SiouxATC
Topic Author
Posts: 298
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Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:36 pm

While reading another current thread about international service at PHX, it made me think about LH returning to PHX. I know this has been on the rumor mill for awhile, and I personally thought that something would have been made public by now, but still nothing. I think that this would do well for LH because they could get feed from US, and I believe that even without that, there is enough O&D traffic to support the route. If I remember correctly the problem was that there wasnt enough premium traffic to support the flight. However, I believe with all the growing companies in the valley now it would be a different story. As far as I know filling up coach was never a problem...... I also know when LH ran the leased 763 they got murdered by weight restrictions in the summer.

I know that FRA is getting pretty slot restricted as of late. I think that this could start as a 4-5x weekly. Maybe with a A343, but would that be weight restricted in the summer months? I dont know if an A346 would be to much aircraft to start out with, but maybe after a couple of months. I dont think LH would put a 744 on this route to start with in a million years, but you never know. I know LH is short of a/c right now, so this could also be a factor. What about starting a MUC-PHX? I can actually see this happening, I know Im going to get flamed! But, with LH building the MUC hub I think this would be a good route to help that process. Their MUC hub is down right awesome and is a breeze to connect at. What do you guys think?
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:59 pm

LH has done PHX service while I was working at HP in 2003 with an A340. I think it was an 343, but I'm not too sure.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
BP1
Posts: 133
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:47 pm

Not only was the LH premium cabin load factors low but the connections were not fantastic via FRA. BA is doing a great job, except on Wednesday's, in getting people connected from PHX via LHR and many of the larger companies in the PHX area have upgrade contracts with American, United and Delta in which if they buy full fare Y they are upgraded to J for nothing - so the quesiton is, why dilute the yield and have a plane full of economy paying passengers. However, the BA flight is about 60-70% filled with inbound traffic to PHX. The PHX originating passengers are a lower percentage compared to the inbound pax.

LH's flight was a 340. In the late 1990's there was a 767 doing Phoenix - Dusseldorf (it could have been Munich) but it was not LH, it was a smaller German airline (wish I could remember the name).

Cheers,
BP1
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2884
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting BP1 (Reply 2):
In the late 1990's there was a 767 doing Phoenix - Dusseldorf (it could have been Munich) but it was not LH, it was a smaller German airline (wish I could remember the name).

LTU
.......
 
BP1
Posts: 133
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:33 pm

Yes - LTU - that was it, just could not remember that. Thanks!
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
 
SiouxATC
Topic Author
Posts: 298
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:37 pm

Quoting BP1 (Reply 2):
many of the larger companies in the PHX area have upgrade contracts with American, United and Delta in which if they buy full fare Y they are upgraded to J for nothing - so the quesiton is, why dilute the yield and have a plane full of economy paying passengers

Where do you get this information from?
 
BP1
Posts: 133
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:41 pm

Let us just say I have many colleagues on the Account Management side of the airline business and having negotiated several deals for BA to bring the flight in, some things have not changed.

Cheers,
BP1
"First To Fly The A-380" / 26 October 2007 SYD-SIN Inaugural
 
nycaross
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:43 pm

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:24 am

I used to work for LH in NYC and LAX. Word was that when LH started PHX flights, UA objected and wanted more flights to it's hub in DEN. Now that US is in the Star Alliance and can feed pax into PHX for flight to Germany, I think that it is only a matter of time before LH returns to PHX.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Nycaross (Reply 7):
I think that it is only a matter of time before LH returns to PHX.

I think LH will come back to PHX....Its just a matter of when.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:42 am

Oh, if only LH had some A330-200 aircraft. That would be ideal for routes like this one. My feeling is with the pretty well connected US hub at PHX, service to FRA could do fairly well. They make PDX work without connections. A330-300 doesn't have the range, and Lufthansa doesn't have A330-200s... (besides the ones with LX) so A343 it would have to be. A346 would be too much plane for starting up this route. DEN gets an A346 and that is a UA hub, and a large one at that.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
N383PA
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:09 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:18 am

I wonder, even if LH would consider to go back to PHX, if they would have a spare plane for it?

They just deployed 3 A340-300 to DUS for the summer schedule 2008.
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting N383PA (Reply 10):
I wonder, even if LH would consider to go back to PHX, if they would have a spare plane for it?

They just deployed 3 A340-300 to DUS for the summer schedule 2008.

For summer 08 they will have 5 additional 333s and 4 346s. So even using 3 343s in DUS they will have some new planes. Also 10 300s are converted for longhaul, that should free up some additional a/c for 08.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
N383PA
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:09 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting LH506 (Reply 11):
For summer 08 they will have 5 additional 333s and 4 346s. So even using 3 343s in DUS they will have some new planes. Also 10 300s are converted for longhaul, that should free up some additional a/c for 08.

Wow ,didn't know that LH would take 9 new long haul aircraft in 2008, plus 10 conversions for the A300. There won't be a lot of A300 for european and domestic services left then. Guess they will recruit a lot of new staff .
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:04 am

In reality the 763ER is a perfect sized aircraft for a route like PHX-FRA. What about Condor flying PHX-FRA? That's not out of the realm of possibility.
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:21 am

PHX-FRA is on US Airways wishlist once we get new widebodies. I would expect us to fly it before LH does again.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
FXMD11
Posts: 171
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 1:34 pm

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 13):
What about Condor flying PHX-FRA?


they do FRA-LAS already.
 
MMEPHX
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:54 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 14):
PHX-FRA is on US Airways wishlist once we get new widebodies. I would expect us to fly it before LH does again

I believe the new 330-200s are due to start arriving in 09 but I thought they were replacements for the 767s. Would PHX have to wait until the 350s come online in 2014 for US FRA service? Seems a long wait.
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
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RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:33 pm

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 16):
Would PHX have to wait until the 350s come online in 2014 for US FRA service? Seems a long wait.

I thought I read that Scott Kirby of US Airways said that it would be 2011 before US Airways could provide any long haul international routes out of PHX? Besides they seem to be in love with PHL anyways.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2884
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 16):
I believe the new 330-200s are due to start arriving in 09 but I thought they were replacements for the 767s.

Scott Kirby said the new A332s CAN replace the 762s, not that they WILL replace them. Since cabins on the 762s are being upgraded, expect the A332s to be growth aircraft for international markets.
.......
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 18):
Scott Kirby said the new A332s CAN replace the 762s, not that they WILL replace them. Since cabins on the 762s are being upgraded, expect the A332s to be growth aircraft for international markets.

Actually, this is the exact wording from the July 26, 2007 Fleet Update:
"The 10 A330s will FACILITATE the retirement of the US Airway's existing B767 fleet."

Quoting AirCop (Reply 17):
I thought I read that Scott Kirby of US Airways said that it would be 2011 before US Airways could provide any long haul international routes out of PHX? Besides they seem to be in love with PHL anyways.

I don't know about Kirby, but about a year ago, Parker said in answer to a press question, that PHX would not see European service from US until about 2011. At the time, the 350-XWB was not yet announced and the 2011 date was associated with the first deliveries of the original A350 Order. So if that is still Parker's position, PHX won't see US to Europe until at least 2014. There is more credibility to the 2014 date if US starts China in March/April 2009 as planned with 2 or 3 340s. These A340s will need to come from either a 2nd source Lease, or as an option against the 332 Order. If US cannot get the aircraft from a 2nd source and must acquire new ones from Airbus, that reduces the number of 332s to 7 or 8 - not likely enough to continue expanding PHL to Eastern Asia, replacing several of the older 767s on marginal and highly competitive routes, such as Athens and also providing 2 for PHX-Europe. Unfortunately, US's 767-200ERs, as discussed here many times before, can not fly PHX-FRA. I am still hopeful that AC canceled the TAM order for their 2- 340-500s and that these will be leased to US for China. There is an open argument on this subject and all I can show as support is that AC has not removed the two aircraft from major leasing listings and in fact updated the original September availability date to NOW, yesterday. Also, someone purported to be involved with AC operations, stated the TAM order was canceled in a Thread here last week.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
flyboyaz
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:32 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 18):
Scott Kirby said the new A332s CAN replace the 762s, not that they WILL replace them. Since cabins on the 762s are being upgraded, expect the A332s to be growth aircraft for international markets.

Yup that's what I read or heard too. The A350's are replacement aircraft...the new A330's would be growth aircraft and the 767's would start being retired around 2012 or so....we still have a while with them.
Catch a ride on a smile!
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20):
Yup that's what I read or heard too. The A350's are replacement aircraft...the new A330's would be growth aircraft and the 767's would start being retired around 2012 or so....we still have a while with them.



Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
Actually, this is the exact wording from the July 26, 2007 Fleet Update:
"The 10 A330s will FACILITATE the retirement of the US Airway's existing B767 fleet."

Regardless of what you heard or read, the only factual representation is in the official Fleet Update. A quote of which I posted above.,
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 2884
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2000 10:57 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
Actually, this is the exact wording from the July 26, 2007 Fleet Update:
"The 10 A330s will FACILITATE the retirement of the US Airway's existing B767 fleet."

Regardless of what you heard or read, the only factual representation is in the official Fleet Update. A quote of which I posted above.,

To facilitate the retirement of the 767s doesn't mean they for sure will retire them. It simply means the A330s will enable them to retire the 767s if necessary.
.......
 
caspritz78
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting SiouxATC (Thread starter):
I also know when LH ran the leased 763 they got murdered by weight restrictions in the summer.

Actually I think these flights were handled by Condor and its 767. A friend of mine is 1st officer at Condor and he told me about these flights to PHX. They couldn't fly back to FRA with every seat booked because of weight restrictions. Totally ridiculous. Wonder how the Condor flights to Las Vegas are done.
 
hush-kit
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2000 4:43 pm

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting LH506 (Reply 11):
Also 10 300s are converted for longhaul

my question just to avoid misunderstanding: The LH 300 are modified for long-haul, but that does not mean that LH will operate them over the big pond (Montreal, Boston could be within the range, remember some years ago AA flew the 300 over the big pond...) ? regards, Chris
 
vega
Posts: 1161
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:56 am

RE: Update Of LH And PHX?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 20):
Yup that's what I read or heard too. The A350's are replacement aircraft...the new A330's would be growth aircraft and the 767's would start being retired around 2012 or so....we still have a while with them.



Quoting Jmc1975 (Reply 22):
Quoting Vega (Reply 21):
Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
Actually, this is the exact wording from the July 26, 2007 Fleet Update:
"The 10 A330s will FACILITATE the retirement of the US Airway's existing B767 fleet."

Regardless of what you heard or read, the only factual representation is in the official Fleet Update. A quote of which I posted above.,

To facilitate the retirement of the 767s doesn't mean they for sure will retire them. It simply means the A330s will enable them to retire the 767s if necessary.

I never said it meant anything else. What is does refute is the claim I am replying to which states the A350s are replacement aircraft and the 332s are not.
We are but a moment in this vast Universe and when gone we will never have existed.

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