aircanada014
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Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 1:59 pm

Hi all

Since AC is the first airline in North America to operate the B777-300ER and B777-200LR will we see other airlines based in N.A fly any of those two types? We all know DL is the first US carrier to fly B777-200LR and who knows maybe they may go for B777-300ER? Amazingly AC and DL will have same products offering to their passengers especially the Business Class seats. Who's next to fly the new B777s?
 
Flighty
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:04 pm

I can't see any Americans flying them, but perhaps a Mexican carrier.
 
amirs
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:15 pm

Well, any airline that wants to focus on more nonstop asia, india and australia routes will need it.

I can see CO getting them.
ewr - sin
ewr - hkg (without restrictions)
ewr - bkk
iah - syd
iah - hkg
iah - bom/del

UA -
ORD - SIN (hub to hub)
ORD - SYD

NW - more nonstop into asia from JFK

AA -
MIA - HKG
MIA - SYD
 
PEET7G
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:45 pm

Well if the industry cycles remain, the 777 might see a new glorious era as the 787 and A350 EIS comes closer... just like the A330... and some 77L will be passed on in that uphill cycle. CO is my best guess, It would fit their fleet and there are routes that could use restriction free operation, not to mention opening up new routes too... UA, NW, AA are far less of an option I think, however a few years ago I would never have bet a penny on DL ordering the 77L either... so who knows? After all the 77L is the best there is in it's class, and the only thing that could push it from the throne is still ages away from taking of from the drawing-board  fight 
Peet7G
 
cricket
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:55 pm

Given that CO also use GE90's on their 777-200ER fleet it makes even more sense - with the planned EWR-BOM service, there is no way they can make the route non-stop on year-long basis without payload restrictions. The quantum of might be an issue - does it make sense to operate a small sub-fleet of 5 frames?
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
Joost
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:05 pm

I remember that AC have said that already on shorter lang-haul routes, like YYZ-Europe, a fully-loaded 77L outperforms a 772ER on fuel-burn. Considering that, and the rising fuel costs, the 77L might well become a very interesting and mostly flexible aircraft, to be used on transatlantic as well as transpacific hops.
 
Boeing74741R
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
I can see CO getting them.
ewr - sin

That would put them in direct competition with SQ on that route.
 
EI321
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:19 pm

I dont think any US airline will order 77W but I think AA might look at the 77L.
 
XPjets
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:26 pm

Delta has 8 77Ls on order. They'll presumably use those frames to beef up JFK - BOM/DEL service, along with possibly opening up more routes to India straight from ATL.
GO SIOUX!
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:49 pm

I would say it is quite possible that Delta may consider the 777-300ER if Delta continues to grow internationally. ATL-NRT and ATL-TLV may indeed be able to support a 777-300ER.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
amirs
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
ATL-TLV may indeed be able to support a 777-300ER.

I also see JFK - TLV with a 773er in a few years.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting XPJets (Reply 8):
Delta has 8 77Ls on order. They'll presumably use those frames to beef up JFK - BOM/DEL service, along with possibly opening up more routes to India straight from ATL.

Eight for now.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:52 am

CO has 3 non-stops to Asia from EWR and IAD so it would be a good fit for them.

UA - maybe but not for another few years....

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
AA -
MIA - HKG
MIA - SYD

Don't forget departures to Asia from JFK.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
NW - more nonstop into asia from JFK

If they can get enough dough to buy them......well maybe.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:04 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 12):
IAD so it would be a good fit for them.

IAD?

I think you mean IAH...
Witch has 1 n/s to Asia.

CO07 IAH-NRT
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:04 am

CO seems to be doing okay to Asia from EWR in terms of payload thanks to the polar routings, so they may not feel they need the 77L, but I think it would be a possible option for them if they decide to add to their fleet.

UA prefers 747s when payload/range becomes an issue, so I think the 77L is unlikely and the 77W is right out. However, no matter what UA will have to migrate from P&W to either GE or RR power for their next generation widebody, and they do have experience with GE (and I do not believe UA232 is going to prejudice them against GE), so if they choose GE, they might consider the 77L.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
I can see CO getting them.

CO will not be adding the 772LR to its fleet.....CO's future is all about the 787 family of airplanes. CO recently accepted delivery of Ships 019 and 020, which will be the last 777s to be added the CO fleet unless CO elects to pick up used GE90 powered 772s in the future.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
UA -

UA's 777 fleet is PW powered, 772LRs are GE powered; thus I dont see UA going for the type.....a UA order for the 748I is much more likely in my opinion.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
NW - more nonstop into asia from JFK

NW currently has NO nonstops from JFK to Asia. NW is an early 787 customer, look for NW to use the 787 to open new routes from its Pacific gateways to Asia; NW currently does not operate any version of the 777, so a 772LR order from NW would be a big surprise, again, a small order from NW for the 748I is a stronger possibility in my opinion.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
AA -

A very remote chance, again, the engine issue.....AA's large 777 fleet is RR powered and the 772LR is GE powered. And, if AA were to order the 772LR, I really dont think that MIA-SYD or MIA-HKG would be among the routes flown.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 3):
Well if the industry cycles remain, the 777 might see a new glorious era as the 787 and A350 EIS comes closer... just like the A330... and some 77L will be passed on in that uphill cycle. CO is my best guess, It would fit their fleet and there are routes that could use restriction free operation, not to mention opening up new routes too... UA, NW, AA are far less of an option I think, however a few years ago I would never have bet a penny on DL ordering the 77L either... so who knows? After all the 77L is the best there is in it's class, and the only thing that could push it from the throne is still ages away from taking of from the drawing-board



Quoting Cricket (Reply 4):
Given that CO also use GE90's on their 777-200ER fleet it makes even more sense - with the planned EWR-BOM service, there is no way they can make the route non-stop on year-long basis without payload restrictions. The quantum of might be an issue - does it make sense to operate a small sub-fleet of 5 frames?

As mentioned, CO has looked at the 772LR (the demonstrator airplane even visited with CO at EWR for a few days during its world tour) and CO did not order......CO operates some rather long routes with the 772ER (such as EWR-PEK, EWR-HKG, EWR-DEL) and while the extra performance of the LR would add some flexibility to these operations, CO does OK with the 772ERs on these routes. Also consider that (1) the LR is a very expensive airplane, and (2) CO's 772ERs fly a very intensive schedule: EWR-HKG one day, EWR-LGW the next, so scheduling would also become an issue (see the Peter Max threads.)

As mentioned, CO's longhaul future is focused on the 787.


-----------------

Delta converted its future 772 orders from the ER to LR variant for a few reasons......(1) Boeing agreed to upgrade DL's airplanes at zero cost per reports as part of a bigger deal between Boeing and DL resulting from negotiations during DL's reorganization, (2) it was important that DL acquire GE (and not RR) powered airplanes due to financial reasons again due to DL's reorganization, and (3) many believe that DL will add the 773ER to its fleet and the 773ER has lots and lots in common (including engines) with the 772LR. These issues, of course, influenced DL's decision to go with the 772LR.....which would not apply to other carriers.
 
777STL
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
MIA - SYD

There are several reasons while you will never see this happen, even if the 77L is actually capable of doing it.

Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
MIA - HKG

ORD would be the first to get a -HKG route and *if* AA got the 77L, a big "if" there, DFW would see -HKG service before MIA does. LAX could be thrown into the mix there as well, JFK as well. I see all those hubs/focus cities potentially getting a -HKG flight before MIA does.

Quoting AirCanada014 (Thread starter):
B777-200LR will we see other airlines based in N.A fly any of those two types

Aren't the 77L and the 77F essentially the same thing as far as performance and range goes? In that case, FedEx has 8 77Fs on the way.
PHX based
 
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Stitch
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 16):
Aren't the 77L and the 77F essentially the same thing as far as performance and range goes? In that case, FedEx has 8 77Fs on the way.

The 777F trades range for payload. She carries more then the 777-200LR does (since she has cargo on the passenger deck), but gives up thousands of miles of range to do so.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Also consider that the LR is a very expensive airplane..,

Oddly enough, average sale price for the 777-200LR is within a few million for that of the 777-200ER.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
UA's 777 fleet is PW powered, 772LRs are GE powered; thus I dont see UA going for the type.....a UA order for the 748I is much more likely in my opinion.

The 747-8i is also only available with GE engines. If United orders the 747-8i or 777-300ER, then they will probably choose GE engines if they order the 787.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
papatango
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 11):

Would you like to elaborate?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
I dont think any US airline will order 77W

...you mean other than the one who's already stocking parts for it, right?

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
but I think AA might look at the 77L

And throw another public sh!t-fit, like they did when they last looked at it?  Wink

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Quoting Amirs (Reply 2):
NW - more nonstop into asia from JFK

NW currently has NO nonstops from JFK to Asia.

...true, though they've already announced JFK-NRT will return with their 787s.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 18):
The 747-8i is also only available with GE engines. If United orders the 747-8i or 777-300ER, then they will probably choose GE engines if they order the 787.

But we are talking about different generations of GE engines......

Quoting Papatango (Reply 19):
Would you like to elaborate?

Many expect DL to add additional 772LRs to their fleet, as well as for DL to order a modest number of 773ERs for their highest volume long haul routes. For example, this comment concerning US carriers ordering the 773ER:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
...you mean other than the one who's already stocking parts for it, right?



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
...true, though they've already announced JFK-NRT will return with their 787s.

As far as NW returning to the JFK-NRT route, lets see if it really happens. I expect DL to launch JFK-NRT in the near term future: with AA, CO and DL, plus the Japanese carriers all flying NYC-NRT, this will be a difficult market for NW to re-enter and I expect that we will hear that ""there are better opportunities elsewhere."" Time will tell.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting Papatango (Reply 19):
Would you like to elaborate?

All of Delta's options (both standard and rolling) for 777 aircraft have been converted to -LR models. It's noted in their K/Q reports. Additionally, many on here (including myself) have predicted that there will be more coming. Also, anyone with a sense of adventure can locate information that suggests this as well.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 20):
...true, though they've already announced JFK-NRT will return with their 787s.

True, but could change given DLs intentions to start the route, which could happen before NW returns. Question is would NW launch the same route if DL gets to the market first.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:45 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 7):
I dont think any US airline will order 77W but I think AA might look at the 77L.

With nearly 500 777-200ER's, I really don't know that they feel the need... or have that many routes needing its performance, plus, with the 15 hours clause in their pilot contract, they have bigger limiting factors than the plane in ULH flying. AA likes the flexibility of more aircraft that are smaller, anyhow. They aren't that squeezed into any slot controlled airports for capacity.

CO... maybe, but not likely... the GE90-94b powered 777-200ERs give them good enough performance on even their longest routes that they wouldn't need to take on a subfleet of LR's, really. CO doesn't want the liability of larger aircraft, even if a few of their routes could justify 77Ws.

UA is going to have to decide between 77W and 748 for replacing the 744s at some point - probably about 5 years out. At that point 77Ws will likely be competitively priced, which won't hurt. then again 748 could just as easily happen. I think A380 is too big and UA going airbus for long haul is a long shot. They have no need for 77L, however... heck, their 772ER's aren't even at max MTOW for the 772ER.

NW could very well go 77W to replace their 744s. A380 is WAY too big, 748 is also a bit on the big side, but still possible for NW, 77W might be a bit small, but they don't fill those 744s on all of their routes to begin with, and for many it is too much plane... so that's worth watching too. I suppose I couldn't rule out A350-1000, however that is SO far into the future, I just don't know.

DL might grow into 77W... now with 77Ls in the fleet and once they have LHR slots, I think they'll have a hand full of routes that will support the size of 77L. I feel like Boeing is going to love DL for some time yet, with 100+ 787 orders coming their way to replace that 767 fleet and a need for easily 20 more 777s than are currently on order to build up their long haul network, DL has some business to give to Boeing (and after Boeing helped save them from US and Parker, you best believe that is where the business is going).

US - Hell will freeze before they buy a 77L or 77W.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
da man
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:04 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
500 777-200ER's

Wow, I didn't know AA had over half the 777s ordered on their rolls!  Wink  duck 
War Eagle!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
heck, their 772ER's aren't even at max MTOW for the 772ER.

...and you think they're happy about that? Remember, UA was one of the customers expecting the PW4098-powered 772ER, and the only one to keep its orders once it became obvious that PW had F'ed up yet again.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
EddieDude
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RE: Will We Ever See Another Carrier Flying 77L?

Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:49 am

One can only dream of AM getting 772LRs in the future. With those birds, MEX-NRT could probably become non-stop.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738