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Buyantukhaa
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Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:59 pm

Fair use excerpt:

Quote:

A Swiss court has found four employees of an air traffic control firm guilty of manslaughter over the deaths of 71 people in a mid-air collision in 2002. Three of the four managers convicted were given suspended prison terms and the fourth was ordered to pay a fine.

Another four employees of the Skyguide firm were cleared of any wrongdoing. Prosecutors had said a "culture of negligence" at the firm contributed to the mid-air collision, which killed mostly Russian children.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6977136.stm
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acidradio
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:08 pm

By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!
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777STL
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!

IIRC, one of the controllers was killed by the father of one of the victims....
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PADSpot
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:16 pm

Huh ... when I read the headline I thought those people were sentenced midair ...?

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!

I think it teaches you enough if you have to spend to rest of your life knowing that 71 people, mostly children, died - partially because of your negligence. The controller who was mainly responsible for the crash has been murdered by a father who lost his two children and his wife in the crash. The father got jailed for eight years. Even for European proportions a fairly low sentence. It shows how much misfortune was involved here ...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:27 pm

That's called "risk management". How much do you have to pay to have sufficient staff and proper tools and how much dio you save if you understaff your facility and don't give the employees the tools they need to do their job properly.
How high is the risk that an accident can happen due to this and what will the company have to pay then. I'll bet all the damages were paid by insurance companies anyway.

These verdicts were a really great way to teach the management not force their staff to accept unacceptable risks. Yeah sure

Some years ago a semi truck driver with 30 tons of gasoline in his trailer lost control over his truck after the trailer's brakes failed going down a steep decent into the small town of Herborn in Germany. The truck fell over in the main street, right in front of a coffee shop and exploded, killing numerous people. The driver managed to escape from his cab just before the explosion.
During the subsequent trial, the owner of the trucking company, the driver and the chief mechanic were accused of negligience and manslaughter, because it was known to all that the brakes of the trailer were defective.
The mechanic was aquitted, because he could prove that he warned both his boss and the driver not to take the trailer.
The boss got sentenced to the highest punishment, several years in prison, for forcing the driver to accept the trailer.
the driver got a lesser sentence, because it was seen by the court that he was under immense pressure not to loose his job, because, had he refuse to take the trailer, the boss had threatened to fire him under some pretext.

Jan
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 3):
Huh ... when I read the headline I thought those people were sentenced midair ...?

Sorry, I was trying to be concise...

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 1):
By making only one of the eight people pay a fine and no prison time for anybody, that'll sure teach them!

I can see that people will find these sentences disappointing, especially the relatives and friends of the people who died. But as you know, criminal sentences are uncommon in aviation, as it would deter people from cooperating in investigations. Criminal trials are held only in case of bad intent or gross negligence. The latter seems to have been the case here. What sentence would be adequate for such negligence I find impossible to say - but suspended jail sentences might be insatisfactory, yes.
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PYP757
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:21 am

"Seven had continued working for Skyguide until the time of the verdict."
The question now is whether they will continue being employed after the verdict, or instead be fired. Sure, losing one's job is not as bad a punishment as going to jail, but it would still be better than nothing.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Some years ago a semi truck driver with 30 tons of gasoline in his trailer lost control over his truck afte

By the logic of that sentence, the authorities who planned the road that way should have been sentenced as well.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 6):
The question now is whether they will continue being employed after the verdict,

This is Europe. In Germany, "Life" means 15 years and that is the most you can get for murder, unless you pose a special threat for society under which 20 years may be possible. One of the worst terrorists, who has not changed a bit in his thoughts and not regretted a thing, is due for parole after 25 years next year.

The Skyguide managers have been convicted for gross negligence, they had no previous sentences and there is no danger of repeat actions, even if they stay in their jobs.

ADAIK, the manager of that Airline has not even been put on trial, although I consider it gross negligence, when TCAS is installed in an aircraft and the flight crews are not properly instructed and advised in the use.

One could say, where is justice here? The father who killed tha controller hit the wrong target. But then,looking at his sentence (8 years), he probably knew why.
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PADSpot
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
In Germany, "Life" means 15 years and that is the most you can get for murder, unless you pose a special threat for society under which 20 years may be possible.

Not exactly true, 15 years is the minimum length after which the inmate CAN be released on parole. If court determines a special severity of the felony the 15 year-rule does not apply and people usually serve for 18-25 years. However, if court decides you stay in prison because the felony was that severe or because you did not behave, you stay in prison. Last thing I read was, that the longest serving inmate in Germany is in jail since 1957. Prisoners who pose a thread to the public after being released can be kept in security detention in a max-security mental home. I visited one about 8 years ago and I must say I would rather be in a prison. An extremely scary place to be ...
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
although I consider it gross negligence, when TCAS is installed in an aircraft and the flight crews are not properly instructed and advised in the use.

That was not the fault of the airline, but due to the fact that the Russian regulations on this point are different from the rest of the world (if in Russia ATC gives instructions contrary to TCAS advisory, ATC is given priority). This screams for ICAO intervention, if it hasn't been done already.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:09 pm

Refesh my memory, which crash was this? Did it involve the DHL 757?

DeltaGuy
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sandrozrh
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 8):

Verwahrung is the magic word  Wink
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 10):
Refesh my memory, which crash was this? Did it involve the DHL 757?

That one indeed.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20020701-0

Edit: let me include the accident investigation reports:

Report

Annex 1 and 3

Annex 2 and 4-10

[Edited 2007-09-05 15:29:21]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Some years ago a semi truck driver with 30 tons of gasoline in his trailer lost control over his truck afte

By the logic of that sentence, the authorities who planned the road that way should have been sentenced as well.

Why? The road was perfectly safe if one used a roadworthy vehicle with working brakes. This is why we have the annual roadworthiness and brakes inspection for heavy goods vehicles in Germany. If the boss insists and threatens an employee with sacking him over some pretext to take a known unsafe vehicle, because he is greedy and wants to earn more $$$, then IMO he is the main reponsible person in this affair. And the same should IMO apply to the management of Swissguide. After all they made a pretty penny extra by keeping their facility understaffed.
In the end it is just greed.

Jan
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PanHAM
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):

Why? The road was perfectly safe if one used a roadworthy vehicle with working brakes

wrong, you have to include in your plannings that trucks without working brakes may use the road. Murphy's law.

But that is not the topic, only your comparison shows how much more advanced airline security can be over road security.

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 9):
That was not the fault of the airline, but due to the fact that the Russian

I know that. So the logic conclusion is that the responsible people in the Russian authorities should have stood trial for gross negligence as well.

What angers me in this case is that in the public Skyguide and Germany (because German authorities outsourced the control in that area to Skyguide) are given the sole responsibility and the Russians and Bashkirian are he snow white innocent victims.

They are not-.
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acidradio
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:30 am

What happened to the days when we just blamed God or society for these mishaps?
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PanHAM
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 15):
What happened to the days when we just blamed God or society for these mishaps?

They're both still on the list. The difference between the old days and now is that people have opinions and a media to spread their opinions in seconds.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Four People Sentenced In Midair Trial

Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 15):
What happened to the days when we just blamed God or society for these mishaps?

Those days are history, as well as their high accident rates. Getting to the core of the problem and acting on it reduces the chance of an accident happening again. Granted, jailing people is unlikely to have much of an impact on aviation safety, but accident investigation and subsequent recommendations and actions certainly do.
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