brucek
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Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:36 am

I believe that NZ has one daily flight from LAX to LHR. My question on this right to fly to LHR from the US is:

1. Could NZ fly multiple flights daily from LAX to LHR, if the wanted?
2. If NZ had an aircraft that could do AKL-JFK, and wanted to substitute the LAX-LHR flight for JFK-LHR, could they do that? In other words, is the right specific to LAX?
3. Or- is the right just 1 flight daily, and only from LAX?

This question has nothing to do with any business reasons that may, or may not, exist to change the 1X LAX-LHR daily; but more to do with the rights between the US and LHR.

Thanks, Bruce.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:40 am

ANZ has flown between LAX and LHR for quite some time now...they did fly to LGW for the longest time, though.
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:46 am

My understanding is that the NZ / UK agreement stipulates that only one daily flight for each country can be via the US with full fifth freedom rights.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Brucek (Thread starter):
. Could NZ fly multiple flights daily from LAX to LHR, if the wanted?

the current New Zealand - UK bilateral limits NZ to 7 return frequencies per week between the USA and LHR/LGW , however , I believe that there is a clause which lifts that restriction once open skies come into play on USA-UK , so , in theory , subject to getting slots , NZ could operate whatever routes/frequencies it wants between USA and UK from Apr 08
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
so , in theory , subject to getting slots , NZ could operate whatever routes/frequencies it wants between USA and UK from Apr 08

But only if all the flights originate/terminate in New Zealand which is a requirement for all 5th freedom rights. They certainly don't have 7th freedom rights to operate stand-alone flights between the US and the UK.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
But only if all the flights originate/terminate in New Zealand which is a requirement for all 5th freedom rights. They certainly don't have 7th freedom rights to operate stand-alone flights between the US and the UK.

true , I didn't think to spell that out but you are of course correct , bearing in mind that NZ currently operate 2-3 flights daily terminating in the US ( AKL-LAX daily in addition to the AKL-LAX-LHR flight , AKL-SFO daily , and a variety of AKL-NAN-LAX, AKL-RAR-LAX , AKL-TBU-APW-LAX and AKL-HNL ) they could , if they chose , if they had the equipment , if they could get the slots , and if they thought they could actually make money doing it by eventually extending all those flights to LHR they could significantly increase their 5th freedom presence in the USA-LHR market
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Brucek (Thread starter):
I believe that NZ has one daily flight from LAX to LHR. My question on this right to fly to LHR from the US is:

1. Could NZ fly multiple flights daily from LAX to LHR, if the wanted?
2. If NZ had an aircraft that could do AKL-JFK, and wanted to substitute the LAX-LHR flight for JFK-LHR, could they do that? In other words, is the right specific to LAX?
3. Or- is the right just 1 flight daily, and only from LAX?

1) Not currently, NZ would have to apply for new rights to do this, however open-skies between USA and UK are coming in soon.
2) My understanding is that yes they could do that but are unlikely to do that. On a side note, if NZ did have an aircraft that could fly to JFK direct from AKL then NZ would be there quicker than you could say New York Bagel! Exercisings 787 options should allow NZ to do this around 2010.
3) 1 daily flight from USA-LHR/LGW. They could possibly fly to say MAN from another US city... ie AKL-SFO-MAN although a lot of speculation is that NZ will extend its new AKL-YVR service to MAN.
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DavidByrne
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
On a side note, if NZ did have an aircraft that could fly to JFK direct from AKL then NZ would be there quicker than you could say New York Bagel! Exercisings 787 options should allow NZ to do this around 2010.

Interested to hear this - is this a view from inside the airline, or less-informed speculation? I've long thought that JFK was a logical move for NZ, but my view has more recently been tempered by two other factors - (a) the diminishing economics of longer- and longer-range flights because of the need to expend so much fuel just carting fuel about - I've heard it suggested that it's actually more exonomic to include a fuel stop on a flight that long, and (b) the serious difficulties that TN has had getting support for its SYD/AKL-PPT-JFK route, coupled with the often-expressed view that QF's SYD-LAX-JFK flight survives on cargo, rather than passengers. And cargo on an ULH flight of that length, which would be close to or even right at payload restrictions anyway, must be problematic without a fuelling stop.

If an AKL-JFK-Europe flight could be made to work, I'd be delighted, as it would give NZ a competitive advantage over other carriers in that there would be seamless connectivity possible from BNE, SYD, MEL and ADL (and OOL?), one-stop to JFK with no messy domestic-international transfers, and no immigration/customs to deal with at intermediate points. But I'm yet to be reassured as to either the demand or the economics.

Quoting Brucek (Thread starter):
I believe that NZ has one daily flight from LAX to LHR. My question on this right to fly to LHR from the US is:

1. Could NZ fly multiple flights daily from LAX to LHR, if the wanted?
2. If NZ had an aircraft that could do AKL-JFK, and wanted to substitute the LAX-LHR flight for JFK-LHR, could they do that? In other words, is the right specific to LAX?
3. Or- is the right just 1 flight daily, and only from LAX?

Mcilree is the authority on this - perhaps he would comment? My understanding is that the limitation on LHR services relates to California-originating services only, and that aside from that, NZ airlines have the ability to fly onward from any other port in the USA to Europe. It was reported, prior to NZ launching its AKL-HKG-LHR service that the airline actually would have preferred a routing AKL-SFO-LHR, but that ultimately it could not be done for this reason. However, as has often been discussed on this Board, a routing AKL-SFO-MAN or AKL-LAX-MAN would be perfectly OK (as was AKL-LAX-FRA, which NZ ran for some years but no longer does).
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 7):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
On a side note, if NZ did have an aircraft that could fly to JFK direct from AKL then NZ would be there quicker than you could say New York Bagel! Exercisings 787 options should allow NZ to do this around 2010.

Interested to hear this - is this a view from inside the airline, or less-informed speculation?

NZ have said for ages now that they are interested in JFK once their B787s enters service, its also been in the papers previously.

NZ can currently fly ONE daily return flight from the USA-LHR. If NZ flew to JFK right now and found a AKL-JFK-LHR flight would proivide better profits, then I'm pretty sure NZ would stop their LAX-LHR and start a JFK-LHR ASAP
 
DavidByrne
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
NZ can currently fly ONE daily return flight from the USA-LHR. If NZ flew to JFK right now and found a AKL-JFK-LHR flight would proivide better profits, then I'm pretty sure NZ would stop their LAX-LHR and start a JFK-LHR ASAP

The bit where my understanding differs from yours is whether NZ is limited to one daily flight from the USA to LHR, or one daily flight from California to LHR, without restrictions on other states. Koruman (Thread #1, reply #175) has obviously acquired the same understanding as me from somewhere, but I'm afraid I can't find the original source. That's where Mcilree may be able to help . . . ?
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ZKSUJ
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 9):
The bit where my understanding differs from yours is whether NZ is limited to one daily flight from the USA to LHR, or one daily flight from California to LHR,

I have always thought it was California to London
 
DavidByrne
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:18 am

. . . and I've also been aware that in recent public announcements, NZ seems to have focused more on CHI as the "next big thing" for the airline in the USA, perhaps because of the presence of a very large UA hub there.

I'm also intrigued as to why QF reportedly has trouble with passenger loads on its JFK services, and TN likewise. I'd have thought it was a "natural" route, with lots of O&D from the New York area to Aus/NZ, irrespective of connecting traffic.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:09 am

quote=ZKSUJ,reply=10]have always thought it was California to London
[/quote]


wading in here, for additional clarity re London, I believe it is LHR and LGW.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:49 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 12):
wading in here, for additional clarity re London, I believe it is LHR and LGW

O ok, so STN and Luton not included, interesting
 
TG992
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 7):
It was reported, prior to NZ launching its AKL-HKG-LHR service that the airline actually would have preferred a routing AKL-SFO-LHR, but that ultimately it could not be done for this reason. However, as has often been discussed on this Board, a routing AKL-SFO-MAN or AKL-LAX-MAN would be perfectly OK (as was AKL-LAX-FRA, which NZ ran for some years but no longer does).

NZ have been wanting to operate HKG-LHR for years now and it was always the preferred choice - one major reason being to avoid the 'eggs in one basket' syndrome, another being the huge passenger hatred of the nightmare that transitting the US has become. SFO-LHR was looked at - projected loads were very good, projected yields another story altogether.

FRA was, I understand, a good performer in the early days, and right up to termination of services the loads were great, but the yields were garbage by the end. It was apparently common for flights to depart without a single full-fare economy passenger. Because of Lufthansa's strong support of Star Alliance connections (they are also very good at cooperating with scheduling) it's unlikely NZ will return to Frankfurt. There are apparently 23 destinations constantly monitored for potential services and FRA is way down the bottom of that list.
-
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 7):
Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 6):
On a side note, if NZ did have an aircraft that could fly to JFK direct from AKL then NZ would be there quicker than you could say New York Bagel! Exercisings 787 options should allow NZ to do this around 2010.

Interested to hear this - is this a view from inside the airline, or less-informed speculation? I've long thought that JFK was a logical move for NZ, but my view has more recently been tempered by two other factors - (a) the diminishing economics of longer- and longer-range flights because of the need to expend so much fuel just carting fuel about - I've heard it suggested that it's actually more exonomic to include a fuel stop on a flight that long, and (b) the serious difficulties that TN has had getting support for its SYD/AKL-PPT-JFK route, coupled with the often-expressed view that QF's SYD-LAX-JFK flight survives on cargo, rather than passengers. And cargo on an ULH flight of that length, which would be close to or even right at payload restrictions anyway, must be problematic without a fuelling stop.

Not at the moment you are correct that current aircraft are uneconomic. The 787 however changes all that with much better economics, much more pleasant experience for the pax (15-16hour flight becomes more tolerable). NZ has stated several times that they have NY as one of their top 20 (if not Top 10) future destinations. And yes I did previously work for Air NZ  Wink

Quoting 777ER (Reply 8):
NZ have said for ages now that they are interested in JFK once their B787s enters service, its also been in the papers previously.

 checkmark 
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777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
NZ has stated several times that they have NY as one of their top 20 (if not Top 10) future destinations.

JFK is also ahead of ORD, which is the only other USA destination that NZ is looking at, from what NZ have told the public
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:58 pm

I'd be surprised if NZ could make AKL-JFK work. I'm sure they'll try, but much like TG they may decide to back out once the numbers start coming in. The route is made especially difficult by the fact that they don't have any sources of feeder traffic from JFK. However, they may be able to get a leg up on QF for NY-AUS markets with this route, so much depends on how big those markets are.

Also -- the entire discussion of LHR-LAX (or JFK-LHR) may become a moot point very soon. I have read that NZ plans to discontinue AKL-LAX-LHR in favor of AKL-YVR-LHR so as to avoid American immigration hassles. I'm having trouble finding the article just at the moment, though (I believe it was a Salon Ask the Pilot article, though at the time I wasn't able to find it listed anywhere else).
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 17):
I'd be surprised if NZ could make AKL-JFK work. I'm sure they'll try, but much like TG they may decide to back out once the numbers start coming in. The route is made especially difficult by the fact that they don't have any sources of feeder traffic from JFK. However, they may be able to get a leg up on QF for NY-AUS markets with this route, so much depends on how big those markets are.
They are looking at using 787 (with about 250pax) not too hard to sell that... especially since the market to New Zealand from the US is in the region of 80+% from CA and NY for USA pax. As you pointed out the market on to Australia then beckons for those pax...and not having to transit thru LAX is a great advantage!
Also -- the entire discussion of LHR-LAX (or JFK-LHR) may become a moot point very soon. I have read that NZ plans to discontinue AKL-LAX-LHR in favor of AKL-YVR-LHR so as to avoid American immigration hassles. I'm having trouble finding the article just at the moment, though (I believe it was a Salon Ask the Pilot article, though at the time I wasn't able to find it listed anywhere else).

NZ has ordered 773ER to replace its 744 from about 2010. When this happens (and with the growth NZL-UK/Europe) NZ will have to operate at least 3 daily services if not 4! Current: AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-LAX-LHR. In future it will likely be AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-PVG-FRA/MAN, AKL-LAX-LHR, AKL-YVR-MAN with the HKG and LAX services being operated with 773ER and the PVG and YVR services using 772ER (the 772ER being freed up due to the entry of the 787s).
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DavidByrne
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting TG992 (Reply 14):
NZ have been wanting to operate HKG-LHR for years now and it was always the preferred choice - one major reason being to avoid the 'eggs in one basket' syndrome, another being the huge passenger hatred of the nightmare that transiting the US has become. SFO-LHR was looked at - projected loads were very good, projected yields another story altogether.

I'm dredging the recesses of my memory now, but my recollection, to be more accurate, was at the time it was stated that HKG-LHR was seen as a much better long-term option, but not one that would necessarily pay off short term. On the other hand, SFO-LHR was perceived as giving a much better return in the short term, but did not have such good longer-term prospects.

I'm figuring that one of the advantages of HKG is that it does offer the possibility of multiple European destinations as a scissor-hub from Australian cities as well - this has been speculated about on A-Net as a future NZ strategy many times. What I'm less clear about (anyone out there know?) is whether NZ already has generous fifth-freedom rights from HKG in addition to LHR, or whether further negotiation would be required.

Many, many years ago, when AR was seeking additional frequencies into AKL, I recall that the quid pro quo was that NZ would be given onward rights to Europe from BUE. Without speculating as to whether that's useful or not, does anyone know whether it's technically still a possibility?
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ZK-NBT
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 17):
Also -- the entire discussion of LHR-LAX (or JFK-LHR) may become a moot point very soon. I have read that NZ plans to discontinue AKL-LAX-LHR in favor of AKL-YVR-LHR so as to avoid American immigration hassles.

Personally while I agree with what you are saying, I don't think NZ will drop LAX-LHR, it is still a top performer for the airline! I'd say YVR has a good chance though of being the stopover when NZ start a third daily LHR service but that probably won't be until atleast 2010 when they start taking on more aircraft.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 18):
NZ has ordered 773ER to replace its 744 from about 2010. When this happens (and with the growth NZL-UK/Europe) NZ will have to operate at least 3 daily services if not 4! Current: AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-LAX-LHR. In future it will likely be AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-PVG-FRA/MAN, AKL-LAX-LHR, AKL-YVR-MAN with the HKG and LAX services being operated with 773ER and the PVG and YVR services using 772ER (the 772ER being freed up due to the entry of the 787s).

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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 17):
I'd be surprised if NZ could make AKL-JFK work. I'm sure they'll try, but much like TG they may decide to back out once the numbers start coming in. The route is made especially difficult by the fact that they don't have any sources of feeder traffic from JFK.

JFK will be an excellent entry point into the USA for the region, and UA/US have an excellent service out of JFK

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 17):
I have read that NZ plans to discontinue AKL-LAX-LHR in favor of AKL-YVR-LHR so as to avoid American immigration hassles

Source please?
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
and UA/US have an excellent service out of JFK




 rotfl 

I am sorry but neither carrier has any reasonable presence in JFK , UA have been cutting it back for years and years , about the only flights I can think of by UA out of JFK these days are the nonstop transcontinentals to LAX and SFO ... somehow I doubt may people are going to opt for a connection in JFK to fly between New Zealand and LAX/SFO
 
koruman
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:43 pm

I would like to dispel a few myths here.

Firstly, LAX-LHR is one of the airline's star sectors, in terms of both loads and yields.

Secondly, TG992 has got the modelling of SFO-LHR the wrong way round. Business and Premium Economy loads and yields were projected to be excellent, but Economy class loads were a major problem, as SFO's climate and lack of (sigh) theme parks sharply reduces leisure demand from the UK.

At present the airline can only have 1 California-LHR daily flight, and so LAX-LHR wins hands down.

Interestingly, they are allowed to extend NZ6 from LAX to Manchester or NZ8 from SFO to Manchester, and NZ6 seems much more likely to occur, again because the back of the plane would be empty to SFO from October to Easter.

Thirdly, JFK was considered an option for Air New Zealand until about a year ago, but the bloodbath which descended upon Air Tahiti Nui's direct Sydney-JFK flights, and the continued sub-50% loads Qantas gets on its JFK flights (which have the benefit - which Air NZ could never match - of combined feed at LAX from SYD, MEL, AKL and BNE) have made crystal clear to Air NZ's route planners that JFK is not a route to try out. The same is true of Chicago and Denver: sure, they are UA hubs, but so are LAX and SFO, so why cannibalise LAX and SFO services to fly to those destinations?

Really, the only viable North American destinations for Air New Zealand are Los Angeles, San Francisco, Honolulu and Vancouver. And instead of trying out ever more risky and distant ones, they would do better just adding services to those existing destinations from eastern Australia. Richard Branson has announced that Virgin Atlantic will fly 787-9s non-stop from London to Honolulu, and I still believe that if Air NZ is going to make Honolulu work it should be as a refuelling point between Auckland and London for a fourth London daily flight (after those via LAX, HKG and YVR).
 
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 23):
JFK was considered an option for Air New Zealand until about a year ago, but the bloodbath which descended upon Air Tahiti Nui's direct Sydney-JFK flights, and the continued sub-50% loads Qantas gets on its JFK flights (which have the benefit - which Air NZ could never match - of combined feed at LAX from SYD, MEL, AKL and BNE) have made crystal clear to Air NZ's route planners that JFK is not a route to try out

Source for this please? Thats now, but in three years, that can change. Look at the Tasman, previously the tasman was a blood bath and NZ was not making money, and the tasman is still a blood bath, but now NZ is making a profit on it after changing things on the routes. If an airline is going to make a route work, then the airline will need to adjust things.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 22):

Even if most of UAs destinations are not non stop, you can still get to alot of the west coast via IAD. Plus there is also the other Star cariers that serve JFK that pax could connect to
 
Gemuser
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:15 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 24):
Thats now, but in three years, that can change.

Of course it can, but its still doubtful.

Even if the B787 meets all expectations, AKL-JFK at 7671 nm (GC) suffers about a 40,000lb payload penalty, which can't be helpful, even if there is sufficient demand, something that frankly is debatable.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 24):
Even if most of UAs destinations are not non stop, you can still get to alot of the west coast via IAD.

If you have just arrive at JFK, on NZ from AKL, why in hell would you want to connect to anywhere via IAD, let alone the West Coast  confused 

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koruman
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:20 pm

777ER, you write that an airline with a failing route (eg SYD-JFK) needs to adjust correct this.

Well that's exactly what Air Tahiti Nui has done. Unfortunately for the argument that JFK should be developed as an alternative route to LAX, Air Tahiti Nui is now stopping at LAX en route to and from JFK!

In other words, two neighbour airlines (Qantas and Air Tahiti Nui) both fly to JFK, and both find they can only sustain it by flying there via LAX.

Which tells me that Air NZ should stick to operating to LAX and SFO (possibly adding extra flights from Australia and onwards to Manchester) and LEARN from the suffering of Qantas and Air Tahiti Nui by not inflicting upon itself the suffering which comes from trying to fly to somewhere which is as far away as JFK, but which has such minimal links with New Zealand.

London and Manchester are different - there are strong links to the "mother country". But links to the USA beyond California are minimal, and Americans have such short vacations that most people on the east coast who could travel to NZ actually won't because it's too far to travel in such a short time.
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:42 pm

To the extent that people are considering JFK because of the possibility of doing AKL-JFK-LHR . . . yes, you could, but that market is much more vicious than LAX-LHR -- even if NZ had a decent product, BA has actual frequency in that market which NZ couldn't match. No one has significant frequency in the LHR-LAX market.

I've done some more digging to find the source I referenced above in reply #17. (Thanks Google Desktop!)

http://www.salon.com/tech/col/smith/...07/08/10/askthepilot240/index.html

"Air New Zealand has responded [to the hassles of US immigration] with the launch of a service from Auckland to Europe with a hassle-free transfer at Vancouver, British Columbia, eliminating its long-standing Auckland-Los Angeles-London route."

The source quoted in the linked article is Business Traveler magazine out of the UK. Since I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else in the aviation press, I'm skeptical that it's accurate, but at least you can see the source for yourself. (I'm having trouble getting ANZ's site to load in order to check for a relevant press release.) Maybe the reporter was doing a little Wikipedia source-checking?
 
DavidByrne
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 27):
"Air New Zealand has responded [to the hassles of US immigration] with the launch of a service from Auckland to Europe with a hassle-free transfer at Vancouver, British Columbia, eliminating its long-standing Auckland-Los Angeles-London route."

Must surely refer to code-share operations (have they been established YVR-LHR with AC?). "Transfer" to me implies pax moving from one aircraft to another.
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 18):
NZ has ordered 773ER to replace its 744 from about 2010. When this happens (and with the growth NZL-UK/Europe) NZ will have to operate at least 3 daily services if not 4! Current: AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-LAX-LHR. In future it will likely be AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-PVG-FRA/MAN, AKL-LAX-LHR, AKL-YVR-MAN with the HKG and LAX services being operated with 773ER and the PVG and YVR services using 772ER (the 772ER being freed up due to the entry of the 787s).

This suggest that a MAN flight may commence around 2010-2011. Any official quotes about a MAN flight available? Would be great to see NZ metal at MAN.
 
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 28):

Must surely refer to code-share operations (have they been established YVR-LHR with AC?). "Transfer" to me implies pax moving from one aircraft to another.

The point is that even though AKL-LHR pax via LAX are not "transferring" in the sense of changing aircraft, they still need to disembark and clear U.S. customs the same as if they were entering the U.S. This is a U.S. immigration policy (the same practice is exercised, for example, on QF's SYD-SFO-YVR route). Whereas the same "transfer" passengers in Canada can remain inside the international terminal and do not need to clear customs. (And may even be allowed to remain on the plane; I'm not sure where Canada and ANZ stand on that.)

And even if there is a codeshare involved, that doesn't explain the article's very clear reference to "eliminating its long-standing AKL-LAX-LHR route."
 
koruman
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:43 am

The article has missed the point.

John Mcilree made clear 2 weeks ago that Air NZ and Air Canada are coordinating flights at Vancouver so passengers can fly AKL-YVR on NZ and then transfer to AC for a connecting YVR-LHR flight.

But to be honest, I am barely more inconvenienced when I fly AKL-LHR via LAX as opposed to HKG (you don't pass general passport control at LAX, there are dedicated customs officers for the Air NZ flight at the Air NZ transit lounge).

And stopping for a photo and fingerprints during 90 minutes in transit at LAX is still less inconvenient than changing aircraft and airlines at YVR is going to be.
 
brucek
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:24 am

Thanks for all the good discussion to my original question, everybody. Bruce.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 30):
And even if there is a codeshare involved, that doesn't explain the article's very clear reference to "eliminating its long-standing AKL-LAX-LHR route."

I simply dont believe it. Ill believe it when I see it from NZ.
It is what it is...
 
777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 25):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 24):
Even if most of UAs destinations are not non stop, you can still get to alot of the west coast via IAD.

If you have just arrive at JFK, on NZ from AKL, why in hell would you want to connect to anywhere via IAD,

After you arrive in LAX on an NZ flight and your wanting to transfer onto a UA flight to ORD, DTW, IAD, JFK etc, then you have to wait around 8-10, maybe longer hours for the red-eye flight, then add on the 4+ hour red-eye flight. It isn't a nice experience having to wait for 10 bloody hours in LA. I've flowen to DTW twice now (recently got back from DTW), and the wait in LAX is VERY annoying. If NZ operated a flight to the east coast, like JFK, then I would take the JFK flight, even if it means tranfering in IAD as it would cut over half the waiting/flying time on trips to the top of the USA and Canada. On my next trip to DTW, I'm now considering taking NZs YVR flight as it will be quicker, cause I'm tired of waiting in LAX for that long. I know someone is goin to be flying shortly with a kid who is only a few months old, and I feel very sorry for her, as she will have to wait in LAX for hours for the red-eye. NZs arrival time in LAX creates nightmares for east coast flights
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 34):
NZs arrival time in LAX creates nightmares for east coast flights

AMEN........when you think about it , it is stupid. Three flights a day from AKL to the U.S. west coast and not one has an acceptable east bound connection . I can't believe they need the feed for all three from ADL/MEL/SYD and BNE.
To add insult to injury they have recently set up a code share with the arm pit of U.S. domestic carriers, US-Air.
They need a 9.00am arrival in LAX which means about a 5.00pm dept. out of AKL. They used to do it. In my view they need to advance their OZ feeds- AKL-LAX-LHR schedule by about 2 hours in both directions
 
koruman
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:34 am

I'm hoping that the airline routes its multiple London flights (at least 4-5 daily once the 787s arrive) via a variety of geographical refuelling points to spread arrival and departure times around the clock.

That's why I'd like to see a combination of AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-PER-LHR, AKL-HNL-LHR, AKL-LAX-LHR and AKL-YVR-LHR as five daily services, plus AKL-LAX-MAN, to ensure that flights to LAX, HNL and YVR are staggered around the clock, allowing better same day connections across North America.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:00 am

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 30):
Whereas the same "transfer" passengers in Canada can remain inside the international terminal and do not need to clear customs. (And may even be allowed to remain on the plane; I'm not sure where Canada and ANZ stand on that.)

CX passengers on their JFK-YVR-HKG flight can stay on board at YVR if they wish according to their website, but in the eastbound direction they have to deplane at YVR and wait in the in-transit area but without any customs or additional security formalities. I believe all international to international connections at YVR permit the passenger to avoid any further customs and security checks at YVR, provided they remain in the sterile in-transit area. The exception would be a connection to the USA where they would have to claim their bags and pass through US customs/immigration pre-clearance (except CX/PR and seasonal QF 5th freedom flights YVR-JFK/LAS/SFO respectively, which do not use pre-clearance and all passengers post-clear on arrival in the US).
 
777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 35):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 34):
NZs arrival time in LAX creates nightmares for east coast flights

AMEN........when you think about it , it is stupid. Three flights a day from AKL to the U.S. west coast and not one has an acceptable east bound connection

Only QF provide good connections in LAX, and they are able to time their AKL flights perfectly even with QF25 arriving from MEL first. NZ needs a 5pm or 6pm AKL departure. I hope also that the new US code-share will help reduce the waiting times in LAX
 
boswashsprstar
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:30 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
CX passengers on their JFK-YVR-HKG flight can stay on board at YVR if they wish according to their website, but in the eastbound direction they have to deplane at YVR and wait in the in-transit area but without any customs or additional security formalities. I believe all international to international connections at YVR permit the passenger to avoid any further customs and security checks at YVR, provided they remain in the sterile in-transit area. The exception would be a connection to the USA where they would have to claim their bags and pass through US customs/immigration pre-clearance (except CX/PR and seasonal QF 5th freedom flights YVR-JFK/LAS/SFO respectively, which do not use pre-clearance and all passengers post-clear on arrival in the US).

Does QF post-clear? I would have thought that they used pre-clearance for any YVR->SFO O&D pax they carry. The reason is that unlike CX, which stops over in Canada, QF's service terminates in the Canadian city and stops over in the US. So anyone boarding at YVR will definitely have to clear US customs regardless of whether they're stopping at SFO or continuing to Australia, and it could save southbound turnaround time in SFO to pre-clear all those pax at YVR.

On the other hand, it makes sense that CX doesn't pre-clear -- passengers HKG->YVR->JFK do not have to worry about customs during the stopover and then everyone (both pax originating HKG and pax originating YVR) can clear together upon arrival at JFK.
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 2):
My understanding is that the NZ / UK agreement stipulates that only one daily flight for each country can be via the US with full fifth freedom rights.

So how come no UK airline is operating on this route ?

if it's such a star performer i'm sure BA or VS would leap in.

It's obviously only "ok" as BA pulled it's NZ routes Eons ago and hasnt exactly rushed back and given it's QF/AA /CX partners it probably neednt..

VS would be the obvious choice but obviously they are not confident on filling the plane.
As non of the US Airlines offer services, there's not much confidence here either.

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 17):
Also -- the entire discussion of LHR-LAX (or JFK-LHR) may become a moot point very soon. I have read that NZ plans to discontinue AKL-LAX-LHR in favor of AKL-YVR-LHR so as to avoid American immigration hassles. I'm having trouble finding the article just at the moment, though (I believe it was a Salon Ask the Pilot article, though at the time I wasn't able to find it listed anywhere else).

Why would NZ offer a route via another star alliance hub on an existing competing star alliance route ??
YVR-UK is AC's country and a star partner ?
Would MAN yields for a non-stop really be that high ? If they were wouldnt AC be doing it already ?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 21):
JFK will be an excellent entry point into the USA for the region, and UA/US have an excellent service out of JFK

I totally agree...whole heartedly.. just as much as Rotterdam International airport offfers global non-stop connections too ! JFK is a Star Alliance killing field.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
David_itl
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 40):
Would MAN yields for a non-stop really be that high ? If they were wouldnt AC be doing it already ?

There might be sufficient premium numbers for NZ to operate YVR-MAN as they'd be offering AKL-MAN and AKL-YVR routes but insufficient for AC to operate it (remembering that AC only operates MAN-YYZ for 3 months a year due to competition from other carriers); I guess what we'd all like to know is what the AKL-MAN sector (better make it New Zealand-Northern UK sector) looks like in filling up the premum seats at the moment and try to project it forward 2 years or so as greater prsoperity embraces northern UK. But given a choice of YVR or SFO/LAX, I rather think that MAN's management team would prefer SFO/LAX (more likely LAX).
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 39):
Does QF post-clear? I would have thought that they used pre-clearance for any YVR->SFO O&D pax they carry. The reason is that unlike CX, which stops over in Canada, QF's service terminates in the Canadian city and stops over in the US. So anyone boarding at YVR will definitely have to clear US customs regardless of whether they're stopping at SFO or continuing to Australia, and it could save southbound turnaround time in SFO to pre-clear all those pax at YVR.

Yes QF does post-clear on YVR-SFO. I confirmed this with someone who works at YVR airport. YVR has separate terminal piers that serve international (non-US) and US transborder flights. If QF wanted to use pre-clearance they would have to use a transborder gate for both their arrivals and departures, or two the aircraft from one gate to another. And with QF's very limited seasonal service YVR-SFO I doubt they carry many local passengers so they probably prefer not to inconvenience the through passengers to SYD as they would also have to preclear and check-in at the transborder part of the terminal.

I believe all passengers on AC's YVR-HNL-SYD flights (replaced by nonstop YVR-SYD in December) do preclear the US authorities at YVR, including through passengers to SYD. That's probably because a much higher percentage of AC's passengers are destined to HNL only that would be the case for QF to SFO.
 
777ER
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 40):
Quoting Nickofatlanta (Reply 2):
My understanding is that the NZ / UK agreement stipulates that only one daily flight for each country can be via the US with full fifth freedom rights.

So how come no UK airline is operating on this route ?

if it's such a star performer i'm sure BA or VS would leap in.

It's obviously only "ok" as BA pulled it's NZ routes Eons ago and hasnt exactly rushed back and given it's QF/AA /CX partners it probably neednt..

BA code share on QF services to AKL from LAX via SYD and direct, so BA are obviously very happy with this deal
 
StarGoldLHR
Posts: 1346
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RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting David_itl (Reply 41):
There might be sufficient premium numbers for NZ to operate YVR-MAN as they'd be offering AKL-MAN and AKL-YVR routes but insufficient for AC to operate it (remembering that AC only operates MAN-YYZ for 3 months a year due to competition from other carriers); I guess what we'd all like to know is what the AKL-MAN sector (better make it New Zealand-Northern UK sector) looks like in filling up the premum seats at the moment and try to project it forward 2 years or so as greater prsoperity embraces northern UK. But given a choice of YVR or SFO/LAX, I rather think that MAN's management team would prefer SFO/LAX (more likely LAX).

Exactly how many £5000 return ticket holders will travel between Auckland and Manchester ?
I admit I fly LHR-HKG on NZ and there business class is pretty full, however chatting to other passengers on this route most are upgrades, airline staff perks or governement employees travelling to/from London to New Zealand.

Given lack of government in manchester and little business trade between Manchester and Auckland i believe this is going to be a mostly "Y" class route. (Unless of course all those sheepskins in the lake district generate lots of cash ?)

Even MAN-YVR is hardly a major business route.

I do know (being a mancunian myself) that there is a lot of emigration between MAN and YVR, and New Zealand, I fear most of these passengers will be "family/personal" not business orientated... I'd go further and suggest Auckland via Quebec to Glasgow may generate more passenger than Manchester, given the history emigration of Scotland and New Zealand and Quebec.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
koruman
Posts: 2179
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:08 pm

RE: Air New Zealand Flights To LHR From The US.

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:06 pm

Actually, you have hit the nail on the head in terms of premium class traffic between AKL and LHR via LAX and HKG.

When I use my annual Gold Elite complimentary upgrades from premium economy to business premier, I find they are much more likely to clear on AKL-LHR via HKG than LAX. Obviously then, LHR-LAX is carrying more full-revenue passengers than LHR-HKG, and this is highlighted by the fact that I class (business redemption) inventory often isn't loaded at all for the LAX flight on days when several seats are released for the HKG flight.

Part of this different demand seems to be that Air NZ is an established carrier with adequate frequency on LHR-LAX, whereas it is a bit part player behind Cathay Pacific in particular on LHR-HKG.

No-one is suggesting that the north of England can justify a 747 to Auckland, but we are talking about an extension of an existing NZ5/6 AKL-LAX 777-200ER service. It seems pretty obvious that Manchester could fill the measly 26 Business Premier seats to LAX (they would then fill again for the onward flight to AKL with the existing LAX-AKL clientele). In terms of Premium Economy, the current two rows (18 seats) is probably significantly too few for Manchester-Los Angeles. All it would take would be the doubling of Premium Economy seats to amend the configuration of the 777-200ER to 26J / 36U / 242 Y, which I would think would sell well for a year-round MAN-LAX service.

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