voodoo
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Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:41 pm

` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:15 pm

Well that's that.

I guess the demand for flying YYT-LHR just isn't big enough and travellers in St Johns have to accept that.

What's the big deal anyway in having to fly to YHZ first and then connect to AC flight 860? A 763ER is much more comfortable when flying the Atlantic than the much smaller A319.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
accargo
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:36 pm

Let the whining begin. Nflder's had a chance and didn't use it enough to make it profitable for AC. The politicians are already ranting away.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:37 pm

Air Canada knows how many passengers travel between Newfoundland and London. They have been flying the route for around 60 years!!!

The whole YYT-LHR A319 project was a very expensive experiment, and the outcome was pretty well cast in stone ... the business just isn't there. However, until a dedicated aircraft was placed on the route, there was no way to "prove" the business wasn't there. When the B767 flew YHZ-YYT-LHR, the YHZ station and the YYT station were competing for seats on the YYT-LHR-YYT sector, thus the leg was usually full.

In fact there is so much demand for the YHZ-LHR route, some passengers were travelling YHZ-YYT to get on the A319, YYT-LHR, when the nonstop was full.

Of course the big question, is why does Air Canada have to "prove" anything??? It appears that Canadians still haven't figured out that Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
RP TPA
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:53 pm

Didn't Air Canada modify a few of their 319s especially for long-haul over the water service? Can they now use those aircraft for, perhaps, Central or South America? Toronto to Caracas non-stop is one route that comes to mind.
 
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OA260
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:54 pm

Shame to see this service go. The TR that was done on here looked quite impressive.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 4):
Didn't Air Canada modify a few of their 319s especially for long-haul over the water service? Can they now use those aircraft for, perhaps, Central or South America? Toronto to Caracas non-stop is one route that comes to mind.

I believe two were mod'ed. I think HF radios, additional rafts, perhaps more fire suppression in the hold.

As for YYZ - CCS, this route is already served by 'regular' A319s on a triangle route YYZ - POS - CCS - YYZ, I believe 3 or 4x weekly. Believe the 'stock' birds have 909 minute overwater clearance and the location of the various islands along the flightr path ensures they stay legal.

As for YYT - LHR, well, unfortunate for Newfoundlanders & Labradoreans, but as LongHauler pointed out, AC is no longer a Crown Corporation and therefore has to earn its' way, and route selection & development has to be done on a dollars and cents basis. The slot for the A319 @ LHR would not be cheap and more revenue can likely be generated by allocating the slot to a 'full-size' a/c (if available) from larger domestic markets (if the traffic is there).

Astraeus also pulled out of YYT - LGW but I think are still serving YDF (Deer Lake) - LGW . Perhaps they will return to YYT seasonally.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:27 pm

All fairness, the timings were horrible..back into YYT after 0000 isnt good
 
MEA-707
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
Believe the 'stock' birds have 909 minute overwater clearance

909 minutes  Wow!, that's cool, they can use them for Antarctic sightseeing flights then  duck 
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
sebring
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
All fairness, the timings were horrible..back into YYT after 0000 isnt good

Most transatlantic flights have poor timings in at least one direction. I have never been enthused about arriving in London, Paris or Frankfurt at 6:30 a.m., when my hotel room won't be ready until after noon. The YYT-LHR timing was fine, just not ideal coming back, but if one is resident at YYT, at least he could go right home to bed.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 8):
Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
Believe the 'stock' birds have 909 minute overwater clearance

909 minutes Wow!, that's cool, they can use them for Antarctic sightseeing flights then duck


Ooppss...finger spaz there. 90 mins, of course. My bad.  Wow!
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:37 am

Air Canada, has to do whats right for them economically... If the route is that important to Newfoundland, why does the regional government not help subsidise the route. Especially if they feel it is vital for the regions economy and for tourism.

For a route with such limited appeal, I was surprised to see AC using up such a valuable slot at LHR. Where this sort of route would be more suitable to fly to LGW, STN or LTN as is nearly all O&D traffic.

Maybe Zoom or Canadian Affair, will pick up the route with a 757 and could operate as LGW-YYT-YHZ.

Or even a low cost carrier like ThomsonFly could fly the route. They like flying the longer sector routes which easyJet and Ryanair avoid. They are flying LTN-TLV this winter with a 738, which is a similar distance. Maybe we can see a 3-4 times weekly LTN-YYT route with a 752 or 738, next summer!  Smile
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 9):
Most transatlantic flights have poor timings in at least one direction. I have never been enthused about arriving in London, Paris or Frankfurt at 6:30 a.m., when my hotel room won't be ready until after noon. The YYT-LHR timing was fine, just not ideal coming back, but if one is resident at YYT, at least he could go right home to bed.

iwas thinking about possible connectings or even driving to Gander or other parts of NFLD. A traditionally timed flight would allow for a YYZ roundtrip as well. so YYZ-YYT-LHR-YYT-YYZ...that would be good use of the airplane.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:09 am

Its a business decision, nothing more. IF the city can't sustain it, there is no reason that the company should continue providing the service as a 'good will gesture'. AC left bankruptcy, i'm sure they want to not go down that route again, and having routes that are consistently not worth it are going to get the cut. Sure, people will be upset, but if it doesn't make money, its not goign to stay. Its not the end of the world that people will have to connect, if i want to fly to LHR, i have to connect somewhere too.
 
OB1504
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
I believe two were mod'ed. I think HF radios, additional rafts, perhaps more fire suppression in the hold.

Were they ever ETOPS-certified, or was it just a few simple modifications?
 
LHR777
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 4):
Didn't Air Canada modify a few of their 319s especially for long-haul over the water service?

apparently, two A319's are ETOPS-certified. C-GITP and C-GITR. I flew AC830 last week, on C-GITR. (The aircraft routes' YYZ-YYT-LHR). Cabin crew do YYZ-YYT-LHR on the same aircraft, Flight-deck arrive in YYT from YUL to do the LHR sector.

The aircraft was comfortable enough in J class. The new AC widescreen AVOD was awesome, I really enjoyed it and it helped time pass by very quickly indeed. I sat in 4J YYZ-YYT, and seat 2A YYT-LHR. The meal service is interesting - no menu's, but a choice of two entrees.

Here's a few pictures -

J-class Legroom


Breakfast, YYZ-YYT on AC690


AC's new A319 widescreen AVOD. The movie is 'Waitress'.


Final approach into St Johns


40 inches of legroom, in seat 2A. Plus Keri Russell in 'Waitress'.


The lunch meal-tray set-up. Garlic Bruschetta with goats cheese and a random 'salsa'. Cheese plate, butter and water biscuits. A delicious filo-pastry dessert, with raspberry coulis.


Main course entree - North Atlantic shrimp over Linguini with beans and lobster sauce
 
AC_B777
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Accargo (Reply 2):
Let the whining begin. Nflder's had a chance and didn't use it enough to make it profitable for AC. The politicians are already ranting away.

I haven't heard anyone whining or complaining about this other than this article. When AC made the announcement to fly this route with the 319, it was stated that it was only for the summer season.
There is good demand for the LHR route, the problem is that most people are using it as a connection point for other destinations. Most of the pax leaving YYT are going on other flights to YHZ,YUL,YOW and YYZ to fly to LHR but then connect onwards. It's no different than people flying to YHZ or YYZ from YYT. Most are only using it as a cnx point, not their final destination.
The times of the flight were not the greatest. The arrival time in LHR meant that one would have to spend the night there to connect to another flight. Something that most will not do.
AC should have continued the original B763 flights we had but reduce them to 3X weekly instead of spend the money to retrofit two 319's for the route. Actually, a supervisor told me last week that AC might bring back the YHZ-YYT-LHR flights this winter on a 3X weekly basis, but that's not confirmed.
Another problem we had with the 319 was cargo capacity. We lost a huge amount of space when the 763 was pulled from the route, something the 319 could not handle.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
In fact there is so much demand for the YHZ-LHR route

Not really. Many people were using YHZ as a stopover point for downline connections, not as a destination.

As for Astraeus, I doubt we will see them back in YYT. Their loads from YYT-LGW were ridiculously low. I remember some of our counterparts from Globe Ground telling us that some of the flights had only 6 pax.
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:46 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 6):
The slot for the A319 @ LHR would not be cheap and more revenue can likely be generated by allocating the slot to a 'full-size' a/c (if available) from larger domestic markets (if the traffic is there).



Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 11):
For a route with such limited appeal, I was surprised to see AC using up such a valuable slot at LHR. Where this sort of route would be more suitable to fly to LGW, STN or LTN as is nearly all O&D traffic.

The LHR slot pair used for the A319 service to YYT is pretty much useless to AC for any other service given the timings. The aircraft arrives at LHR at 21:25 and departs at 22:40, arriving YYT at 00:45. The YYT arrival time is late enough as it is. If the slot was used for a service further west (apart from maybe YHZ) then the arrival time would be even later and even more undesirebale.
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
accargo
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 16):
I haven't heard anyone whining or complaining about this other than this article. When AC made the announcement to fly this route with the 319, it was stated that it was only for the summer season.

It's Labour Day weekend, wait till Tuesday.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:59 am

All of Air Canada's A319's have life jackets ... this allows them to travel up to 400nm from a suitable landing area.

Five further, also have slide rafts, survival gear and HF radios ... this allows them to travel up to 75 minutes from a suitable landing area. These are the ones used on the Caribbean. Oddly enough, primarily for the HF radios, as only the furthest two easterly airways south of BDA require the slide rafts.

The two A319s for the YYT-LHR ops were heavily modified specifically for that operation. In addition to the above, they also have more capable cargo hold smoke/fire detection, 8.33 radio spacing, a second HF radio and as well, had the MTOW increased from 70,000 Kgs to 75,500 Kgs. This allowed operation up to 120 minutes from a suitable landing area.

All in all, these two birds are very capable, and I am interested to see if there are any plans which will use the capabilities.

That being said however, I would imagine the first thing to be done to them, will be re register the MTOW back to 70,000Kgs, as if even it is not being used, it does increase landing fees.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting RP TPA (Reply 4):
Toronto to Caracas non-stop is one route that comes to mind.

Toronto to Caracas (non-stop) has already operated on the A319 as a stand alone flight. It didn't meet it's passenger or revenue targets, was somewhat seasonal, and thus was combined with POS, currently operating YYZ-POS-CCS-YYZ.

Many threads have already argued (to death) that the time is right to resume operate both these routes (YYZ-POS & YYZ-CCS) as separate entity flights.
Above and Beyond
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:27 am

There may have been one aircraft to fit YYT-LHR nicely....

http://www.hank.ch/fake56.htm

Sorry, I couldn't resist!!!  Silly
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
In fact there is so much demand for the YHZ-LHR route, some passengers were travelling YHZ-YYT to get on the A319, YYT-LHR, when the nonstop was full.


Quoting LongHauler (Reply 19):
All in all, these two birds are very capable, and I am interested to see if there are any plans which will use the capabilities.

If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

I was just looking at the pictures above of the A319 flight LHR-YYT, and I would fly on them any day. The service and IFE looks great! It looks better than the older 752's flying across the Atlantic flying to the US and has a wider cabin! I don't understand people who have been knocking the A319's flying this route, when they offer a more superior service, and the route is shorter than for example BHX-EWR on a 752.

[Edited 2007-09-01 23:30:42]
 
OB1504
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

Do AC have the necessary LHR slots?

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
It looks better than the older 752's flying across the Atlantic flying to the US and has a wider cabin!

While it's certainly a better offering than most American carriers, the slightly larger cabin width of the A319 is barely noticeable.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 11):
For a route with such limited appeal, I was surprised to see AC using up such a valuable slot at LHR.

At the times the YYT-LHR-YYT flights operated, I don't think LHR slots are a serious problem.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 1):
What's the big deal anyway in having to fly to YHZ first and then connect to AC flight 860? A 763ER is much more comfortable when flying the Atlantic than the much smaller A319.

I think most passengers would prefer a 5 hour nonstop on an A319 than a connection via YHZ that takes almost twice as long (9.5 hrs.).

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
Of course the big question, is why does Air Canada have to "prove" anything??? It appears that Canadians still haven't figured out that Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation!

Yes, and there are many larger cities in Canada (some much larger, e.g. YWG, population 700,000) with no direct service to Europe (AC did operate YWG-LHR nonstop at one time, once or twice a week and seasonal if not mistaken). And how many cities in the USA with a population of 180,000 have nonstop service to Europe?
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 15):
Here's a few pictures -

Wow, that cheese plate looks very generous! yummy...
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
And how many cities in the USA with a population of 180,000 have nonstop service to Europe?

Exactly. I'm sure AC bowed to politcal pressure (surprisingly) to maintain the service. Outside of summer peak, the numbers are just not there. If the Government of Newfoundland wants to sustain this "vital link" to the U.K., then step up to the plate and subsidize the service to ensure operational profitability to AC if it is a matter of provincial importance.
Above and Beyond
 
N1120A
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
It appears that Canadians still haven't figured out that Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation!

Air Canada, does, however, still maintain some obligations to the government.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):

If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

First, it depends on the Air Canada configuration as to whether those aircraft have the range. Second, they would then have a significantly different service level standard, particularly in J class, if they ran an A319 alongside the 763ER.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
It looks better than the older 752's flying across the Atlantic flying to the US and has a wider cabin!

The cabin width difference is imperceptible

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
And how many cities in the USA with a population of 180,000 have nonstop service to Europe?

How many are that isolated from a hub, in the wrong direction, and have strong ties to the country? None.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
And how many cities in the USA with a population of 180,000 have nonstop service to Europe?

How many are that isolated from a hub, in the wrong direction, and have strong ties to the country? None.

But that's still no argument why a private company should be expected to operate an unprofitable route. As someone else mentioned, if YYT wants direct service to LHR, the city or provincial government can offer financial incentives and other subsidies as a few US cities have done to attract service to Europe (PDX and LH for example).
 
connies4ever
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Quoting LongHauler (Reply 3):
Of course the big question, is why does Air Canada have to "prove" anything??? It appears that Canadians still haven't figured out that Air Canada is no longer a crown corporation!

Yes, and there are many larger cities in Canada (some much larger, e.g. YWG, population 700,000) with no direct service to Europe (AC did operate YWG-LHR nonstop at one time, once or twice a week and seasonal if not mistaken). And how many cities in the USA with a population of 180,000 have nonstop service to Europe?

YWG - LHR was up to 5x weekly in the 70s, but now is a merely a Zoom market, 1x. Mostly I think YWG does not have a big biz market, not many HQs in the city, therefore a lot of VFR traffic, which has low yields. AC and others have concluded, probably rightly, that their metal is better deployed in other markets. The cnx via YYZ are actually pretty good, I use them myself.

Initially the YWG service was an enroute stop for LHR - YVR in the Super Constellation era (our family used it many times to get to/from YVR), then again with the DC-8-40s, which could not quite make YVR non-stop. When the -40s got better leading edges and the -50s came in, that wasn't a problem. Therefore YWG got bypassed more and more.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Acey
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):

If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

But no good for cargo and yields probably wouldn't be very high...in the short term, if AC wants more capacity on the route, they'll put an A330 in there.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Pboud0
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:18 am

YHZ does not need more capacity to LHR more seats would be a waste.
 
iaddca
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:21 am

very sorry to see this route go, even though I understand it from a business decision

was hoping to do an IAD-BOS-YHZ-YYT trip and then a 4 hr crossing next summer
 
polaris
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:39 pm

The St. John's - London-LHR route will probably be back next summer. This was intended as a seasonal service all along. That's what was mentioned in the media release announcing the service. None of this is news. Why the fuss now?
 
hmmmm...
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:46 pm

Those are some professional photos of the meal service. What camera did you use?
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:50 pm

If the flight is not doing all that great, then I can see why AC has stop the flights all together. If the goverment wants them to keep going with it, then they need to hand over some money to cover some of AC'c costs.

Chuck
 
Acey
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Pboud0 (Reply 31):
YHZ does not need more capacity to LHR more seats would be a waste.

From what I've heard, the plane was filling up on the non-stop flight. If it ever returns to running YHZ-YYT-LHR you can bet it's going to fill up year round.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
LHR777
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 34):
Those are some professional photos of the meal service. What camera did you use?

It's a Sony CyberShot DSC-T100.

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 25):
Wow, that cheese plate looks very generous! yummy...

It was really nice actually!

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
I was just looking at the pictures above of the A319 flight LHR-YYT, and I would fly on them any day.

Thanks for noticing my pictures. I'd also fly an AC A319 any day across the pond. Oh wait, I can't anymore...  Sad
 
nema
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
I think most passengers would prefer a 5 hour nonstop on an A319 than a connection via YHZ that takes almost twice as long (9.5 hrs.).

Just thinking about the range of the A319.. you give this as a 5 hour trip, lets say a significant headwind was apparent, how much more time is available on this aircraft even when adapted for this journey length?
There isnt really a dark side to the moon, as a matter of fact its all dark!
 
ManchesterMAN
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Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:57 pm

RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting NEMA (Reply 38):
Just thinking about the range of the A319.. you give this as a 5 hour trip, lets say a significant headwind was apparent, how much more time is available on this aircraft even when adapted for this journey length?

Well they routinely fly PHL-SFO for UA which is a good 200 miles further than LHR-YYT and there are longer routes flown by the A319 than that. In fact LHR-YYT is a pretty short route for the A319! As long as they've remembered to put enough gas in the tank at LHR a strong head wind won't cause any problems.
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting Polaris (Reply 33):
This was intended as a seasonal service all along. That's what was mentioned in the media release announcing the service. None of this is news.

The news release clearly indicates the route will not be back next year......

[Edited 2007-09-02 14:45:24]
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 22):
If the YHZ-LHR service is doing so well but does not require the heavy metal of a 763/333, how about a second daily service using one of these two A319's? This is still within about 700 miles of the aircrafts maximum range.

LHR-YHZ is not possible on an AC A319. The longest route currently flown by an AC A319 is YYZ-BOG, and thats pretty close to the maximum capability of the aircraft. LHR-YHZ is about 200 miles further.

Quoting ManchesterMAN (Reply 39):
Well they routinely fly PHL-SFO for UA which is a good 200 miles further than LHR-YYT and there are longer routes flown by the A319 than that.

One of the problems with comparing a North American range against an Atlantic range is routing. Within North America, one's routing is usually pretty close to optimum. Not just close to great circle route, but also the track can be varied for better winds, and altitude can be varied for optimum altitude.

These luxuries are not so available on the Atlantic. Routing must be within the NAT track system, and altitude (usually) will remain the same within the NAT track. Also, it is quite common not to get one's choice of altitude and track ... therefore additional fuel must be carried. And, the YYT-LHR-YYT timing was against the traffic both ways and routing and altitude were a prime problem, thus a lot of contingency fuel was carried.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Air Canada, does, however, still maintain some obligations to the government.

Yes ... the Air Canada Act. These restrictions are mostly language/cultural based keeping French spoken on the aircraft and headquarters within Quebec. None of these restrictions require Air Canada to maintain an unprofitable route, no matter how much some people really really really want it!
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LH423
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:19 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Air Canada, does, however, still maintain some obligations to the government.

LongHauler beat me to the punch. Most of Air Canada's 'obligations' have to do with compliance with the Official Languages Act, requirements that the head office be in the "Montreal Urban Community" (which no longer exists so I assume that must have changed to the City of Montreal), maintenance bases be maintained in Montreal, Mississauga (YYZ), and Winnipeg, ownership and control (not more than 25% of AC can be owned/controlled by a foreigner), amongst others.

For more info, reference http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/A-10.1///en?page=1

There are no obligations that AC continue to operate routes with no public subsidies that are unprofitable. AC is a publicly owned company and must respond to shareholders before city politicians.

I particularly like this passage: "Hickey said he believed Air Canada launched flights this summer to interfere with Astraeus's ability to pick up customers. "Since they weren't going to provide this necessary service, then no other provider, such as Astraeus, would be able to either."

As I recall, the goverments of Newfoundland and the City of St. John's BEGGED AC to restart services. Of course AC isn't going to start a new route in the winter so they waited until the Summer. Now they're criticizing AC for restarting the flights when another airline planned to do the same. So which is it? They're criticizing AC because they cancel the flight, then they criticize them for restarting them. Did AC's resumption of service result in Astraeus cancelling their flight as well? Quite possibly. Did Astraeus' presence on the route result in AC cancelling theirs? That's possible too. The fact is, even with tourism, YYT is a REGION of 181,000 (the city alone has slightly more than half of that number). There simply is not enough traffic to warrant a year-round non-stop. Yes, it's a pain for Newfoundlanders to have to backtrack all the way to YHZ, but unless the Nfld government wants to make some sort of break-even guarantee to AC on the route, I see no justification as to why AC should be obligated to operate a loss-making route into one of the most expensive and competitive airports in the world.

If YHZ-LHR does as well in the Summer as people here seem to speculate, why not throw on a seasonal A319 to run the traditional YHZ-YYT-LHR route. Sure, most will opt for the non-stop where available but an additional flight might soak up some of the extra demand and give YYT the seasonal connection. Of course, the timings may need to be reworked since a 1am arrival into YYT won't work if the plane still has to continue to YHZ.

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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 41):
The longest route currently flown by an AC A319 is YYZ-BOG

AC now uses the 762 on YYZ-BOG and it appears to be changing to the 763 for the winter schedule.

Quoting NEMA (Reply 38):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
I think most passengers would prefer a 5 hour nonstop on an A319 than a connection via YHZ that takes almost twice as long (9.5 hrs.).

Just thinking about the range of the A319.. you give this as a 5 hour trip, lets say a significant headwind was apparent, how much more time is available on this aircraft even when adapted for this journey length?

AC uses their A319s on many routes longer than YYT-LHR so it has plenty of range for such sectors. A few examples:

YYT-LHR 2012 nm.

YUL-SFO 2206 nm.
YYZ-POS 2197 nm.
YUL-LAX 2149 nm.
YYZ-BGI 2106 nm.
YYZ-SJO 2030 nm.
YYC-YHZ 2028 nm.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 41):

LHR-YHZ is not possible on an AC A319. The longest route currently flown by an AC A319 is YYZ-BOG, and thats pretty close to the maximum capability of the aircraft. LHR-YHZ is about 200 miles further.

The A319 was used on MIA-YVR, which is barely shorter than LHR-YHZ (about 50mi shorter).
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
The A319 was used on MIA-YVR, which is barely shorter than LHR-YHZ (about 50mi shorter).

See above with regard to Atlantic fuel planning vice North American fuel planning.
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voodoo
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:17 pm

Personally, I think the whole 'controversy' would be moot now if YHZ pax on the LHR-YYT-YHZ leg could have been made exempt from the regulation that made them waste time and energy going through customs at YYT. If they were avoiding the flight I wouldn't blame them.
But, apparently, the Nfld govt. used up all its political credit with the Feds, or probably had none to begin with, at the time this exemption was needed. Otherwise we might still be seeing 767 service and Astraeus, who Hickey never criticized for dropping YYT in early August (hmmmm), might never have entered the market in the first place. Meanwhile, as AC juggled with capacity, Zoom and Thomas Cook competition made an AC YHZ connection from YYT cheaper than the 319 flight could be had for anyway.
So, in a way , YYT's loss has been like an aircraft accident. A series of events and at least one (political) management mistake leading to a final conclusion: not profitable. It wasn't totally inevitable though, until the very end.
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aircanada014
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:17 am

You know would be interesting if AC decide to have the EMB190 fly across the pond? I guess it won't make it cause of the range and requires to refitt with stuff requires for flying over the water eh?
 
brilondon
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 32):
was hoping to do an IAD-BOS-YHZ-YYT trip and then a 4 hr crossing next summer

I would not be surprised if AC started the route up again next summer if they feel that the route could be profitable.  twocents 
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RE: Air Canada A319s To LHR: No More

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 47):
You know would be interesting if AC decide to have the EMB190 fly across the pond? I guess it won't make it cause of the range and requires to refitt with stuff requires for flying over the water eh?

Under no circumstance, based on the information provided by LongHauler, would the E190 be able to fly transatlantic.
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