LY777
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Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:07 am

The 77W is having more and more orders, whereas the 772 orders are really low.
My question is:Can the 77W beat the 772ER in term of orders?
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ManchesterMAN
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:40 am

The 772ER has had a 10+ year head start on the 77W and whilst the latter is racking up a good number of orders the technology will be overtaken by the next generation of aircraft such as the A350 before it could even come close to overtaking the hugely successful 772ER which will continue to attract orders itself in some measure. Even without this there simply isn't the same market for an aircraft the size of the 77W as there is for the smaller 772.
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sebring
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:55 am

The 772ER has 433 orders, of which 400 have been delivered. Clearly, orders are drying up. More may trickle in, but no surge is likely

The 773ER has 301 orders, of which roughly 100 have been delivered, suggesting that it a better long-term sales outlook. It's not a given that it can't overtake the 772ER
 
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Stitch
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
My question is:Can the 77W beat the 772ER in term of orders?

It is possible, but it will really depend on how soon airlines need a 350-seater. I do think the 77W has a better then even chance of making 400, but I also think the 772ER should clear 450, which would keep her ahead, overall.
 
Glom
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:55 am

The 77W needs about a hundred of so orders to beat the 77B. That's entirely possible given its current marketshare, A350 or not. Think about how many orders the A330 has gotten despite the 787.
 
kaitak744
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
The 772ER has 433 orders



Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
The 773ER has 301 orders

The 777-300ER can easily get 132 orders within a few years. Even the 767-300ER, which is "more outdated" than the 777-300ER is still picking up lots of orders.

The A350-1000 only competes with the 777-300ER in the looong term. Next available 777-300ER delivery: late 2009/early 2010. Next available A350-1000 delivery: 2016-2017. That is about 7 years later.

(With 228 orders and commitments, the A350 is probably sold out for the first 2-3 years.)
 
LY777
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:56 pm

so, how many orders for each type of 777?

772 :?
772ER: 431
77L: ?
77F: ?

773: ?
77W: 301
Flown:A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388,717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W,D8,D10,L
 
cobra27
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:16 pm

There are no signs from Boeing for 787-10 or even -11 version, so I reckon the A350 will take the cake, cause 777W wont stay competitive. Lets just hope the 787-11 comes out.

Quoting LY777 (Reply 10):
772 :?
772ER: 431
77L: ?
77F: ?

773: ?
77W: 301

Aren't 777-200LR in 777W category (bigger wings and engine and strenthened fuselage?)
 
JMO-777
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 10):

so, how many orders for each type of 777?
772 :?
772ER: 431
77L: ?
77F: ?
773: ?
77W: 301

Hi!

772: 88
77E: 430
77L: 44
77F: 80
773: 60
77W: 301

GreetZ,
Jan
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Zkpilot
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:41 pm

I hope it gets lots of orders, but one thing I think people haven't noticed is that deliveries are pretty much sold out til 2010... are airlines going to be ordering many 773ER after 2010? Intially I think they will but by around 2012 the 773ER will be getting tired...
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zvezda
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:48 pm

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 9):
The 777-300ER can easily get 132 orders within a few years.

The 777-300ER would need to get 132 orders plus however many the 777-200ER gets in the future, which could be a few dozen.

I seem to be more pessimistic about the future prospects of the 777-300ER vis-a-vis the 787 and A350 than most here, but I think there is a greater than 50% chance that 777-300ER orders will eventually exceed 777-200ER orders.
 
columba
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 4):
The 773ER has 301 orders, of which roughly 100 have been delivered, suggesting that it a better long-term sales outlook. It's not a given that it can't overtake the 772ER

The 777-300ER currently is the best aircraft in its class. The next generation the A350-1000 is another 8 years away and it is very likely that the 77W will see another 50-100 orders in that time.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
krisyyz
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:29 am

Is it fair to say that the A350 will compete with the B777 ? The A350s EIS is 2013, the B77W will have been flying for 10+ years by then. IMO the A340 is the B777s only true competitor.

KrisYYZ
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
Is it fair to say that the A350 will compete with the B777 ? The A350s EIS is 2013, the B77W will have been flying for 10+ years by then.

Yes, the A350 and 777 will be direct competitors. 10 years isn't that old for an aircraft design, especially a good one, and, contrary to what seems to be popular belief, designs are continuously updated throughout their lives.

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
IMO the A340 is the B777s only true competitor.

They are designed around the same missions but it's a very lopsided competition. The 777 trounces the A340 on economics.

Tom.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting KrisYYZ (Reply 23):
The A350s EIS is 2013, the B77W will have been flying for 10+ years by then.

...actually, 9 years, but anyways  Wink
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ikramerica
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 10):
so, how many orders for each type of 777?

Congrats on 1000 posts!!!

Next stop, 10000 posts...  Wink
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fanblade
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting JMO-777 (Reply 8):
772: 88
77E: 430
77L: 44
77F: 80
773: 60
77W: 301

Just a newbie question but could someone explain the nomenclature of the W? I figure E is ER, L is LR, F is freighter but I'm missing the W.

fanblade
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:47 am

77W = 777-300ER

It's the international identifying code for the aircraft. I can't find the complete list, but this will get you started.
http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/table_accodes_en.php
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
akelley728
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:52 am

772: 777-200
77E: 777-200ER
77L: 777-200LR
77F: 777-200LRF
773: 777-300
77W: 777-300ER

All of the above codes were determined by IATA, who published an annual "Coding Directory" for all aircraft types (that's why the 737-700 is called the 73G). As for why the 777-300ER is called the 77W, urban legend has it that the 'W' is for the raked wingtips of the 777-300ER, but there's no official reason.
 
LY777
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Quoting LY777 (Reply 10):
so, how many orders for each type of 777?

Congrats on 1000 posts!!!

Next stop, 10000 posts...

thanks!
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skytony
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:55 pm

I thought the W stands for "Worldliner". Is it not the marketing name that Boeing gave the 777-300ER?
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skytony
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:58 pm

Opps. The "World Liner" is the 777-200LR. There goes that theory.
Lower your expectations! You will always be pleasantly surprised!
 
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PM
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
Can the 77W beat the 772ER in term of orders?

I'd say it's a matter of "when" rather than "if". The 777-300ER is an instant classic - the right design at the right time. (Think of the 727-200ADV.) At the moment, there's nothing to touch it and even if the A350-1000 comes out on top, that's still many years away. Meanwhile, the 777-200ER is on its last legs. It is several years since it won a significant order from a new airline (TAAG for 2 more than two years ago was the last new customer. Before that NZ ordered 4 in 2004 and PIA 3 in 2002). It is almost beyond belief that a new customer will pop up and place a double-figure order. So the 777-200ER is left with small top-up orders (such as 4 for BA in March) but that's about all. The 777-200ER will do well to reach 450 (not that this is any kind of 'failure'!) whereas I confidently expect the 777-300ER to breeze past that number with room to spare.
 
LY777
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:05 pm

And what "killed" the 77E in the last years?
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zvezda
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:33 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 23):
And what "killed" the 77E in the last years?

That's easy. The 787 offers the ineluctable combination of better range, smaller size, and lower per seat purchase and operating costs than the 777-200ER.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 23):
And what "killed" the 77E in the last years?

For near-term orders, it was (and is) the 777-200LR, which can be purchased for a similar price and offers better performance and economics.

For longer-term orders, the 787-8 and 787-9 offer the benefits Zvezda notes above.
 
LY777
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:24 am

Isn't the 77L more expensive than the 77E?
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zvezda
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 26):
Isn't the 77L more expensive than the 77E?

Yes, but it's a small difference compared to the difference between the 777-200ER and the 787-9, which are only 0.7 meters different in cabin length.
 
azhobo
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
t is possible, but it will really depend on how soon airlines need a 350-seater. I do think the 77W has a better then even chance of making 400

The 77W will likely have 400+ orders by EOY 2008, and 500+ orders sometime in 2010. Unless Boeing launches an upgraded 777 by then.

HOBO
 
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Stitch
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting LY777 (Reply 26):
Isn't the 77L more expensive than the 77E?

By only a few million. Boeing is discounting the 77L more aggressively then the 77E.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting JMO-777 (Reply 8):
772: 88
77E: 430
77L: 44
77F: 80
773: 60
77W: 301

Nice numbers. Thank you. So that is 301+80+44 or 425 airframes uncontested for 850 (plus spares) GE-90 engines.

Not to mention, the GE-90 is rumored to go "out the door" with the highest profit of any engine in the fleet.

That economy of scale alone will keep sales going after it might have tapered off otherwise. I'm not talking about new customers, but rather "top off" orders.

Quoting Skytony (Reply 21):
Opps. The "World Liner" is the 777-200LR. There goes that theory.

Good thing you caught your error.  Wink

Seriously, with the impending EIS of the 788, how many more 77L's will be sold? I'm not aware of a single new customer looking into the passenger version of the airframe. Sure I can see DL and EK picking up a dozen more between them... but that's it. Did I miss anyone?

Not that I consider the 77L a bad design. As it enabled the 77F (which, in my opinion, will be in production for a long time) the small added engineering costs were easily amortized. Does anyone know the original sales projections?

Quoting PM (Reply 22):

I'd say it's a matter of "when" rather than "if". The 777-300ER is an instant classic - the right design at the right time.

I agree. But not for all of the reasons PM might think... 787 and A350's are going to be tough to acquire for a long time. Boeing can also accelerate production pretty cheaply. Thus they might be sold as "placeholders" a la some of the A332 sales.  Wink I'm also impressed with what Boeing/GE has done with the range of the 77W. Believe it or not, every few hundred more nautical miles of range they add increments the order book by a few more dozen.

Personally, as a last "oomph", I expect to see a few more fuel tanks squeezed in to enable SIN-LAX/JFK. Not this year... but long term. But note, this is pure speculation based on a little engineering intuition.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
That's easy. The 787 offers the ineluctable combination of better range, smaller size, and lower per seat purchase and operating costs than the 777-200ER.

Nicely put. With my questions on future 77L sales, do you have an opinion?

Lightsaber
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zvezda
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 30):
Nicely put. With my questions on future 77L sales, do you have an opinion?

I agree with everything in your post. My expectation is that the only 777-200LR orders we'll see in the future will be top-up orders. The future belongs to the 787 and A350.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
The 777-300ER is an instant classic - the right design at the right time.

"Instant"?
...depends on when you start counting, launch or EIS.
Between its launch and a few months after EIS, orders were rather thin. 2005 seemed to be the coming-out year for the aircraft as an industry power.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
boeingbus
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 32):
2005 seemed to be the coming-out year for the aircraft as an industry power.

right around the same time fuel prices went through the roof due to supply shortages....
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Can The 77W Beat The 772ER In Term Of Orders?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 33):

right around the same time fuel prices went through the roof due to supply shortages....

they peaked at not-before-seen levels, sure... but fuel had been at a disconcertingly (well, to consumers anyways) sharp rise for three years prior.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!