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readytotaxi
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Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:13 pm

In an advert in to days Sunday Times, Boeing produce a map of LHR with a new runway.
Big version: Width: 589 Height: 358 File size: 52kb

Now how did they get that past the planners?
 Big grin
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SOBHI51
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:21 pm

Correct me please if i am wrong but two of those are old unused runways

[Edited 2007-09-16 11:23:09]
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Burkhard
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:27 pm

One goes directly through terminal buildings, definitively a way to save space. The other still exists, but is unused normally AFAIK.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:46 pm

you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
A340313X
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:54 pm

Yes there is. You can see where it used to be, if you look carefully. The buildings have been built over it.
 
amirs
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 3):
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1087474/M/
No sign of it here.

well, you can kinda tell from that pic, that were now terminal 3 is (gates 16 - 22) used to be a runway.
 
chrisMUC
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:10 pm

the one in the east used to be runway 23 and is now taxiway U.
 
hotelmode
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:16 pm

Runway 23 doesnt exist anymore either!
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:31 pm

You'd think a leading aircraft maker would use an up to date advertising agency. Oh well.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:18 pm


Heathrow circa 1955
The photo appears to be "upside down" ie the Southern side of the airport where T4 is now is at the top of the photo.

You can see the runway that runs parallel to T3 in this 1967 photo (before T3 was extended) Even then the runway was being used for additional parking.
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steve Williams



A more recent photo - you can clearly see the old runway going through the axis of the outer pier of T3.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © TriplET



Regards
CROSSWIND
 
amirs
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:17 pm

Heathrow circa 1955 looks like a star of david.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 10):
Heathrow circa 1955 looks like a star of david.

I was thinking the same...  Smile
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readytotaxi
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 9):

Many thanks for that, very interesting.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
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drerx7
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Amirs (Reply 10):
Heathrow circa 1955 looks like a star of david.

I remember reading that was intentional. IIRC
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Amirs (Reply 10):
Heathrow circa 1955 looks like a star of david.

Not meant to be offensive at all...but do yourself a favor...don't look at DEN...

Ok, off colo(u)r humo(u)r moment over.  Wink

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voodoo
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:48 am

Next time you find yourself watching the film Dr. Strangelove, take a look at the office of the SAC/USAF base commander. He has the same 1955 (or slightly later) photo of LHR on his wall.
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
SPREE34
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 15):
Next time you find yourself watching the film Dr. Strangelove

And IF you have never seen this movie, you need to. Funniest military spoof movie ever made, yet makes you wonder how we managed not to blow ourselves (the whole world) up back then.
Much like the movie Airplane, you have to be alert or half or the humor will blow right past you.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
, yet makes you wonder how we managed not to blow ourselves (the whole world) up back then

yes, because it's soooo realistic.  Yeah sure
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eaa3
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:39 am

Wishful thinking I guess. If Heathrow were still like this it would certainly change the economics of sending a 250 person 787 there. It wouldn't be as slot restricted and you wouldn't need to use A380's due to slot restrictions.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 15):

Hey, that's spooky !!!
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
shuggie
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 18):
Wishful thinking I guess. If Heathrow were still like this it would certainly change the economics of sending a 250 person 787 there. It wouldn't be as slot restricted and you wouldn't need to use A380's due to slot restrictions.

But they sure would be short of terminal space!
 
hotelmode
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:28 am

Crossing runways would not help the slot problems at all. Crossing movements cause a great deal of trouble at the airfields that operate them. Thats why ORD is going for sets of multiple parallels facing the same way. 23 was only ever any use in strong crosswinds and it reduced the departure rate on whichever of the 27s was the departure runway massively.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 9):
Heathrow circa 1955

Thank you for that wonderful photo.

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 18):
If Heathrow were still like this it would certainly change the economics of sending a 250 person 787 there.

If Heathrow had been build with four parallel runways it would change the economics too... but that is just wishful thinking.  Wink But as Shuggie noted, the "Star of David" configuration doesn't allow for much terminal space.  Sad But it sure is neat! Makes you realize how rare air traffic was back in circa 1955.

Its going to be interesting to see how London meets its long term growth needs. For you either grow or you rot... Man I wish for that 3rd runway at LHR. It would be perfect to open it for the olympics!  bigthumbsup  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the T2 rebuild is scheduled to be done by then.  cloudnine  It would be amazing to have LHR able to meet the growth between now and then! (Notice I didn't say demand... that would take five or six runways at LHR!)

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
eaa3
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:43 am

At SFO they usually use runway 1L and 1R for departures while runways 28R and 28L are being used for arrivals. There they can have 2 simultaneous departures and 2 simultaneous arrivals while at Heathrow I believe they often use one for arrivals and the other for departures.
 
SFOHORIZON
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:15 am

Is there any update on a 3rd Runway. There's always rumors, tentative plans, studies, etc... But look at those maps, where the heck would you put that thing?
 
jetjeanes
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:29 am

The great LHR only has 2 main runways>>>?????
i can see for 80 miles
 
Viscount724
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 25):
The great LHR only has 2 main runways>>>?????

And LGW is the world's busiest 1-runway airport. The parallel taxiway is designed for use as a backup runway when the main runway is closed for maintenance etc.

Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 7):
Runway 23 doesnt exist anymore either!

It still exists but it's now a taxiway. Here's a NW 707 (interchange service with Pan Am) landing on runway 05-23 in 1971:


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Photo © Mick West

 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 26):
And LGW is the world's busiest 1-runway airport.



Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 25):
The great LHR only has 2 main runways>>>?????

Yes, isn't England a bit ridiculous in this respect?

And despite the lack of runway capacity and the slots and all, LHR ground staff and security and immigration can't seem to keep up with it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Glom
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 24):
Is there any update on a 3rd Runway. There's always rumors, tentative plans, studies, etc... But look at those maps, where the heck would you put that thing?

It's supposed to go on top of Sipson to the North. Don't count on it any time soon. Greeniness is the new religion in the Westminster Village. John Redwood is probably the only MP who would support it.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting SFOHORIZON (Reply 24):
Is there any update on a 3rd Runway. There's always rumors, tentative plans, studies, etc... But look at those maps, where the heck would you put that thing?

The 3rd LHR runway would be located north of and parallel to the western portion of the existing runways with similar spacing between. Have a look at the last photo in Reply #9. It would be just south of the M25 (the east-west motorway along the top of the photo).
 
Joost
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
Yes, isn't England a bit ridiculous in this respect?

Local residents, environmental groups, etc, etc are very powerful in England. The fact that LHR is located very close to densely populated areas doesn't make it easier.

The first London airport that gets a new runway will be STN, but there's also a strong resistance against it might easily be delayed for many years.

It's not very different from other countries. FRA is trying to add a runway since the 1960s, and is blocked by all kind of protest group, environmentalists, etc. The new Brandenburg Airport in Berlin is already delayed for a long time. DUS is terribly restricted.

In the Netherlands, Schiphol had been able to expand quite well, with the new runway added in 2003. All regional airports have great difficulties to expand. And Schiphol is a case in itself and a source of political unrest.

I'd say that England isn't so much different from some other European countries, but is among the more regulated / hindered regarding construction of infrastructure, though.
 
BTCCMan
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:04 am

Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 7):
Runway 23 doesnt exist anymore either!

Actually, 23L does still exist, it is just not used any more. It was still in occasional use during high crosswinds in the mid-80s...
Yea though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am at 80,000 feet and climbing!
 
planesavvy
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:27 am

The old runway 23 is definately closed for good. There are major taxiway changes being built around that area in preparation for Heathrow East terminal. Parts of the old runway are either covered over or dug up.
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 25):
The great LHR only has 2 main runways>>>?????

2 main runways? 2 runways. Full stop.

BAA should be buying every property that goes up for sale in the area bounded by the M4, M25, A312, and Bath Road -- especially west of the A408.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
The 3rd LHR runway would be located north of and parallel to the western portion of the existing runways with similar spacing between. Have a look at the last photo in Reply #9. It would be just south of the M25 (the east-west motorway along the top of the photo).

Oops! I meant the M4, not the M25. Too late to edit.  boggled 
 
hangarrat
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Voodoo (Reply 15):
Dr. Strangelove...



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 16):
Funniest military spoof movie ever made, yet makes you wonder how we managed not to blow ourselves (the whole world) up back then.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
yes, because it's soooo realistic.

Actually, this article is a bit of an eyeopener...

Quote:
According to a new book called Doomsday Men and several papers on the subject by U.S. analysts, it may not have been merely a fantasy. According to these accounts, the Soviets built and activated a variation of a doomsday machine in the mid-'80s. And there is no evidence Putin's Russia has deactivated the system.

http://www.slate.com/id/2173108/pagenum/all/
Spell check is a false dog
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 30):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
Yes, isn't England a bit ridiculous in this respect?

Local residents, environmental groups, etc, etc are very powerful in England. The fact that LHR is located very close to densely populated areas doesn't make it easier.

The first London airport that gets a new runway will be STN, but there's also a strong resistance against it might easily be delayed for many years.

It's not very different from other countries. FRA is trying to add a runway since the 1960s, and is blocked by all kind of protest group, environmentalists, etc. The new Brandenburg Airport in Berlin is already delayed for a long time. DUS is terribly restricted.

In the Netherlands, Schiphol had been able to expand quite well, with the new runway added in 2003. All regional airports have great difficulties to expand. And Schiphol is a case in itself and a source of political unrest.

I'd say that England isn't so much different from some other European countries, but is among the more regulated / hindered regarding construction of infrastructure, though.

This is where Europe differs from the US to some degree. In order to make room for the ORD expansion an nearly an entire town (Elk Grove Village, I believe?) is being bulldozed to make room. Then again, San Diego is more or less locked an equally ridiculous situation to LHR.

Japan, on the other hand, had such an ugly time in getting the land to build NRT that every major airport since seems to have been built on land reclamation in some harbor (KIX, NGO)

It seems to me that the economic benefit of adding 2 runways to LHR would be SO great as to be able to handsomely compensate the home owners needing to be relocated and would be in the interest of london and the UK as a whole... but that's just me.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
ncelhr
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:15 am

That picture in today's Sunday Times is ridiculous.
Not only does it use a 1950 runway layout, but it oversizes LHR's size, and looks at noise West of the airport, which doesn't really mean anything since most of the populated areas are to the East of the airport (Hounslow, etc.)

If I was at Boeing, I'd fire the people responsible for this embarrassing attempt...
 
SFOHORIZON
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 36):
This is where Europe differs from the US to some degree. In order to make room for the ORD expansion an nearly an entire town (Elk Grove Village, I believe?) is being bulldozed to make room. Then again, San Diego is more or less locked an equally ridiculous situation to LHR.

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. But I think this is an example that shows how alike Elk Grove and Dupage County is to Europe, or to any community neighboring a major airport. ORD is on its way to expand, but the journey to get to this point has been decades in the making, fraught with peril, delays, lawsuits and much more. Expanding ORD has not been a walk in the park, rather it's been a democratic/civil/planning/neighborhood nightmare. But the light is there at the end of the tunnel, can't say the same for LHR's 3rd runway.
 
747fan
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 33):
Oops! I meant the M4, not the M25. Too late to edit.

M25 is the road that runs north to south in the upper left-hand corner of the recent photo in reply 9. Its the major motorway you see when you take off to the west, about 30 seconds after liftoff (depending on the takeoff run). Its about 3/4 mile west of the airport. Even further west (closer to 3 miles west of the airport), the M4 motorway at the top of the aforementioned photo turns to the southwest and you overfly it as you're banking right after you pass the reservoir (I can't remember its name). Somebody mentioned the immediate area around Heathrow is densely populated; it is to the east, but the area to the west looks practically semi-rural when you overfly it.
 
longhaulheavy
Posts: 376
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 14):
Not meant to be offensive at all...but do yourself a favor...don't look at DEN...

Wow...that is, um, interesting.
 
Boeing4ever
Posts: 4479
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Longhaulheavy (Reply 39):
Wow...that is, um, interesting.

How so? One once looked like a Star of David. The other would have made LHR-DEN flights, errr, interesting in some tripped out philosophical perspective.  Smile

Not that the latter was meant to look like that. Swastika-like I mean.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George Canciani



Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 21):
Crossing runways would not help the slot problems at all. Crossing movements cause a great deal of trouble at the airfields that operate them. Thats why ORD is going for sets of multiple parallels facing the same way. 23 was only ever any use in strong crosswinds and it reduced the departure rate on whichever of the 27s was the departure runway massively.

Yeah, ORD is gonna be a long job. It's also another sad lesson into why building developers should not be allowed to build so close to airports. Planes make noise folks. Fact of life.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 40):
It's also another sad lesson into why building developers should not be allowed to build so close to airports.

Some people want to be near an airport. Why should they not be allowed to build if they own the land?

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 40):
Planes make noise folks.

Less and less each year. Also, it's not difficult to insulate buildings against noise; it just costs money.
 
trent900
Posts: 499
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:06 am

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Joost (Reply 30):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
Yes, isn't England a bit ridiculous in this respect?

Local residents, environmental groups, etc, etc are very powerful in England. The fact that LHR is located very close to densely populated areas doesn't make it easier.

The first London airport that gets a new runway will be STN, but there's also a strong resistance against it might easily be delayed for many years.

It's not very different from other countries. FRA is trying to add a runway since the 1960s, and is blocked by all kind of protest group, environmentalists, etc. The new Brandenburg Airport in Berlin is already delayed for a long time. DUS is terribly restricted.

In the Netherlands, Schiphol had been able to expand quite well, with the new runway added in 2003. All regional airports have great difficulties to expand. And Schiphol is a case in itself and a source of political unrest.

I'd say that England isn't so much different from some other European countries, but is among the more regulated / hindered regarding construction of infrastructure, though.

Not to forget there is a heck of a lot more un-populated land out in the US. Our countryside here in the UK is under so much pressure from housing development at the moment its not really funny. This Green and Pleasant Land soon will be no more.

IMHO the next new runway in the London region will be built at STN. There is much less resident opposition (for obvious reasons) and more farm land for the development. Its just the envoronmental groups that are slowing progress at the moment.

D.
 
hotelmode
Posts: 179
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:31 am

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:09 pm

Quoting BTCCMan (Reply 31):
Actually, 23L does still exist, it is just not used any more. It was still in occasional use during high crosswinds in the mid-80s...

Theres very little of it left, it has been unuseable for at least 6 years due to extra t4 stands and the touchdown end got dug up around 9 months ago.
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:06 pm

Quoting BTCCMan (Reply 31):
Actually, 23L does still exist, it is just not used any more. It was still in occasional use during high crosswinds in the mid-80s...

Can we get past this myth? Runway 23 has had its declaration rescinded. Check out theAIP. And you can see on Google Earth, the runway numbers have been scored off. It is not a runway in any technical or practical sense.
 
Ellehammer
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:44 pm

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:41 pm

I wonder how much space could be saved by moving all buildings underground? Getting off the plane and being whisked directly underground to a network of concourses and passageways. They could still have skylights if they wanted, maybe even some specially reinforced ones, so people could look up and see the airplanes taxi overhead..  Smile
 
boswashsprstar
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:21 pm

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 35):

This is where Europe differs from the US to some degree. In order to make room for the ORD expansion an nearly an entire town (Elk Grove Village, I believe?) is being bulldozed to make room. Then again, San Diego is more or less locked an equally ridiculous situation to LHR.

Well . . . that may just be where Chicago differs from the rest of the western world to some degree. Mayor . . .*ahem* dictator *ahem* . . . Daley and the Chicago political machine can make just about anything happen if the right people agree . . . or are paid the right amounts to agree . . . or really who knows how Chicago works. But don't forget that lakeside airport which disappeared under cover of darkness one night.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:35 am

Just another thought, the "New" proposed runway north of LHR, you land there and then have to taxi to Terminal 4,
crew would probably have time to do a quick snack service around the cabin before you got to the pier. Big grin
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Eaa3 (Reply 23):
At SFO they usually use runway 1L and 1R for departures while runways 28R and 28L are being used for arrivals. There they can have 2 simultaneous departures and 2 simultaneous arrivals while at Heathrow I believe they often use one for arrivals and the other for departures.

...it actually depends on winds and time of day (as well as season) also.... having spotted at SFO no less than 50 times... Wink I've seen many times where the 1's aren't used at all and the 28's are used exclusively.....

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 46):
But don't forget that lakeside airport which disappeared under cover of darkness one night.

That #^$%^^% will never be forgiven for such a brazen move..ruined a national treasure  mad 

At least he's taken the ORD situation by the "horns" and is doing something about it....I don't think that the late Harold Washington would have been able to accomplish such as this....
"Up the Irons!"
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Boeing Create "New" Runway At LHR!

Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 47):
Just another thought, the "New" proposed runway north of LHR, you land there and then have to taxi to Terminal 4,
crew would probably have time to do a quick snack service around the cabin before you got to the pier.

I would hope they'd plan the approaches better than that.

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos