daron4000
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Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:40 am

I am often confused about which airlines in Business class offer a true flat bed vs. a sloping "lie-flat" bed. Sometimes, advertising makes it seem that it is fully flat when in fact it is lie flat. This has happened to me with both Austrian and Iberia, where it seemed like the seats were fully flat from website images but actually, according to A.net pictures, they sloped. So this list is here for the definitive decision on airlines with a Full Flat Bed in Business class. Please help me out by seeing if there is anything I have forgetton or am mistaken about. Thanks so much!

Full Flat J:
BA
VS
NZ
AC
SAA
CX
SQ
Etihad
Jet
UA (Soon)
QF (Announced)
DL (Announced)
Tam?
Kenya Airways?

[Edited 2007-09-09 00:42:08]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:01 am

I don't know about the others, but CX is only implementing its new interior config at the present time.

Only a handful of A/Cs currently have the new olympus cabin with the fully lie flat J seats.

(AFAIK; 2 747, 2 A330 and the first 777-300ER in a few days)
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LipeGIG
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 1:06 pm

TAM (JJ) is really flat-bed on A332 fleet only. M11 is another story.
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koruman
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:07 pm

SQ most certainly is not.

I recently flew them from Australia to Singapore to London, and only Singapore-London was in a flat, horizontal bed. The PER-SIN, HKG-SIN and SIN-BNE products were a disgrace.

Of your list, I've only found NZ, VS and BA to be outstanding.
 
Airbus767
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:21 pm

LAN is in the process of removing First & Business and implementing their new "Premium Business" class in all their 767s, which feature lie-flat seats. All their 767s will have them by May 2008, and then after that they'll begin with their 340s . Here's a cool page with more info, but its in Spanish: http://www.lan.com/files/info_viajes...as/html/index_minisitio-es-cl.html
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CXfirst
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:57 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 3):
SQ most certainly is not.

The new one is fully-flat.

There is no real difinitive list. Reasons are that some airlines have regional seats, older style, domestic business seats, while some of the seats are lie-flat.

Example: SQ could be put on the list or off it, same applies to CX, etc.

-CXfirst
 
flytuitravel
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:32 pm

 
PA101
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:36 pm

www.seatguru.com will help in telling what aircraft of what carrier have true-lie-flat beds.
 
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OA260
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:22 pm

From the end of this month BD will start introducing fully flat beds on their A330's.
 
DABTH747
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Daron4000 (Thread starter):

OS has them in the 763 and 772's..
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:21 pm

What about LH?

Hunter
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PHKLM
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting DABTH747 (Reply 9):
OS has them in the 763 and 772's..

Aren't these lie-flats ISO full-flats?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting Daron4000 (Thread starter):
What about LH?

LH is slopey-flat, not fully flat, in J. It's OK but not the same as proper flat bed e.g. NZ/AC.
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cloudyapple
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:47 pm

Fact is everyone is in the process of changing over. No airlines have a whole fleet of full flats.

Makes more sense if you ask who has firm plans to change over to full flats.
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planemad
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:19 am

VS has all of their a/c with the UCS now! Well they did up until they got G-VSUN back a couple of weeks ago!!!

Sam D  Smile
 
daron4000
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:38 am

Thanks for the help so far. The reasons for compiling this list was to get a sense of which airlines actually have truly flat seats. Apparently even with this title there is some confusion because as far as I know, LH and OS are definitely not flat bed as in ------- flat like that not / flat.

As far as which airlines have a full fleet implementation, yes that is probably limited at the moment to BA, VS, NZ, SAA but I have included others who are starting to introduce fully flat beds like SQ and CX. Yes they are some of the two top airlines in the world and I know it is not fleet wide but I assume that as time passes (could be years) this will become mostly fleet wide for long haul flights.

I will add Lan to the list

Is anyone sure about BMI or Royal Brunei??
 
LXA340
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:52 am

I am pretty sure EK will go fully flat in C clas with introduction of A380, don't know how the B772LR's are equiped whihc enter service as of last week? This btw would make it nice to finnaly see EK have a cabin product that is identical to the rest of the fleet and not have in every aircraft type a different seating.

Swiss will have fully flat Business Class seats starting with the delivery of the A330-300's in 2009. Probably by 2010 entire longhaul fleet will feature it.

[Edited 2007-09-09 17:53:08]

[Edited 2007-09-09 17:54:23]
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 15):
As far as which airlines have a full fleet implementation, yes that is probably limited at the moment to BA, VS, NZ,

depends what you mean by full fleet imlementation . NZ have true flat beds in all their 744 and 772 fleet . The 767s for the moment still have old style business class ( they are used on more leisure oriented routes such as AKL-HNL , NAN-LAX , RAR-LAX , and on shorter routes such as New Zealand - Australia and the South Pacific) . IIRC business class will disappear altogether from the 767s next year when it will be replaced by a premium economy product - by that time all NZ 'longhaul' a/c with a business class cabin will be true flat bed
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 16):
Swiss will have fully flat Business Class seats starting with the delivery of the A330-300's in 2009. Probably by 2010 entire longhaul fleet will feature it.

About time ! The seats on the LX A340 aren't bad, but the 332 J seats are just dreadful.
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LXA340
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 18):
About time ! The seats on the LX A340 aren't bad, but the 332 J seats are just dreadful.

The A332 seating in C is really embarasing, now almost another 2 years of waiting but now the entire plane will be replaced not only the cabin. Till then always hope to fly an A343 and not an A332  Wink
 
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Coal
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:14 am

Regarding SQ, there are three business class services:

- Raffles Class (772ER, 744): Spacebed is a flat yet sloping bed. I think the angle is 160 or so.
- Regional Raffles Class (772, 773): Business Class seats a la US carriers (ie, AA, CO, etc).
- New Business Class (773ER, A380): Fully flat seats with tons of personal space.

All of Australia, except for SYD, is considered short-haul for SQ so cities like MEL, BNE, PER, ADL get the regional business class, which I agree are subpar to what QF offers on those routes.

It was rumored that the 773ER would be put on the route to MEL (I was rooting for it as I travel SIN-MEL frequently), but those plans have been shelved.

Cheers
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sstsomeday
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 3):
I recently flew them from Australia to Singapore to London, and only Singapore-London was in a flat, horizontal bed.

This must be very confusing; that an airline does not have a consistent product on the same route. It may depend on the A/C type being used, I suppose, but also on whether a refit is being implemented very slowly, for example not until the A/C is taken off line for a major check or to be replaced with a new-buy A/C. So that would mean that variations exist even within the same A/C type. (I understand of course that domestic A/C are often configured differently).

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 5):
There is no real difinitive list. Reasons are that some airlines have regional seats, older style, domestic business seats, while some of the seats are lie-flat.

It would be great if "Seat Guru" or some other website could provide this information, but I suppose it's impossible seeing as you would have to actually know the call sign of the A/C flying your itinerary when you book the ticket, and that may not be determined.

Perhaps it's only possible to go with the airline which has the most consistent high end-product, and then hope for the best.

What I don't understand is, when airlines are flying an A/C type with various ships in the fleet having different configurations, how do they handle seat selection issues and/or overbooking when an A/C arrives at the gate with a different seating configuration than expected? I would imagine passengers paying for those high-end tickets do not want that kind of drama or unreliability.

The only thing I can think of is that a large percentage of the front cabins are probably peopled with last minute upgrades, meaning a paying business/first class passenger would never need to be downgraded to coach. But imagine expecting and paying for a lie-flat seat or mini cabin and ending up with only a large regular seat.

About 10 years ago my brother flew a domestic trip on an A/C 767, I believe it was, and was pleased to discover they were using an internationally configured 767 on that run that day. So there was one less seat across as I recall. So he was pleasantly surprised, etc., but imagine when that scenario works in the reverse, and an A/C with lessor product has to substitute for one that has gone tech. I would feel swindled...
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ftrguy
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 21):
It would be great if "Seat Guru" or some other website could provide this information, but I suppose it's impossible seeing as you would have to actually know the call sign of the A/C flying your itinerary when you book the ticket, and that may not be determined.

They do...

http://www.seatguru.com/charts/business_class.php
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Airbus767 (Reply 4):
LAN is in the process of removing First & Business and implementing their new "Premium Business" class in all their 767s, which feature lie-flat seats

Lie-flat doesn't mean 180º, AFAIK LA new seats will not be full flat beds but angled, more or less like IB's.
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ManchesterMAN
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8):
From the end of this month BD will start introducing fully flat beds on their A330's.

Fully flat yes, but not horizontal which is what the OP is asking about. The BD seats will be at a very slight angle for some strange reason (given that the 80 inch pitch is sufficient for horizontal seating).

http://www.flybmi.com/bmi/en-gb/trav...ormation/newcabinsforlonghaul.aspx
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ThereandBack
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:02 am

Turkish Airlines has lie flat at an angle seats.

These seats are on the A330 and are being slowly introduced on the A340. One A340 already has the new Business and Economy seats.
 
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zeke
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Thread starter):
So this list is here for the definitive decision on airlines with a Full Flat Bed in Business class.

You could also look at http://www.flatseats.com/
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bombayhog
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:20 am

LAN's seats are angled! They're very good seats, yes, but not 180 to the floor, unfortunately.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:49 am

GF
TN
AI

Add these to the list.

Hunter
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vv701
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 23):
Lie-flat doesn't mean 180º

I do not think this is correct. First The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (page 968) says:

"flat 1. Horizontally level; without inclination" which is pretty conclusive.

Second, just think about it. Assume for a moment that "Lie-flat doesn't mean 180 degrees" is correct and does include "lie-inclined". What other possible positions are there? There cannot be "lie-upright" as gravity would ensure you did not "lie-upright" for very long and anyway it is simply "lie-inclined at 90 degrees". "Lie-curved" in not an option with the human backbone designed as it is unless you are one of those people with extraordinary and unusual flexibility. So if "lie-flat" means lie horixontally and/or inclined the word "flat" would, in this phrase, be meaningless and add nothing as "lie-flat" would in no way differ from "lie".

So the choice when using the English language is simple. The bed is either flat and therefore "horizontally level and without inclination" or "inclined" and therefore not "flat".
 
AEROFAN
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:39 am

EKs are not flat beds. They are of the sloping lie flat kind. The ones on their 777W that fly on the JFK route are are ok. Steer clear of the ones on their A345 however.
 
koruman
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:01 am

I don't think that Kiwiandrew is correct in saying that Air NZ's low-yield 767-300ERs are going to have Business Class replaced by Premium Economy: there has been speculation but no decision.

All Air NZ's 747/777/787 fleet (ie for NZ-London, NZ-USA, NZ-Canada, NZ-China) has / will have fully horizontal Virgin Upper Class suites, but the 767 serving Australia and island hopper trans-Pacific flights currently has 24 old-fashioned Business seats with 150 degree recline, and 210 Economy seats.

My guess (given that the 767s main flights are AKL-SYD and AKL-HNL, AKL-APW-LAX and AKL-NAN-LAX) is that the 24 Business seats won't change, but that the 210 Economy seats will become 42 at 35 inch pitch for Air NZ frequent flyers and 161 at 32 inch pitch for everyone else, but that they will all be economy inventory, not premium economy.

Air NZ currently gets away with charging $5000 Business Class return for AKL-HNL, which is 20% more than Qantas charges for the longer SYD-HNL flight in a superior Skybed. They are not going to get rid of Business Class when they can charge that size of a fare!
 
VHVXB
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:06 am

How about Jet Airways??
 
Viscount724
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 29):
I do not think this is correct. First The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (page 968) says:

"flat 1. Horizontally level; without inclination" which is pretty conclusive.

That's not correct in current airline usage. Many airlines advertise "flat beds" when in fact the seats are angled when fully extended. Those seats have always made me feel like I'm sliding off onto the floor. Not the first time airlines have taken liberties with the English language.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 15):
full fleet implementation, yes that is probably limited at the moment to BA, VS, NZ, SAA

BA and NZ and SAA have 737. A320, etc. WHICH DON"T HAVE FULLY FLAT SEATS Big grin

only fully flat seat flee-wide must be VS !!!

-CXfirst
 
vv701
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:24 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
That's not correct in current airline usage.

But it is correct in terms on the English language. Those airlines that claim their inclined beds are flat are simply stretching the truth for commercial gain or, less likely, have advertising and promotions departments who publish information in a language they do not understand.
 
mk777
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting VHVXB (Reply 32):
How about Jet Airways??

I think their 77W's have the F and J class and the A332's have the J class only (if i am not mistaken).

The F class have "full flat" beds and the J class have "lie-flat" beds.

Now what's the difference b/w the 2??? My guess is as good as yours or anyone else's  Smile
come fly with me
 
LXA340
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting Coal (Reply 20):
Regarding SQ, there are three business class services:

- Raffles Class (772ER, 744): Spacebed is a flat yet sloping bed. I think the angle is 160 or so.
- Regional Raffles Class (772, 773): Business Class seats a la US carriers (ie, AA, CO, etc).
- New Business Class (773ER, A380): Fully flat seats with tons of personal space.

Any plans from SQ to upgrade the B772ER's with the new Business Class. I doubt the B744's wil get new seats as they will progressively be leaving the fleet as A380s arrive. Also when will the regional C Class of SQ get at least lie flat on flights to MEL etc SQ could really offer a better product than this regional seats they use now?
 
bullpitt
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:43 am

Hi all

I might be wrong but I thought that these seats were 178 degrees to compensate the planes 2 degrees as it flys. Otherwise paps would have their feet higher than their heads.

does anybody know if this is true?
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
albird87
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:49 am

I wonder now with more airlines introducing the lie-flat beds in to their fleets, what will the effect of this do to a lot of the airlines that have first class and passengers travelling in first??
As far as i can see it is ruining the difference between first and business so passenger will be willing to save a buck or two and get a smaller decline in service but still get a nice comfy seat!!

Also why do airlines (like AA and LH, AF) install a new buisness class seat that is not going to liek horizontal when most of the rivals are now using horizontal biz seats (BA, CX, UA, DL, EK, SQ, QF). It seems to me that these seats are kinda outdated before they are being installed!!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 31):
I don't think that Kiwiandrew is correct in saying that Air NZ's low-yield 767-300ERs are going to have Business Class replaced by Premium Economy: there has been speculation but no decision.

oooops , that's what I get for quoting rumour as fact  footinmouth  although in my defence I did add "IIRC"  Wink

I was sure that I had read it somewhere but in fact all the references I can find when I look back seem to be based on hearsay/speculation and may even have arisen from confusion about the increased seat pitch to be put in the front of the Y cabin ...sorry all
 
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Coal
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:10 am

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 37):
Any plans from SQ to upgrade the B772ER's with the new Business Class. I doubt the B744's wil get new seats as they will progressively be leaving the fleet as A380s arrive. Also when will the regional C Class of SQ get at least lie flat on flights to MEL etc SQ could really offer a better product than this regional seats they use now?

Not sure about the upgrade on the 772ER, but as some of those a/c start to leave the fleet (in favor of new ones), it is a possibility that they will receive the new Business Class.

Very doubtful that Aussie routes (other than SYD) will get the non-Regional Business Class. MEL at least should get it, I agree, but fat chance of getting it in ADL, PER, and BNE.

I am curious as to what product will be offered on the A330s.

Cheers
Coal
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QFYMML
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting Koruman (Reply 31):
Air NZ currently gets away with charging $5000 Business Class return for AKL-HNL, which is 20% more than Qantas charges for the longer SYD-HNL flight in a superior Skybed. They are not going to get rid of Business Class when they can charge that size of a fare!

Small note - I didn't think the Skybed product has ever been available on QF's SYD-HNL route?
Was 743's with Dreamtime seats, now 763's with the Millenium (?) Seats. AFAIK, only the 744's & A333's offer the Skybed product?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks.
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md90fan
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:20 am

Air Ivoirie has 4 flat beds on their A321.
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
VHVXB
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RE: Definitive List Of Flat Bed J Class Airlines

Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting QFYMML (Reply 42):
Small note - I didn't think the Skybed product has ever been available on QF's SYD-HNL route?
Was 743's with Dreamtime seats, now 763's with the Millenium (?) Seats. AFAIK, only the 744's & A333's offer the Skybed product?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes you are right. QF A333 and B744 has never been used on SYD-HNL.