CO777DAL
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Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:19 am

Is CO on the verge of becoming a true “international” airline?

I was reading "American, other legacy airlines look internationally for growth" in the Dallas Morning News and the paper had lots of interesting information on Continental.

One thing I found particular interesting was the break down of percentage of international service among the airlines.

“Continental, for example, had 48.6 percent of its capacity in international service in July, up 10.4 percentage points from 2001.”

With almost 50% of their flying being international CO seems on the verge of becoming a true “international” airline. I say true international because CO will be flying more passengers internationally than domestically.

Does anyone think CO will reach and pass 50% of their passenger traffic being international? If yes, when do you think CO will reach that mark?

Will this be the first time (modern times) that one of the U.S. Legacy carriers will have more international passenger traffic than domestic? (Not counting pre regulation time airlines as Pan Am etc).

To me it seems CO is the most international of any of the US Legacy carriers. They are not the biggest in the country, but they still have a large domestic system and growing both domestic and international system.

I know there has been talk about the CO name and branding during, god forbid, those awful CO/UA merger threads, but CO flies to more international destinations than UA which gives them name and branding recognition in a large part of the world. It seems as each day passes the CO name and brand becomes stronger.

I also know no current US Legacy carrier is close to that of Pan Am, but is CO the closest US Legacy carrier today in terms of being the most international?

I was on a CO flight Tuesday and their napkin said “IT’S A SMALL WORLD. BUT ONLY IF YOU FLY THE RIGHT AIRLINE. The most international destinations of any U.S. airline.”

I guess it’s true they are not called Continental for nothing  Wink

Thoughts?
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United787
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:06 am

I am curious to know what percentage of AA, UA and DL's operations are international.

Correct me if I am wrong but:
DL beats CO to Europe
UA and NW beats CO to Asia and
AA beats CO to Latin America (incl the Caribbean)

It seems like CO can make that claim because of a ton of Mexico destinations along with Micronesia added to their Europe destinations.
 
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CV880
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:17 am

It seems that a large percentage of CO's international flights are on narrow bodied aircraft as opposed to the other legacy carriers. Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?
 
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cageyjames
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?

If it gets me where I need to be quicker, it would be well worth it.
 
PA101
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:48 am

Well, compared to other carriers such as AA, CO seems to do the right strategy by focussing on secondary airports such as EDI, HAM or OSL as well. Thus, they'll eventually pick up more and more passengers that prefer to fly to EWR directly, without having to use the highly crowded hubs at LHR, CDG or FRA.

In my opinion, they'll have the best chance to grow further and therefore, in a few years, might be Americas largest international carrier.

In regards to their 757s flying TATL: even though, I consider narrowbodies somewhat nasty on long flights, I'd still choose on of their flights over having to transfer. And meanwhile, AA and NW started as well to use 757s for TATL flights... Seems like, CO set the path for that.
 
CXA330300
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
Does anyone think CO will reach and pass 50% of their passenger traffic being international? If yes, when do you think CO will reach that mark?

Maybe in a few years time. Continental probably has many more services in planning right now. Can anyone confirm the rumour of a third daily TLV flight?
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tpaewr
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:49 am

Just becsue you don't like the aircraft doesn't mean EWR-TXL isn't an int'l flight. Facts are, that most CO pax are and have been int'l, given that wihle int'l service makes up 48%, and many of the domestic flight are full of int'l connecters.

But alas, these flights are not operated by 3-class 747-400s so they don't really count, never mind....
 
TreeHillRavens
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:18 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?

AVOD are coming to the 752 in all classes. It will make a whole lot of difference.
 
rwsea
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 5):
Can anyone confirm the rumour of a third daily TLV flight?

Very unlikely until the 787s arrive. CO's widebody capacity is just about maxed out, and obviously the 757 can't make it.

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
DL beats CO to Europe
UA and NW beats CO to Asia and
AA beats CO to Latin America (incl the Caribbean)

Those are all true. But CO is a close second to Europe, more of a distant second to Latin America. Obviously doesn't hold a candle to NW or UA in Asia.

CO's strategy is similar to DL, but different than the others. Take the example of Europe. AA and UA focus on the biggest and most important airports (LHR, FRA, CDG, AMS, etc.) and leave the rest to their partners. NW even more so - preferring to transfer just about all of their TATL pax to KL at AMS. DL and CO rely less on their partners and prefer to open more unique destinations.
 
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:42 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?

Quite a lot of people, actually Smile
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Falcon84
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
It seems like CO can make that claim because of a ton of Mexico destinations along with Micronesia added to their Europe destinations.

They ARE international destinations, are they not? How does that qualify CO's claim in any way? It doesn't.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
It seems that a large percentage of CO's international flights are on narrow bodied aircraft as opposed to the other legacy carriers. Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?

Apparently, a lot of people, based on how successful CO's 757 flying to secondary European markets has been. Just because you don't like it as an Anet wanker doesn't mean the general public even cares. They want an aircraft to get them there. The type of equipment used doesn't qualify international service, either, does it?
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Lemurs
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
It seems that a large percentage of CO's international flights are on narrow bodied aircraft as opposed to the other legacy carriers. Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?

As opposed to 6-7 hours in a widebody, 2-3 hours on the ground in a crowded hub airport (possibly clearing customs and immigrations), and then another 30-60 minutes in a narrowbody/commuter airplane, and then finally being at your destination?

Uhm...I want to spend 6+ hours in a 757, to go right to my destination, thanks.
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jetlanta
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
I also know no current US Legacy carrier is close to that of Pan Am, but is CO the closest US Legacy carrier today in terms of being the most international?

Part of the reason that CO's international network contributes such a large part of it's traffic is the fact that it's domestic network is so small. With it's two major hubs at the edge of the county, it is natural that it would have a big international share vs. domestic. CO's lack of a significant hub in the Midwest , Southeast or West (CLE is not significant yet) means that it's network is quite underdeveloped domestically. AA, UA and DL are much bigger domestically, which means that the domestic share of traffic is higher within their networks, despite being bigger international carriers than CO.

Also keep in mind that international traffic and revenue are not the same thing. CO carries a lot of people to Mexico. This has a huge impact on traffic, but contributes relatively small numbers in terms of revenue. 10 passengers to Merida are not as valuable as 10 passengers to Dubai. Or even 3, probably.

All of that said, all four of these carriers, and NW are "true" international carriers. Each of them rivals the largest cariers anywhere in the world.
 
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 6):
Just becsue you don't like the aircraft doesn't mean EWR-TXL isn't an int'l flight. Facts are, that most CO pax are and have been int'l, given that wihle int'l service makes up 48%, and many of the domestic flight are full of int'l connecters

They are not counted twice. If a passenger flies MCO-EWR-CDG he is an international passenger only. He is not counted as domestic. So most CO passengers have not been intl, only 48%. Domestic passengers are 52%.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting PA101 (Reply 4):
In my opinion, they'll have the best chance to grow further and therefore, in a few years, might be Americas largest international carrier.

EWR capacity issues could constrain their growth.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 10):
They ARE international destinations, are they not? How does that qualify CO's claim in any way? It doesn't.

And it's the same way that European carriers can claim to be large international carriers: proximity to large foreign countries.
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LawnDart
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
“Continental, for example, had 48.6 percent of its capacity in international service in July, up 10.4 percentage points from 2001.”



Quoting CO777DAL (Thread starter):
Does anyone think CO will reach and pass 50% of their passenger traffic being international?

Do you consider "Passenger Traffic" as a passenger boarded or a passenger flown one mile?

If ten passengers board a CO flight in CLT, fly to EWR and then on to DEL, they produce approximately 78,000 revenue passenger miles, but if 90 others board in CLT and get off in EWR, they produce only 47,000 revenue passenger miles.

Using this example, 61% of the revenue passenger miles are being flown by internationally-destined passengers, but 90% of the passengers boarding the flight in CLT are domestic.

So keep in mind that the statistics being used are Available Seat Miles. Defining "passenger traffic" as Revenue Passenger Miles then, yes, CO will undoubtedly reach the 50% mark, or more.

Quoting Tpaewr (Reply 6):
Facts are, that most CO pax are and have been int'l, given that wihle int'l service makes up 48%, and many of the domestic flight are full of int'l connecters.

Although I have no facts as far as CO is concerned, I would bet that international passenger boardings are a smaller percentage than domestic boardings.
 
uzimmermann
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airl

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:24 am

My wife flew with CO from SFO to HAM via EWR and it was a mess. On her outbound flight she arrived at SFO to be told her flight was late and she wouldn't be able to catch the EWR to HAM flight. Although she was there well early enough to get on a previous flight from SFO to EWR and there were seats available on that flight they wouldn't move her over. Now I wasn't present so I can't say what she tried or not tried to tell them. So she ended up late into EWR and after much back and forth they finally put her on a VS flight through LHR, then LH to HAM. She arrived like 6 hours or more late.

On the flight back I brought her to HAM and man, was she getting grilled by some CO Security person at HAM before she even got to the counter. I was standing next to her, having to translate a few times as the security person didn't speak english and my wife's german isn't that good. Took like over 10 minutes while other people got much faster to the counter.

She found the service on board of the 757 terrible and unfriendly and then got delayed again for some time in EWR before finally getting back to SFO. Never again she says.

I flew next day with BA via LHR, my check-in was a breeze, less then 3 minutes at the counter.
 
JRadier
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
CO's widebody capacity is just about maxed out, and obviously the 757 can't make it.

You can, however, replace a widebody with 2 757's (if cargo is not a large consideration) and deploy that to TLV.

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 13):
They are not counted twice. If a passenger flies MCO-EWR-CDG he is an international passenger only. He is not counted as domestic. So most CO passengers have not been intl, only 48%. Domestic passengers are 52%.

May I ask where you got this info from? The article clearly refers to capacity, not passengers. So the MCO-EWR segment IS counted as domestic. If MCO-EWR-CDG is counted as an international passenger, you have an international pax on domestic capacity (and that with all connecting international traffic) so the number of international passengers is probably higher then that 50% (provided there is more then 2% international connecting traffic).
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Lemurs
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Uzimmermann (Reply 16):
I flew next day with BA via LHR, my check-in was a breeze, less then 3 minutes at the counter.

Like most airline anecdotes, this is one flight from one person. I don't doubt that your wife had a bad experience, but no airline is immune from late flights or rescheduling, as I have had plenty of bad experiences on most airlines, BA, LH, et al. CO wins customer rankings year in and year out because when you average the experience out across the board, people tend to have generally better experiences on CO because they put a lot of effort into the customer service. They will always be exceptions however...you just need to recognize that one experience does not an airline make.

All things considered, only getting in 6 hours late after missing an International connection would make me THRILLED. My average is probably around the 18-24 hour mark. Unless you're flying direction to a Euro Megahub, there aren't a boatload of options for re-routing many times.
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san747
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 17):
You can, however, replace a widebody with 2 757's (if cargo is not a large consideration) and deploy that to TLV.

No you can't, the 757's range isn't nearly close enough to do a NONSTOP flight that long. If you had it stop somewhere in Europe, it could work, but then what advantage would it have over any other routing you could take?
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 1):
Correct me if I am wrong but:
DL beats CO to Europe
UA and NW beats CO to Asia and
AA beats CO to Latin America (incl the Caribbean)

What's importqant about the above statement is that no carrier that "beats" CO is shown also beating CO in another category and most are way down the list in other categories. CO's international services are more diversified than DL, UA, AA and NW. Number 2 in most categories and number 3 in one adds up to unparalleled international coverage for CO. Sure, larger aircraft would be nice, but CO has a solid fleet plan that will allow greater international expansion in 2008 and 2009.
While AA struggles with the looming replacement issue of the huge MD80 fleet, UA having identity and service issues, DL trying to rebrand themselves and NW just trying to stay afloat, CO is pressing forward on a steady pace, even if some see it as slower than they would like.
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letsgetwet
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Uzimmermann (Reply 16):
On the flight back I brought her to HAM and man, was she getting grilled by some CO Security person at HAM before she even got to the counter.

This security person was more than likely a airport employee , not a Continental employee.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:41 am

Actually, I'm not even sure that CO's claim to be more international is even accurate. I believe DL now serves more destinations worldwide than any other airline so by that measure CO is not the largest int'l airline.

As several have shown, on a traffic basis CO is not #1 in any region of the world.

But the real measure demonstrating how international a carrier is the percent of revenue an airline derives from int'l operations. By accounting standards, companies do report where their revenue comes from. CO does get a higher percentage of revenue from int'l operations but not more absolute revenue than other US carriers.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
DL and CO rely less on their partners and prefer to open more unique destinations.

Actually, DL has very strong relationships with its partners but it ALSO has a diverse route network. I personally think CO will be squeezed in the int'l arena as other carriers offer the same destinations CO has but also have alliance relationships to support those routes.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 12):
Part of the reason that CO's international network contributes such a large part of it's traffic is the fact that it's domestic network is so small.

CO's domestic system also loses money, according to DOT data, and has since 9/11. CO's profits come solely from its int'l system. No other US airline has been unprofitable in any region of the world as long as CO is on its domestic system.

And CO is adding capacity to its domestic system, partly to get its costs down but it is also depressing its revenue performance.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 12):
With it's two major hubs at the edge of the county, it is natural that it would have a big international share vs. domestic.

Both of them are also very large international cities too.

Quoting Uzimmermann (Reply 16):
I was standing next to her, having to translate a few times as the security person didn't speak english

please tell me you are kidding. An employee or even a public contact contractor working for a US airline who cannot speak English?

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 20):
CO is pressing forward on a steady pace, even if some see it as slower than they would like.

Actually, CO was virtually alone in adding int'l capacity in the late 90s and into the early 2000s. They will find the sledding increasingly difficult as other carriers add capacity. They are certainly not in danger but their heady forward progress will slow because there are lots of other int'l airlines adding capacity. Every US airline is figuring out to wring just one more int'l flight out of their existing fleet.
 
COEI2007
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
It seems that a large percentage of CO's international flights are on narrow bodied aircraft as opposed to the other legacy carriers. Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757

Who wants to travel from HAM to EWR via LHR? I'd rather fly a 757 than have two flights or have to transfer at LHR!
 
JRadier
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting San747 (Reply 19):

No you can't, the 757's range isn't nearly close enough to do a NONSTOP flight that long. If you had it stop somewhere in Europe, it could work, but then what advantage would it have over any other routing you could take?

Yes you can, only you haven't read the sentence correctly. You replace a widebody with 2 757's (the second EWR-AMS for example), and put that 767 (if that makes it, otherwise you can trade that in somewhere for a 777) on EWR-TLV. Of Course there are plenty of downsides (less cargo capacity, EWR-TLV being a longer flight so you need to get more capacity from somewhere), but it is possible.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 23):
Who wants to travel from HAM to EWR via LHR? I'd rather fly a 757 than have two flights or have to transfer at LHR!

BA carries alot of traffic from the US to continental Europe via LHR and AF carries plenty of traffic from the US to Germany. Whether you think it make sense doesn't matter. It happens and it happens alot.
 
pizzaandplanes
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airl

Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
please tell me you are kidding. An employee or even a public contact contractor working for a US airline who cannot speak English?

Probably exaggerated a little.

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 18):
All things considered, only getting in 6 hours late after missing an International connection would make me THRILLED.

True. She is very lucky to be only 6 hours late. Anyway, things happen and no one's perfect.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 7):

AVOD are coming to the 752 in all classes. It will make a whole lot of difference.

Yes, it seems a little ridiculous but a lot of people book trans-Atlantic flights based on the plane having AVOD or not.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 12):
10 passengers to Merida are not as valuable as 10 passengers to Dubai.

CO doesn't fly to Dubai for a reason. Therefore, 10 passengers to Merida are 100% more valuable than 10 passengers to Dubai.
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rwsea
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
Yes you can, only you haven't read the sentence correctly. You replace a widebody with 2 757's (the second EWR-AMS for example), and put that 767 (if that makes it, otherwise you can trade that in somewhere for a 777) on EWR-TLV. Of Course there are plenty of downsides (less cargo capacity, EWR-TLV being a longer flight so you need to get more capacity from somewhere), but it is possible.

Another downside is the fact that EWR is completely saturated in the evening rush as it is, and running 2-3x daily 757s to a market that could easily support a widebody just adds to that. CO is increasingly concerned by the issues at EWR and I'm sure they're taking this into account as well.

Also, remember that CO is starting EWR-BOM in a few months, which will eat up 2 more 777s. CO only had 18 777s at last count (that may have increased to 20 with recent delieveries, not really sure), but routes like NRT, DEL, HKG, BOM, PEK, and TLV pretty much eat all that capacity up. The 767s can serve TLV, but they're much needed for routes like EZE, GRU-GIG, ATH, etc. When the 777s come off of BRU to serve BOM, that will take more 752s.
 
tpaewr
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 13):
They are not counted twice. If a passenger flies MCO-EWR-CDG he is an international passenger only. He is not counted as domestic. So most CO passengers have not been intl, only 48%. Domestic passengers are 52%.

I read "Continental, for example, had 48.6 percent of its capacity in international service ", capacity I am understanding as ASMs, not RPM, nor RASM. So I don't believe the 48.6 includes domestic feed, only pure int'l ASM.
 
JRadier
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 27):

Another downside is the fact that EWR is completely saturated in the evening rush as it is, and running 2-3x daily 757s to a market that could easily support a widebody just adds to that. CO is increasingly concerned by the issues at EWR and I'm sure they're taking this into account as well.

Also, remember that CO is starting EWR-BOM in a few months, which will eat up 2 more 777s. CO only had 18 777s at last count (that may have increased to 20 with recent delieveries, not really sure), but routes like NRT, DEL, HKG, BOM, PEK, and TLV pretty much eat all that capacity up. The 767s can serve TLV, but they're much needed for routes like EZE, GRU-GIG, ATH, etc. When the 777s come off of BRU to serve BOM, that will take more 752s.

You make some very valid remarks, and like I said there are plenty of downsides. I don't see CO doing what I described, however it is a possibility. Probably not a very good one, as the problems far outweigh any increase in revenue.
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WesternA318
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 2):
Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 757?

If this was 1960ish, would you be asking ...Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 707/DC-8? Or heaven forbid, the old SAS DC-8's from Oslo to LAX/SFO?
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uzimmermann
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:06 am

I am flying the SFO to HAM route about twice a year for the last 12 years. Original I tried different airlines, DL, LH, KL but I settled on BA. Original it was because the connections through LHR were better in my opinion then through other cities, as little as 1.5 hours coming from SFO. Although the last few times I have flown in F or J, and with the lounge and showers in LHR, I have actually stopped there for 3-5 hours and enjoyed a nice long shower before continuing on to HAM for dinner and bed.

As pointed out the security person my wife encountered in HAM was very possible an airport employee but BA had none of them standing there (which could well be because my flight was just to LHR). But it was still bad. 10 minutes? My wife is an US citizen, returning to her country and she got grilled for 10 minutes. And it wasn't like there was anyone in front of her at the counter, other people behind her got to the counter before her. Even this was just one round trip, based on what I have personal seen and heard from her, I won't fly CO to HAM.
 
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CV880
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 30):
If this was 1960ish, would you be asking ...Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 707/DC-8? Or heaven forbid, the old SAS DC-8's from Oslo to LAX/SFO?

I'd rather be in a DL767-300ER vs a CO757-200 anyday. Now when DL begins TATL 757 service with fuel stops on the westbound leg (if that happens), then I may feel different.
 
jetlanta
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 26):
CO doesn't fly to Dubai for a reason. Therefore, 10 passengers to Merida are 100% more valuable than 10 passengers to Dubai.

You didn't understand my point.

I'm saying that certainly CO has a higher % of its capacity in international markets, but an extremely large portion of that international capacity comes in very small regional markets where revenue numbers are much smaller.

Those 10 passengers to Merida do not generate as much revenue for CO as 10 passengers to Dubai do for Delta (or 10 passengers to HKG for CO). The Merida passengers likely don't even generate as much revenue as 10 SEA passengers for CO. The point here is that % of seats in international markets really isn't a significant metric. % of revenue is a much better one.

Besides, the only reason CO doesn't fly to DXB is the lack of a suitable aircraft. Once the 787 arrives, they will be in that market from IAH for sure.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 33):
Those 10 passengers to Merida do not generate as much revenue for CO as 10 passengers to Dubai do for Delta (or 10 passengers to HKG for CO). The Merida passengers likely don't even generate as much revenue as 10 SEA passengers for CO. The point here is that % of seats in international markets really isn't a significant metric. % of revenue is a much better one.

but the costs to fly to Merida are much lower than to Dubai. That is why at a route level the best metric is the profit MARGIN - which considers both the costs and revenue.

AA has a considerable lead over other airlines in the number of international passengers because so many are to the Caribbean and Latin America which do not generate as much revenue as transoceanic passengers, on average.

CO may well fly to DXB but remember that EK is starting IAH-DXB in just a couple months - they will have a considerable head start. That is why I say that it will not be easy for CO to continue to expand as it did for the past 10 years because alot of other carriers - foreign and US - are adding routes asaggressively if not moreso than CO.
 
letsgetwet
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:39 am

[quote=Uzimmermann,reply=31]other people behind her got to the counter before her. /quote]

What was it about your wife that made them suspicious?
 
TrvlnMan
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:12 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 15):
Although I have no facts as far as CO is concerned, I would bet that international passenger boardings are a smaller percentage than domestic boardings.

Yeah, As stated above, 48% international. That leaves the remaining 52% for domestic..... 48 IS less than 52.
 
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting Uzimmermann (Reply 16):
My wife flew with CO from SFO to HAM via EWR and it was a mess. On her outbound flight she arrived at SFO to be told her flight was late and she wouldn't be able to catch the EWR to HAM flight. Although she was there well early enough to get on a previous flight from SFO to EWR and there were seats available on that flight they wouldn't move her over.

I find that hard to believe.... I'd be interested in hearing how the conversation between her and the agent went. Not saying it didn't happen, just a little doubtful that if there were seats available and enough time for her to make the flight that she would be denied. Many passengers think that 10 minutes prior to departure is plenty of time to make a flight. Another possibility is that it may have been weight restricted - unfortunately, sometimes a plane has to go out with empty seats for this reason.
 
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
No other US airline has been unprofitable in any region of the world as long as CO is on its domestic system.

Does that include the Quarters that CO was reporting profits and DL was under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection from their Creditors? CO was the First Major to report consecutive profitable quarters after 9-11, CO was the First US Legacy after 9-11 to break even for the year, and CO was the first US legacy to report a yearly profit since 9-11.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:58 am

I'm not disputing that. I'm simply saying that the most recent DOT data shows that CO's domestic system is unprofitable and the same data says that it has been since 9/11. No other airline has had a DOT region remain consistently unprofitable for so long.

The point is that even though CO's international system does very well, CO does not have a financially viable domestic system. No matter how good CO may do on its international routes, it cannot perform on par with other carriers financially until it fixes its domestic system.

Dismissing the huge financial burden CO's domestic system is to it is like a patient asking his doctor to notice how good his chest and arms look as a result of the time he has spent in the gym while overlooking the skin cancer all over his legs.
 
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 30):

If this was 1960ish, would you be asking ...Who wants to fly 6++ hours in a 707/DC-8? Or heaven forbid, the old SAS DC-8's from Oslo to LAX/SFO?

I still find it funny that people have no problem doing a 6+ hour trip on a 757 (or smaller) from EWR to LAX, but a 6+ hour trip from EWR to EDI is horrible. Guess they don't trust the 757 over that big scary ocean or something...
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:12 am

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 40):
a 6+ hour trip from EWR to EDI is horrible.

just wait til 737NGs start plying the North Atlantic.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:15 am

Most people would define as a true 'international' airline as one that offers service to a number of significant countries, not just nearby island or 'postage stamp' countries. For a USA based airline, I would suggest more than 35% of it's service would have to be 'international' under it's own metal (or composite), not just to the Caribbean or adjacent countries like Canada or Mexico. By that definition CO is, as are UA, AA, NW, but not US, Jet Blue, among USA based airlines, true international ones.
 
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STT757
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:21 am

Another item that makes CO more International than the other US carriers is the fact that one of CO's hubs (Guam) caters almost entirely to connecting non-US citizens connecting to non-US destinations, much of Guam's traffic is Japanese travelers connecting through Guam to Australia, Bali, Palau, Manila etc..

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
Actually, I'm not even sure that CO's claim to be more international is even accurate. I believe DL now serves more destinations worldwide than any other airline so by that measure CO is not the largest int'l airline.

CO still serves the most International Destinations of any US airline, for comparison.

DL's Asian/Pacific destinations:

Japan:
Tokyo 1 daily flight

Korea:
Seoul 1 flight

UAE:
Dubai 1 flight

India:
Mumbai 1 daily flight

Israel:
Tel Avivi 1 flight

CO's Asian/Pacific Destinations:

Australia:
Cairns 1 flight

Japan:
Tokyo 5 daily flights
Nagoya 3 daily flights
Osaka 1 daily flight
Fukuoka 1 daily flight
Hiroshima 1 flight
Niigata 1 flight
Okayama 1 flight
Sapporo 1 flight
Sendai 1 flight

Taiwan:
Taipei 1 flight

China:
Beijing 1 daily flight
Hong Kong 2 flights

Indonesia:
Denpasar Bali 1 flight

Palau:
Koror 1 flight

Caroline Islands:
Kosrae 2 flights
Pohnpei 2 flights
Truk 2 flights
Yap 2 flights

Marshall Islands:
Majuro 2 flights
Kwajalein 2 flights

Philippines:
Manila 2 daily

Northern Mariana:
Rota 1 daily flight
Saipan 7 daily flights

India:
Delhi 1 daily
Mumbai 1 daily (starts Oct)

Israel:
Tel Aviv 2 daily
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:28 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 41):
just wait til 737NGs start plying the North Atlantic

They already are, albeit with Business Class only seating:

LH/Privatair:
EWR-Munich daily BBJ
EWR-Dusseldorf daily A319LR

ORD-Dusseldorf daily A319LR

LX/Privatair:
EWR-Zurich 1 daily BBJ

KLM/Privatair:
IAH-Amsterdam 1 daily BBJ

If CO were to ever fly 737s across the Atlantic, it would be a similar to Privatair with an all BusinessFirst cabin.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
pizzaandplanes
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 43):

Those numbers are mostly correct. Some of CO's Air Micronesia flights don't operate daily but 5 times weekly (Guam-Cairns).

Quoting STT757 (Reply 44):

If CO were to ever fly 737s across the Atlantic, it would be a similar to Privatair with an all BusinessFirst cabin.

Unfortunately, thats not CO's business model. Also, that is the only way it could be profitable. So, don't expect the 737NGs to cross the Atlantic...ever...
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iahflyer
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:53 am

Will CO ever make a non-stop IAH or EWR-Guam flight? Guam is listed as a hub on the website. Yet, to get there you have to go to HAWAII first.
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
Falcon84
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:25 pm

Quoting CV880 (Reply 32):
I'd rather be in a DL767-300ER vs a CO757-200 anyday.

Depends on your itinerary, doesn't it? If you want to get nonstop to places like HAM, BEL, SNN, DUB, TXL, etc, from the states, you'll have to fly a 757-200 on CO. If you're going to CDG, MAD, LGW, and maybe onward to Africa or the Middle East, you can take a widebody from the states to those cities, then onward.

But if you're looking for convenience, and not having multiple connections, the EWR-secondary European destination flights have been a boon not only for CO, but those smaller markets who otherwise would not have nonstop service to the U.S.

And, again, you're welcome to your opinion, but the average Joe doesn't care, not does he even know the type of aircraft he/she is flying. As long as it has two wings, at least two engines, and is safe, they'll fly it.
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 20):
CO is pressing forward on a steady pace, even if some see it as slower than they would like.

Actually, CO was virtually alone in adding int'l capacity in the late 90s and into the early 2000s. They will find the sledding increasingly difficult as other carriers add capacity. They are certainly not in danger but their heady forward progress will slow because there are lots of other int'l airlines adding capacity. Every US airline is figuring out to wring just one more int'l flight out of their existing fleet.

Wow, now WorldTraveler states that CO has a disaster of a domestic system and that its international system will be pinched out by other carriers. Yeh, those 787's with a 20% lower operating cost will get killed by those old 763's.

These perils of wisdom coming from a proponent of a carrier that is digging its way up from a recent bankruptcy by using the same tactics that CO started using in the "late 90s and early 2000s". But DL, unlike CO, hastily jammed more international flights into JFK with domestically configured aircraft, trying to right the ship on domestic capacity. Undoubtedly, WorldTraveler was fully supportive of DL's misuse of 767 and L1011 aircraft in the past (MCO-ATL, etc.).

CO's fleet plan allows for economic changes by bringing on state of the art aircraft and having aircraft like the 762 (newer than DL's 767s) available for sale if times get tough. If they get tough for CO, they'll be tough for DL and the rest as well.
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Falcon84
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RE: Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:43 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 48):
Wow, now WorldTraveler states that CO has a disaster of a domestic system

Hardly a disaster. It may not be as big as UA's or DL's, but it moves CO's traffic around quite nicely. EWR and IAH are, basically, at max strength now, and CLE, from all indications, will start a buildup in the next year that will make it a viable alternative to CVG, DTW, ORD. The domestic compliments CO's very large international system quite nicely, thank you.  Smile
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