Alitalia744
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Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:21 am

Total of 30 767-300ERs now confirmed (out of 59) for winglet conversion.

Quote:

Aviation Partners Boeing Announces Expanded 767-300ER Winglet Order From Delta Air Lines
Monday September 10, 12:01 am ET
Additional 15 767-300ER Aircraft to get Winglets


SEATTLE, Sept. 10 /PRNewswire/ -- Aviation Partners Boeing has secured an order for 15 additional winglet systems for installation on Delta Air Lines' fleet of international Boeing 767-300ER aircraft. With the expanded order, Delta now plans to install Blended Winglets on 30 767-300 aircraft by early 2010. Delta also has options to retrofit the remainder of its entire 767-300ER fleet with winglets.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070910/aqm142.html?.v=15
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Thorben
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
Delta now plans to install Blended Winglets on 30 767-300 aircraft by early 2010.

Why does it take that long?

Anyway, interesting new sight at TXL ahead.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
atlantaflyboy
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:48 am

Well, according to the article the product will not be fully certified for use on the 767-300ER for over a year (target Nov 2008) - so the fact that DL plans to have 20 aircraft outfitted by early 2009 is impressive. I am sure they do not want aircraft of of service during the highly lucrative Summer 2009 season, so the additional 10 will be completed Fall 2009/Winter 2010.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Atlantaflyboy (Reply 2):
I am sure they do not want aircraft of of service during the highly lucrative Summer 2009 season, so the additional 10 will be completed Fall 2009/Winter 2010.

APB can't magically produce as many as you want, when you want. They are a business like anyone else, and must keep a sustainable monthly output so that employees and supply chains are optimized.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
eraugrad02
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:52 am

Does anyone have any clue when the AA testbed will fly? I cant wait. I think this will extend life and value of 767's with winglets in the same way that 737 classics are with winglets. When they get sold 2nd hand, they'll be the first to be scooped up.
Desmond MacRae in ILM
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Why does it take that long?

The actual install might be a lot more involved than you think. Take the 738 as an example. The later ones DL had delivered were desigined with a winglet in mind so the install is fairly simple I've been told. Something like unbolt the old wing tip and bolt on the new one. On the older planes the wing itself needs extensive work to transfer the load of the winglet to the spar. I guess a lot of skin has to be opened up to access the structure. I'll bet this is the case for the 767.
 
notdownnlocked
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 5):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Why does it take that long?

The actual install might be a lot more involved than you think. Take the 738 as an example. The later ones DL had delivered were desigined with a winglet in mind so the install is fairly simple I've been told. Something like unbolt the old wing tip and bolt on the new one. On the older planes the wing itself needs extensive work to transfer the load of the winglet to the spar. I guess a lot of skin has to be opened up to access the structure. I'll bet this is the case for the 767.

Yes what he said plus more work to be done at the wing root. The newer models just bolt on and go.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:19 am

This is both good and bad.

On one hand, this investment keeps the 767-300ER competitive.

On the other hand, this investment keeps the 767-300ER competitive, so there's reduced need to replace it with shiny next-generation widebodies.

NS
 
ikramerica
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
On the other hand, this investment keeps the 767-300ER competitive, so there's reduced need to replace it with shiny next-generation widebodies.

If you replace the interior with the 777 look retrofit and update the engines with the latest components for that model, why does it matter? From the customer POV, the 763 is a pretty nice plane.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
If you replace the interior with the 777 look retrofit and update the engines with the latest components for that model, why does it matter? From the customer POV, the 763 is a pretty nice plane.

Because we like shiny new widebodies over here at a.net?

NS
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 9):
Because we like shiny new widebodies over here at a.net?

it's easy to like other people's toys since you don't have to pay for them....

Winglets also push the 767 capabilities so that it could allow DL to expand even further from the US. Since AA has plenty of 777s, they are likely to be more interested in the cost reduction than the added capabilities, at least from the perspective of opening up new routes. Since APB says they are now sold out for the first several years of production, the winglets won't be seen on UA's 763s soon.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):

i sure that DL has options to add winglets to all 738s ,752s and 763ERs but i could be wrong and you would no more than i would
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11):
i sure that DL has options to add winglets to all 738s ,752s and 763ERs but i could be wrong and you would no more than i would

The option exists, but I'm not sure they can be installed on the older 757s, someone from TechOps could provide a better answer on that one.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
From the customer POV, the 763 is a pretty nice plane.

I can only second that. I'd take a 762, 763 or 764 over a T7 any day.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
On one hand, this investment keeps the 767-300ER competitive.

On the other hand, this investment keeps the 767-300ER competitive, so there's reduced need to replace it with shiny next-generation widebodies.

Hah! this is too funny...

Notice how these winglets show up AFTER the 787 is sold out through 2015!  rotfl 
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:15 am

So, does this mean the 763's will be able to get PTV's?

Signed,

(you know who)
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wingletsman
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:23 am

cool... what will they look like?!?!
 Smile
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 15):

So, does this mean the 763's will be able to get PTV's?

probably not this will let DL put(along with the right crew rest) 763ERs on 12 hours and over trips
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Alitalia744
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:16 pm

Guys - PTVs aren't dead in the water for Delta's 767-300ERs.

Winglets enable greater payload/range. New seats enable weight reduction. Refitting some of the cabin fixtures with lighter-weight structures will help to.

Because DL is removing the CRTs and replacing them with LCDs is no final nail in the coffin for Delta fitting it's 76E fleet with PTVs.

Time will tell, so it's not next summer, but doesn't mean in the future it won't. Delta's aware of the ever so large faction of a.netters that choose an airline based on PTVs alone and would never want to let you down...

 Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
twolz2rn
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:32 pm

I remember some time ago there being pictures of an AA 767 with the winglets...

does anyone know where they are??
 
vheca
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:41 pm

Quoting Twolz2rn (Reply 19):
I remember some time ago there being pictures of an AA 767 with the winglets...

does anyone know where they are??

I am still fairly new here so i am unable to do the proper linky thing, but, if you search "AA 762 Upgrades" they have some photos of the winglets, but not attached to any plane, or fitted profile shots!

I hope that this helps.

VHECA
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boeing767mech
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 12):
The option exists, but I'm not sure they can be installed on the older 757s, someone from TechOps could provide a better answer on that one.

They can be added to any 757, we are AAdding winglets to AAll our 757's and we have some old airframes, pushing 53K hours on the average.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
Flighty
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:02 pm

I have also heard that older 757s cannot be wingletted. There are some differences between a 1984 757 and 1994 757, that is about all the detail I am good for. Anyone else know?
 
brucek
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
If you replace the interior with the 777 look retrofit and update the engines with the latest components for that model

Are there retrofits to the B763 engines that make them more efficient? How does that work? I always thought that an engine design was frozen once in production, and the same standard parts used for the life of that particular model engines' production.

Thanks, Bruce.
 
Silverbird757
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:56 pm

Just wanted to put my two cents in.......There are no wingletted 767-300's as of yet. AA is lending a 767 nose number 389(I think) to Boeing for testing.  bigthumbsup  Be looking for it sometime mid next year.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:57 pm

Not exactly lending... leasing.

NS
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:59 pm

I think the LCDs are a pretty good indicator that PTVs in coach are at best a long time away. If DL was going to install ptvs any time soon i really dont think they would waste all of the money to install them just to take them out soon. This is DL so nothing is out of the question, I guess at least two years of LCDs before being retrofited to PTVs


I''m sure delta would like a 767 with winglets for SLC-CDG which starts in 2008 and for SLC-LGW/LHR if/when that flight is ever started. I wonder if there are any potential routes that the winglets open up as options from JFK?? What is the furthest route that DL runs with the 763ER???
 
panamair
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 26):
What is the furthest route that DL runs with the 763ER???

Current longest out of JFK is JFK-IST; however, JFK-TLV starting in March will be longer by about 600 nm.

However, system-wide, ATL-LOS, starting in December, I believe though will be the longest of the announced routes to date.

[Edited 2007-09-12 17:06:44]
 
MCOAviationFan
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting SlcDeltaRUmd11 (Reply 26):
I wonder if there are any potential routes that the winglets open up as options from JFK?? What is the furthest route that DL runs with the 763ER???

I would not be surprised to see DL begin additional Middle East routes from JFK. I believe JFK-CAI is a strong possibility for next summer. The 767-300ER can complete this route without winglets, but the winglets will offer flexibility as far as passenger and cargo loads are concerned, especially on the westbound flights. DL has already announced JFK-TLV service starting in March 2008 also on the 767-300ER. Perhaps AMM and KWI could also be possible route additions.

I believe ATL-LOS will be the longest DL 767-300ER route when it begins later this year. Currently, I believe the ATL-ATH flight is the longest.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Brucek (Reply 23):
Are there retrofits to the B763 engines that make them more efficient? How does that work? I always thought that an engine design was frozen once in production, and the same standard parts used for the life of that particular model engines' production.

This can be done by two ways. First softwear changes can effect things like maximum thrust, fuel burn rates, and maximum turbine rotation speed. The other way includes new lighter weight but stronger materials used to make new replacement parts like turbine blades, burner cans, etc.



Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
I have also heard that older 757s cannot be wingletted. There are some differences between a 1984 757 and 1994 757, that is about all the detail I am good for. Anyone else know?

That is true, a design update in the late 1980s reduced the overall weight of the B-757 wing. The "new" wing retained the same load bearing strenght, but had reduced outboard structures. This is what allows the later B-757s to have winglets. The earlier ones can have winglets installed, but it is a much different process.

Quoting Wingletsman (Reply 16):
cool... what will they look like?!?!

They will be 4'X8' sheets of 3/4" plywood from Home Depot, nailed onto the wingtips with 3" steel nails.
 banghead 
 
jfk777
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:28 am

Atlanta to Moscow has to be up there in miles, its must be 11 hours from SVO to Atlanta.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:35 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 27):
However, system-wide, ATL-LOS, starting in December, I believe though will be the longest of the announced routes to date.

Correct, 5078nm. Second would be ATL-ATH, at 4954nm, followed by JFK-TLV at 4934nm.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 30):
Atlanta to Moscow has to be up there in miles, its must be 11 hours from SVO to Atlanta.

ATL-SVO is only 4675nm.
 
mu2
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:39 am

Is this mod just for the 300? Could US use them on the 200s (not that they would or should)?
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
I have also heard that older 757s cannot be wingletted. There are some differences between a 1984 757 and 1994 757, that is about all the detail I am good for.

The 757 wing was redesigned a little bit when the 757-300 was developed. Thicker gauge in places, primarily. The redesigned wing went on to the 757-200 as well, so newer 757-200's have a slightly different wing than the early ones. However, you can get winglets for both (the installation is just a little different).

Quoting Brucek (Reply 23):

Are there retrofits to the B763 engines that make them more efficient? How does that work? I always thought that an engine design was frozen once in production, and the same standard parts used for the life of that particular model engines' production.

Parts roll quite often, even on the engines. I'm not really familiar with the 767 engines but, for example, the CFM56-7B (737NG) has gone through a couple of upgrades. The latest engines (CFM56-7B/3) have redesigned compressors and turbines, and new software, to improve EGT margin and extend maintenance intervals, and there are a couple other programs in work to improve fuel burn.

Every change has to be certified but certification doesn't freeze the design.

Tom.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta Increased 767 Winglet Order

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:03 am

The winglets for the 763 are to be at first put on DL’s GE powered 763s since they are more powerful engine than DL’s PW engines. Installing the winglets also involves raising the MTOW of the a/c to 412K pounds, the max for the 763. In time, the winglets might be put on the PW powered 767s but for now they are slated for the GE powered a/c. About half of DL’s 763 fleet is PW powered and the other half is GE powered.
winglets for the 757 do not provide the greatest benefit on flights generally within the continental US so it might not make sense for DL to put winglets on the remainder of its 757 fleet if they intend to use them primarily on domestic routes. If anything, the 757s that have the AVOD system would be most likely since they are targeted to be flown on longer, domestic flights. But many of DL’s 757s are older generation so the winglet installation might be more complex and costly – negating potential benefits.
Also,