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calpsafltskeds
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When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am

Looking at a map of the US, it doesn't make sense that WN does not fly to MSP. I can see that it would take a commitment of a score or more of aircraft, but what is holding them back? Gates, delays, weather?

Looking at WN's operation, they seem to saturate a market and usually run lower load factors than the industry standard. Will they look to reduce frequency to improve load factors and increase yield? Such a move could free up the aircraft needed to pursue MSP.

One would think WN could easily make money in the following markets:

WN hub airports that provide multiple connection opportunities MDW, BWI, STL, PHX, LAS
WN hub airports that provide mostly O&D: OAK, LAX,
WN focus cities with connection/thru opportunities: MCI, ABQ
WN focus cities that provide mostly O&D: SAN, MCO, TPA, FLL, SEA

With the location of MSP, it would appear that WN would not be looking to provide much through traffic or connection via MSP.
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futuresdpdcop
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
but what is holding them back? Gates, delays, weather?

I think everyone will agree.....it's those planes with the pretty red tails.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:33 am

Also, WN is not especially strong in the upper midwest apart from MDW. They typically don't open a station without at least 3 or 4 solid routes of fewer than 500 miles (PIT had 3, and that was probably pushing it). This is mainly for economic reasons, as WN needs to stimulate demand with low fares, and that's easier to do in shorter-haul markets. Yet that will even be hard at MDW, where fares are not especially high, and FL is already relatively entrenched on the route. Beyond that, where do they go? STL isn't especially attractive, nor are MCI or OMA. But those are the WN markets within that 500 mile range (IND is barely outside it, at 503 miles). So where does that leave WN?
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af773atmsp
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:34 am

Simple: Northworst Airlines

But I think WN (or should I say Southbest) could serve MSP once the Humphrey Terminal is expanded. There are many cities that WN could fly to/from MSP.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
juventus
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:36 am

ooooh yeah. I'm sure Northwest is looking for the 'Welcome' mat just about now.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:37 am

How about ATL..that has to be the largest market not served by WN
 
Cubsrule
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
How about ATL..that has to be the largest market not served by WN

See Reply 2, replace MDW with BNA, remove the comments on FL, and add the fact that WN isn't going to open a station just to fly to Florida (unlike some of its competitors). WN's relative weakness in the region is also a factor keeping them out of ATL.

However, at this time, the main reason WN cannot open ATL is a lack of available gates. When they get around to building the South terminal, it'll be interesting to see what WN does.
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af773atmsp
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:54 am

My family and I want to visit my aunt and uncle in SLC but fares on NW and DL are expensive. And we are definately not going to drive many hours from Minneapolis to Salt Lake City. If WN served MSP then my vacation to SLC would be more possible.
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burnsie28
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:04 am

I typically dont have a problem finding a good fare out of MSP, its usually on NW, of which I just recently got a multi city fare for $225 RT. If WN enters the market, I don't think that NW would be too worried they will probably price match if they had to, I was looking at fares a while back for a certain trip out of DEN and WN was by far the most expensive carrier. So once people realize that WN isn't all that they are cracked up to be its just going to be like DTW, minimal presense and effect if they ever did enter Minneapolis.
 
wingnutmn
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:20 am

If WN was to enter the MSP market, I believe SY would be more concerned about it than NW. WN could effectively destroy SY in MSP. Then, once that happens, NW would really take them on head-on. Also, I think that you would see alot more competition from FL in MSP if WN were to enter the MSP market. Most of the competition would come on the MSP-MDW run along with MSP-DEN (F9 would compete heavily) and MSP-LAS (US would be the heavy competitor here). I think the only routes that you would see NW get concerned on would be MSP-LIT, MSP-BWI and MSP-LAX. Albight alot of NW MSP-LAX route is for connections to either Asia or Hawaii.

WingnutMN
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AllegiantAir
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 3):
But I think WN (or should I say Southbest) could serve MSP once the Humphrey Terminal is expanded

But remember, US + Express, AA + Connection, F9, AC Jazz and UA + Express will be moved over to the expanded HHH terminal which may or may not leave enough room for new carriers such as WN.
Live to Fly.
 
pitops
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
How about ATL..that has to be the largest market not served by WN

I don't ever see them going to ATL. DL and FL have that market pretty much saturated. Where could WN fly from there and make money?

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
WN hub airports that provide multiple connection opportunities MDW, BWI, STL, PHX, LAS
WN hub airports that provide mostly O&D: OAK, LAX,
WN focus cities with connection/thru opportunities: MCI, ABQ
WN focus cities that provide mostly O&D: SAN, MCO, TPA, FLL, SEA

WN doesn't consider any airport a "hub". They are all focus cities.
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PanAm747
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:34 am

More than anything else, however, the issue is gate space. The Lindbergh terminal is almost maxed out, and NW would love to send every non-SkyTeam airline over to the smaller Hubert Humphrey Terminal. Plans are underway to expand and triple the size of the HHH Terminal, but that won't happen for quite a while.

Even when it does, WN doesn't enter a new station unless it has a certain number of gates, and at the moment, the allocation of gates may change depending on what the red tail dictates...er, "requests" from the MSP airport authority.  duck 

However, I was one of those people who didn't think that PHL, DEN, or SFO would ever be on Southwest's view, so anything is possible.
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caspritz78
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:42 am

MSP is NW country. Anyway I really think SY is doing a good job to get some competition into MSP. I hope we will see more of them soon.
 
SNCNtry32
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
MSP is NW country. Anyway I really think SY is doing a good job to get some competition into MSP. I hope we will see more of them soon.

Exactly.

The 12th of Never is when I heard WN will start serving MSP.
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iowaman
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
typically dont have a problem finding a good fare out of MSP, its usually on NW, of which I just recently got a multi city fare for $225 RT

Where, MSP-MDW-ATL-MSP? Someplace NW actually has to compete? On routes where they have an LCC sure they are cheap, but they charge a ton to fly to a lot of other places (ala SLC).

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
was looking at fares a while back for a certain trip out of DEN and WN was by far the most expensive carrier.

I bet you it was still relatively inexpensive and the reason it was cheap to begin with was because everyone else had to undercut WN.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:13 am

Quickly looking at MSP-SLC-MSP, Northwest wants $307 roundtrip.

That's not that bad at all, yeah it's not $80 roundtrip but it's reasonable. Every time I go anywhere it's at least $280 and usually $330+ out of EWR.
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N1120A
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):

Looking at WN's operation, they seem to saturate a market and usually run lower load factors than the industry standard.

Wrong

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
Will they look to reduce frequency to improve load factors and increase yield?

WN's yields are among the best in the industry, particularly system wide.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):

WN hub airports

Which don't exist

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
How about ATL..that has to be the largest market not served by WN

That would actually be New York City. ISP just doesn't count

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
WN's relative weakness in the region is also a factor keeping them out of ATL.

WN's relative weakness in what region? The South? You are wrong there. WN has the South well covered.

Quoting SNCntry32 (Reply 14):


The 12th of Never is when I heard WN will start serving MSP.

That is what people said about DEN.
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txagkuwait
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:28 am

Gary Kelly's mantra seems to be "back to the future."

I say that because the decision to add shorter haul (SFO-LAX, DEN-ABQ, DEN-OKC) rather than long haul stuff is taking WN back to its roots and, by extension, ehat it does better than everyone else.

That being said, I think MSP and ATL will happen when WN figures out a way to do them from a secondary airport.

In the case of MSP I think it will be STP, and in the case of ATL I think it will be MGE.

It isn't the entrenched hub carrier that worries WN as much as it is operating out of an airport where the entrenched hub carrier yells "frog" and the airport management jumps. Let's face it, there is "office politics" going on between airlines and cities everywhere, even with WN and some of their larger stations.....but there are some airport facilities where you really can't tell who is really in charge of the airport facility.

Now....as far as a trip MSP-SLC is concerned....an advance purchase ticket for $300 is nice, but what if I need to go Tuesday of next week and come back two days later? NW offers me as lowest fare for that trip of....$1258 RT. And that ticket isn't even refundable. Geez. If you had a WN in that market, you'd probably see a walk up, fully refundable, unrestricted Y fare of maybe $259 each way. Less than half what NW wants for a nonrefundable seat. So yeah, there is still room for some competitive improvement.

Someone asked where WN could fly from ATL that they could make money....since DL and FL have that one sewn up. Denver had lots of service too, including low fare service, but that has not kept WN from carving themselves out a decent size chunk of some pretty good markets. I have no doubt that they could do it in Atlanta.

And I know they could do it in Atlanta if they were able to offer passengers the option of not having to deal with the monstrosity that is Hartsfield.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 18):

Or maybe STC. Does STP have a runway long enough for a 737? And isn't that airport under sea level?
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RL757PVD
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 18):
in the case of ATL I think it will be MGE

good luck with that  Wink
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N1120A
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 19):
Does STP have a runway long enough for a 737?

More than enough.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 19):
And isn't that airport under sea level?

No, but why?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
af773atmsp
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:12 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):

Wasn't there going to be a wall that would keep the water from flooding the airport?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 19):
oes STP have a runway long enough for a 737? And isn't that airport under sea level?

STP is elevation 700 and approaches appear to be less hemmed in than than MDW. MDW's longest runway is about 30 feet longer than STP's.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
Will they look to reduce frequency to improve load factors and increase yield?

WN's yields are among the best in the industry, particularly system wide.

Tha t may be the case, but how does WN compare on similar stage lengths? It's kind of apples and oranges to compare a mainly short haul carrier to the legacies.
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N1120A
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 22):

Wasn't there going to be a wall that would keep the water from flooding the airport?

Yes, but it is 700 feet above sea level. It happens to be right next to the Mississippi River.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 23):
MDW's longest runway is about 30 feet longer than STP's.

Nope, it is actually nearly 200 feet shorter.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 23):

Tha t may be the case, but how does WN compare on similar stage lengths?

Favorably.
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SNCNtry32
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
That is what people said about DEN.

If anything, they will go to a secondary airport like STP like people have said.

Ill believe WN is coming to MSP when I see it... I don't see it happening anytime soon however..
Long Live Memphis!
 
md90fan
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 9):
I believe SY would be more concerned about it than NW. WN could effectively destroy SY in MSP.

Not really. Few routes exist that SY flies that WN would probably fly too (MSP-Washington D.C, Bay Area, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Orlando, Tampa, etc), the bread and butter of SY is their holiday routes and contracts with hotels, in addition to leasing out aircraft to airlines. Unlike WN, SY flies to many international destinations as well, effectively safeguarding them from NW and WN.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
How about ATL..that has to be the largest market not served by WN

Are you kidding? DAL,HOU,BNA,MCO and TPA are all large WN stations, heck even their BHM operation is something to be reckoned with.
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cjpark
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
Looking at a map of the US, it doesn't make sense that WN does not fly to MSP. I can see that it would take a commitment of a score or more of aircraft, but what is holding them back? Gates, delays, weather?

What is holding WN back from MSP?

They do not want to have to compete with NW on equal terms at the same airport.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
wingnutmn
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:08 pm

I believe the MAC has some agreement or understanding that STP will NOT be used for regular air carrier service. The only terminal on the field is the OLD St. Paul terminal, and the JetChoice, St. Paul Flight Support and MillionAir/Regent Executive Terminals. Not only that, but other than to demolish something existing, there is no room to build a terminal on that field now that the new levies and dikes are being built. STC or even better RST would really be the only options.

WingnutMN
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Lexy
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
WN focus cities with connection/thru opportunities: MCI, ABQ

You have totally left out BNA in this equation and I think that's stupid. MSP is one of the top destinations from BNA and if WN flew it, they would certainly make money doing so. BNA would also offer PLENTY of connectivity along with through for MSP pax.
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KarlB737
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting FutureSDPDcop (Reply 1):
it's those planes with the pretty red tails.



Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 3):
Simple: Northworst Airlines



Quoting WingnutMN (Reply 9):
Then, once that happens, NW would really take them on head-on



Quoting Caspritz78 (Reply 13):
MSP is NW country



Quoting Cjpark (Reply 27):
They do not want to have to compete with NW on equal terms at the same airport.

Lets see.....hmmm........how many years has WN been flying out of Northwest country at DTW. Has that been overlooked?
 
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coronado
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:25 pm

MSP is not a far out airport--straight line it is only about 8 miles to STP or 11 miles by road. MSP is not congested. It is running about 10-% less flights than a year ago. All that is missing is terminal and gate space and of course the willingness to take on NWA scorched earth modus operandi to run a successful operation at MSP. On the other hand they could probably accomplish getting into the market with a code share with SY-- probably the finest airlines in the US today./
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NWA320
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:35 pm

Northwest would kill them. They killed out Vanguard (used to fly them to Kansas City to visit family all the time for only $50!), they killed out Sun Country once (thank gosh there back in business). I wouldn't mess with them, especially now out of bankruptcy.
 
MMEPHX
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:14 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 24):
Nope, it is actually nearly 200 feet shorter.

According to airnav.com 13C/31C at MDW is 6522' as the longest runway. Runway 14/32 at St Paul Downtown (Holman) is 6491' long.....just 31' difference. More crucial though is that Holman is listed as closed to aircraft over 100,000lbs, which rules out any 737 ops. So WN would have to look at MSP or one of the 'outlying' cities/airports if it was to ever start service to the Twin Cities.
 
iowaman
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting NWA320 (Reply 32):
Northwest would kill them.

WN is a much larger airline than Vanguard was and has much larger cash reserves.

There is no doubt in my mind WN could have a decent sized operation in MSP. The feed alone from huge WN stations with large amounts of frequent fliers such as MDW, LAS, PHX, OAK, BWI, BNA, etc. going to MSP on business/leisure would be enough to fill a couple dozen planes I'm sure.
 
N353SK
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 19):
Or maybe STC. Does STP have a runway long enough for a 737? And isn't that airport under sea level?

STP has a runway that's 6000ish feet. Not under sea level, but it's definitely under the "mississippi river level" after heavy rains. Plus, I'm not sure it's wise to take away from STP's current purpose as a GA field.
 
PanAm747
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:34 pm

Let me also point out that SY's market is mostly Minnesotans. Most of their flights are not really timed for connections or decent arrival times at MSP.

As an example, SAN's flight on SY arrives at MSP at 12:05 AM. Not really conducive to San Diego business people, yes?

WN, should they enter the MSP market, would definitely time their flights for incoming and outgoing travellers.
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AlexPorter
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):

This is one of the more combative posts I've seen in a while that didn't really provide a "why" to the statements it was making.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):

Looking at WN's operation, they seem to saturate a market and usually run lower load factors than the industry standard.

Wrong

They do run on lower load factors since they attract flyers with frequency options on most routes, particularly the shorter ones, although they don't necessarily saturate markets.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):

WN hub airports

Which don't exist

Just because they don't call them hubs doesn't mean that they aren't really hubs. Southwest has three times as many passengers per year at Las Vegas than Northwest does at Memphis, and yet Northwest calls Memphis a hub, while Southwest calls Las Vegas a focus city, even though it's Southwest's largest operations base. So it's really a hub, just not in writing, so to speak.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 5):
How about ATL..that has to be the largest market not served by WN


That would actually be New York City. ISP just doesn't count

ISP is in Suffolk County, which is, according to the Census Bureau, part of the New York metropolitan area. The actual largest market not served by Southwest is Boston. PVD and MHT are not in the Boston metropolitan area, technically. But Atlanta is the second-largest metro area in the U.S. not served by Southwest.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
737tanker
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 37):
ISP is in Suffolk County, which is, according to the Census Bureau, part of the New York metropolitan area. The actual largest market not served by Southwest is Boston. PVD and MHT are not in the Boston metropolitan area, technically

I think you better have a talk with Gary Kelly, the CEO of WN. I have heard him talking to a group of WN employees and he said that WN is not in the New York City market and that WN doesn't consider ISP as serving New York City. He also said that for WN to serve New York City WN would have to be in LGA or JFK. As for the BOS market WN does consider MHT and PVD as serving BOS, they even advertise that service as serving the BOS market. That is something WN doesn't say about ISP. So again tell Gary Kelly that he is wrong when he says that ISP doesn't serve New York City and when he says that MHT and PVD do serve BOS.
 
bobnwa
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:58 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 37):
Just because they don't call them hubs doesn't mean that they aren't really hubs. Southwest has three times as many passengers per year at Las Vegas than Northwest does at Memphis, and yet Northwest calls Memphis a hub, while Southwest calls Las Vegas a focus city, even though it's Southwest's largest operations base. So it's really a hub, just not in writing, so to speak.

Alot of flights do not make a hub. Having banks of flights that cross feed each other make a hub. Southwest does not schedule its flights to cross connect to each other to a great degree. Thus it is a focus city.
 
presidential
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
So once people realize that WN isn't all that they are cracked up to be its just going to be like DTW, minimal presense and effect if they ever did enter Minneapolis.

I am sure that this has nothing to do with the fact that NWA signed a sweetheart agreement with the then commissioner of Wayne County (McNamara .. gee that name sounds familiar) that limited the expansion of Smith terminal in exchange for building the McNamara terminal .... the only reason WN has no presence in MSP or DTW is because of NWAs barely legal practices ..
 
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modernArt
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 39):
Alot of flights do not make a hub. Having banks of flights that cross feed each other make a hub. Southwest does not schedule its flights to cross connect to each other to a great degree. Thus it is a focus city.

Having banks is not at all necessary to have a hub. That just legacies way of doing things - a way that has lost them tens of billions of dollars.

A hub is simply an intermediate point where one can transition from their origin to their destination. It is nothing else.
 
bobnwa
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:04 pm

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 41):
A hub is simply an intermediate point where one can transition from their origin to their destination. It is nothing else.



Formerly on a.net as ModernArt, and now ModernArt again

As I pointed out, Southwest does not schedule its flights at intermediate points to make transitions from origin to destination. thus, no hub. Do you agree that if very few passengers connect, regardless of how many flights there are, it is not a hub?
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
WN focus cities that provide mostly O&D: SAN, MCO, TPA, FLL, SEA

WN doesn't do well at SEA and won't expand service there to several potentially lucrative city pairs due to the costs at SEA-TAC. You could say they have an axe to grind with the Port Authority of Seattle over this one.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Thread starter):
Looking at a map of the US, it doesn't make sense that WN does not fly to MSP. I can see that it would take a commitment of a score or more of aircraft, but what is holding them back? Gates, delays, weather?

There are many issues as to why WN will or won't go into a place like MSP. The biggest being that it is the home turf of NW, just as DL will vigorously defend ATL and CVG from them as well. Even at SLC WN doesn't do many potentially high O&D city pairs, not because they offer many connecting opportunities via PHX or LAS, but because DL is likewise so big there and they know they can't win a pissing contest with them.

Quoting 737tanker (Reply 38):
I think you better have a talk with Gary Kelly, the CEO of WN. I have heard him talking to a group of WN employees and he said that WN is not in the New York City market and that WN doesn't consider ISP as serving New York City. He also said that for WN to serve New York City WN would have to be in LGA or JFK. As for the BOS market WN does consider MHT and PVD as serving BOS, they even advertise that service as serving the BOS market. That is something WN doesn't say about ISP. So again tell Gary Kelly that he is wrong when he says that ISP doesn't serve New York City and when he says that MHT and PVD do serve BOS.

My thinking is that WN is now at a business plan crossroads, and increasingly for them future growth will be flights elsewhere than the "lower 48" since they virtually with the exception of a few key airports have everything covered. By 2009 there will likely be many threads on a.net speculating what cities in Mexico, Canada and the Caribbean that WN will be serving next.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
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modernArt
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 42):
As I pointed out, Southwest does not schedule its flights at intermediate points to make transitions from origin to destination. thus, no hub

Sure, point-to-point is their bread and butter. And that connections are a happy by product of their system. However, the schedule gurus in Dallas are smart enough to put Austin, Corpus, San Antonio , et al. flights into Hobby which coincidentially will connect perfectly to Birmingham, N.O., Tampa and elsewhere.

Someone in the past (on a.net perhaps) cited that 30% of all Southwest journies have an internediate connection. Happenstance? Unlikely. Phoenix, Baltimore, Nashville, Houston and Midway only can sustain only so much O&D on their own merits.
 
bobnwa
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 44):
However, the schedule gurus in Dallas are smart enough to put Austin, Corpus, San Antonio , et al. flights into Hobby which coincidentially will connect perfectly to Birmingham, N.O., Tampa and elsewhere.

For that reason, Delta could call it a hub, if they schedule flights that way. (small one). But if you don't schedule flights to cross feed, it is not a hub going by the generally accepted definition.
 
NWA320
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 36):
Not really conducive to San Diego business people, yes?

Yes, that's true, flying sun country I've noticed mostly leisure travelers.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 36):
WN, should they enter the MSP market, would definitely time their flights for incoming and outgoing travellers.

Yes, they would. And, us Minnesotans would love to fly WN! Especially since they fly to a lot of warm climate areas. I'd fly them to Texas, because you always get stuck on some Northwest or Continental flight.
 
txagkuwait
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:43 am

Quote:
There are many issues as to why WN will or won't go into a place like MSP. The biggest being that it is the home turf of NW, just as DL will vigorously defend ATL and CVG from them as well. Even at SLC WN doesn't do many potentially high O&D city pairs, not because they offer many connecting opportunities via PHX or LAS, but because DL is likewise so big there and they know they can't win a pissing contest with them.

I wanted to disagree with the poster who claimed that WN doesn't "do many high O&D markets in and out of SLC because of competition from DL."

In the single biggest O&D market from SLC WN is #1 and has a 2 to 1 margin over DL.

They are also a factor in the 2nd largest market (trail 50-42), the 4th largest market (in 2nd place, trail F9 31%-30 and ahead of DL by 9 percentage points), the 5th largest market (#1 ahead of DL 73-26), the 6th largest market (#1 ahead of DL by 68-31 pct), the 7th largest market (WN in 3rd place with 19% of a fragmented mkt, leader DL has 35%, but WN has pulled DL's average fare down to $177). In the 8th largest market WN trails DL 47-44 percent in market share. The Wright Amendment has kept WN out of the 9th largest SLC market and no LGB slots have kept them out of the 10th. In the 11th largest market you may have a point, WN offers no nonstops between SLC and SAN, yet they manage to carry 28% of that market on a collection of 1 stops and connecting flights. Southwest does lead (47-44) in the 12th largest market in/out of SLC, which is PDX..

I just wanted to point out that this poster's premise is wrong - Southwest hasn't really demonstrated any fear of DL in SLC, they do very well in the markets where they have chosen to put nonstop flights, and in some cases pull traffic from DL nonstops even though they offer only 1 stops or connections.



CITY1 CITY2 CARRIER PSGRS PSGR/DAY MKT SHARE AVG FARE

Phoenix, AZ Salt Lake City, UT --- HP --- 36600 --- 407 --- 24 --- $122
Phoenix, AZ Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 68670 --- 763 --- 45 --- $134
Phoenix, AZ Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 33780 --- 375 --- 22 --- $136
---
Los Angeles, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 73480 --- 816 --- 50 --- $136
Los Angeles, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 61730 --- 686 --- 42 --- $117
---
New York, NY Salt Lake City, UT --- B6 --- 15100 --- 168 --- 11 --- $190
New York, NY Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 88530 --- 984 --- 66 --- $265
---
Denver, CO Salt Lake City, UT --- F9 --- 39570 --- 440 --- 31 --- $93
Denver, CO Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 37310 --- 415 --- 30 --- $80
Denver, CO Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 26860 --- 298 --- 21 --- $96
Denver, CO Salt Lake City, UT --- UA --- 22070 --- 245 --- 18 --- $129
---
Las Vegas, NV Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 27690 --- 308 --- 26 --- $137
Las Vegas, NV Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 77480 --- 861 --- 73 --- $112
---
Oakland/Berkeley, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 57330 --- 637 --- 68 --- $125
Oakland/Berkeley, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 25950 --- 288 --- 31 --- $127
---
Chicago, IL Salt Lake City, UT --- AA --- 14510 --- 161 --- 18 --- $176
Chicago, IL Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 14950 --- 166 --- 19 --- $172
Chicago, IL Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 28160 --- 313 --- 35 --- $177
Chicago, IL Salt Lake City, UT --- UA --- 18180 --- 202 --- 23 --- $211
---
Salt Lake City, UT Seattle, WA --- DL --- 37510 --- 417 --- 47 --- $156
Salt Lake City, UT Seattle, WA --- WN --- 35330 --- 393 --- 44 --- $122
---
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 25950 --- 288 --- 42 --- $184
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX Salt Lake City, UT --- AA --- 24540 --- 273 --- 40 --- $204
---
Long Beach, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- B6 --- 42210 --- 469 --- 69 --- $104
Long Beach, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 17970 --- 200 --- 30 --- $101
---
Salt Lake City, UT San Diego, CA --- WN --- 16670 --- 185 --- 28 --- $164
Salt Lake City, UT San Diego, CA --- DL --- 39050 --- 434 --- 65 --- $193
---
Portland, OR Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 24950 --- 277 --- 43 --- $162
Portland, OR Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 28520 --- 317 --- 49 --- $124
---
Salt Lake City, UT Santa Ana, CA --- WN --- 5960 --- 66 --- 11 --- $135
Salt Lake City, UT Santa Ana, CA --- DL --- 46370 --- 515 --- 85 --- $152
---
Atlanta, GA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 35740 --- 397 --- 72 --- $350
---
Houston, TX Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 6580 --- 73 --- 14 --- $242
Houston, TX Salt Lake City, UT --- CO --- 19610 --- 218 --- 41 --- $241
Houston, TX Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 14760 --- 164 --- 31 --- $234
---
Orlando/Kissimmee, FL Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 11650 --- 129 --- 27 --- $198
Orlando/Kissimmee, FL Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 20030 --- 223 --- 46 --- $306
---
Salt Lake City, UT Washington, DC --- UA --- 5730 --- 64 --- 13 --- $240
Salt Lake City, UT Washington, DC --- DL --- 25980 --- 289 --- 61 --- $341
---
Baltimore, MD Salt Lake City, UT --- UA --- 4160 --- 46 --- 10 --- $187
Baltimore, MD Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 15860 --- 176 --- 39 --- $207
Baltimore, MD Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 17160 --- 191 --- 42 --- $185
---
Ontario, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 10080 --- 112 --- 27 --- $131
Ontario, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 25760 --- 286 --- 69 --- $143
---
Sacramento, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 4750 --- 53 --- 13 --- $146
Sacramento, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 29630 --- 329 --- 83 --- $145
---
Philadelphia, PA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 24250 --- 269 --- 70 --- $253
---
Boise, ID Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 13800 --- 153 --- 41 --- $128
Boise, ID Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 19430 --- 216 --- 57 --- $89
---
Salt Lake City, UT San Jose/Palo Alto, CA --- WN --- 7280 --- 81 --- 22 --- $134
Salt Lake City, UT San Jose/Palo Alto, CA --- DL --- 25220 --- 280 --- 76 --- $164
---
Boston, MA Salt Lake City, UT --- UA --- 3800 --- 42 --- 12 --- $261
Boston, MA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 19450 --- 216 --- 63 --- $376
---
Salt Lake City, UT San Francisco, CA --- DL --- 14100 --- 157 --- 46 --- $230
Salt Lake City, UT San Francisco, CA --- UA --- 15100 --- 168 --- 49 --- $206
---
Minneapolis/St.Paul, MN Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 6290 --- 70 --- 21 --- $311
Minneapolis/St.Paul, MN Salt Lake City, UT --- NW --- 14700 --- 163 --- 50 --- $269
---
St. Louis, MO Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 11430 --- 127 --- 46 --- $176
St. Louis, MO Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 9850 --- 109 --- 40 --- $184
---
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 2980 --- 33 --- 12 --- $221
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Salt Lake City, UT --- AA --- 3590 --- 40 --- 15 --- $204
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 9570 --- 106 --- 40 --- $325
---
Glendale/Burbank, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 7520 --- 84 --- 32 --- $137
Glendale/Burbank, CA Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 15200 --- 169 --- 64 --- $145
---
Salt Lake City, UT Tampa/St. Petersburg FL --- WN --- 3650 --- 41 --- 16 --- $194
Salt Lake City, UT Tampa/St. Petersburg FL --- DL --- 11030 --- 123 --- 49 --- $282
---
Reno, NV Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 8720 --- 97 --- 39 --- $134
Reno, NV Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 13350 --- 148 --- 60 --- $104
---
Detroit, MI Salt Lake City, UT --- NW --- 3200 --- 36 --- 15 --- $301
Detroit, MI Salt Lake City, UT --- F9 --- 5770 --- 64 --- 28 --- $176
Detroit, MI Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 5680 --- 63 --- 27 --- $303
---
Salt Lake City, UT Spokane, WA --- WN --- 8640 --- 96 --- 46 --- $116
Salt Lake City, UT Spokane, WA --- DL --- 9130 --- 101 --- 49 --- $158
---
Kansas City, MO Salt Lake City, UT --- WN --- 3510 --- 39 --- 19 --- $192
Kansas City, MO Salt Lake City, UT --- DL --- 6110 --- 68 --- 33 --- $283
Kansas City, MO Salt Lake City, UT --- F9 --- 3940 --- 44 --- 21 --- $157
Kansas City, MO Salt Lake City, UT --- UA --- 2700 --- 30 --- 15 --- $171
 
airbusaddict
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:13 am

Here is what would happen in my opinion:
If Southwest EVER started service to MSP, let me just make a few examples:
If Southwest starts an Indianapolis route from MSP (this is complete dramatization lol)
and o say, they were selling that route for 170 dollars. Its gonna be a battle of Monkey see Monkey do.
Southwest: 170 dollars
Northwest: 170 dollars

Whatever a competitng airline will do, Northwest will mimick and run them out! Get it straight!
Finally F9! FSD-DEN 7-4-2011
 
burnsie28
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RE: When Will WN Take On MSP?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting Presidential (Reply 40):
I am sure that this has nothing to do with the fact that NWA signed a sweetheart agreement with the then commissioner of Wayne County (McNamara .. gee that name sounds familiar) that limited the expansion of Smith terminal in exchange for building the McNamara terminal

Well Northwest paid for the terminal that McNamara decided to name after himself. Northwest doesn't recognize it as the McNamara terminal, rather the Northwest World Gateway.

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