as739x
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Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:07 pm

Virgin America flight 837 just executed an emergency landing at SFO. The flight departed 1L and ran into a flock of birds. They then proceeded down the bay and returned to SFO with no further incident. They were escorted in my the fire department and airfield safety. Condition of the aircraft unknown at this time.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
as739x
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:31 am

First word is a bird strike near the Captains window. Lots of blood and possible dent.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
as739x
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:30 am

Just confirmed that the aircraft has engine damage. Some of the fan blades are bent and torn up.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
EIDAA
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:38 am

Any idea which aircraft? Thanks for the information.
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DavidT
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:01 am

Do VX have an evening arrival at SFO? I was on the Stanford campus yesterday and saw what looked like a VX 320 making a turn ready to land at SFO. Would this be the same a/c that got struck this morning?

I will be at the international terminal in sfo later today and will see if I can see anything (if the plane is near the terminal and not in a hangar somewhere)
 
xpfg
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:11 am

I just went and checked out the aircraft. The tail number is N621VA, or Air Colbert as they call it. After i just did a walk around of the plane, there is a significant amount of blood spatter on the captains window, with some blood spots on the nose as well. No cracks in the windows though.

On the #2 engine there is plenty of blood, guts, and feathers, and aside from a very nasty smelling engine, there are a few fan blades bent, but not a whole lot. i have a picture I took of inside the engine that I will post later.

[Edited 2007-09-03 20:24:43]
 
as739x
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Xpfg (Reply 8):

Thanks for going over, I couldn't get out of the office.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
bok269
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:40 am

Ouch. At least it wasn't something they could control. Any idea on how long it will be out of service?
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Evan767
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:48 am

Ahh yes, I can see it on the Colbert Report now...
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
tozairport
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 11):
Ahh yes, I can see it on the Colbert Report now...

Virgin America deliberately killed Steven Colbert's son in retaliation for the interview with Branson last week. Does SRB know bounds to his evil? That poor young eagle had just barely learned to be sarcastic!

TIC TIC TIC TIC TIC TIC TIC TONGUE IN CHEEK TIC TIC TIC

(lest anyone think I'm serious here). Glad everyone was OK.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:14 am

....just one of several dozen yet to come this fall. Bird Strikes are VERY-VERY common this time of the year. So common that in fact many ATIS reports will state bird activity in the area.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
EIDAA
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Xpfg (Reply 8):
I just went and checked out the aircraft. The tail number is N621VA, or Air Colbert as they call it. After i just did a walk around of the plane, there is a significant amount of blood spatter on the captains window, with some blood spots on the nose as well. No cracks in the windows though.

On the #2 engine there is plenty of blood, guts, and feathers, and aside from a very nasty smelling engine, there are a few fan blades bent, but not a whole lot. i have a picture I took of inside the engine that I will post later.

Many thanks Xpfg, I work for the leasing company involved with that aircraft... the reason for asking. If you can upload the photo later that would be great. I will try and get some more information from my guys at VX in the morning anyway. Again, thanks for confirming.
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SFOMB67
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:07 am

I see they got another acft and departed SFO about 3 hrs late and it delayed the 9:10 flt, LAX- JFK 3 hrs. Kinda surprised they were able to cover this so fast. They must have a spare?
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
wingletsman
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:01 am

already an accident to add to the list on Wikipedia!! lol!!
:]]
winglets
 Wow!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting Wingletsman (Reply 13):
already an accident to add to the list on Wikipedia!!

Bird strikes are not accidents... just a common everyday fact of life.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
rikkus67
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:19 pm

RE: birdstrike

Glad the plane landed safely! I pity the crew that gets to change the engine and windshield!

RE: Colbert report

IIRC, Steven Colbert's parents were killed in an airline crash... best not to roast him on here....
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:36 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 14):
Bird strikes are not accidents... just a common everyday fact of life.

I would consider a bird strike an accident if it causes a plane to make a hasty landing and requires repair. Just because it happens frequently at certain times of the year or in certain areas would not disclude it from being an accident, in my books.

More serious than two A/C coming in contact with each other on the ground, I would opine.
I come in peace
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 16):
I would consider a bird strike an accident if it causes a plane to make a hasty landing and requires repair. Just because it happens frequently at certain times of the year or in certain areas would not disclude it from being an accident, in my books.

It's not considered an accident as mentioned since this is something that could not have been prevented via training, procedure, or with the aircraft itself.

This is like saying a lightening strike is an accident.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
xpfg
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 11):
If you can upload the photo later that would be great.

Yep, here ya go. The stench was pretty gnarly! The fan blades were rotating, so I didn't really catch any of the selected few that were bent, but they are in a pretty funky twist! There were about 4-5 blades that were a little out of whack.

The picture dumbs down some of the stuff blood and guts wise, but I did this quick and had to go! The portion of "dirt" on the white area is actually bird too. Haha...see ya!

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 480 File size: 47kb
Virgin America N621VA Bird Strike
 
B6FA4ever
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:04 pm

R.I.P little bird....

but seriously. bird strikes are no fun. i remember having one a couple years ago. this happened on my LGB - OAK flight and thankfully it was right at landing. i remember as we were braking to slow down...the stench of bar-b-que'd bird came into our back galley. plane was grounded of course to get fixed and we had to delay our return flight back to LGB about 3 hrs or so waiting for the spare plane to come in from LGB and we work it back. apparently it was 2 seagulls that were the victims of this incident.

~B6FA4ever
 
tozairport
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting Rikkus67 (Reply 15):
IIRC, Steven Colbert's parents were killed in an airline crash... best not to roast him on here....

True enough...

From Wikipedia:
"On September 11, 1974, when Colbert was ten years old, his father and two of his brothers, Peter and Paul, were killed in the crash of Eastern Air Lines Flight 212 while it was attempting to land in Charlotte, North Carolina. They were en route to enroll the two boys at Canterbury School in New Milford, Connecticut.[7][11] "

However, I don't think anyone was roasting Colbert. Even if they were though, considering the nature of his show and the banter he had with SRB last week, I don't think anything said here has been distasteful. I obviously don't know the man but I think of all people he would be able to take a little roasting OK.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 17):
This is like saying a lightening strike is an accident.

It's my humble opinion that a lighting strike is also an accident, if the A/C is impaired.

I believe we are on a slippery slope if we seek to categorise something as "unavoidable" and therefore routine, so as to ignore the apparent hazard. Or to suggest it is not a hazzard because it is commonplace.

We might consider the same types of deterrents that grape farmers use to deter birds (pieces of tin foil), or we could drain swamps adjacent to runways. If this is environmentally incorrect, we could create artificial swamps some miles away from the airport in question.

As to lighting, apparenty we are somewhat cavalier regarding how we operate around thunderheads. This is why we see accidents regarding windshear or lighting that may have otherwise be prevented. My understanding is that airlines in Southeast Asia operate routinely during typhoons (is that correct) or at least in extreme weather because such weather is so common there. Recently we witnessed a horrible disaster in Southeast Asia on take-off where weather was a primary cause.

I understand that at Orly or CDG, there were once large jet engine fans positioned next to runways that were designed and used to blow away fog prior to an arriving A/C landing. My point is that natural hazzards exist, and we can address almost all of them.

Also, I would suggest we must have the technology to monitor potentially active volcanoes so that 747s won't fly through plumes of ash and lose all 4 engines. Would a 747 that comes down due to volcanic ash be considered to not be in an accident, just because volcanic ash is not in the training manual?

I would suggest it's a better course to try and address saftey issues which might conveniently be considered acts of God, and therefore unavoidable. I remember that the shuttle program was once considered by some NASA scientists as to have entered an "operational" or "routine" stage, but they changed their tune quickly after the Challenger disaster.

If lighting strikes and bird strikes are officially not considered accidents, then I respectfully disagree, and I would suggest it takes a dangerous attitude to define them as such; a form of denial, really.

With sincere respect.
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Maverick623
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):
Bird Strikes are VERY-VERY common this time of the year. So common that in fact many ATIS reports will state bird activity in the area.

Just had a bird strike pull into my gate this afternoon... I think it was US287 DEN-PHX-SJC, the outbound to SJC took a 45 minute minute delay to make sure nothing was seriously damaged, which it wasn't. Just some blood and gut splatter on the outside of the #2 nacelle.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:00 pm

I recall that an governing safety body (FAA? NTSB?) was doing a series of tests of bird strikes on A/C by shooting grocery store chickens out of a specially made canon into a running engine, or onto an A/C cockpit windshield.

Another agency (from another country, or from an airline?) was also trying to do the same testing, but with disastrous results; huge damage to A/C engines, gaping holes in leading edges, and completely blasted out windshields.

They frantically wrote a memo or sent a telex to the FAA: "What are we doing wrong? Can you help us?"

A return memo was dispatched:

"Thaw the chicken."



(Ed. note: This is a true story, but some details may be incorrectly recalled)
I come in peace
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 23):

I've seen that video in A&P school, that was fun to watch! Lots of icky damage occured on that!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:33 pm

ive had so many birdstrikes....it's so common nowadays....damn birds lol


the cfm 56 is really good at spitting them right out  Wink
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:07 pm

Here is a good video of what an bird ingestion looks like on a 752 for those who have never seen one.

A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
EIDAA
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Xpfg (Reply 18):
Yep, here ya go.

Thanks for the photo. Our guys in the US were notified of the birdstrike yesterday. Obviously I can't give too much detail on here, but they were going to borescope the engine last night to see if there was any core damage. If not, it will hopefully just be a bunch of fan blade replacements.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 17):
It's not considered an accident

As you probably know, the government's definition of an accident is "an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage"

I fail to see how this occurrence is not an accident. Certainly, the aircraft was substantially damaged.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
I fail to see how this occurrence is not an accident. Certainly, the aircraft was substantially damaged.

I am very familier with that, but the NTSB will not consider this substantial damage because of CFR49 Sec 830.2 page 184:

It states:

damage to landing gear, wheels, tires,
flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered
''substantial damage'' for the purpose of this part.

since there was no loss of life and the engine only had engine accessory damage this will be categorized as an Incident only.

here are 2 examples from the NTSB Database, in the second case the engine even cuaght fire, and it was still classified as an incident.


http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030423X00550&key=1

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040921X01471&key=1

[Edited 2007-09-05 00:53:38]
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Cubsrule
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 29):
since there was no loss of life and the engine only had engine accessory damage this will be categorized as an Incident only.

...assuming there's no damage to the engine itself, which we don't know. Nonetheless, your previous definition of accident is incorrect.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 17):
It's not considered an accident as mentioned since this is something that could not have been prevented via training, procedure, or with the aircraft itself.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):
...assuming there's no damage to the engine itself, which we don't know. Nonetheless, your previous definition of accident is incorrect.

Take it up with the NSTB then, I found 10 pages of Incidents for this kind of thing, but I guess you think they don't know what they are talking about either even after Iposted the actual section and giving examples of even worse bird strikes being classified as incidents. Did you not read this one:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040921X01471&key=1

"NTSB Identification: CHI04IA260.
The docket is stored in the Docket Management System (DMS). Please contact Records Management Division
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier American Airlines Inc
Incident occurred Thursday, September 16, 2004 in Chicago, IL"


" The left engine immediately seized and a fire warning ensued." The crew successfully extinguished the engine fire and returned to the departure airport for an emergency landing. Examination of the engine revealed that the fan module sustained damage during the event. The module rotated approximately 45-degrees which pulled the fuel line to the fuel/oil cooler loose. Observed fire damage was in the area of the fuel/oil cooler."



It was an Incidient, always has been, always will be.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:13 am

I guess I'm a bit confused. As you point out, the regulation you cite above is pretty clear, but it appears the NTSB is not following it (there's no way that a fuel line attachment of any sort is an "engine accessory" within the meaning of the regulation). What gives?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
EMBQA
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 31):
Take it up with the NTSB then, I found 10 pages of Incidents for this kind of thing

A bird strike is NOT an accident. In the NTSB report you used there is one key statement that mandated that case as reportable.....The left engine immediately seized and a fire warning ensued. Had they not received the fire warning this would have been just one of several hundred bird strikes that occur every year. In my 12 years in commercial aviation I have seen well over 200 cases of bird strikes and only two are classified as accidents.. one because the plane depresurized... the second was the well know Mesaba SF340 that hit a flock of Snow Geese and caused the Capt's wiper blade to depart, strike the LH prop and get shot like an arrow puncturing in the fuselage and hit a passenger like a spear in his leg.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 33):
A bird strike is NOT an accident.

You mis-qouted me, I was the one pointing out a bird strike is an incident most all the time, you need to be careful with that "Quote Selected Text" button!

I also agree that it's an incident as I pointed out.

The reference was an INCIDENT.

Cubsule was the original quote I think you wanted to use.


Cubsrule, to answer your question, I wouls send an email to the NTSB for real, there appears to be some "finesse" involved.

[Edited 2007-09-05 23:24:52]
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Virgin America: Emergency Landing At SFO 9/3

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 34):
Cubsrule, to answer your question, I wouls send an email to the NTSB for real, there appears to be some "finesse" involved.

I think I might. What I'm wondering is whether there's some regulation somewhere that categorically defines a bird strike as an incident. It's pretty clear that something besides that regulation you cited is controlling. The question is whether it's another regulation or just the NTSB finessing things.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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