keesje
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Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:28 am

Reuters, Tuesday, September 11, 2007; 3:07 PM

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boeing Co's (BA.N) chief executive pointed the finger at Alcoa Inc (AA.N) and others for the lack of bolts that has delayed the first flight of its new 787 Dreamliner and threatens its delivery schedule.

The shortage of aluminum and titanium bolts -- known as fasteners in the aerospace industry -- has been publicly discussed by Boeing for six months or so, but the problem is still not completely solved, Boeing CEO Jim McNerney said at an investor presentation on Tuesday.

McNerney said its fastener suppliers are catching up, but full resolution of the shortage is not "guaranteed."

"We have a lot of temporary fasteners in that first airplane, that are now being reworked," he said. "The supply chain is just gradually catching up."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/09/11/AR2007091101310.html



Boeing outsourced most work on the 787.

IMO outsourcing responsibility for a delay is not the mother of all leadership.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:30 am

Well since making fasteners is not a "core competency" at Boeing, they went to companies where it is.

And those suppliers have been unable to meet Boeing's needs, even with months - if not years - of advance notice and orders.

So I don't see where, exactly, it is the fault of Boeing management...  confused 
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:34 am

Boeing are sounding more and more like Airbus during the A380 delays. I doubt too many (only the true believers) ever thought that the IFE vendors were at fault (or the customers themselves).

Lets hope it doesn't turn out to be a 2 year delay, but one would think that the curtain is beginning to close on a 2008 delivery.

Cheers
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:34 am

The Chinese demand for such materials has created a worldwide shortage, mainly because companies aren't willing to increase production fast enough (instead, charging higher prices for the products they produce).

Why is it only problematic for the 787 though? Shouldn't all aircraft lines be effected?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 2):
Boeing are sounding more and more like Airbus during the A380 delays. I doubt too many (only the true believers) ever thought that the IFE vendors were at fault (or the customers themselves).

Airbus initially blamed customers for asking for interior fittings Airbus themselves sold them on.

Boeing is not blaming customers as far as I can tell. They are saying they have a PARTS SHORTAGE and why anyone would doubt that there is actually a parts shortage is beyond me, considering it is well established to be true.

Prices of all sorts of building materials, industrial and otherwise, have gone up in recent years due to these shortages. Heck, even cement is in short supply.

And further, why anyone would doubt Airbus when they say the IFE wiring was causing them problems of interference is also beyond me, since that was TRUE.

Oh well.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shorta

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Airbus initially blamed customers for asking for interior fittings Airbus themselves sold them on.

Boeing is not blaming customers as far as I can tell. They are saying they have a PARTS SHORTAGE and why anyone would doubt that there is actually a parts shortage is beyond me, considering it is well established to be true.

Prices of all sorts of building materials, industrial and otherwise, have gone up in recent years due to these shortages. Heck, even cement is in short supply.

And further, why anyone would doubt Airbus when they say the IFE wiring was causing them problems of interference is also beyond me, since that was TRUE.

Oh well.

Its all just a conveinent little piece of an overall puzzle that is missing a lot more parts then fasteners and IFE. IFE isn't required to deliver an airplane, just like it doesn't require permanent fasteners at the splices to install the airplane systems and wiring.

In addition, Airbus tried to blame Customers for being late in specifying their airplanes (which was re-buffed quite quickly, as THEY are the customer, not Airbus). The simularities lie in the finger pointing in general.

Cheers

[Edited 2007-09-11 22:48:02]
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):

BTW - why did you not quote the parts of the article where ALCOA accepts responsibility? You break the rules of quoting in your original post by not using ... or other markers to indicate you EDITED someone else's copyrighted material. It is against the law to post the way you did, just so you know...

Since some won't read the article, they will jump to conclusions similar to Shenzhen's.

For example, this quote from ALCOA means something:

Quote:
Alcoa, which makes the bolts for the 787 at plants in southern California, said it was tackling the issue.

"We are working with them (Boeing) to try to get them as many fasteners as we possibly can for this program," Alcoa spokesman Kevin Lowery said. "Every day we are getting them more and more -- we are making great progress."

Sure sounds like Boeing is making it up...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Since some won't read the article, they will jump to conclusions similar to Shenzhen's.

Shenzhen didn't jump to a conclusion, as he knows there is a shortage of fasteners, but that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Yep, the bottleneck has been reached and new contingency plans are being generated.

Cheers
 
JRadier
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):

So I don't see where, exactly, it is the fault of Boeing management... confused

Let's just say you order a cheese and ham sandwich, but the shop does not have butter so your sandwich isn't delivered at noon (as promised) but rather at 3pm. Would you blame the buttersupplier? Of course not, you blame the sandwich bar.

If you outsource things that does not change your obligations towards your customers. If you outsource you have to make sure they can deliver at the service level you want/need. For example, outsourcing your helpdesk to India is a cheap option but has a low service level. This directly influences the view of the customer towards your company.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
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moo
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):

Airbus initially blamed customers for asking for interior fittings Airbus themselves sold them on.

This is a fallacy that has rapidly grown into a myth here on a.net - Airbus initially blamed the problems on the number and complexity of different interior fittings, but they did not blame their customers for that.

Back on topic - this milestone for the 787 has been a long time planned so its not as if the demand has suddenly crept up on the industry, so why was Boeing or its suppliers not stockpiling these integral parts months before when the demand was shown?
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
You break the rules of quoting in your original post by not using ... or other markers to indicate you EDITED someone else's copyrighted material.

I did edit nothing and provided the source. It did not quote the full article, which happens often I might say.

You seem to be making false aquisition to discredit me. Childish "kill the messenger" that has no place here on a.net (or should have no place..), leading to flaimbait, giving mods an excuse to delete the thread. Worrying but unfortunately succesfull tactic.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:09 am

Whether or not this is Boeing's fault I can't say, but I think this sort of thing will happen more and more in industry as financial analysts so strongly influencing decision making. Boeing would be looked upon badly if they had millions of dollars worth of fasteners in stock. So would Alcoa. So where should they be? Only in a planning queue? I see this problem on a daily basis, only to a smaller degree.
 
JPRM1
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:09 am

I think we are here facing the problem of the responsability of the supply chain. As Boeing did gave the responsability to each of the partners, no direct follow-up of the suppliers upstream was probably organized. In the article from Washington Post, it is said that Alcoa did bought different suppliers some years ago and probably did reorganize the production, Who cared? No inventory was imposed or organize?
I start really thinking that small things (bolts) will lead to a big problem!
 
barbarian
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:13 am

Is that really a picture of the 787 as it was during the roll out ceremony?

If so that is shocking, not just the number of slaves being used, but also the number of locations without any kind of fastener in at all.
Many of those locations haven't even been protected prior to paint, and have now got paint in the hole and the countersink. All that will need to be cleaned out without damaging or oversizing the hole, and as a result they are sure to end up with quite a lot of 901/902's going in, or do they have some clever way of repairing a composite hole back to nom. instead of oversizing?
If not, and they had a problem with nominal production fasteners, how on earth are they going to deal with all the oversize ones required after that?
Finally, where they do appear to have got a production fastener in, they look either proud or shallow... just does not look good at all.
Apologies if the picture isnt of the 787, but if it is then its a lot worse than i had thought from the various press reports i had read previously. Hopefully this is the worst area, and not indicative of the rest of the aircraft.
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
Let's just say you order a cheese and ham sandwich, but the shop does not have butter so your sandwich isn't delivered at noon (as promised) but rather at 3pm. Would you blame the buttersupplier? Of course not, you blame the sandwich bar.

OTOH, if there is a nation-wide butter shortage because the butter suppliers can't keep up with demand, you'd probably get frustrated that the sandwich bar didn't give you an accurate time of delivery estimate, but you'd understand that it is not the sandwich bar's fault that the butter wasn't there, especially when both the sandwich bar and the butter salesman admit that.

By the way, who puts butter on a ham and cheese sandwich anyway?
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
mt99
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
And those suppliers have been unable to meet Boeing's needs, even with months - if not years - of advance notice and orders.

So I don't see where, exactly, it is the fault of Boeing management.

It is called Supply Chain Management.
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AF2323
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:19 am

Its not directly Boeing's fault, but I think you always have some kind of responsability when you outsource something. You have to make sure your supplier is doing what is needed to fulfill your requests.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
This is a fallacy that has rapidly grown into a myth here on a.net - Airbus initially blamed the problems on the number and complexity of different interior fittings, but they did not blame their customers for that.

Moo, do you work for the revisionist history channel? They very much did blame the customers for thier problems.

even worse is when they blamed Engine Alliance for the failure for the first Engine alliance test aircraft not flying.... and they got busted with 4 EA engines sitting outside undertarps at the time that they were saying that EA never sent them the engines.
 
silentbob
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):

You seem to be making false aquisition to discredit me. Childish "kill the messenger" that has no place here on a.net (or should have no place..), leading to flaimbait, giving mods an excuse to delete the thread. Worrying but unfortunately succesfull tactic.

Stop with the martyr routine already, we all know better. Redacting contradictory quotes from a cited passage is unethical at best.

How many airframe manufacturers have their own foundries for forging fasteners (bolts)? This is an industry problem, not some monumental screw up within the 787 program. It does back up some of the things that Newhouse wrote in his AvB book about Boeing becoming very focused on time lines.
 
Wsp
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:25 am

In the other conference call it was clearly explained that the shortage is not a problem of overall production speed of these fasteners but rather the amount of different fastener types.

They have only one system to produce them and for every type of fastener they run a large batch. So to get all fastener types required on one aircraft they need to run a full batch of each type.

My understanding is that the person planning these processes was not aware of this limitation and did not start buffering these different fastener types in advance as would have been required. I have a hard time believing that such a mistake would be made at Alcoa who know their own system. And in my experience it is up to the buyer to place orders taking into account the manufacturer's limitations.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
For example, this quote from ALCOA means something:

The quote means that Alcoa tries to help Boeing. Certainly they are not taking responsibility in that quote.

P.S. If we start discussing Airbus in this thread we might quickly end up with 150 posts before we have even separated the a.net-Myths from the actual statements made by the company.
 
Aviator27
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:26 am

Those are some rather aerodynamic bolds. Okay so they are temporary. No wonder Airbus keeps their laser welding technique under wraps. Blame the bolt shortage on the communists. Right, that will do it. Ramp up for the B787 has been several years in the running. I think they had years to figure out how many bolts they needed for the first airframe. Now they are saying the suppliers couldn't deliver? I smell a rat. Say anything to keep the stock price up. Sounds familiar? All I can say is "speed tape".
 
blrsea
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:27 am

How many fasterners are required for each 787? Is it in the order of thousands? What is the production rate of Alcoa for these fasteners? The article is not clear on who misjudged. Did Boeing inform Alcoa how many fasterners were required each month? Is Alcoa itself facing raw material shortage of Titanium etc ( given that there was global titanium shortage)?
 
JRadier
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shorta

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 15):

OTOH, if there is a nation-wide butter shortage because the butter suppliers can't keep up with demand, you'd probably get frustrated that the sandwich bar didn't give you an accurate time of delivery estimate, but you'd understand that it is not the sandwich bar's fault that the butter wasn't there, especially when both the sandwich bar and the butter salesman admit that.

It might not be the fault of the sandwich bar, but it sure is the responsibility. I know I'd get pissed if I got my lunch 3 hours late.

It's Boeing's problem that they don't have enough fasteners. They made a deal with several airlines with delivery dates etc. By doing so you take responsibility of making sure you keep up your end of the contract (delivering the aircraft). That's why you do a SWOT-analysis (google it) of the company, including your supply chain. As the booming economy is nothing new (including china's) this should have come up as a Thread and should have been taken care of. Getting the number of fasteners from the Bill of Material is (even in a very large one such as an aircraft) isn't exactly a hard task, neither is calculating your safety stock. It's all freshman stuff in a logistics study.

[Edited 2007-09-11 23:36:07]
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shorta

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
If you outsource things that does not change your obligations towards your customers. If you outsource you have to make sure they can deliver at the service level you want/need. For example, outsourcing your helpdesk to India is a cheap option but has a low service level. This directly influences the view of the customer towards your company.



Quoting JPRM1 (Reply 12):
I think we are here facing the problem of the responsability of the supply chain. As Boeing did gave the responsability to each of the partners, no direct follow-up of the suppliers upstream was probably organized. In the article from Washington Post, it is said that Alcoa did bought different suppliers some years ago and probably did reorganize the production, Who cared? No inventory was imposed or organize? I start really thinking that small things (bolts) will lead to a big problem!



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 16):
It is called Supply Chain Management.



Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
It's Boeing's problem that they don't have enough fasteners. They made a deal with several airlines with delivery dates etc. By doing so you take responsibility of making sure you keep up your end of the contract (delivering the aircraft). That's why you do a SWOT-analysis (google it) of the company, including your supply chain. As the booming economy is nothing new (including china's) this should have come up as a Thread and should have been taken care of. Getting the number of fasteners from the Bill of Material is (even in a very large one such as an aircraft) isn't exactly a hard task, neither is calculating your safety stock. It's all freshman stuff in a logistics study.

All of these statements imply, at least to me, a belief that Boeing just signed a contract for fasteners and then walked away, humming a merry tune.

This is not true.

Boeing has been working with Alcoa and other fastener manufacturers, as well as securing large and long-term deals for the raw materials (Ti and Al) necessary to make them. They knew how many of these things they'd need per plane and knew how many planes they were going to build and therefore knew how many fasteners they would need at each step of production. And they then contracted out with suppliers who promised they'd get them to Boeing as scheduled.

As a customer, I might blame the sandwich shop for not having the butter, but as the sandwich shop owner, I'd be chewing out the arse of the butter supplier who didn't get me the butter I ordered delivered when I contracted it to be. And like the sandwich owner who ran down to the store and bought some margarine to hold him over, Boeing did the same with fasteners from Home Depot.

And it's not like the 787 is the first commercial airliner to need fasteners. Every Boeing plane does. So Boeing can "supply chain manage" the 737, 747, 767, 777 programs - plus all their military programs that need fasteners - but can't do so for the 787?  redflag 

The simple fact is that Boeing's suppliers have failed to meet their contracts. They promised Boeing a delivery schedule they couldn't meet. That failure will cost Boeing time and might cost them money, but Boeing will no doubt be getting their pound of flesh out of those suppliers for their failure to perform.

[Edited 2007-09-12 00:01:18]
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 25):

The simple fact is that Boeing's suppliers have failed to meet their contracts. They promised Boeing a delivery schedule they couldn't meet. That failure will cost Boeing time and might cost them money, but Boeing will no doubt be getting their pound of flesh out of those suppliers for their failure to perform.

Maybe Boeing's suppliers should blame Enron....  Smile
 
blrsea
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
The simple fact is that Boeing's suppliers have failed to meet their contracts. They promised Boeing a delivery schedule they couldn't meet. That failure will cost Boeing time and might cost them money, but Boeing will no doubt be getting their pound of flesh out of those suppliers for their failure to perform.

The article says that Boeing has been talking about delay in fasteners publicly for the last six months(since march). They might have been aware of it sooner. Did they still expect that they can stick to their schedule inspite of delay with fasteners? They should have reworked the schedule keeping delays in mind IMVHO.
 
pygmalion
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:20 am

Couldn't just let these misconceptions pass on by... so just to clarify for those who don't build LCA for a living...

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 5):
Its all just a convenient little piece of an overall puzzle that is missing a lot more parts then fasteners and IFE. IFE isn't required to deliver an airplane, just like it doesn't require permanent fasteners at the splices to install the airplane systems and wiring.

So, your input is to go ahead and install systems and wiring KNOWING that you will have to remove them to access the areas to R&R splice bolts? Airplanes are built in specific sequences for a reason. You can't install the wheel on a car if you are short lug nuts and it would be stupid to go ahead and install the hubcap anyway before putting the wheel on the car. And just because some of the systems/wiring is not in doesn't mean that none of it is in.

Not installing IFE sounds good but if the wire bundles for the IFE are the same ones as the seat lighting controls... Leaving them out means you can't certify... the airplane is non conforming to type design.

Quoting Barbarian (Reply 13):
Many of those locations haven't even been protected prior to paint, and have now got paint in the hole and the countersink. All that will need to be cleaned out without damaging or oversizing the hole, and as a result they are sure to end up with quite a lot of 901/902's going in, or do they have some clever way of repairing a composite hole back to nom. instead of oversizing?
If not, and they had a problem with nominal production fasteners, how on earth are they going to deal with all the oversize ones required after that?

The holes you see are covered in masking protecting the countersinks and holes from paint overspray. none of the holes are "open". Just because the masking is hidden by the paint, doesn't mean it isn't protected. Some of those high bolts are the temporaries.
 
tismfu
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shorta

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 10):
I did edit nothing and provided the source. It did not quote the full article, which happens often I might say.

It is correct to insert [...] when you selectively chose sentences/paragraphs from different parts of a source text and combine them, thereby redacting original source material. In that manner your readers know in reality the source text is not presented as such. You might not have edited the words, but you certainly edited how the article was presented. And that is not appropriate and I know that I would certainly have issues if caught doing that on scholastic works. A.net's no school or institution of higher learning, but let's strive for some transparency...
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 23):
How many fasterners are required for each 787? Is it in the order of thousands? What is the production rate of Alcoa for these fasteners? The article is not clear on who misjudged. Did Boeing inform Alcoa how many fasterners were required each month? Is Alcoa itself facing raw material shortage of Titanium etc ( given that there was global titanium shortage)?

I think WSP explained it fairly well. The problem is that these fastners are made on automated Lathes, that take quite awhile to set up and breakdown. Each time Alcoa makes a different fastner they must tear down their machines and set them up again, so Alcoa likes to make huge batches of parts all at once. So it is quite possible that Boeing buyers put in a small order for a large number of different fastners and Alcoa could not deliver them in time. So who's fault is it? Is it Boeing's Fault for not understanding how the lead time works on machine lathed fastners, or is it Alcoa's fault for not making sure Boeing understands that while the lead time on all of Alcoa's fastner may only be 1 week, if you order 20 parts you may have a 20 week lead time?
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
IMO outsourcing responsibility for a delay is not the mother of all leadership.

Get used to it. Airbus is already saying that, at the very least, 50% of the A350 will be outsourced. While I'm in agreement with you about being uncomfortable with outsourcing such high percentages of the airframe manufacture, it is the wave of the future. With the 787 backlog becoming so large, and showing little sign that it'll slow anytime soon, I wouldn't be surprised if sometime in the future Boeing takes back some of the fabrication themselves. Heck, they designed the process, specialized tools as well as the parts, themselves.

But I think they'll continue to rely on Alcoa to make the fasteners.

I'm not sure what you meant by the "leadership" statement. They sure have grabbed leadership in many areas with the 787 program.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
terryb99
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:30 am

Sorry, but the buck stops at Boeing.

I am in the aviation parts business. We stock several million dollars worth of parts, but we also "broker" a substantial amount. I get a call from Airline A, they need part B. I check my stock and see I have no B's, they are on order, but not due for another 10 weeks, unacceptable to Airline A. I contact another distributor who also has part B on order, and theirs are due in only 1 week. I make a deal with my fellow distributor to get one when theirs come in. I contact Airline A with the good news, and book the order for part B, promising to ship in 2 weeks (giving myself a few days extra, just in case).

Two weeks comes, I have no part B. I contact the distributor to see what is going on. The factory has not shipped yet, and cannot give an updated ship date at this time. I contact Airline A with the news, and the fur starts flying. Hanger space has been scheduled, planes have been shuffled around to allow for 12 hours down time. All to install the part I PROMISED to ship in 2 weeks. It is me and my company that are on the carpet. Sure, it was totally out of our control, but Airline A is looking at me to fix it. They don't want to hear, nor do they care about WHY I can't ship, it is up to me to find a solution.

Boeing is in the same boat. It is up to them to fix the situation. ANA does not want to be hearing about that terrible Alcoa not supplying fasteners on time, they want their plane.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:45 am

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 27):
So, your input is to go ahead and install systems and wiring KNOWING that you will have to remove them to access the areas to R&R splice bolts?

Actually, my input is that the wiring doesn't run under the insulation, thruough a hole in each frame, and on top of the splices.

Cheers
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 26):
The article says that Boeing has been talking about delay in fasteners publicly for the last six months (since march). They might have been aware of it sooner. Did they still expect that they can stick to their schedule inspite of delay with fasteners? They should have reworked the schedule keeping delays in mind IMVHO.

Boeing and Alcoa have been trying to work around each other, but in the end, Alcoa had a hard delivery date and so did Boeing. And Alcoa's inability to meet their hard delivery date now means Boeing might not be able to, as well.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 29):
The problem is that these fastners are made on automated Lathes, that take quite awhile to set up and breakdown. Each time Alcoa makes a different fastner they must tear down their machines and set them up again, so Alcoa likes to make huge batches of parts all at once. So it is quite possible that Boeing buyers put in a small order for a large number of different fastners and Alcoa could not deliver them in time. So who's fault is it? Is it Boeing's Fault for not understanding how the lead time works on machine lathed fastners, or is it Alcoa's fault for not making sure Boeing understands that while the lead time on all of Alcoa's fastner may only be 1 week, if you order 20 parts you may have a 20 week lead time?

In my view, it is Alcoa's for not delivering to contract. If Boeing's ordering impacted Alcoa's production, then it was up to Alcoa to tell Boeing that. And if Boeing still demanded an ordering schema that impacted Alcoa's production schedule, then it was up to Alcoa to either say "okay"and then meet it or say "no dice", and decline the order - in whole or in part.

Quoting Terryb99 (Reply 31):
Sorry, but the buck stops at Boeing.

Yes it does, but that doesn't mean the buck makes a stop-over at Alcoa on the way.  Smile

Quote:
Boeing is in the same boat. It is up to them to fix the situation. ANA does not want to be hearing about that terrible Alcoa not supplying fasteners on time, they want their plane.

And so NH won't, but as been made quite clear with LN0001, you can't just put any old fastener into a production 787 airframe. Boeing is working with the suppliers to fix that situation, but in the end, those suppliers are the ones that put Boeing into the situation in the first place, despite telling Boeing they could do it.

And this extends beyond just the fasteners. Many Boeing suppliers are not meeting their contracted production schedules. As bad as the situation is now, think of how bad it would be if Boeing really hadn't given any consideration or contingency to such problems, and just assumed everything would be perfect from Day One?
 covereyes   fever   melting 
 
ebbuk
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
Boeing is not blaming customers as far as I can tell. They are saying they have a PARTS SHORTAGE and why anyone would doubt that there is actually a parts shortage is beyond me, considering it is well established to be true.

Absolutely, Boeing would never say that. Who they blame is as written in the title of the post.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):


BTW - why did you not quote the parts of the article where ALCOA accepts responsibility? You break the rules of quoting in your original post by not using ... or other markers to indicate you EDITED someone else's copyrighted material. It is against the law to post the way you did, just so you know...

He actually didn't need to as there was agreement in the blame game by the industry suppliers. No mis-deed there. If there was a counter arguement then yes your comments would be valid, but on this occassion they are not. So by stating them, people make up angles of attack which usually end up picking up dead old meat, straying from the gem of the story.


The REAL story which I am interested in, and in which the Moderators saw validity in keeping, is encapsulated in the stunning closing statement

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
IMO outsourcing responsibility for a delay is not the mother of all leadership.

Or put another way, the leaders that get the most respect are those who take full responsibility for everything that works and everything that doesn't. It's a bit like the captain of the Titanic blaming the iceberg for being in the way for the reason why it sank. Had he have lived to do so, he would have not had much respect. Sympathy possibly but respect nil.

In the industry we love, we only too recently saw how a good leader succombed to bad leadership by choosing to blame others instead of taking responsibility. Keesje therefore raises a valid question, are we going to lose other good leaders who choose to "outsource" responsibility or are we going to have good leaders who know that the buck rests ultimately with them? I am convinced Boeing have good leaders who say what they do and do what they say. So I choose to accepte that the 787 EIS will be as promised by the leaders. Why because they say so!

When the new management at Airbus arrived I had ultimate respect for them. In that horrible time and beyond they've stood firm in the firing line, where others have ducked or walked and said "YUP we screwed up and we are cleaning up" Only then has the A380 begun to live up to it's expectations. The hype around the plane is just growing, tickets selling at huge numbers for a good cause. The bird is proving herself extra fit and is in better shape than perhaps even Airbus could have ever hoped. Why? Good leadership, responsible for what works and what doesn't and going all guns to fix it. Then by no coincedence more orders come in and history is written.

Now we will have 2 great planes to be in our lives for the next 30 years all borne out of the vision of the designers, courage of the engineers and leadership of all by a structure designed to have all three work Men and women who love to fly. 3 great qualities that I am putting into use in my life right now cause I know with them in place I too can fly.

Thanks Keesje, you deffo are someone whose posts I look out for, the skill of your writing stimulates debate in me, which I love doing and I know by practicing, I can only get as good as you. Hell it has been a bumpy road getting to this place me, as some might only too well remember my nightmare days.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 34):
Or put another way, the leaders that get the most respect are those who take full responsibility for everything that works and everything that doesn't.

People are asking why there is a shortage of fasteners. What is Boeing supposed to say? Pirates hijacked the shipment in Puget Sound? They got lost in transit from Dreamlifter 2 to Building 40-26?

Not to mention all the direct comments from Boeing have been hardly "if only Alcoa had been on the ball, LN0001 would have been in the air in April!". Boeing has stated on many an occasion they are working with the suppliers to try and meet demand and adjust scheduling, not throwing them to the wolves.

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 34):
In the industry we love, we only too recently saw how a good leader succumbed to bad leadership by choosing to blame others instead of taking responsibility. Keesje therefore raises a valid question, are we going to lose other good leaders who choose to "outsource" responsibility or are we going to have good leaders who know that the buck rests ultimately with them?

Again, I don't see where Boeing is laying everything at the foot of Alcoa, much less any other supplier. Heck, it's the bleeding reporter who used the word "blame", not a Boeing executive.

I suppose there would be no small sense of satisfaction amongst some (present company excepted, EbbUK) to see McNerny and Bair fall on their swords and take the blame for everything so they could be roundly flamed as was done to Forgeard and Champion.

But I don't see how outright lying just to be "noble" is going to satisfy shareholders, investors, regulators, and customers who want truthful answers.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Yes it does, but that doesn't mean the buck makes a stop-over at Alcoa on the way.

There is one and only one distinction with the thing they call the buck. It stops once. No stop-overs. It is the fullest expression of responsibility. Whoever takes it on and plays full out IS a leader.

Or put another way, Qantas and the such will have no issue with Alcoa as they do not sell or build the 787.
 
khobar
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Boeing outsourced most work on the 787.

IMO outsourcing responsibility for a delay is not the mother of all leadership.

Boeing doesn't make fasteners, and Boeing did NOT outsource the joining work evidenced in the photo.

This is disappointing Keesje - I know from reading your posts that your leanings are specific, as are others', but really...

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 2):
Boeing are sounding more and more like Airbus during the A380 delays. I doubt too many (only the true believers) ever thought that the IFE vendors were at fault (or the customers themselves).

Boeing made clear six months ago there was an issue with the fasteners. What does that say about those who are gasping in surprise now about Boeing using temporary fasteners?

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 5):
In addition, Airbus tried to blame Customers for being late in specifying their airplanes (which was re-buffed quite quickly, as THEY are the customer, not Airbus). The simularities lie in the finger pointing in general.

What finger pointing? There is a shortage of fasteners from Alcoa. Alcoa says they are doing their best. Everyone is up to speed on the problem and solutions are being worked on.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
Let's just say you order a cheese and ham sandwich, but the shop does not have butter so your sandwich isn't delivered at noon (as promised) but rather at 3pm. Would you blame the buttersupplier? Of course not, you blame the sandwich bar.

You'd be a moron to wait 3 hours for a sandwich in the first place when sandwiches are sold a dime a dozen all over town with endless varieties to satisfy any want or need.

Or you could be slightly less of a moron and just order something else off the menu - one meal is as good as another in most circumstances - the ham and cheese is merely a choice on your part, a choice which may have been influenced by your budget but probably was more a matter of what you simply felt like having.

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 14):
OTOH, if there is a nation-wide butter shortage because the butter suppliers can't keep up with demand, you'd probably get frustrated that the sandwich bar didn't give you an accurate time of delivery estimate, but you'd understand that it is not the sandwich bar's fault that the butter wasn't there, especially when both the sandwich bar and the butter salesman admit that.

By the way, who puts butter on a ham and cheese sandwich anyway?

Bravo.

The Irish and Brits, at least, put butter on sandwiches. Not sure why Mayo seems foreign to them, but a common alternative is the dreaded "salad dressing."

Quoting AF2323 (Reply 17):
Its not directly Boeing's fault, but I think you always have some kind of responsability when you outsource something.

Boeing doesn't make fasteners, so they had no choice. And if deliveries to customers are late because the fasteners aren't available, Boeing will take "some kind" of responsibility - like $Millions in penalty payments. This illustrates the difference between being late for first flight and being late to customer.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 20):
P.S. If we start discussing Airbus in this thread we might quickly end up with 150 posts before we have even separated the a.net-Myths from the actual statements made by the company.

Oh, the old "if this was Airbus" routine. Good grief. (is that a violin I hear?)

"Leahy said in an interview that he was embarrassed about the delays, but he attributed it, in part, to the new cabin configurations on the A380 sought by customers.

"They are dramatically changing the flying experience," he said. "When every launch customer dramatically changes the interior, and each is different than the other, that's a lot more engineering that is required."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/226713_airbus02.html

Quoting JRadier (Reply 23):
It might not be the fault of the sandwich bar, but it sure is the responsibility. I know I'd get pissed if I got my lunch 3 hours late.

What idiot waits 3 hours for lunch? Your boss is going to ask the same thing, along with some other unfavourable questions.

You can go anywhere for lunch. You cannot go anywhere for Boeings and Airbii.
 
JTR
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:39 am

Trying to turn a worldwide shortage of a product onto Boeing's shoulders is ridiculous. Blame the airlines for the unprecedented demand, blame the flying public for that demand.

If ALCOA was a wholly-owned Boeing subsidiary, you'd have a case Keesje. In this case, you don't. Nice try.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:44 am

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Boeing just telling everyone what the problem is? I really didn't see Boeing not taking responsibility for the delay. The buck should stop at Boeings door, end of story. Whether it was Boeings mistake by not anticipating the fact that Alcoa might let them down or whether Alcoa took on more than it could handle does not change the fact that the delay of first flight has been caused by a shortage of fasteners. And that is what was conveyed by the CEO. Should the stock take a hit, ABSOLUTELY, it is still the responsibility of Boeing. Of course, Boeing hasn't missed any customer deadlines, yet...  Wink
 
ltbewr
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:08 am

There could be several factors here:
1) Demand, especially from China and elsewhere for these and similar fasteners from reliable quality sources is probably exceeding capacity.
2) Fastener suppliers don't want to invest too much capital overbuilding or over-staffing facilities to meet a higher short term demand, then have overcapacity when demand goes down or if suppliers are changed.
3) Greater use of 'just in time' supplying. As in many industries, like automobiles and retailing, companies like Boeing don't want to have too much stock warehoused with it's costs.
4) A bad run of fasteners or of what turns out to be a bad design,
5) Quality control - stricter quality and inspection protocols meaning a higher percentage of parts not meeting tight standards, fewer fasteners available for delivery.
6) Priority need of speciality fasteners for new and mx of military a/c, helicopters, armored vehicles and other equipment needing such fasteners, especially with the current war in Iraq.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
People are asking why there is a shortage of fasteners

No that is part of the answer given to the question, are you going to deliver the 787 on time as you promised?(valid as it is the investors who want to know) There is another part of the answer that Boeing give and that is YES. Leadership would have you say yes full stop. When people asked the fastners question, leadership would have you say because I chose to go ahead with the schedule confident that we would meet all obligations.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
Boeing has stated on many an occasion they are working with the suppliers to try and meet demand and adjust scheduling, not throwing them to the wolves

Exactly good leaders showing leadership.

But then came the explanation about all the background for the supplier, which pricked up Keesje's ears for he noticed outsourcing of responsibility or put it in your words the attempt to have the buck do a stop-over.

This is the kernal that is interesting to track. For if it grows into a seed and beyond...... then good leaders are lost. Leadership would have them stop right there and focus on the game not the rules and who is sticking to them and the history behind it blah blah blah. Mercifully time is on their hands there is a window for leadership to come in and have the 787 delivered as agreed. Then everything cool, we all win. You and I get a fab plane to fly in and our experience of life goes up a notch as we derive even more pleasure from our passion. Bring it on.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
But I don't see how outright lying just to be "noble" is going to satisfy shareholders, investors, regulators, and customers who want truthful answers.

Agreed, lying to be noble is and never will be leadership. Vision and Courage give rise to leadership. BTW there is only leadership or no leadership. Good or bad doesn't even enter into it.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 8):
If you outsource things that does not change your obligations towards your customers.

Using fastners as an example of outsourcing is a bit far fetched.

If Toyota had trouble delivering cars because of a tire shortage, would you take thme to task for not manufacturing their own tires?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
azhobo
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
Again, I don't see where Boeing is laying everything at the foot of Alcoa, much less any other supplier. Heck, it's the bleeding reporter who used the word "blame", not a Boeing executive.

I am sure the problems are more than the fasteners which seems to be the emphasis by Boeing. My guess is Boeing picked the long pole out of the tent and released that this is the real reason we are pushing back first flight. When in actuality the shorter poles are not really detailed, but do exist, and in themselves would have delayed first flight assuming the long pole was miraculously fixed.

HOBO
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:44 am

Call me naive or call me biased, but I don't see any "leadership issue" at Boeing on this issue or any other.

They have not thrown Alcoa or Alenia or Spirit or "the Heavies" under the bus and used them as an excuse why the 787 program is behind schedule and could slip even further. Yes, they have noted that "supplier issues" have contributed to the problems, but they have also done a good deal of internal "mea culping" about things under their direct control and responsibility not going as planned.

And as "prime contractor", Boeing has "stopped the buck" at 100 North Riverside Plaza. If any 787 delivery is late, Boeing will be the one accepting responsibility for it and the one paying the compensation to the customer(s). But you can be sure that the suppliers who have missed their targets to Boeing will be paying compensation to Boeing for doing so, as well. Because they too will accept responsibility and accountability for their own failures to perform.

Because that is what professionals, in any industry, do.  thumbsup 
 
UnknownUser
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 43):
I am sure the problems are more than the fasteners which seems to be the emphasis by Boeing

What are you basing your 'sureness' on? You'd surly be joking if you had no basis other than just a guess, right?

Quoting Azhobo (Reply 43):
My guess is

#@^$!!!

It really angers me that there are people who think there is more to something than what there really is. Then they go and spread these false allegations with no supporting facts other than their own "guess" which has NO basis either. We have a name for these people; conspiracy theorists!
Die Skybus!!! You need to die for the good of the industry!
 
azhobo
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting UnknownUser (Reply 45):
It really angers me that there are people who think there is more to something than what there really is. Then they go and spread these false allegations with no supporting facts other than their own "guess" which has NO basis either. We have a name for these people; conspiracy theorists!

I will keep it simple for you. DO you beleive that Boeing would have flown in august had it had all the fasteners needed for one aircraft back in May?

The fasteners just happen to be the long pole in the tent is all but not the only issue they have for pulling first flight off. They also have flight control software delays for one.

And I say that as a Boeing supporter here on Anet.

And the "I guess" makes it less than a rumour. Sorry it has angered you so...

HOBO

[Edited 2007-09-12 03:00:34]
 
AirNZ
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:09 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
Boeing is working with the suppliers to fix that situation, but in the end, those suppliers are the ones that put Boeing into the situation in the first place, despite telling Boeing they could do it.

Actually no, it is Boeing who put themselves in the position by not making sure their suppliers could do it. I would have expected more from a company like Boeing before making delivery promises.

Quoting Khobar (Reply 37):
The Irish and Brits, at least, put butter on sandwiches. Not sure why Mayo seems foreign to them, but a common alternative is the dreaded "salad dressing."

It's not foreign at all to us, but we regard it's use is for salads (same as salad dressing), not as an alternative to butter.
We also eat our baked beans hot, lol!!
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shorta

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 47):
Actually no, it is Boeing who put themselves in the position by not making sure their suppliers could do it. I would have expected more from a company like Boeing before making delivery promises.

 banghead   gnasher 

As I stated in Reply #1 - building fasteners is not a core competency of Boeing's, so they contracted with companies where it was!

Boeing never owned (to my knowledge) a fastener company. None of their senior management (to my knowledge) came from the fastener industry. It wasn't Boeing's purview to tell Alcoa how to craft fasteners anymore then it is Alcoa's job to tell Boeing how to craft the horizontal stabilizer.

As OldAeroGuy noted up-thread, that would be like saying Toyota should have a complete and total understanding of how Bridgestone builds tires so they can make sure that Bridgestone isn't "getting in over their head" when they said they could meet Toyota's specifications and delivery requirements. At that point, they should just build the bleedin things themselves and cut out the middle-man!


 whiteflag 


Has it come down to "guilt by association" now? Because Company 1 muffed up something, Company 2 must also muff it up the same way? And every mistake Company 2 makes means Company 1 will make the same one?

All I see here is a lot of "Boeing should have done this" and "Boeing should have done that" - the kicker being Boeing already did do most of it!

What's next? Calls that "Boeing should have rubbed their magic lamp and used one of their three wishes to make all the 787 barrels pre-stuffed" or "Boeing should have held a black mass and sacrificed a goat to ensure Alcoa had all the fasteners ready on time". Or how about "Boeing should have spent $14 billion instead of $4 billion of their own money and done the whole thing in-house, including, evidently building and running an aluminum smelting plant as well as the 100MW nuclear reactor to power the bleedin thing!"
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shortage

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
Why is it only problematic for the 787 though? Shouldn't all aircraft lines be effected?

They are.

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 5):
it doesn't require permanent fasteners at the splices to install the airplane systems and wiring.

Yes, it does. Just like the excellent example above regarding installing the hubcap before the lugnuts, you need access to the backside of the splice to install the fasteners. That access is covered up by airplane systems and wiring.

Quoting Moo (Reply 9):
why was Boeing or its suppliers not stockpiling these integral parts months before when the demand was shown?

Boeing didn't because it would be bad business. Keeping excess inventory when your supplier has said "We'll supply what you need when you need it" is wasting the shareholders' money. Alcoa should have been stockpiling if that was the only way they could meet their contractual obligations.

Quoting Barbarian (Reply 13):
Is that really a picture of the 787 as it was during the roll out ceremony?

Yes.

Quoting Wsp (Reply 20):
And in my experience it is up to the buyer to place orders taking into account the manufacturer's limitations.

Somewhat true, but is up to the manufacturer to inform the buyer if they can meet the order. In this case, Boeing told Alcoa what they needed (a long time ago) and Alcoa said they'd do it but, when the time came, they didn't. It's Boeing's responsibility, but it's Alcoa's fault.

Quoting Terryb99 (Reply 31):

Boeing is in the same boat. It is up to them to fix the situation. ANA does not want to be hearing about that terrible Alcoa not supplying fasteners on time, they want their plane.

And Boeing has said, repeatedly, that first delivery isn't in jeopardy (yet).

Tom.
 
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RE: Boeing CEO Blames Industry For 787 Bolt Shorta

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:34 am

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 47):
Actually no, it is Boeing who put themselves in the position by not making sure their suppliers could do it. I would have expected more from a company like Boeing before making delivery promises.

Okay... Reading further, there seems to be a rush to play the blame-game here, which, I don't read from either Boeing's nor Alcoa's management. The fact is that after the post-9/11 industry-wide downturn, Alcoa like most other aviation parts suppliers REDUCED output, to reflect the OEM reductions in production.

It is only in the last few years that both Airbus and Boeing have increased orders and have asked their suppliers, in many cases the same companies to ramp up.

I misread Keesje's complaints in his thread-starter post. There seems to be an attempt to equate current Boeing management with the management at Airbus during the wiring problem fiasco. I think that comparison is absurd, if that is the direction of this whole discussion. If not, please accept my apologies.

But in reading press releases from both companies and those of the partners, I do not see any of them "passing the buck" . In contrast, they all seem to be accepting blame, quite willingly.

[Edited 2007-09-12 03:35:24]
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