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chrisnh
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What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:46 am

In watching the History Channel depiction of Flight 11, it's clear that a cloudless sky led that plane and UA 175 to the Twin Towers. But what if the weather hadn't been as clear as it was? Were all the hijackers prepared so that they could have simply done it the next day...or the day after?

I don't think this event happens as it did with even a smattering of clouds, never mind total 'undercast.' These guys flew by sight.

Chris in NH
 
deltadc9
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:54 am

From what I recall, they had a way planned to postpone and wait for a clear day. We really dont know for sure if 9/11 was the first day or if it was indeed simply the first clear day after the go-ahead, do we?

I know they claim significance with the date, but that may be after the fact BS....
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airfinair
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:04 am

Chris - Very interesting point. With today's weather forcasting, they probably had a good idea of the best day to go about 4-5 days out. I don't recall, but did they buy their tickets at the gate that day or ahead of time? If ahead of time, how far ahead? Is there any way we can find the actual weather conditions for the east coast 3 days before to 3 days after 9/11/2001? That would help, too.

And I agree with DeltaDC9 - the date consperacy is BS. What if there was a hurricane up the east coast that day? Wait a year for the next 9/11 to roll around?
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Stitch
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 2):
I don't recall, but did they buy their tickets at the gate that day or ahead of time? If ahead of time, how far ahead?

I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers who paid cash for full F and Y fares.
 
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers who paid cash for full F and Y fares.

Couldn't they simply have bought full-fare tickets in advance, allowing them to use them when convenient? Given how well-planned out everything was (they did plan down to a very fine level of detail), I would think they did not want to leave anything to chance by walking up on the day of their attack to buy the tickets.
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LAXspotter
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
paid cash for full F and Y fares.

if you do some research, different hijackers purchased their tickets thru various means, including Credit Cards, and buying them from the Airline ticket counters and so on.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
EMBQA
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers

Nope... this was planned and the tickets were purchased in advance.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
bok269
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:13 am

Funny I was wondering the same thing. I am sure they had it planned out. I wonder if things would have turned out for the better had conditions gotten worse mid-flight.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
ltbewr
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:33 am

I would suspect anything except a significant rain storm or a low ceiling could have deferred the date of their acts. That is something they could have figured out the day before, get a refund on their tickets fo 9/11 and bought others to try on the next Tuesday. Don't forget that the conditions on 9/11/01 were exceptional, called 'severe clear' due to the absence of any clouds.
However, if there had been a delay of a week due to the weather, perhaps it would have given enough time for the info on the a-hole who got turned in by the Minnesota flight school to get through the FBI and other authorities and take action to prevent the attacks. Stricter security policies and procedures like banning all knives or sharp tools in flight carryons could have been put into place, maybe the particular people be snitched on and caught, or at least scare them off due to the changes.
 
deltadc9
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
I am pretty sure they were walk-up customers who paid cash for full F and Y fares.

While not all of them did this, buying tickets with cash is now a big red flag for a reason.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 8):
Don't forget that the conditions on 9/11/01 were exceptional

I remember looking up on the way from the parking lot to the building where I work and thinking how odd the sky was, then as I passed the security desk, they were watching it on the tv. Very seldom is the sky that clear over such a huge area, I was in southern Indiana!
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chrisnh
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:46 pm

The sick feeling I got was actually seeing AA 11 departing from Logan on 9/11/01. I worked in Boston at the time and took commuter rail into North Station. I'd often see that 767 lifting off as our train was pulling into the station. Having taken AA 11 several times, years ago when it was a DC-10, I knew what I was seeing as that shiny, metallic 767 lifted off. That was the only AA 767 at that particular time leaving Boston.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:00 pm

Does it really matter if they had advance bookings or walk up tickets? This was not a spur of the moment thing. Had the weather been bad, it would have happened another day. They obviously had the resources to buy tickets whenever they needed them. The date was of no significance. If they really had wanted to cut at the hearts of Americans by tying the attacks to a particular date, it would have happened on July 4th.
 
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:01 pm

Not to minimize anything at all, but it is an interesting paradox in that the severe clear that allowed the hijackers to easily navigate to their targets also, I've heard mentioned many times, absoloutly helped with the safe implementation of ATC Zero following the attacks.

bcoz
 
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:34 pm

According to the National Graphic special Road to 911, one of the best documentaries I ve ever seen, the date was picked about 10 days to 2 weeks before. A message was sent from Atta to Spain I believe it said. Two match sticks , a dash and an upside down birthday cake......11-9.


Of course feeble minded muslims who support the 9-11 attacks will say that God make the skies clear so that the myrters could accomplish their mission against the great satan.
 
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 13):
Of course feeble minded muslims who support the 9-11 attacks will say that God make the skies clear so that the myrters could accomplish their mission against the great satan.

ROFL, you know, lots of people would look at this one as offensive maybe, but for me, i just thought it was funny! i hear that often from a lot of my colleagues as an excuze! blame every thing on god. (yes according to someone's beleif, you do ask god's help, but when you dont do any effort and blame your failure on god, is just sick)
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:54 pm

The investigations show that Tuesday was specifically picked as the day of the week because of it's traditionally low passenger volume, with Wednesday as a possible alternate.

The hijackers also had plans to just ride the planes to destination if the weather was bad and try again the next week.

It wasn't so much that they might miss the targets - but that the hijackers were not prepared or ready to fly in IMC conditions. They could have very easily have gotten disoriented and fallen out of the sky in IMC. Their 'skill' level made clear weather essential.
 
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 11):
The date was of no significance. If they really had wanted to cut at the hearts of Americans by tying the attacks to a particular date, it would have happened on July 4th.

I agree with you, but would the flight not have been very busy on 4th July?

I think perhaps they did not realise what 9-11 meant to most Americans, to them it was
just a date like 11th September
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steeler83
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 13):
Of course feeble minded muslims who support the 9-11 attacks will say that God make the skies clear so that the myrters could accomplish their mission against the great satan.

According to them, I am going to hell... along with 300 million other people.

Seriously, these idiots have to be among the STUPIDEST people ALIVE!!! "hey, I am going to strap dynamite to myself, run around like a moron through a crowded marketplace, and take innocent lives with me, because I am a good boy! - hahahahaha"

And WE are the "bad guys"???
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acelanzarote
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
Seriously, these idiots have to be among the STUPIDEST people ALIVE!!! "hey, I am going to strap dynamite to myself, run around like a moron through a crowded marketplace, and take innocent lives with me, because I am a good boy! - hahahahaha"

Think its call 'brainwashing' mind you could argue you need a brain first to be brainwashed......!
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osiris30
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
And WE are the "bad guys"???

Note: Prior to making this point a disclaimer is necessary lest I get flamed into oblivion; I in no way, shape, or form support terrorist activities or the killing/torture/intentional injury of civilians, non-combatant members of the military or governments of any race/country/creed. Now with that said;

We all share a little blame for the state of the world today, the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. Certain conditions must exist in the first place for people to be uneducated/depressed/repressed enough to kill themselves and others. Humans are by nature very into NOT dieing, so something has to be waaaay out of whack to make people wanna blow themselves up (I'm not talking about 1 or 2 whack jobs here). We (the 'good guys' or 'bad guys' depending on your viewpoint) turned a blind eye to these conditions while they developed, when we had the ability to step in and help change things a LONG time ago.

Simply laying blame soley on one side, or group of people is doing EXACTLY the same thing that 'they' are doing, so bear that in mind  Smile

[stepping off the soap box now]
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 16):
I think perhaps they did not realise what 9-11 meant to most Americans,

They were, of course, ignorants according to you! I disagree, I think the attack was initially planned on 9/11 (9-1-1), such as the attacks in Madrid which happened exactly 9-1-1 days after... As evil as they were, they were obviously anything but stupid.

Not a clear day? Well, don't planes have radars and other navigation systems? One must be blind to actually miss a target of the height and size of the WTC... Just use google-earth, you'll find the exact location and coordinates of anything you want in any big city. As easy as it could be.
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 14):
ROFL, you know, lots of people would look at this one as offensive maybe, but for me, i just thought it was funny! i hear that often from a lot of my colleagues as an excuze! blame every thing on god. (yes according to someone's beleif, you do ask god's help, but when you dont do any effort and blame your failure on god, is just sick

I understand how some of these people think...

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 16):
I agree with you, but would the flight not have been very busy on 4th July?

Except the death toll would have been at most 300, not 3000. WTC, Pentagon would have been closed.
 
bok269
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 20):
Not a clear day? Well, don't planes have radars and other navigation systems? One must be blind to actually miss a target of the height and size of the WTC... Just use google-earth, you'll find the exact location and coordinates of anything you want in any big city. As easy as it could be.

Sure Aircraft have navigation instruments, but what everyone is saying is that the terrorists weren't good enough pilots to use them. They weren't qualified in IFR procedures. Using a GPS in a plane is not as simple as in a car. Sure they knew where it was, doesnt mean they could have gotten there.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 19):
We all share a little blame for the state of the world today, the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys'. Certain conditions must exist in the first place for people to be uneducated/depressed/repressed enough to kill themselves and others.

I hope youre not using the tired old Cherrie Blair excuse for terrorism: Poverty and lack of education. If you study Islamic Extremism youll find that it is those who are wealthy, educated and have had contact with the west who are the most extreme...not some poor bedouin living in a tent with no possessions. The root of Al Qaeda go to an Eqyptian named Sydd Qtub, a man who studied at the university of Colorado in 1949. Al Qaeda's #2 man Alman Al Zyhirir speaks almost perfect english and is a medical doctor. Mohammed Atta was a Master's in City Planning, Ziad Jirah lived a educated secular lifestyle, even living with his turkish girlfriend.


If poverty were the reason, we would see Haitians blowing themselves up in Miami

People attracted to the poverty as a root of terrorism because it means:
1. The solution is an easy fix
2. We dont need to use violence or the military but the peace corps.
3. We are not in an idealogical life and death struggle
 
rfields5421
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting (Reply 22):
? One must be blind to actually miss a target of the height and size of the WTC

The second plane came very close to missing the WTC. The towers were relatively small - only 208 feet wide.

This is just my guess - but I suspect that the terrorist thought flying faster would do more damage. They were going very fast for trying to hit a stationary target.

Or they might not have been good at getting an aircraft that big slowed down and stable.

They had never flown large aircraft.

It would be like a 15 year old student driver getting into an 18-wheeler and trying to go through a toll booth at 120 mph.

[Edited 2007-09-13 18:37:32]

[Edited 2007-09-13 18:38:33]
 
osiris30
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 23):
I hope youre not using the tired old Cherrie Blair excuse for terrorism: Poverty and lack of education.

Yes the tired old excuse that people who are happy with their life don't actually go off and kill themselves and others regularly. Silly me for applying a little LOGIC to the situtation rather than anti-Islamic hyperbole.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 23):
If you study Islamic Extremism youll find that it is those who are wealthy, educated and have had contact with the west who are the most extreme...not some poor bedouin living in a tent with no possessions.

And said people never actually blow themselves up. It's almost always the poor they sucker into blowing themselves up. Much like it's very often the poorer classes that end up in the military's of many countries. How many blue bloods do you see in the military.. it's a pretty rare sight.. and this is the same thing. Or you can chose to ignore that little fact if it doesn't suit your arguement.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 23):
The root of Al Qaeda go to an Eqyptian named Sydd Qtub, a man who studied at the university of Colorado in 1949. Al Qaeda's #2 man Alman Al Zyhirir speaks almost perfect english and is a medical doctor. Mohammed Atta was a Master's in City Planning, Ziad Jirah lived a educated secular lifestyle, even living with his turkish girlfriend.

Please see above. Al Qaeda's #2 man *speaks* almost perfect English. I.e. hasn't blown his a** to kingdom come.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 23):
If poverty were the reason, we would see Haitians blowing themselves up in Miami

Wow.. now there's a leap... Poverty isn't the SOLE reason, but it is a major contributing factor. And Haiti has huge violence and crime problems. I would *really* suggest you study how socio-economic policies affect crime, violence, religious exteremism before you spout off about something you which you seem to have only a cursory grasp of.

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 23):
People attracted to the poverty as a root of terrorism because it means:
1. The solution is an easy fix
2. We dont need to use violence or the military but the peace corps.
3. We are not in an idealogical life and death struggle

Or maybe, because some people can actually show you that most extremism, revolts, upheavals, etc. are usually led by lower classes revolting against upper classes out of something which is human nature, and is known as GREED.

But just keep waiving the flag and telling yourself that the west is blameless in this situation if it helps you sleep at night.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):
Or maybe, because some people can actually show you that most extremism, revolts, upheavals, etc. are usually led by lower classes revolting against upper classes out of something which is human nature, and is known as GREED.

Like most of your other points, Ill just comment on this one...it is untrue. Revolution traditionally has been led by those from the upper classes, against the upper classes....French Revolution being an exception.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):
How many blue bloods do you see in the military.. it's a pretty rare sight..

Most people fighting in the US military could do very well in the private sector. This 1960s attitude of the military must die...the military is a profession, not a dumping ground for the poor and uneducated.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:56 am

Dont think Islamic Extremism and Jihad have anything to do with class struggle in the marxist sense, they dont.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):

it would have been 9/12 , 9/13 , 9/14 etc.
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PHLBOS
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:05 am

Af ew years back while watching a weather forcast on Sept. 11 (IIRC 2003); one forcaster reminded people that had Hurricane Erin (which occurred in 2001) tracked further west, it would have definitely impacted air travel on the East Coast during 9/11/01.

Erin is storm #5 on the attached map.
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/2001.html
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bok269
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):

As previous posters have said, the hijackers of 9/11 were well educated. A suicide bombing may not take much to plan, but a well orchestrated plot like this does. Many of these scumbags were college educated and even had higher degrees. THey didn't do this cause of the money their family would get. They did it beause they thought it was the good thing to do. Sure some suicide bombers do it so their family would get some money, but that wasn't the case here. Some of the grunts in the terrrorism world may be impoverished and uneducated, but the higher ups and ones conducting "operations" like 9-11 were not.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
soon7x7
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:23 am

Some of the most stable and predictable weather in the New York area is end of August and beginning of September.You can pretty much count on a forecast a week or more in advance...in start of Sept cold fronts start progressing into the area yielding SEVERE CLEAR DAYS with light winds out of NW.My guess is these guys were nothing more that VERY GREEN vfr students with limited info that needed good weather to pull it off.Although it has been argued that they rolled the aircraft into turns to effect the most damage I also believe from the videos that the United 767 at its last moments before impact was biased by a left cross wind out of the NW as evident by the radical left turn that is seen in the videos, aircraft was probably close to V ne!...or intentionally out of control.
 
OHLHD
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am

Than they had tried it another day.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):

There is much more behind than Good Guy - Bad Guy. Given the fact in which poor conditions those suicide bombers grow up they are perfect targets for recruiters. They offer them money, food, clothes etc and what is most important these recruiters support their families after their death. We cannot understand why they do is.
 
OHLHD
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:30 am

Than they had tried it another day.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):

There is much more behind than Good Guy - Bad Guy. Given the fact in which poor conditions those suicide bombers grow up they are perfect targets for recruiters. They offer them money, food, clothes etc and what is most important these recruiters support their families after their death. We cannot understand why they do this.
 
bok269
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:39 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 33):

There is much more behind than Good Guy - Bad Guy. Given the fact in which poor conditions those suicide bombers grow up they are perfect targets for recruiters. They offer them money, food, clothes etc and what is most important these recruiters support their families after their death. We cannot understand why they do this.

What everyone has been saying is that this wasn't the case with the 9/11 hijackers. It may be that way with "normal" suicide bombers, but 9/11 was no "normal" suicide bombing.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
OHLHD
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 34):
What everyone has been saying is that this wasn't the case with the 9/11 hijackers. It may be that way with "normal" suicide bombers, but 9/11 was no "normal" suicide bombing.



Fully agree. Maybe I should have pointed that out.  Smile
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 18):
Think its call 'brainwashing' mind you could argue you need a brain first to be brainwashed......!

Agreed to a certain extent. But like all religions, different factions have different takes on what the same words mean (i've read it all).

i do think, however, that if it werent a clear day they would not have excecuted the attacks. for the adrenaline and undoubted stress upon the would be pilots of that day, i personally think if it werent a clear day the could have clipped some other buildings as they would have attempted to get lower and lower to see the skyline of the city better in adverse weather. too low, too late.

and the conspiracies continue......
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LAXspotter
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
Seriously, these idiots have to be among the STUPIDEST people ALIVE!!! "hey, I am going to strap dynamite to myself, run around like a moron through a crowded marketplace, and take innocent lives with me, because I am a good boy! - hahahahaha"

Who are these idiots you are referring to? the average muslim or the extremist?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
aaden
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 22):
Sure Aircraft have navigation instruments, but what everyone is saying is that the terrorists weren't good enough pilots to use them. They weren't qualified in IFR procedures. Using a GPS in a plane is not as simple as in a car. Sure they knew where it was, doesnt mean they could have gotten there.

speaking of which, does anyone know how the terrorists managed to find there way back to the trade centers? without the use of the aircrafts navagation systems.
 
bok269
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting AAden (Reply 38):

speaking of which, does anyone know how the terrorists managed to find there way back to the trade centers? without the use of the aircrafts navagation systems.

I think it was pretty much VFR. They may have had some knowledge, but it was probably very rudimentary (ie, not enough to aim at a target in little vis). I think they basically just turned left towards NY, maybe looking at the GPS to orient themselves. They didn't exactly do a great job, look at UAL175:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:911_commission_UA175_path.png
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
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chrisnh
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting AAden (Reply 38):
speaking of which, does anyone know how the terrorists managed to find there way back to the trade centers? without the use of the aircrafts navagation systems.

It was noted that they (both 11 and 175) banged a left near Albany and just followed the Hudson River. I think Flight 175 might have had some awkward moves before essentially following the River south to Manhattan as Flight 11 had done many minutes beforehand. Talk about 'even a child could do it.'
 
ssides
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:55 am

I have read that United 93 was delayed for about 45 minutes on the ground after leaving the gate. Had it taken off on schedule, the heroic passengers on board would probably not have been aware of the other attacks, and the hijackers would likely have succeeded in reaching their goal -- probably the US Capitol.
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 40):

It was noted that they (both 11 and 175) banged a left near Albany and just followed the Hudson River. I think Flight 175 might have had some awkward moves before essentially following the River south to Manhattan as Flight 11 had done many minutes beforehand. Talk about 'even a child could do it.'

That makes sense, as I remember reading about at least one of the hijackers (Atta?) doing a practice solo flight up the hudson river.
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 40):
It was noted that they (both 11 and 175) banged a left near Albany and just followed the Hudson River.

That was only true for AA 11. According to the 9/11 Commision Report (see page 32 on below-link) as well as nearly every magazine article published when the event occured; UA 175 flew a more southern route than AA 11 and turned southward around somewhere over the Lehigh Valley (ABE) area and then turned northerly around Trenton.

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2...www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf

Something worth noting: the 2 fore-mentioned flight routes that are assigned for BOS-LAX flights have been around since the late 1950s. AA 11 flew the northerly route and UA 175 flew the southerly route. Given the fact that these flights departed within 15 minutes of each other; one can logically assume that on a clear day that the two flights would not be assigned the same routing.

These routings have existed since the late 1950s. I know that because my mother (before she married) was a stewardess for AA just when the 707 first stated flying. She told me about those 2 routings and also the fact that she was on duty several times for those early Flight 11s (which were 707s and departed BOS at 11 AM at the time).

Quoting Ssides (Reply 41):
I have read that United 93 was delayed for about 45 minutes on the ground after leaving the gate. Had it taken off on schedule, the heroic passengers on board would probably not have been aware of the other attacks, and the hijackers would likely have succeeded in reaching their goal -- probably the US Capitol.

Had UA 93 taken off at least 4 minutes later than it did; people in that plane would've seen the North Tower getting hit.

[Edited 2007-09-13 23:15:31]
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 37):
Who are these idiots you are referring to? the average muslim or the extremist?

The extremists. People have come forward and stated that it is against the Koran to commit some of those silly tactics that the extremists commit... I don't think the spelling is correct, and I apoligize for that. The extremists, such as Osama and his "group of deciples" are under this dilusion that Americans are infidels.
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:32 am

The answers to the question as initially posed - was the exceptionally clear day a major factor - seems to be all speculation - does anyone know if the many inquiries and reports dealt with this specific issue. It is one aspect of the tragedy that has always intrigued me, since as far as I can tell, it was a very clear day over most of the NE US and Canada, and I have always wondered if the ability of the hijackers to find their targets depended on their ability to find obvious landmarks that led them to where they wanted to go. I have not read the reports, but I don't believe I have ever heard the clear weather mentioned as a factor. It was the first thing I thought of, so I have often wondered if it was.
 
RobertS975
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:44 am

It was a perfectly clear day that Tuesday morning, yet the Red Sox-Yankee game scheduled for the evening of September 10th at Yankee Stadium was rained out.

And a clear day to those on the ground doesn't mean unlimited visibility.... what would have happened if the weather was cieling unlimited visibility 10 miles in haze? As a longtime pilot, I can assure you all that it can be very difficult to find even major landmarks on a hazy day. Then they would have had a very difficult time finding their targets.

I have often wondered whether they had pre-programmed GPS units to guide them to the vicinity of their targets. I seriously doubt that the plan relied on visual cues alone. Especially the flights that targeted DC.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:03 am

I live and work in the Nashua, NH area. Many of the westbound departures out of Logan come up over here, perhaps (I guess) to stay out of the way of incoming traffic from the west, which comes through the north-central Massachusetts area (i.e. Quabbin Reservoir, Fitchburg, Gardner, Concord, etc.).

Chris in NH
 
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:26 am

One thing I've wondered about 9/11 is, what if the attacks had occurred 5-10 years earlier when bigger widebodies were flying? The full load of fuel on the 762's is what did the towers in. Just imagine if it was a DC-10/L-1011/classic 747. In comparison, those aircraft carry much more fuel and the towers would have likely collapsed sooner, leaving less survivors.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 19):
[stepping off the soap box now]

Thank you for doing so, and I note the disclaimer. But with all do respect, this type of "we share the blame" thinking is what allows unjustifiable senseless acts to occur. The masterminds behind 9/11 are not poor or uneducated, but evil and sadistic. Once brainwashed into the extremist way of thinking, there is no hope to turn them back. Political correctness out the window, they need to be euthanized.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 24):
The second plane came very close to missing the WTC. The towers were relatively small - only 208 feet wide.

I think the pilot of the second plane deliberately did a downward left bank at the last possible moment to hit closer to the middle of the building, to kill more civilians obviously. As a result, the south tower did not take nearly as long to collapse.
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RobertS975
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RE: What If 9/11 Hadn't Been A Clear Day?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 47):
I live and work in the Nashua, NH area. Many of the westbound departures out of Logan come up over here, perhaps (I guess) to stay out of the way of incoming traffic from the west, which comes through the north-central Massachusetts area (i.e. Quabbin Reservoir, Fitchburg, Gardner, Concord, etc.).

Your observations are perfectly correct... the SID (standard instrument departure) on flights out of Logan for western destinations (even BUF, CLE and DTW) call for direct MHT (Manchester) VOR before turning to a more due westerly course.

Arrivals from the west start their descent at Albany, direct Gardiner VOR, direct overhead Hanscom Field before coming down through the top of the TCA terminal B airspace.