adicool
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

LH And Latin America...?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:37 am

Yes, maybe you will have noticed this...LH and Latin America is a very emotional theme for me for particular reasons.
I just wondered for quite some time now: What's the deal, LH? Why oh why have the stopped serving so many destinations there? It really can't be because of low yields...I mean, AF/KL and IB are doing just fine, especially AF/KL could gained some fabulous brand recognition there over the last years (i.d. their double daily CDG-GIG service and their new and very well going AMS-LIM service...not the mention AMS-UIO/GUY).
So why did LH stop serving the destination and why do they seem to they seem to be so lukewarm about this region.
Their new non-stop service from FRA to EZE is the first step...but seriously...they only serve what?

FRA-EZE
FRA-GRU
MUC-GRU
FRA-CCS
FRA-MEX

Where are BOG, LIM and SCL. Especially their service to SCL bothers me. I know, they serve it through LX and GRU, but still...AF also managed to fly there non-stop and I know that, because of the still notable yet very small German minority there, LH have a very good reputation in Chile...
KL is on the verge to start serving even more destination like SJO and PTY. Cuba is also nowhere near on LHs route map.

Does anyone know if they will finally start their long rumoured FRA-BOG service (with a possible connection to LIM?)?

AF/KL and IB are the dominant carriers in this region, and AF/KL will eventually surpass IB in revenue...If LH don't do some in a foreseeable future, they will totally loose out in the market.

just my two cents
 
LH506
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 9:48 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:10 am

Last thing I have heard is that BOG and LIM will start as soon as the codeshare agreement with TACA is signed. End of this year / beginning of 2008. So let's see.
NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 77L 788 300B2 300B4 345 359 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40 Q1/2/3 M87
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:40 pm

We discussed this some times during the past months and it's clear they miss at least LIM, BOG, GIG, a daily service to EZE (will be only 5x weekly EZE-FRA), and a non-stop service to SCL.

The strong results AF obtain in South America is a clear indication LH could do ever better with no doubt.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
airportmanager
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:49 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:20 pm

I wish that LH would come back to UIO!!! Hopefully someday
 
SQ325
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2001 7:54 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:39 pm

LH has presently not enough Long Haul Aircrafts and not enough pilots to grow everywhere.
They are just starting Lahore and Karachi, aswell as they increased their presence in India.
They added MUC-ICN-PUS and MUC-GRU.
I hope LH will increase their Latin/South americe network.
But let us not forget, there is still no decision about a possible Iberia deal, of which i think will never happen.
I'm sure at some point LH wants to have a piece of the south america cake.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 511
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting Adicool (Thread starter):
AF/KL will eventually surpass IB in revenue

Do you have references to back up this statement or it's just a matter of feeling?

IMO, IB will be the strongest player in LatAm for years to come, load wise and yield wise. IB have turned around big losses into profit over the last 3 years and one of their biggest contributors is the long haul network (90% of IB long haul ops are to LatAm) and specially their Business Plus product.
744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
 
adicool
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 3):
I wish that LH would come back to UIO!!! Hopefully someday

Keep saying it...every day I wake up and hope for the best...Maybe Quito can attract some new European carriers besides IB and KL when the new airport will be finished...do you know when this is suppose to happen?

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 4):
But let us not forget, there is still no decision about a possible Iberia deal, of which i think will never happen.

I have to say, I am really not a big fan of IB and their service. I really don't like to idea of having to fly BRE-FRA-MAD-GUY for example...just dreadful. LHs service is, imho, without a doubt superior to IBs, especially their buisness and first class products. But this whole AF-KL/BA/LH + IB-thing is becoming really annoying I have to say.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5):
Do you have references to back up this statement or it's just a matter of feeling?

Just a feeling...not all Latin American pax that fly with IB want to go to Madrid respectivly Spain...a lot of them also need to transfer there and the networks of AF and KL are better elaborated then IB...just look Eastern Europe or Middle East.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Adicool (Thread starter):
AF/KL could gained some fabulous brand recognition there over the last years (i.d. their double daily CDG-GIG service and their new and very well going AMS-LIM service...not the mention AMS-UIO/GUY).

Did you mean Guayaquil: GYE?
KL flies AMS-BON-GYE-UIO-BON-AMS with MD-11.


.

Quoting Adicool (Thread starter):
KL is on the verge to start serving even more destination like SJO and PTY.

KL has considered AMS-PTY and AF CDG-SJO.


.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 1):
Last thing I have heard is that BOG and LIM will start as soon as the codeshare agreement with TACA is signed

You are right: TA and LH have established an agreement. TA tends to Star Alliance meaning this point makes sense.
For the meantime, the daylight LIM-CCS could be easy involved with the long-haul CCS-FRA with 343.
Likewise LIM-CCS can be feeding with TA passengers coming from some affordable destinations through LIM.
I am not clear about how BOG will work with TA-LH.
Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19046
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:20 pm

Quoting Adicool (Thread starter):
Where are BOG, LIM and SCL. Especially their service to SCL bothers me. I know, they serve it through LX and GRU, but still.

One factor may be the fact that a round trip route like FRA-LIM-FRA or FRA-SCL-FRA takes longer than 24 hours so you need more than aircraft to operate a daily or almost daily service which is expected by business traffic these days. If you have other market opportunities, like additional routes/frequencies to North America (such as LH's new A340 services DUS-EWR/ORD/YYZ starting in May) or to closer parts of Asia like India etc., where most routes permit a round trip in less than 24 hours, you get much better productivity since one aircraft can do the job of two which would be needed to many destinations in South America.
 
wolflair
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:26 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:08 pm

Quote:
One factor may be the fact that a round trip route like FRA-LIM-FRA or FRA-SCL-FRA takes longer than 24 hours so you need more than aircraft to operate a daily or almost daily service which is expected by business traffic these days. If you have other market opportunities, like additional routes/frequencies to North America (such as LH's new A340 services DUS-EWR/ORD/YYZ starting in May) or to closer parts of Asia like India etc., where most routes permit a round trip in less than 24 hours, you get much better productivity since one aircraft can do the job of two which would be needed to many destinations in South America.

That is exactly why LH has not yet reestablished frequencies over 7x to MEX. I remember in 2003 there were almost 14x and the planes were usually full. Interestingly, those flights left FRA and MEX with only 1 hr. of difference.

IMO, there is a market for more frequencies to Latinamerica, but LH management had to make a decision regarding capacity management: either sending the planes where the route would be more profitable (measured by route turnaround and asset utilisation), i.e. China, or sticking to a profitable market which required more resources to generate the same revenue. Obviously, those birds started going east.
JMM -A319,A320,A321,A333,A343,AT45,AT72,B462,B722,B737s from -200 to -800,B744,B752,B762,B763,BE35,DC91,F70,Ju52,MD80,S3
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 8):
One factor may be the fact that a round trip route like FRA-LIM-FRA or FRA-SCL-FRA takes longer than 24 hours so you need more than aircraft to operate a daily or almost daily service which is expected by business traffic these days.

And furthermore I heard from a LH representative that, at the moment, they are quite happy with the LX ZRH-GRU-SCL flight.
 
columba
Posts: 5045
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 4):
But let us not forget, there is still no decision about a possible Iberia deal,

..and about new longhaul aircraft for replacement of older aircraft but also for growth and new routes.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
airportmanager
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:49 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Adicool (Reply 6):
Keep saying it...every day I wake up and hope for the best...Maybe Quito can attract some new European carriers besides IB and KL when the new airport will be finished...do you know when this is suppose to happen?

the hew airportrt will scare the airlines and all of them will fly to GYE, thats because the new airport will be a S***T. Its all a matter of money interests between the Mayor and the people who are building it. The Control tower! ONLY the control tower will cost MORE than all GYE's new terminal! is that possible? Stupid people! I hate them, and besides, so many other stuff that will make new UIO a terrible terrible TERRIBLE airport, of course, the adminsitration which suxs! And we have so far I think one of the most expensive south american airport taxes or fees as passengers in one of south americas crapiest and most ridiculous airports. You travel down to GYE, the same country, and even before the new terminal, it was 100 times better than this airport..... VIVA QUITO.

So hopefully one day, LH will come back to this airport, because no one will fly to the new airport (Sorry i drifted off a bit)
 
Fyano773
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:03 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:50 am

Quoting Adicool (Thread starter):
just wondered for quite some time now: What's the deal, LH? Why oh why have the stopped serving so many destinations there? It really can't be because of low yields... So why did LH stop serving the destination and why do they seem to they seem to be so lukewarm about this region.

LH also reduced service FRA-MEX from 10X to 7X few years ago, but LH officials announced that new frequencies or destinations to MEX will be analyzed to be eventually launched next year.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5):
Quoting Adicool (Thread starter):
AF/KL will eventually surpass IB in revenue

Do you have references to back up this statement or it's just a matter of feeling?

Regarding MEX, AF/KL had a combined offer of 21X weekly fligths from CDG and AMS this summer; IB only 14X.

Fyano
 
aer
Posts: 656
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:10 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 7):
KL has considered AMS-PTY and AF CDG-SJO.

Any stops at GUA??? hehe

Also hoping for LH to say, hey... GUA, why not? (wishfull thinking)
nice and spacious airports in need of new airlines and flights... GUA or FRS anyone?... anyone at all?
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting Aer (Reply 14):
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 7):
KL has considered AMS-PTY and AF CDG-SJO.

Any stops at GUA??? hehe

According to the Panamanian AAC KL will start flights to PTY in 2008. From what I understand it will be non stop on an MD-11 with onwards connections offered through their SkyTeam partner CM.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
CDG
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:28 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 2):
The strong results AF obtain in South America is a clear indication LH could do ever better with no doubt.

Dear LipeGIG,

I've been wondering about this for quite some time now....
So i would like to know is there a risk of overcapacity from Europe to Brazil with all the newly frequencies being added ?

Cheers
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 13):
Regarding MEX, AF/KL had a combined offer of 21X weekly fligths from CDG and AMS this summer; IB only 14X.

Long-hauls to Latin America on IB and AF/KL exclusively:
IB and AF/KL: MEX, HAV, SDQ, BOG, UIO, GYE, GIG, GRU, CCS, SCL, LIM and EZE.
IB: SJU, PTY, GUA, SJO and MVD.
AF: PUJ plus other French territories in the Caribbean: FDF and PTP.


.

Quoting Aer (Reply 14):
Also hoping for LH to say, hey... GUA, why not?

Nowadays it is hard to believe if LH would operate someday in Central America using their own frames.
The presence of LH in Latin America is rather limited as compared with IB and AF/KL.
LH has dropped some destinations in South America as posted out previously.
On the other hand, the system TA-LH in Central America could be likely developing in the future supplying code-shares operations in order to feed LH's long-hauls departing whether from MEX or CCS.  Wink
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6238
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting Fyano773 (Reply 13):
LH officials announced that new frequencies or destinations to MEX will be analyzed to be eventually launched next year.

I really think that a MUC-MEX flight would be very successful. And I definitely hope that the FRA-MEX flight will be operated with A388s. On a related matter, there were some rumors that LH was thinking about starting FRA-MTY... I wonder if that is still a possibility.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
adicool
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:38 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:18 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 17):
Long-hauls to Latin America on IB and AF/KL exclusively:
IB and AF/KL: MEX, HAV, SDQ, BOG, UIO, GYE, GIG, GRU, CCS, SCL, LIM and EZE.
IB: SJU, PTY, GUA, SJO and MVD.
AF: PUJ plus other French territories in the Caribbean: FDF and PTP.

Plus KL flights to BON, PMB, CUR, SXM and AUA....
AF are also planning new services within their intra-carribean network (i.d. CAY-MIA).

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
On a related matter, there were some rumors that LH was thinking about starting FRA-MTY... I wonder if that is still a possibility.

I have to say, I think it's quite weird that most intercontinental air traffic departures and arrives in MEX - yet there are 100 million people in México. I think services to other main Méxican cities like Guadalajara, Cancún or Monterry could also work for European carriers.

I think LH will try some new Latin American services from MUC (like already said MUC-MEX). LH should try to resume services to GIG and BOG ASAP. But I still have some decent hope that services to BOG and LIM could very well start in a foreseeable future...especially since rumors are true and AV could join *A within the next year. That would be truly great (I think services to GYE and UIO won't see LH anytime soon...rather codeshare with AV from BOG).
 
globeex
Posts: 265
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:33 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 18):
I really think that a MUC-MEX flight would be very successful. And I definitely hope that the FRA-MEX flight will be operated with A388s.

I think the A380 on a FRA-MEX run is kind of a given. Only thing that could come in its way might however be a new MUC-MEX run, but first the would need the aircrafts to operate such a run, but the these will come as well. So lets just wait.

GlobeEx
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 2424
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting Adicool (Reply 19):
Plus KL flights to BON, PMB, CUR, SXM and AUA....

My quote was related for those destinations placed in Latin America exclusively, meaning those regions in the continent where languages derived from Latin are primarily spoken: Spanish, Portuguese and French.  Smile
Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5050
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: LH And Latin America...?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting CDG" class=quote target=_blank>CDG (Reply 16):
I've been wondering about this for quite some time now....
So i would like to know is there a risk of overcapacity from Europe to Brazil with all the newly frequencies being added ?

Dear CDG, yes there is a risk of overcapacity considering the new frequencies as well as considering upgrades:

Have been added recently....

LIS (5x GIG , 3x GRU, 5x BSB)

We will see new services....

GRU-MAD (2x IB, 7x JJ, 7x RG)
GIG-MAD (2x IB, 3x UX)
GIG-CDG (7x AF , 5x during IATA summer)
GRU-CDG (7x RG)
GIG-FCO (7x RG)
GRU-GIG-LHR (7x RG, begins 5x very shortly)
GRU-LHR (3x BA seasonal service)
GRU-FRA (7x JJ)
GRU-DXB* (6x EK, should reduce the demand for Asian Connections)

And upgrades...

GRU-AMS (from 772 to 773)
GRU-MUC (from 343 to 346)
GRU-FRA (from EZE-GRU-FRA to a dedicated service)

IMO, Brazilian marvellous fares will go down (and in fact right now is easy to find out a US$ 899 deal R/T to Europe while last year the same month you wont get anything for less than US$ 1,600) but keep on an interesting level. Some airlines, like AF keep filling their C class with healthy yields, but many are looking for cheap fares (BA is selling C for US$ 4,200 giving you a second ticket for free on their seasonal service, and some A.Net members get this offer) to fill their planes. Yields are not so good as in 2006 for sure.

You can check the offers on two consolidators web-sites: www.rextur.com.br and www.gapnet.com.br

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !