a separate company (i.e. SA Express), but dropping them alltogether? How many airlines have gone down that route and succeeded?

The fact that SAA offers so many connections within South Africa and Southern Africa is one of their selling points - drop those and they're just another airline flying to South Africa.

And do keep in mind how many foreign carriers use SAA's services to connect from their own longhauls to South Africa.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 26):
Perhaps you shoulld tell me why it is such a dumb comment. Obviously from Serbia youre in a psoition to know all whenit comes to South Afican aviation

Don't mistake a flag for knowledge - JoKeR might have a Serbian flag flying next to his name, but that by no means says anything about his knowledge about Africa or African aviation; the fact that you have a US flag next to your name gives you no more credibility than the Serbian flag gives (or, in your opinion, takes) JoKeR. The flags are meaningless - after all, a lot of people around here still think (and in some cases even insist) that I'm German, while I just live here and have selected the flag because of that.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
bullpitt
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:09 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:36 pm

Hi all

Does any of our South African friends know how the route to Perth is doing. I'm hoping to non Rev from MAD-JNB-PER-ADL next June-July. I really would love to try out SAA as I've never flown them before.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19304
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 16):
If you look at JFK then their current schedule is JNB 1920 - 0655 JFK 1720 - 1730 JNB. Why not turn the aircraft round ex JFK at 1000 and have it landing in JNB at 1010 the next day?

A 1000 departure from JFK would result in very poor or non-existent connections.
 
Umhlanga
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:27 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
A 1000 departure from JFK would result in very poor or non-existent connections.

Not at all. Assuming that the JFK-DKR-JNB flying time remains unchanged (~17 hours total flying time), a 10h00 departure from JFK means the flight would arrive in JNB at approximately 09h00. There are plenty of onward connections from JNB at that hour.

In fact, a more likely problem with a ~09h00 arrival in JNB is that the arrival halls are crowded with passengers from several international flights, creating slow queues at passport control and customs. But onward connections are not a problem at that hour.


Best regards,
Umhlanga
 
birdbrainz
Posts: 426
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:57 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 13):
Strong route market share = high yields. There is no sense in flying to half a dozen cities in Europe with poor yields – IMO it is unsustainable.

I agree. SAA has got to find a way to not let their planes sit at European cities. It seems to me that SA)">ZA to Europe is already a blood bath, and EK is about to make that a lot worse.

Maybe SAA needs to use older cheaper planes (much like the cargo operators.) That way, the fixed depreciation costs of letting a plane sit are low enough to offset the extra fuel burn and maintenance.

I still think that KL's approach of flying during the day one direction is the best solution.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
A 1000 departure from JFK would result in very poor or non-existent connections.

It would mean super connections at JNB. As for JFK, you'd be forcing east coasters to catch 6:30 am flights to get to JFK, and west coasters to fly all night. There's one advantage to this: red eyes and early flights are less likely to get screwed up in and out of JFK. It's funny. SA tried this at ATL, and it was miserable for west coasters, but probably good for east coasters.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
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Zkpilot
Posts: 3804
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RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 19):
As for those 747s, they were some of the earliest birds out there and most of them use Rolls engines, which are notorious for being the least efficient, least powerful, most polluting and most noisy engines for this aircraft.



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 21):
Not entirely true. When the 744 first came out, compared to the early PW and GE engines, the RR engine was the highest thrust, at 58,000lbs where as PW and GE where 2 thousand pounds less. The RR engine was also heavier. It was selected by Qantas because the RR engine was more fuel efficient. It came down to weight restrictions vs fuel restrictions. NZ and CX would have faced similar circumstances, and no doubt so did SAA. So basically it came down to getting more distance out of the fuel (ie - range with full fuel tanks), oh having to restrict your fuel upload due to weight (where the ligher GE and PW engines would help). Since that point, both PW and GE have upgraded their initial version of the engines and upgrade kits were offered to airlines that helped smooth these differences out, and GE even now offer a much higher thrust version of the engine. RR also has supplied trent technology upgrades, but, PW and GE caught up.

I would find it hard to believe that when airlines like Cathay and Qantas were actively upgrading their RR engines, SA didn't bother. Though this is SA after all.

 checkmark  The initial RR engines were definantly better than the competing GE, PW holes.
Off topic, but the 744 definantly looks sexier with RR engines on it with its smooth lines!
But as mentioned, GE in particular improved their engines and QF (which was a RR operator ordered GE for its 744ER and gained 3 ex MH? GE744)
57 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
787kq
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 13):
Why then should they concentrate on Europe? The plug is about to be pulled on CDG - AF is butchering SA with double dailies between CDG and JNB. To and from the UK; SA has direct competition from BA (double dailies to JNB and during the South African summer, also double dailies to CPT), VS (dailies to JNB, plus dailies to CPT during the summer). In addition, don't forget about CE flying between JNB-LGW-JNB.



Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 31):
I agree. SAA has got to find a way to not let their planes sit at European cities. It seems to me that SA)">ZA to Europe is already a blood bath, and EK is about to make that a lot worse.

Yes, they do need to find a way to utilize those planes, no matter the conventional wisdom is about keeping the plane on the ground all day waiting for premium traffic. I recently suffered trying to get biz seat on SAA from IAD to JNB, which didn't clear until right before the flight. Because I had an onward connection from JNB, I needed to arrive during the day. I was surprised that I couldn't find any SAA cities in Europe with double daily. The only other option was going through Paris. If SAA had double daily to FRA, it might get them the connecting traffic coming overnight from the US and Canada, without having that 12 hour wait for the night flights.
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 31):
I still think that KL's approach of flying during the day one direction is the best solution.

You will always have the problem of loosing connecting passengers at either end of the route, with SA anyway. Personally there is no incentive for me to fly to-or from the USA on KL via AMS, due to the fact that I want a domestic connection when I arrive back in South Africa. KL’s flights arrive in JNB and CPT after 20h00. Appealing as it may sound to some people, on KL it means that I have to spend a night in either CPT or JNB before I can get a domestic connection the following day.

Most of the time I feel like a dog after a longhaul flight and want to get home in order to sleep in my own bed. For that “privilege” I am prepared to pay a premium and I am relatively confident that there will be an airline (e.g. SA) that will cater for such passengers. IIRC SA previously tried daytime LHR flights, which simply did not work.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
jfk777
Posts: 6060
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:20 pm

When SAA operated from the AA terminal at JFK in the 1990's it did for a few years have a late morning departure of the 744 back to J'berg. When they changed the alliance to Delta(with the move from Miami to Atlanta) they moved the departure back to 5:00pm for the better connections from Delta. It seems later is better then in the morning since it alos gives business people a good chunk of the day in New York.
 
Stickers
Posts: 75
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:10 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:02 am

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/defa...x?Nav=ns&ArticleID=1518-24_2177765

Interesting add on to the discussion of SAA's woes. Thats a lot of staff to retrench.

 worried 
 
787kq
Posts: 378
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:15 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 34):
IIRC SA previously tried daytime LHR flights, which simply did not work.

I am not surprised that LHR didn't work since SAA didn't have an alliance there to provide connecting traffic. Double daily from FRA their large Star partner seems the best option. In addition to the O&D, to provides a reasonable option for all of Europe and from flights connecting from the US and Canada. As I noted before, the big problem with SAA's current flights to the US is that they are all solidly booked in biz and even in economy. Also, given poor connections to African countries, you often have no choice but to go through JNB. With most miles in Star, if the current SAA flights from the US are booked, a day flight from FRA provides the next best option to getting to JNB, especially when you have a tight schedule. This works for Air France, and could work for SAA if they utilized their Star Partners well, but a daylight flight only makes sense with at a strong partner hub.
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 27):
doubt that they'd be making a single cent more if they were to drop domestic flights... it might be worth trying to put domestic flights into a separate company (i.e. SA Express), but dropping them alltogether? How many airlines have gone down that route and succeeded?

If SAA is losing tons on doesmtic flights, they still need a presence, that is why I suggested codesharing with an existing carrier. This also takes care of the capacity problem in the doestic market.
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 37):
I am not surprised that LHR didn't work since SAA didn't have an alliance there to provide connecting traffic.

SA has had a codeshare agreement with BD since February 1999, providing feed from UK domestic destinations, as well as continental Europe. This cannot be ignored.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19304
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Umhlanga (Reply 30):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
A 1000 departure from JFK would result in very poor or non-existent connections.

Not at all. Assuming that the JFK-DKR-JNB flying time remains unchanged (~17 hours total flying time), a 10h00 departure from JFK means the flight would arrive in JNB at approximately 09h00. There are plenty of onward connections from JNB at that hour.

I should have clarified that I was only referring to connections at JFK. Obviously connections would not be a problem at JNB. But as a later posting mentioned, at JFK you would be limited to points quite close to JFK and very early morning flights to arrive at JFK to permit enough connecting time to change terminals, security checks etc. You'd have to get up in the middle of the night to catch flights departing at 0600/0630 etc. Only other connections would be redeyes from the west coast, and those passengers would probably prefer to connect in Europe.

[Edited 2007-09-06 03:23:36]
 
jfk777
Posts: 6060
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:39 am

I wonder if Star was the right alliance fro SAA. Given SAA bigs routes are to English speaking places; India, Australia, Hong Kong, The USA, The UK and Germany, ONEWORLD would have been better for SAA's geogaphic reach. If SAA was in a code share with BA, AA, Cathay & Qantas it would have all its competitors as "friends". The old saying about keeping friends close and enemies closer.
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 41):
If SAA was in a code share with BA, AA, Cathay & Qantas it would have all its competitors as "friends".

Which I am sure the South African Competition Commission would have had something to say about (South Africa - LHR comes to mind). Also take into account that BA was already in a franchise agreement with Comair South Africa from 1996 and today announced the renewal of its license agreement.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 41):
Given SAA bigs routes are to English speaking places; India, Australia, Hong Kong, The USA, The UK and Germany,

Germany is actually not usually listed as an "English speaking" place...  Wink ... and Hong Kong is also not really completely English speaking either (and does SAA even fly there at the moment?).

And don't forget about GRU - said to be quite profitable, and also not English speaking.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 41):
If SAA was in a code share with BA, AA, Cathay & Qantas it would have all its competitors as "friends". The old saying about keeping friends close and enemies closer.

Having Lufthansa as a friend isn't considered all that bad in the industry either, and while I avoid flying them like the plague, Singapore Airlines is also not really listed amongst the worst airlines to have on your side. Neither are ANA, Air New Zealand or Thai, or Swiss. No doubt, SAA wouldn't be much worse off (if at all) had they opted for Oneworld - but would they be much better off? I think not.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: SAA Troubles Continue, Record Losses Announced

Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 43):
and does SAA even fly there at the moment?).

Yes they do. SA still have daily services to-and from HKG.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)

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