flyf15
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Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:56 am

 
KingAir200
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:05 am

Interesting vid. I can't wait to read the responses from those on A.net who have a fetish for NWA's management.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:18 am

I applied for a job with NWA at the end of this July in PHX. Never got a thank you letter, never heard back from them. Good Riddance! NWA is really showing its B.S. after all. I'm not very thrilled on how the NWA recruiter treated me.

The recruiter was really rude to the applicants. The applicants were filling out their applications (Fill-in-the-bubble type) while the recruiter was in the same room, yelling into her cell phone in an angry tone. She really turned me off and I just went with the flow. Some people just got up and left, looking terrifed by the interviewer. So I went ahead and interviewed with her and she was nice to me for the most part, no problems at all. She did say she would get back to me in 10 days after the date of the interview. I was thinking in the back of my mind "I bet you tell everybody the same thing!" and I still have not heard back from NWA.

Very rude people, I tell ya! If NWA wants to have a good image, things have got to change starting with the folks up on top, including the HR folks as well!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
paladin87
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
The recruiter was really rude to the applicants

Were you going for a Flight Attendants job?  laughing 
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting Paladin87 (Reply 3):

I can't be a FA. Im uhhh deaf.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
LHboyatDTW
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
The recruiter was really rude to the applicants.

It was one of the Witches of Gatwick  duck 

though interesting video. A family friend of mine works for CO and it's interesting hearing things like this from his perspective.
The air in the clouds is very pure and fine, bracing and delicious because it's the same the angels breathe.
 
Go3Team
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
I can't be a FA. Im uhhh deaf.

Ramp?, and if so, do you still have to wear ear protection?
Yay Pudding!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 6):
Ramp?, and if so, do you still have to wear ear protection?

I do. It doesn't matter if one is deaf or not, you still have to wear it. I wear the regular ear inserts plus the muffs. And yes, ramp....temporary and part-time. They need ALOT of help in PHX.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
bok269
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:10 am

Really shows how greed can get to some people. Delta employees and customers should be greatful Mr. Grinstein was in command as they exited bankruptcy.

On a side note, does F/A pay really top out in the mid 30's?
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
baron95
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:29 am

Typical class warfare and socialist message from Bill Moyers.

If NW's employees could find a better job at another employer they'd leave in a second. The fact that they don't while complainigni about the company is just proof that they are still over paid for their skills.

It is amazing to hear them talk. If it were not for the CEO stock options we could have health care benefits that we didn't have t opay anything for. If it were not for the CEO stock options we coud fully fund our pension plan for a year.

When will the unions wake up? Most workers in this country don't have pensions. Most pay something for health care coverage. These people will drag down GM and Ford and NW kicking and screaming while they try to hang on by their fingernails to a reality that does not exist any more.

I bet that most NW's FA would have a tough time getting a job at Mc Donald's with their attitude. And I can hear a NW pilot interviewing for NetJets or a corporate flight department... What you mean, all I get is a 401K? What about the pension? When can I retire? What if I don't want to "bid" for a trip? What do you mean only 2 weeks vacation? Is that per uarter? What? I don't get free flight rights anymore?

It is so sad when the world changes and some people just get stuck in the past forever.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
burnsie28
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
I applied for a job with NWA at the end of this July in PHX. Never got a thank you letter, never heard back from them. Good Riddance! NWA is really showing its B.S. after all

Just like all the other airlines, like UA, US, HP and such didn't do the same thing when I applied there.


Finally this is old, since it doesn't go back to the new pilot agreement that started at the beginning of August.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
If NW's employees could find a better job at another employer they'd leave in a second. The fact that they don't while complainigni about the company is just proof that they are still over paid for their skills.

One of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this board.

Many airline employees can find better jobs outside of aviation, but choose to stay because of their passion for the airlines. I've met pilots who have left jobs as stock brokers to fly, flight attendants who were making two to three times their current pay at their past jobs, and customer service agents with advanced degrees in finance and engineering. The fact that they don't quit does not prove that they are overpaid. Rather it proves that they are passionate about aviation and loyal to their company, even in the face of incompetence and greed in the executive offices.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
bok269
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):

One of the dumbest statements I've ever read on this board.

Many airline employees can find better jobs outside of aviation, but choose to stay because of their passion for the airlines. I've met pilots who have left jobs as stock brokers to fly, flight attendants who were making two to three times their current pay at their past jobs, and customer service agents with advanced degrees in finance and engineering. The fact that they don't quit does not prove that they are overpaid. Rather it proves that they are passionate about aviation and loyal to their company, even in the face of incompetence and greed in the executive offices.

 checkmark 

To add on, the pilots can't really leave and fly elsewhere because they would end up at the bottom of the seniority list, making 30k a year in the right seat sitting reserve, after building up decades of seniority at NW. While the pay may not be great, it is the best they can do in their position.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
sacamojus
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:36 am

Unfortunately this is capatilism at its finest. The people who made these decisions to pay the CEO these huge sums of money was none other than the BOD which is their to look out for owners. Don't get me wrong, as someone who took a 50% paycut to switch jobs I know that losing money isn't easy. Managers are only paying market wages and benefits and only an increase in demand or a decrease in supply will make things better. Good luck to all airline employees especially the ones at DL because they are the best!
 
charlienorth
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
Very rude people, I tell ya! If NWA wants to have a good image, things have got to change starting with the folks up on top, including the HR folks as well!

You can do better!

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
If NW's employees could find a better job at another employer they'd leave in a second. The fact that they don't while complainigni about the company is just proof that they are still over paid for their skills.

No one wants to start at the bottom and how does this show they are overpaid? How much lower can pay go before you are happy?

Has anyone noticed Steenland's face resembles a dog's butt?
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
socalfive
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
It is so sad when the world changes and some people just get stuck in the past forever.

Yes things are changing, there's no question, but you have no touch on reality yourself. Cuts can be a necessary evil but the bottom line is how fairly treated the front line employees are which at Northwest is like Crap. American avoided BK and stayed solvent and treat employees exactly the same as they always have, not great, not terrible. Continental avoided BK and stayed solvent and treat their employees as their most important asset - which of course they are, Southwest never came close to BK and has always treated their employees as its greatest asset. Airtran has, JetBlue has, I can go on and on. BAD management, egos and complacency put these companies in BK in the first place, not market forces, and with the single exception of Delta, management including the boards of directors stole the Booty from those that make it all work. So, when it comes to bad attitudes? Good, these people deserve to have bad attitudes and as that single factor costs Northwest market share, they'll find themselves back in BK, probably before these joker's four years are up.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting Charlienorth (Reply 14):
You can do better!

Thanks. If NWA offers me the job anytime soon, I'm going to turn it down based on what I went through in July. That's a big no-no on the recruiter's part.  no 

If you want to be competitive, treat others how you want to be treated.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
UAL-Fan
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:27 am

Flew them on Monday, SAN - PHL via Detroit. The 757 really showed it's age big time. Didn't even have the expanded Overhead bins. No I.F.E. and a nasty flight crew. There were two female flight attendants that just looked haggard and miserable. They were not happy and they made sure the passengers knew it.

How do they compete at all on domestic routes with such terrible inflight service? Almost everyone else is upgrading service with PTV's, etc. but NWA doesn't seem to do anything.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Go3Team (Reply 6):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
I can't be a FA. Im uhhh deaf.

Ramp?, and if so, do you still have to wear ear protection?

That was just assinie go3Team, why even bother, I wish we had disrepect lists for comments like that...

In regards to the post, I don't blame the Mgmt, the video is wrong, US emerged when it Doug Parker's HP and investor Bought US from CH11... the and the reality of the matter is that if you earn 110 K per year or more in a 2 income household, your income the top 10 percent of income earners in this country.. get off the greed train!!!!!! and CEO's don't have the stability or backup that union's provide! they can be fired at a moments whim, unions require just cause....
Why do I fly???
 
flyf15
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting Ual-Fan (Reply 18):
How do they compete at all on domestic routes with such terrible inflight service? Almost everyone else is upgrading service with PTV's, etc. but NWA doesn't seem to do anything.

Its been my experience that no matter how bad the service is, how delayed the flight is, how ragged the airplane is, and how many times the passenger says "I will never fly this airline again"... if it saves them $5 the next time they're buying a flight to fly on that airline again, they will. And they'll complain again, say they'll never come back, and once again.. will... over and over and over. Northwest's management knows this.
 
citrus1
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:01 pm

They must be doing something right they just brought a big piece of Midwest Airlines.
 
deltairlines
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:04 pm

Had a decent experience with NW on my trip back on Monday. Flight attendants on mainline flights were very professional...everything seemed fine with them. Can't really get a good comment on pilots; one of them didn't sound the most enthusiastic, but then again, pilots aren't really interacting with customers; I have no problem with hearing very little, if no announcements from the flight deck. The other flight, the pilots did a good job of keeping us updated when we were waiting on a gate at MEM.

My bags were separated from me due to the aforementioned delay; the rep I called at NW to inquire where my bags were was outstanding - one of the best airline c/s agents I've ever dealt with (and I made sure I sent a letter over to NW to let them know about the outstanding service I received). The GSO agents were a bit incompetent I take it (they thought I was going to pick up my bags despite the entry on the record saying that it was to be delivered via courier), but this agent took care of it and was great to deal with (it wasn't as simple as what I wrote, I'm just too lazy to type the whole story as I did when I emailed NW).
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting Ual-Fan (Reply 18):
How do they compete at all on domestic routes with such terrible inflight service? Almost everyone else is upgrading service with PTV's, etc. but NWA doesn't seem to do anything.

How do you account for the fact that NWA continualy has the highest domestic and international load factors in the industry? No excuse for rude F/A's but IFE really is not a big thing to most passengers.
 
sxf24
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 23):
How do you account for the fact that NWA continualy has the highest domestic and international load factors in the industry? No excuse for rude F/A's but IFE really is not a big thing to most passengers.

Captive markets and junk connecting fares. NW is obsessed with load factors and will sell a ticket at almost any price to fill another seat.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 24):
Captive markets and junk connecting fares. NW is obsessed with load factors and will sell a ticket at almost any price to fill another seat.
Could me give me a few examples of this? Also, if what you say is true, how does NWA have one of the highest RASM's in the domestic market?

[Edited 2007-08-30 14:35:26]
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:49 pm

I have a lot to say, both pro and con here about NW, the employees, the management 'deal' etc, etc
As most of you A-net vets know, I worked for them years ago along with two other carriers, an am Gold this year with NWA. It will not be fair to me at this time because I cant rebut after my post. I have an appointed with a surgeon tmrw
and triple bypass, so I will be away from A Net a couple of weeks.. I will miss you folks and the chance to say a few paragraphs on this. I DID enjoy the correlation between the movie and NWA management. Thanks for sharing.
safe/michael of Michigan
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
It is so sad when the world changes and some people just get stuck in the past forever.

Sometimes things change for the worse and need to be brought back around.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
When will the unions wake up? Most workers in this country don't have pensions. Most pay something for health care coverage. These people will drag down GM and Ford and NW kicking and screaming while they try to hang on by their fingernails to a reality that does not exist any more.

I have worked in union workplaces and non union workplaces ( I am in a union now). At the non union workplace I was at we were treated very good and got benefits and salary very close to the union wage in my area. Why did my employer do that? They wanted to keep the union out and the best way to do that was to provide the best pay/benefits possible. The work rules were different, but as long as pay/benefits were good most people didn't care. I know I didn't mind. If there was no union to keep out they would not have had any incentive to pay well or provide good benefits and neither would anyone else.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 23):
No excuse for rude F/A's but IFE really is not a big thing to most passengers.

I could care less about IFE, I always bring a book or magazine.

Quoting Ual-Fan (Reply 18):
The 757 really showed it's age big time

The last time I flew a NW 757 it was from MSP-SFO and back in July. The plane was built in 2002 and looked about the same to me as the other NW 757s I have flown on. It wasn't all that fancy, but the price/time was right it got me were I needed to go.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
TWFirst
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
If there was no union to keep out they would not have had any incentive to pay well or provide good benefits and neither would anyone else.

I disagree. Market conditions are the incentive. Non-union businesses across the American West right now are upping each other on pay & benefits. Why? The economy is good and they can't find workers. A business will pay what the labor market warrants. In the aviation world, the reality is there is no shortage of available workers who will work for what the airlines are offering.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
bobnwa
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 27):
I have an appointed with a surgeon tmrw
and triple bypass, so I will be away from A Net a couple of weeks.. I will miss you folks and the chance to say a few paragraphs on this. I DID enjoy the correlation between the movie and NWA management. Thanks for sharing.
safe/michael of Michigan

The very best of luck with your operation. Hope to have you posting again soon.
 
baron95
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 11):
. The fact that they don't quit does not prove that they are overpaid. Rather it proves that they are passionate about aviation

I should have been more explicit. I meant if they are not happy with their compensation cuts (pay+benefits+frills+enjoyment = compensation), they are free to go take a job at a better compensation at another emplyer in their field (aviation). [I made a mistake using pay instead of compenstaion and not mentioning their field]

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 12):
While the pay may not be great, it is the best they can do in their position.

Thank you for making my point for me. If it is the BEST that they can do, then there is still room to further reduce their compensation. They must still be above market compensation rates.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 28):
At the non union workplace I was at we were treated very good and got benefits and salary very close to the union wage in my area. Why did my employer do that? They wanted to keep the union out and the best way to do that was to provide the best pay/benefits possible.

Are you sure that the incentive for a non-union company to provide good compensation is not to retain and promote high achievers, prevent valuable employee loss to the competition, be able to fill open positions in a competitive job market, promote better employee satisfaction, better performance, higher profits?

Just look at the US high tech industry, software, computers, etc (from IBM to Cisco to Microsoft to Sun to Dell to HP to Oracle ....). Not a single one of them is unionized. Yet, they consistently offer the highest paying jobs in the industrial sector, great bennefits, stock options, pay raises. They are the absolute best in the world. They are not offering good compensation for fear of a union. They are offering it to increase profits. Top talent properly compensated = profits. Look at at the leaing and most profitable industry segments in America and you will find the same story. Banking/financing - no unions. Pharmaceuticals - no unions. High-tech - no unions. Look at the worst performing sectors: government (worst productivity) - unions, automobiles (losing $$$ and market share) - unions, textile (well they already did themselves in) - unions, airlines (on the way to do themselves in, billions in losses) - union. The jury is still out in aerospace (lots of consolidation, alternate boom/bust cycles, etc) - mixed unions/non-unions.

The thing is that unions fight very hard to tread employees as groups. Pay increases, work rules, etc are all about the group, the seniority, the job title. Once that happens it all goes down hill. Employees are individuals. Mary maybe at NW for 10 years, but may not be a good FA. Jane maybe at NW for 6 months, but she is great. Try putting Jane on a first class cabin of an international flight, and keep mary in the back of a regional airline. It ain't gonna happen because of the unions. Try giving Jane a bigger pay raise than Mary. Again ain't gonna happen because of the union rules.

This is the most destructive force in legacy industries in America. those that hang on to it too tight are doomed the second effective competition shows up.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
m404
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:02 pm

Isitsafenow

I'll miss your comments greatly and hope for your fast and safe return. Please keep in touch.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):

And YX was stupid enough to cast thier lot in with this bunch instead of FL. Unreal.
One Nation Under God
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5027
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
The fact that they don't while complainigni about the company is just proof that they are still over paid for their skills.

OR maybe its just the fact that a lot of them by now would have to go back to school and start from the bottom. Have you gone through all flight training and stuff, because by that statement you haven't pilots are underpaid, they used to be fairly paid IMO.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 33):

And YX was stupid enough to cast thier lot in with this bunch instead of FL. Unreal.

I guess the company dissapearing would be the better option, sounds like they should have gone with FL just to turn into FL.
 
ACFA
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 31):
Look at the worst performing sectors: government (worst productivity) - unions, automobiles (losing $$$ and market share) - unions, textile (well they already did themselves in) - unions, airlines (on the way to do themselves in, billions in losses) - union.

The US is only 10% unionized, maybe even less. Your point about unions being the cause of "bad performance" does not account for the overwhelming majority of non-unionized workers in America.
 
717-200
Posts: 564
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:29 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
I applied for a job with NWA at the end of this July in PHX. Never got a thank you letter, never heard back from them. Good Riddance! NWA is really showing its B.S. after all. I'm not very thrilled on how the NWA recruiter treated me.

At least you got a response. I applied for an asistant dispatcher position last year that was posted on their jobs site and got absolutely no response from them. After your experience with one of their HR folks, I will never even consider them for a job or fly on them ever. I'd rather take Amtrak than fly on them!
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
ACFA
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 19):
CEO's don't have the stability or backup that union's provide! they can be fired at a moments whim, unions require just cause....

Oh please, we all know that $26 million + is worth far more than anything a union's job security will provide. Tell me, if you were given the choice of earning Doug Steenlands salary, or being paid at the highest earning unionized job at the top of the payscale at NWA, which one would you pick?
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
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RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 37):
Tell me, if you were given the choice of earning Doug Steenlands salary, or being paid at the highest earning unionized job at the top of the payscale at NWA, which one would you pick?

Now here is a trick Q. Is it $alary or $tock option$ and other bennie$ worth the million$?
Theres a dif, you know......
IF..... it was million$ in just $alary, now thats a $lam dunk.
safe

[Edited 2007-08-30 20:00:43]
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 31):

Thank you for making my point for me. If it is the BEST that they can do, then there is still room to further reduce their compensation. They must still be above market compensation rates.

You completely mistinterpreted my point. They are not at all above market compensation rates. What I am saying is that they could get better compensation elsewhere, but only after spending decades building up seniority. A year 7 757 captain at NWA is paid $137 an hour. There is a 68 hour monthly guarantee which puts their yearly pay at $111, 792. However, if they went to say CO, they would have to go back to year one FO seniority. Year one pay at CO is 26,784. A year 4 Small Narrowbody (733/5/G) captain at CO makes the same hourly rate. With their 72 hour guarantee it puts them at 118,368. They would have to build up seniority before upgrading and making it to that point in the payscale. That could take years, and there is no guarantee they'll ever make it. Staying at NW is the best they can do because going elsewhere would result in years making less than they do now without the guarantee that theyll ever make it.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 31):
The thing is that unions fight very hard to tread employees as groups. Pay increases, work rules, etc are all about the group, the seniority, the job title. Once that happens it all goes down hill. Employees are individuals. Mary maybe at NW for 10 years, but may not be a good FA. Jane maybe at NW for 6 months, but she is great. Try putting Jane on a first class cabin of an international flight, and keep mary in the back of a regional airline. It ain't gonna happen because of the unions. Try giving Jane a bigger pay raise than Mary. Again ain't gonna happen because of the union rules.

Seniority-based upgrades and payscales are in place for safety reasons. Let's say an airline has merit-based upgrades. To become a captain, Joe F. Officer has to meet certain on-time goals. Let's say Joe's the PF on final approach into JFK in Cat III conditions. Joe needs to make it ontime tonight if he's to make the next upgrade class. They reach decision altitude, but they can't see the runway. Joe is concerned about making that ontime goal (he's got a family to feed). He continues past decision height without making visual contact with the runway. Because of this, the plane ends up doing a controlled descent into terrain, killing everyone on board. While this is an extreme example, the seniority system insures that pilots and F/A's don't have to decide between their own financial gain and the safety of their passengers.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
ACFA
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 38):
Now here is a trick Q. Is it $alary or $tock option$ and other bennie$ worth the million$?
Theres a dif, you know......
IF..... it was million$ in just $alary, now thats a $lam dunk.

The point of my post was to point out the ridiculousness of the notion that union job security and CEO compensation can even be compared. As we know, executives make astronomical pay compared to their employees, but apparently its acceptable since its probably their market rates.

This is the problem with the capitalism that the likes of Baron95 and HPAEAA support. In this system, if the market wage descends to minimum wage while cost of living (gas, food, rent...etc) increases, its perfectly acceptable. If you want an extreme example, look at any third world country where the market wage is often $1 a day, some will try to argue that its okay because "thats a lot of money for them!".

There needs to be a balance somewhere, employees need to make decent wages that can support their living, and their future. When the executives make 400 times more than the average employee, something is very very wrong.
 
ACFA
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:44 am

The whole notion that employees should only be paid their percieved "market rate" illustrates why unions are all the more essential. However, quite often the unions that are around today have poor leadership, nonetheless its still better to have a bad union than no union at all. Only by having pilots, flight attendants, engineers, ramp workers collectively organized can they fight to increase their "market rate". After all, theres no incentive for the employer to pay $10/hr when someone who's desperate agrees to work for $5/hr.

The executives are organized collectively, therefore theres no reason for the employees to not be organized in some fashion as well.
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 35):
The US is only 10% unionized, maybe even less. Your point about unions being the cause of "bad performance" does not account for the overwhelming majority of non-unionized workers in America.

Actually, in the private sector, the US has low union rates. And that is one of the top reasons why the US has such a vibrant economy. In the civil government sector, this country is almost 100% unionized, which explains the lower productivity and appaling service levels at public schools and social security offices.

However, if you look at key industries in trouble, automobile, texteile, airlines, etc.... they have a very, very, very high unionization rate and very, very, very combersome work rules. Rats, look at GM. Paying full pension and benefits to an aging/retired work force. Paying people to stay at home. Unable to close factories. Oh well. Guess what. They are no longer #1, and soon will be irrelevant.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 39):
You completely mistinterpreted my point.

Bok269. I understand the issue of seniority. If there was true demand for pilots at $150K-$250K/year annual compensation, any good pilot should be able to leave a job with an employer and take a job with another one. Despite the union rules. It is as simple as that. When JetBlue went into business, what did they pay per hour to the first A320 captain they qualified? That is pretty close to your market rate. Virgin america is hiring with a blank slate. What are they paying? See any good NW airlines Pilot can interview and get that job.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 39):
However, if they went to say CO, they would have to go back to year one FO seniority.

No. No. No. The situation you described in ONLY true because ALL US legacy carriers are forced to overpay their older pilots, so they put all these rules to be able to hire at the bottom at close to market rates. It is a defence against imposed above market rates. Lets say CO bought a new type a 77W and they wanted to hire 4 new captains for the typee. They'd love to just hire in the open market an already qualified 77W pilots, and put them right on the line. Unions won't let them. So they promote a 767 captain to 77W with an extra $20K/year. They promote a 737 captain to 767 with an extra $15K/year, etc, etc, an at the bottom, they hire a new 737 FO at $35K/year.

So it is really hard to even determine what the market rate is for a 77W captain simply because we don't have an open and free market operating. We only get little glimpses at the free market when a startup airline starts flying. Say jet blue, or at the very bottom of the market for FOs.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 39):
Seniority-based upgrades and payscales are in place for safety reasons.

You don't really believe that do you? Why is that seniority for FAs is the same as for pilots then?

Are you saying that if you were tasked with reviewing the NW pilot population you would not be able to tell good pilots from average pilots from sub-par pilots? I'm sure you could. You'd judge them like any other professional: Scores on flight checks, speed and ease of learning new procedures or new equipment, punctuality/tardiness when showing up for work, willingness to pitch in for reserve schedule, communication skills, violation reccord, 360-degree input from flight and cabin crews, etc...
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):

Bok269. I understand the issue of seniority. If there was true demand for pilots at $150K-$250K/year annual compensation, any good pilot should be able to leave a job with an employer and take a job with another one. Despite the union rules. It is as simple as that. When JetBlue went into business, what did they pay per hour to the first A320 captain they qualified? That is pretty close to your market rate. Virgin america is hiring with a blank slate. What are they paying? See any good NW airlines Pilot can interview and get that job.

Market demand is determined by the pilots. Pilots know they deserve 6 figures to captain a 777. The airlines realize this. If they wanted to be cheap, they could lower their rates, but then you would attract lower quality applicants to the professian. No one would pay tens of thousands of dollars for training for a career that maxed out at 50k a year. Pilots are highly trained individuals who need to stay profficient in an ever-changing professian. Id say the market value for that is pretty high.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
So it is really hard to even determine what the market rate is for a 77W captain simply because we don't have an open and free market operating. We only get little glimpses at the free market when a startup airline starts flying. Say jet blue, or at the very bottom of the market for FOs.

The free market is there. Just because 777 captains aren't hired off the street doesn't mean they are payed at market value.

Among the legacy 777 operators in the US(for captains at year 12):
AA-202/hr at 64 hours a month.

CO-189/hr at 72 hours a month.

DL-185/hr at 65 hours a month.

UA-184/hr at 65 hours a month.

From this, we can conclude that market value for a year 12 777 captain is about 150-170k a year. market value is all relative. The airlines obviously feel that they are getting what they pay for. If they really wanted to, they could fire all the union pilots and bring in a bunch of non-union guys at rock-bottom prices. But they don't feel the need to do that.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
Are you saying that if you were tasked with reviewing the NW pilot population you would not be able to tell good pilots from average pilots from sub-par pilots? I'm sure you could. You'd judge them like any other professional: Scores on flight checks, speed and ease of learning new procedures or new equipment, punctuality/tardiness when showing up for work, willingness to pitch in for reserve schedule, communication skills, violation reccord, 360-degree input from flight and cabin crews, etc...

There is a difference between an average pilot and a pilot that is a safety concern. The latter are dealt with to ensure safety. The rest of the the criteria you listed would make it impossible to design a payscale, and many of those are
subjective fields of judgement.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 42):
You don't really believe that do you? Why is that seniority for FAs is the same as for pilots then?

Many pilots feel that it is a safety risk to have merit-based upgrades. As for the F/a's, how do you judge them? How quick they can do a round of beverage service?
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
BWI757
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:58 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:46 am

Can someone please provide a link to the video for those of us behind firewalls/content filters? Thanks

BWI757
I live in the US but my heart is in Jerusalem!
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 19):

Ahh, its okay. Most of the members on this site don't remember I'm a deafie. I didn't take offense to the FA comment, I thought it was funny actually. A deaf flight attendant....now thats something of a good idea...... LOL!!!!!

Quoting 717-200 (Reply 36):
At least you got a response.

Actually, I never got a response after that July 26th PHX interview. I think after the interview, the recruiter threw my application in the trash right away, but I really don't know if she did or not. But I do have some theories! LOL!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:14 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:36 am

Companies don't realize the harmful very long term public relations effect their HR people can cause with terrible behavior in the job interviewing process. I am a college professor and I interact with company recruiters throughout the year. I have students tell me that if they ever go into purchasing they would think hard before buying products from companies that treated them poorly in recruiting.

I recall my early career days at United (great job interviewing experience). On the other hand Allegheny at that time treated prospective employees with bully gym coach behavior. I wondered who would want to go work for them if this is the outward face the company put in the recruiting side of the business.

So, I understand the original thread message about a lousy NWA experience.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 1):
Interesting vid. I can't wait to read the responses from those on A.net who have a fetish for NWA's management.

where is Bobnwa? wait for it, wait for it........

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 26):
Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 24):
Captive markets and junk connecting fares. NW is obsessed with load factors and will sell a ticket at almost any price to fill another seat.
Could me give me a few examples of this? Also, if what you say is true, how does NWA have one of the highest RASM's in the domestic market?

NW makes a killing out of their above average number of exclusive routes which they price-gouge..... errrrr.... charge the maximum possible price the market will pay on them...

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):
If NW's employees could find a better job at another employer they'd leave in a second. The fact that they don't while complainigni about the company is just proof that they are still over paid for their skills.

i'll go ahead and lay blame on unions here. if you quit airline X to work at airline Y, you start at the bottom of union employee seniority and pay grade. also, the airline business is a small, competitive one... not a lot of players, it's easy for airline X to say "airline Y just cut their employees to this rate, now our employees have to take that too."

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 9):

When will the unions wake up? Most workers in this country don't have pensions. Most pay something for health care coverage. These people will drag down GM and Ford and NW kicking and screaming while they try to hang on by their fingernails to a reality that does not exist any more.

For being demanding and skilled jobs, airline jobs really don't pay that well. I'll bet you have pretty good health coverage. I'll be you have a pension. My grandfather was a Fortune 500 executive back in the sixties.... and came out of retirement briefly in the early 1980s. He's as hardcore cut-throat capitalist of a person as I believe exists - pioneering outsourcing to cut labor costs and dodge environmental laws back in the day. He (now quite old) talks to me about how in the sixties he made maybe 15-20 times what the average man working the line in the plant made. Those plant workers had pensions and health insurance. When he came back in the 1980s, including his stock options, he was making between 50-75 times what the man on the line made, and now you needed to reach a certain level of seniority to get benefits. Today, it's close to 500 times what the man on the line makes in a lot of cases. It's not that the guy on the line is being over-compensated and gets too many benefits, it's that there is no reason executives need to make 250-500 times what the average employee is making. Even if executives can get it, it - at some point- becomes something of a moral issue, to me.

Grinstein is a good and honorable man. Steenland is just a greedy SOB who has really failed so far to meaningfully improve NW's business and has only succeeded at squeezing more cash out of its employees.

GM and Ford don't actually pay very much more for labor than do foreign automakers in the US. Healthcare costs are hurting the US Big 3, but they are starting to hit the foreign automakers too. It appears Roger Smith had the right idea moving production to Mexico. Part of why foreign automakers in American pay less is that they move in to economically depressed areas where wages are low, whereas the US automakers are located where they are located and moving is expensive .... and they have unions. The big difference, however, is that GM and Ford have legacy costs. People like Honda haven't been making cars in America THAT long, their pension and other legacy costs are not that bad, yet.

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 46):
So, I understand the original thread message about a lousy NWA experience.

NWA has a lousy experience for everyone, customer or employee! Come down and find yours today!
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:14 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:27 am

Flydreamer. So correct on your comments.

GM has something like 300,000 people in retirement with pension and health care costs. Viagara for retired men at GM costs the company $17 million/year. That one drug alone!

Toyota is so new to the U.S. that their number is something like 300 in retirement.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 46):
Companies don't realize the harmful very long term public relations effect their HR people can cause with terrible behavior in the job interviewing process.

 checkmark  When I went in for this NWA interview, this HR woman (too bad I can't say her name or I'll get banned..) really terrified the hell out of me. She was nice to me, but my perception of the woman herself just made both: herself and NWA look really, really bad. I have a really bad feeling, if NWA keeps this up, they are not going to last very long as a stand-alone company.

Like I said before: Treat others how you want to be treated. AND....to add: Don't bite the hand that feeds.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
sxf24
Posts: 595
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 26):
Could me give me a few examples of this? Also, if what you say is true, how does NWA have one of the highest RASM's in the domestic market?

NW has one of the highest RASMs domestically largely because of the yield premium it can command in its largely captive heartland markets. The remainder of its seats are filled with lower yield connecting passengers.

NW has one of the highest load factors in the US and my conclusion is based on casual observance of its pricing strategy.
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Why Are Things To Bad At Northwest Airlines?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 43):
From this, we can conclude that market value for a year 12 777 captain is about 150-170k a year.

Then, could you please explain to me how come today these rates are 35% or so lower then they were a couple of years ago? Did flying become easier? Did the pilot's productivity decrease? Did the number of 777 captains suddenly increase? Nope. What happened was that the Unions rules and wages caused the legacies to hemorrage so much money that in the end they were forced by the bankruptcy or threat of bankruptcy to instantly give concessions. I.e. the pay/work-rules were so out of whack that no company could emerge out of bankrupty without that beeing changed.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 43):
As for the F/a's, how do you judge them?



Quoting Jcavinato (Reply 48):
GM has something like 300,000 people in retirement with pension and health care costs. Viagara for retired men at GM costs the company $17 million/year. That one drug alone!

Toyota is so new to the U.S. that their number is something like 300 in retirement.

And the GM unions will fight tooth an nails if you as much as try to have them have a co-payment on that viagra. They are totally unconcerned that that is slowly destroying GM and sending customer's to Toyota's arms. It is like an alcoholic that does not care if he is destroying his liver or crashing his car. He just wants to drink. And the unions want to preserve a pension, work-rules, pay scale that is no longer compatible with the state if their respective industry.

In textile, where the barrier to entry is low and lots of competition came in, the demise of the industry was very fast. Same in consumer electronics mannufacturing, etc. In autos, it will take a bit longer. In airlines, it will take a very long time, because of government protection, barriers of entry, etc. First you lose the biggest names (PanAm, Brannif, TWA) that were exposed to the most competition (international service). Then you lose the weeklings (Eastern, etc). Then you start to lose some of the big boys. NW is clearly the next one to go.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER

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