as739x
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Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:08 pm

Horizon has now grounded all Q400 with over a certain amount of cycles in response to SAS incidents. Seems they are joining OS and I am sure others. Maybe this will open up Bombardier eyes since there rep is to not help carriers with issues.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
KELPkid
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:07 am

I just watched the story on KPTV here in Oregon-apparently, over 100 flights have been cancelled today. Glad I'm not flying QX this morning.

The guys on KPTV seem to be leaning towards Bombardier as the party grounding the aircraft-wonder if this is an emergency AD (airworthiness directive)  scratchchin 

As an aside, I've always thought that the Dash 8 had unnaturally long landing gear, but then again, so do the Rockwell Aero Commander and the Fokker F.27, and yet they haven't (to my knowledge  Wink ) had problems with main gear collapsing.
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roseflyer
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:15 am

That will cause some real problems in the Pacific Northwest. Do you have any idea how many planes have been grounded? A 100 flights is a lot to be cancelled so far, but that isn't the entire Q400 fleet.

I hope other forms of transportation are available. I presume a lot of people will be driving. It's unfortunate that United Express out of SEA is just a fraction of what it once was and doesn't even really compete with QX anymore.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
NWAESC
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:16 am

How many of Qx's -400's fall into the high cycle category?
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
gigneil
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting AS739X (Thread starter):
Horizon has now grounded all Q400 with over a certain amount of cycles in response to SAS incidents. Seems they are joining OS and I am sure others. Maybe this will open up Bombardier eyes since there rep is to not help carriers with issues.

This was as a result of a Bombardier recommendation. They have requested all frames with more than 10k cycles be grounded pending investigation.

NS
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 3):

19 Q400's

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
The guys on KPTV seem to be leaning towards Bombardier as the party grounding the aircraft-wonder if this is an emergency AD (airworthiness directive)

It's not an AD as of now. However, Bombardier has issued an All Operator Message that "highly recommends" inspection of all landing gear with more than 10,000 cycles before further flight. It wouldn't surprise me if that becomes an emergency AD today or tomorrow.

Tom.
 
flashmeister
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:34 am

So far, I count 16 cancelled arrivals and 17 cancelled departures at PDX. Really not bad all things considered. Impacted routes from PDX are SEA, BOI, YVR, GEG, SFO, SJC, SMF, RDD, RNO.

There are also a couple of hefty delays on flights later in the day, the worst being a midday Seattle Shuttle departure that's showing a 1hr20m delay, a early PM arrival from BOI that's 2h30m delayed, along with a couple of 45min delays. (A 1hr20m PDX-SEA delay seems silly - you can drive halfway there in that time, but I'm sure it has to do with positioning for follow-on flights.)
 
AirlineBrat
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:50 am

Looks like they are ferrying the Q400 sitting at ACV right now up to Spokane within the next hour.

This morning's ACV-RDD-LAX and LAX-ACV-RDD-PDX are canceled.

There is a maintenance base in GEG? I thought the main MX base was in PDX?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QXE800

[Edited 2007-09-12 18:51:47]
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:35 am

We have three on the ground right now in SEA that are currently undergoeing inspection. Our out of service delay page reads like a nightmare at the moment. It is going to be very interesting when I report to work later today.

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 8):
There is a maintenance base in GEG? I thought the main MX base was in PDX?

There is a mod line at GEG, as well as a line mx base. the majority of the mx is done at PDX.

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:48 am

Alaska is adding extra section to move people now.

SEA/GEG/PDX/RNO/BOI/YVR seeing extar Alaska flights

Looks like 754AS (spirit of Alaska) and 960AS and 796AS are in extra segment role today


ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
KELPkid
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 9):
We have three on the ground right now in SEA that are currently undergoeing inspection. Our out of service delay page reads like a nightmare at the moment. It is going to be very interesting when I report to work later today.

So, has Bombardier said what the offending part(s) is/are, and what exactly you're looking for? Hopefully, you are at liberty to say...  Wink
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AirlineBrat
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:58 am

Looks like QX is ferrying the Q400 from ACV to GEG right now.....

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QXE813

Perhaps AS will send one of their jets down here to ACV and RDD to handle stranded passengers  crossfingers 
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting AirlineBrat (Reply 12):

No, you won't see Alaska at ACV or RDD. If anything they will get one of the good Q400's in there at some point in the day.QX is really making all efforts to get passengers to their destinations. The problem they may run into is just not having enough crews to keep the planes flying through the late evening to accommodate the people.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
flashmeister
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:23 am

It appears another is ferrying YYJ to PDX right now: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QXE803

Are they also ferrying a CR7 from DEN to BOI for stranded pax? http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QXE9850

According to the Web FIDS at flypdx.com, AS has these extra sections scheduled today to/from PDX:
7245: PDX-BOI
7295: SEA-PDX
7296: PDX-SEA
7229: SEA-PDX

This is definitely hitting QX's overall operation, as we'd all expect. Now seeing lots of 2h30m+ delays on the Seattle Shuttle flights that are still scheduled to operate. One shuttle arrival from Seattle is 3h45m delayed. A RNO flight also has a 2h delay.

Even still, pretty impressed that QX is doing as well as it is under rough circumstances. According to FlightStats, QX is running 89% on-time for departures and 93% on-time for arrivals so far today, despite 114 cancelled flights (as of 11:30am PDT). I think that's pretty remarkable, and shows how hard they're working to keep things as smooth as they can...

[Edited 2007-09-12 20:31:43]
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11):
So, has Bombardier said what the offending part(s) is/are, and what exactly you're looking for? Hopefully, you are at liberty to say...

I am just coming off of my weekend, so today begins my new work week. I found out about the groundings when I logged onto our internal website to check email...

As of now, I will not be able to find out more until I get to work at 8 tonight. If I can, I will certianly provide details on the inspections and what is the suspect parts.

All of the mechanics at SEA loathe the Q400 due to the extra work they make for us. I guess it is job security.

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 15):
All of the mechanics at SEA loathe the Q400 due to the extra work they make for us. I guess it is job security.

Kris

I'd love to see the jack stands that you guys have to use to swing the gear on a Dash 8  Wink
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bennett123
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:58 am

How long does it take to reach 10 K cycles.
 
apodino
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 17):
How long does it take to reach 10 K cycles.

Well assuming what Horizon uses them for, you can figure an average of maybe 7 cycles per day. That would be about 50 cycles a week, which equates to about 2600 cycles a year. So you would figure a little less than 4 years. But this is just a real rough estimate, and doesn't count C checks and stuff like that. But I would think it would get pretty close despite that.
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
I'd love to see the jack stands that you guys have to use to swing the gear on a Dash 8

Well, if an aircraft requires gear swings, we try our hardest to ferry the plane to PDX. It is a pain in the a** to do that kind of work in SEA as we do not have the manpower or proper facilities to do the job. In a worse case scenerio, we will do it, with manpower assistance from PDX. As for the jacks themselves, just picture a 737 tail jack, and you have our wing jacks...

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:49 am

Quoting AS739X (Thread starter):
Horizon has now grounded all Q400 with over a certain amount of cycles in response to SAS incidents.

Some Q400's came and left BOI this morning. One left very early and said that they would be "gear down" for their flight to GEG...thought that was interesting (QXE801, I believe). It was pretty slow today in BOI without the Q4's. I remember a DH8B coming in this morning and leaving but never returning.

Quoting Flashmeister (Reply 14):
Are they also ferrying a CR7 from DEN to BOI for stranded pax?

Yes, it came in while I was on shift...very unusual callsign for BOI so it must have been a replacement or ferry.
 
as739x
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 20):

Yeah, that must have been one of the 19 planes over 10K cycles that was ferried or grounded for mx. This left QX with 14 Q400's to cover a lot of ground. And if you add in that they are the a/c of choice on some long flights (West Montana, BOI-LAX,etc). It sure left QX in a pinch. But I think QX and AS did a good job dealing with the problem. I know many Bay Area pax had been rerouted already when I arrived at 5am.

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
QXFLYINGCOUG
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:49 am

Just noticed there was a QX plane flying STS-GEG yesterday and right now. I guess the grounding may be a reason for the strange routing... probably getting it's landing gear looked at. My parents were flying EAT-SEA and there flight is super behind schedule and it's just a Q-200 flight!
--GO COUGS--
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 21):
This left QX with 14 Q400's to cover a lot of ground.

That does not count Q400s that are down for other mx issues. At last look, there were 24 of 33 Q400 out of service. That is big chunk of the fleet right there... QX must be inspecting the entire fleet, not just the high time ones, as a few of the new aircraft are down for gear inspections (delivered in the past few months).

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
sea2pdx
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 23):
QX must be inspecting the entire fleet

Correct. This was going to happen as soon as Transport Canada issued their AD. All Q400s were going to require a MLG check before their next revenue flight. When necessary, the aircraft will ferry to a maintenance station for the inspection and then be redeployed into revenue service. To be clear, this was only for the aircraft that were *not* part of the original 19. Those 19 are still awaiting more detailed instruction from Bombardier on what the inspection will entail and how long it will take for them to enter revenue service again.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting Sea2Pdx (Reply 24):
This was going to happen as soon as Transport Canada issued their AD

Just out of (regulatory) curiousity: Does a Transport Canada AD automatically become an FAA AD? I know that in many parts of the world, an FAA AD automatically becomes an AD for the local equivalent of the FAA.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
EMBQA
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 25):
Does a Transport Canada AD automatically become an FAA AD?

No.... as they operate under different regulations... but it is given a serious look
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:36 am

So how long until the Denver news denounces F9's Q400s because of this?  Wink
 
freshlove1
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 27):
So how long until the Denver news denounces F9's Q400s because of this?

I am sure it may make the news as a general story but as long as F9 does the inspections and maintains the aircraft properly the Denver News hopefully will have nothing more on F9 to report about
 
RyDawg82
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 27):
So how long until the Denver news denounces F9's Q400s because of this?

They are on the verge of doing as such  Sad
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/p...es/ContentDetail?contentId=4334647


Ryan
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
UnknownUser
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:00 pm

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 29):
They are on the verge of doing as such
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/p...es/ContentDetail?contentId=4334647


Ryan

Absolutely the shittiest headline for an article I've seen in a while. The only paragraph that relates is the last and no where does it say that they are evaluating the safety.
Die Skybus!!! You need to die for the good of the industry!
 
socalatc
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:07 pm

Looks like QX has canceled the same amount of flights tomorrow, and probably more since now even the new Q-400's are out of service. Alaska has added 16 pax extras to PDX, BOI, GEG and back to SEA and PDX to support QX and these bad times.
 
aamd11
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:12 pm

As has been mentioned, it was on the advice of Bombardier that higher cycle aircraft were grounded. All carriers with frames with over 10,000 cycles were affected.

Later this afternoon, it was also recommended that further checks be performed on lower cycle frames too.

Up here in Canada, Porter Airlines' Q400 fleet (4 frames - the oldest having around 2,000 cycles) was inspected (again), simultaneously at around 3:30pm EDT in accordance with the second communication from Bombardier & Transport Canada.

I had heard that the newer frames have a slightly different gear design which isn't thought to be affected... well, they certainly don't suspect it, since they only grounded those with over 10,000 cycles (the two planes involved with SAS both had around 14,000 cycles if I'm not mistaken).

Could be an interesting few days ahead for Q400 operators.
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:27 pm

Anyone see Porter Air grounding their fleet??? They have a very young Q400 fleet, but this AD seems imminent.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting UnknownUser (Reply 30):

Absolutely the shittiest headline for an article I've seen in a while. The only paragraph that relates is the last and no where does it say that they are evaluating the safety.

I agree with you 110%.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
RyDawg82
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:43 pm

Quoting RyDawg82 (Reply 29):
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/p...es/ContentDetail?contentId=4334647

Link for "Frontier Evaluating New Turboprop's Safety" updated....
Also a second story "Bombardier Orders Turboprops Grounded" Makes similar reference to Frontier/Lynx towards the end.


-R
You can take the pup out of Alaska, but you can't take the Alaska out of the pup.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:38 pm

So,

Any word yet on what the problem is that they're actually looking for?

So far, the actual problem itself that's being inspected for hasn't been revealed to the general public  eyebrow 
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
KELPkid
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:42 am

KBFI,

Any news on what you're looking for with the Q400 landing gear? I'm sure you've put in lots of overtime the past couple of days  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
aamd11
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:37 am

"Anyone see Porter Air grounding their fleet???"

PD's fleet was inspected visually at least twice on Wednesday, in accordance with advice from Transport Canada and Bombardier. As I mentioned earlier, all four aircraft were inspected simultaneously (2 in Toronto, 1 each in Ottawa and Montréal) in the afternoon.

So far, there's no indication that a grounding is likely or imminent... whatever it was they were looking for, they didn't find any signs of, and the fleet has continued in regular service ever since. Ticket sales (very briefly suspended for travel on Wednesday, as a precaution) have continued as normal since then.

No indication yet as to what exactly they were looking for, but it's a positive sign that they haven't found it.

Long live the Q400.  airplane 
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 21):
This left QX with 14 Q400's to cover a lot of ground. And if you add in that they are the a/c of choice on some long flights (West Montana, BOI-LAX,etc). It sure left QX in a pinch.

I noticed AS put a -800 on the SEA-BOI flight today instead of the usual -400. No doubt to make up for some lost seats SEA-BOI-SEA.
 
HowSwedeitis
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:32 am

I wonder how this will affect "The Slog?"  Wink
Heja Sverige!!
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 37):
KBFI,

Any news on what you're looking for with the Q400 landing gear? I'm sure you've put in lots of overtime the past couple of days

Actually SEA has been dead... I did two DVIs (Detailed Visual Inspection) of the MLG on two of our recent deliveries Wed night, and we were concentrating on the retraction actuator. The AD note for the high cycle a/c deals heavily with this component, but I have no idea what it calls out for specifically. I have not seen the paperwork yet, as the actual work on the critical a/c is being done in PDX or GEG. I have been told thought that it looks like it will become a recurring inspection item on the whole fleet of Q400s...

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 40):
I wonder how this will affect "The Slog?"

We are down to half capacity on the shuttle at the moment. A few of my coworkers here in SEA commute from PDX, and they have been stranded here because they have not been able to get a seat on a flight. Hopefully the shuttle will return to normal in the next couple of days as Q400s are returned to service. We had a couple of CRJ repos last night, including a F9 contract bird...

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:41 am

A possibility of too much media hype to kill the type?
 
bok269
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RE: Horizon Grounds All Q400 W/ High Cycles

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 42):
A possibility of too much media hype to kill the type?

It's always a possibity, but remember it almost always seems that way after a major incident.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac