N77014
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If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:51 pm

So what would a modern day Pan Am look like had it survived the dark early 90's?


International FLEET and DESTINATIONS...

A320 for MIA/JFK-MEX, CUN, GUA, SAL, BZE, TGU, SAP, MGA, SJO, LIR, PTY, STT, SJU, PLS, SDQ, PAP, POP, POS, GCM, ANU, SXM, and domestic traffic ex JFK.


A330-200/300 for trunk routes such as MIA-EZE, GIG, GRU, Brazilian NE resort cities,CCS, BOG, MDE, BQN, LIM, SCL, MVD, LAP, ASU, and extra capacity for Caribbean and Central America destinations.

From JFK and select MIA flights, service for MAD, BCN, LIS, LHR, DUB, SNN, CDG, BRU, FRA, DUS, MUC, HAM, ZRH, GVA, MXP, FCO, AMS, CPH,

A340-600 for TLV, CAI, DXB, IST, SVO, ATH ex JFK, and MIA-LHR, MAD, FRA, JNB (via DKR?)

Any thoughts?
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cbphoto
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:21 pm

What makes you think they would have had an all Airbus fleet? If I remember correctly Pan Am was pretty Loyal to Boeing, so I would imagine they would have a relatively large Boeing fleet! Of course all we can do is speculate!!!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
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sammyk
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 1):
If I remember correctly Pan Am was pretty Loyal to Boeing

Actually, they seemed to have turned to Airbus in their later years with A300s and A310s even ordering some A320s.
 
Flight209
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:34 pm

N77014, I suppose you're assuming an alternate history in which PA (a) did not sell its LHR and (IIRC) South American route authorities to UA, (b) did not sell most of its other European route authorities to DL, and (c) was able to strengthen its ties to Airbus beyond the A300 and A310 and a stillborn A320 order.

Of course, if you want to deal with an earlier point of divergence from actual history -- the mid-1980s, to be exact -- then how about a modern-day PA that has all of the planes and destinations you mention and has held on to its Asia/Pacific operation, too?  

[Edited 2007-09-18 08:36:14]
I may question your opinion, but I'll never question your right to it.
 
grantcv
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:48 pm

Well, first of all - Pan Am did survive - kinda sort-of. Its now a railway and a small airline based in Portsmouth New Hampshire. Maybe its just a horrible example of badge engineering, but it does carry on the Pan Am brand.

If the original Pan Am had survived, it would have had to have taken a very different path to the one it took. So we have to look at the Pan Am in its heyday and extrapolate forward. Ignore the merger with National, the attempts to compete in the domestic market, the sell-of of routes, and the switch to Airbus.

Perhaps Pan Am could have instead become the first truly global airline - rather than an international American airline. Perhaps, under the right leadership, Pan Am could have become what Emirates seems intent on becoming. Having New York as a hub would seem to be an advantage to Pan Am. Perhaps Pan Am would have been the launch customer for the A380 and the B787. And perhaps the B748 would have another customer. Maybe the Pan Am brand could have been extended the way the Virgin brand or BA brands have been expanded around the world.

Pan Am was an airline known around the world - more so than any other airline probably. That should have been exploited. If Pan Am had been led by someone with vision and a passion for building Pan Am, it could have been.
 
columba
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting Cbphoto (Reply 1):
What makes you think they would have had an all Airbus fleet? If I remember correctly Pan Am was pretty Loyal to Boeing, so I would imagine they would have a relatively large Boeing fleet! Of course all we can do is speculate!!!

Pan Am had the A300 and A31o in its fleet and were very satisfied with it. They also has A320 on order which went to Braniff and then to American West if my memory serves me right. I also think they had ordered F100s for Berlin flights.
I don´t think that you can say they were loyal to Boeing because at one point they had aircraft from every western manufacturer of large aircraft: Airbus, Boeing, Lockheed, MDD.
I bet it is safe to say that they would have a mixed fleet of Airbus and Boeing.
I think they would have something like this:
A319, A320, A321 would have replaced 737-200s and 727-200s
A330 replaced A310/A330 would be used for latin America from JFK and maybe Europe
777-200ERs and 777-300ERs replace Dc 10, L1011, 7477SP, 747-100
747-400 for Pacific flights
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
RicciPettit
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:27 pm

If PanAm were miraculously still around and still with the same attitudes towards purchases than their heyday I wonder if we would see an A380 fleet to rival Emirates.

Imagine how cool an A380 would look in the billboard livery. One can dream...
Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either!
 
DALATBHM
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:43 pm

Im pretty sure it would have affected Delta and United if the "original" Pan Am hadnt gone under. Delta got a lot of there European stuff, and if I recall, United got there Pacific stuff. (Please correct if im wrong.)
 
okay
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:19 pm

I wonder how, if at all they would have updated their corporate livery? I mean since those days that PA went under airlines have updated their livery, I guess PA would have done the same? Even though PA livery was one of those quite "timeless" looking.. But maybe the big text on the fuselage would have received a modernisation, ie. it would be tilted or something..Just imagining here! It is sad PA is gone, it sure was a global airline, it seemed (at least for a 10-year-old-boy) it was present everywhere in the world.

okAY
 
rootsair
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:29 pm

Pan am IMHO would have been a typical 777-200ER operator ! I can imagine a 777 in PA livery more than any other a/c !

 airplane  wave 
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SEPilot
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:46 pm

I think that Pan Am had a snowball's chance in Hell of surviving. Pan Am was largely built on the political arm-twisting by Juan Trippe, and once he departed the scene all the backlash against his maneuvering hit, and the arms he had twisted became untwisted. Pan Am thereby entered the most turbulent era of airline history with no friends and many enemies in high places, and was blessed with less than stellar leadership to boot (also thanks to Juan; he was a totally autocratic leader and gave no thought to training underlings to show leadership. They had to go outside, which might have worked if they found the right man but with nobody in the organization who dared raise his head it was pretty well doomed to fail). The miracle is that they lasted as long as they did.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
hiflyer
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 pm

If a merger between DL and UA occurs then you will see what Pan Am would have looked like as far as routes....  Wink  Wink  Wink

Seriously...as far as aircraft PanAm1 was leaning towards Airbus only due to the more favorable terms being offered....

Remember it was Delta in control at shutdown as Debtor-in-possession and their plans were a MIA hub and Latin America/Carib flying which the 330/777/767 could have handled with no need for a 4 engine bird. The first 6 or so 320's had already been refused and were going to Braniff II. DL was absorbing a large MD8x series order and PanAm had a quite motley group of 727's from various carriers getting pretty ragged....same with their 741's and 742's.

Given all that I think DL would have allowed the 320 to PanAm to join with the 300/310 even though their plans were to remain with the md8x and the md11 along with the 763. There were rumors at the time about picking up some 757's off the Eastern estate for Pan Am on a temp basis but I don't know what was considered back then as a replacement for the 747's remaining...the ones to remain were recently rebuilt for the CRAF program so low time airframes.
 
panamair
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:44 pm

One way that Pan Am could have survived was if the 1989 (or 1990) merger proposal with NWA was accepted (instead, the NWA board accepted the LBO offer from Al Checchi and his group). One of Pan Am's last CEOs (Tom Plaskett who came from American Airlines and had worked under Bob Crandall) made a bold and credible offer (with financial backing of around US$3.3 -3.5 billion led by Bankers Trust) for NW when NW was put into play. Had the Pan Am bid been accepted, it would have created a truly global US carrier with a strong domestic system and the Transatlantic asset sales to UA and DL a few years later would probably never have happened.

The Pacific had been sold to UA back in 1985 and by 1988/89, PA was the largest transatlantic carrier. That combined with NW's formidable Pacific presence, as well as strong domestic network would have enabled the combined PA/NW (which probably would have made it the largest US carrier) to continues soldiering on..and who knows, the Blue Meatball would still be around today....
 
n53614
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:36 pm

A modern-day Pan Am might have a small fleet of B727-200s...
B722 B732 B733 B734 B735 B73G B738 B739 B742 B752 B763 B772 A319 A320 A332 CRJ2 DHC8 DH8D E135 E140 E145 MD83
 
ankaraflyjet
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:59 pm

N77014 From Nicaragua, joined Apr 2004, 706 posts, RR: 0
A340-600 for TLV, CAI, DXB, IST, SVO, ATH ex JFK, and MIA-LHR, MAD, FRA, JNB (via DKR?)


Please add ESB (Ankara) to your list as I am sure PAN AM would extend Istanbul flight to Ankara ex JFK.
 
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 12):
One way that Pan Am could have survived was if the 1989 (or 1990) merger proposal with NWA was accepted

This is the only credible scenario I have ever read that would have allowed PA to survive. I still think the whole thing would have sunk, and perhaps one of the reasons the NW board rejected their proposal was the ill will that Juan Trippe had accrued over the years had not yet dissipated (although by 1989 it would be considerably less potent.) But institutions acquire their own characteristics, and the dominant characteristic of PA was arrogance, which it never shed.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:41 pm

When I think of Pan Am and what could have been I prefer to disregard the 80's all together. The downfall of PanAm was their acquisition of National. Here's what PanAm looked like that prior to the merger.



full-sized image

The merger saddled them with debt and really didn't help their route network. An airline which provided better synergy was Delta. Let's assume PanAm and Delta had agreed on a merger creating a new holding corporation where no money changed hands. Delta would operate all domestic routes and PanAm all international routes. Both would do business as PanAm. This is what Delta's route map looked like. Both route maps are from October 1979 and are from Airchive.com



full-sized image
The new PanAm would have had plenty of aircraft and markets with which it could serve JFK, LAX and Miami.

A hub at LAX could later come about by buying one of AirCal, PSA or Western. All were sold in 1987.
 
EXAAUADL
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:44 pm

A surviving PA would have needed to merge with a domestic airline...Of course this means that PA structurally would hav e had to have been healthy going back to its last profitable year 1980.

It also means that either one of the three largest airlines, AA, DL and UA might not exist today in their current form...Given that PA is surviving, are economic conditions also good enough to let TWA be a successful airline and not have to sell its LHR slots to AA (or anyone else).

I think youd see a merger between PA and either UA and DL. All likelihood is that the PA name survives so today no UA or no DL. Maybe AA merges with TWA anyways but not in 2001 but in 1990.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 12):
by 1988/89, PA was the largest transatlantic carrier

I read somewhere that in the summer of 1988, TWA carried 50% of all transatlantic traffic for that summer.
 
aal0616
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:23 am

OK, here are my fantasy scenarios:

1988-89: NWA accepts PAA offer. Takes PAA name with 50/50 board split, with red tails beneath a white globe and dark blue Pan Am font on fuselage; aircraft same color as NWA now, light silver; Merged PAA/NWA operates 744 Pacific,. A340/330 family Atlantic/Latin America; A300/310 evolve by now to A332/333; Domestic, Canada, Mexico, Central America and Caribbean operate with 752 and A320 family fleets. The 2007 PAA has ordered 787s. The hubs are DTW-MSP-JFK-MIA-LAX-SFO-MEM-NRT-LHR-FRA. The alliance partner is Air France-KLM and Skyteam.

1985-86: Crandall beats UAL to the Pacific punch and acquires PAA outright. Fires Acker who gets millions, hangs out in Bermuda and starts Atlantic Coast to feed UAL and get back at Crandall (uh, isn't that what actually happened?). Crandall keeps AAL name. Never acquires TWA authority because it is not needed. PAA fits AAL perfectly. Drop "Pan" and the names even match. DFW is HQ; ORD-JFK-MIA-SFO-LAX-IAD are hubs given PAA global route authority. DAL never gets a crack at JFK and UAL is blocked at IAD. UAL cannot develop SFO as Pacific Hub. UAL flies Pacific from SEA. UAL has problems at ORD because AAL flies NRT, HKG and SHA. UAL eventually merges with TWA to at least compete effectively across the Atlantic. Other than Hawaii and SEA, UAL is #3 in the Pacific. AAL's huge former PAA and AAL combo hubs at JFK thwart COA's EWR plans, but COA and DAL combine. NWA and USA combine. NWA remains #2 in the Pacific. AAL destroys EAL at MIA. EAL folds. MIA is AAL fortress along with JFK. AAL even or ahead of UAL at ORD. AAL never develops RDU,. BNA or SJC. The alliance partner is, of course, oneworld and BA. All Boeing and Maddog fleet; owns Eagle, etc. Everyone hates them.

More likely:

1979-82: UAL and PAA merge, perhaps before the NAL purchase or after the big UAL strike. UAL management is the survivor and runs the company, which moves to ORD but keeps PAA name for global branding. PAA keeps more board seats. Acker never comes aboard (key to any fantasy scenario). Merged company hearkens back to PAA/UAL/Boeing J. T. Trippe-Pat Patterson-Bill Allen relationships of the 1930s and 1940s. A perfect fit. By 2007 company flies a trim but efficient combination of the UAL Domestic/Hawaii and PAA global route system. The hubs are ORD-DEN-SFO-LAX-JFK-IAD-MIA-NRT-LHR-FRA. The alliance partner is Lufthansa and STAR.

Known as a well managed, innovative and leading carrier. Introduces the 772, 773 and 772/3(W) aircraft and is launch customer for 787. Currently flies 744, 772, 773, 763, refurbed 762s on transcons, 752, and either the 737(NG) family (likely) or A320 family. Owns its own Regional affiliate in competition with AAL, which hooked up with TWA to effectively compete. Both PAA and AAL dominate domestic scene by mid-2000s which forced a DAL/COA combination. USA and NWA also merge. There are four legacy carriers. PAA (UAL) dominates Pacific and is #2 on Atlantic behind AAL (TWA). PAA (UAL) is #1 to Latin America, with DAL/COA, based at ATL/EWR/IAH/CLE or CVG/LAX/SLC, #2 to Latin America. AAL never develops big Latin presence from MIA and is confined to DFW-South service, although formidable to Mexico and Central America.

Now, back to reality ...

[Edited 2007-09-18 17:24:36]
 
N77014
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:54 am

Thanks all for your input...Interesting how emotionally attached some are to an airline that exists only in memory.

I did not add the Pacific routes because I can't, for now, remember if those went before or after the LHR and european routes.

But if they survived;

A330-200 for SFO- KIX, ICN, NRT, and NRT -SIN, BKK, MNL, HKG

A340-600 for LAX-HKG, NRT, ICN, SYD, AKL, MEL
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coa747
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:58 am

My fantasy scenario:

What if you went back even further and Pan Am had merged with TWA. Combining TWA's domestic network and trans-Atlantic strengths with Pan Am's incredible international presence in the Pacific and Inter-European routes, which would have created an almost unstoppable force. Both TWA and Pan Am were operating similar equipment at the time and both maintained sizeable hubs at JFK, the addition of St Louis would have provided Pan Am with the interior domestic hub it needed and they could have consolidated their west coast ops at LAX and maintained SFO. Then to that add Braniff again with more 727's and 747's which could provide its route network in Latin America and filled in the holes of TWA's domestic system and provided another strong domestic hub at DFW and well it makes my head spin.
 
N77014
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 20):
My fantasy scenario:

What if you went back even further and Pan Am had merged with TWA. Combining TWA's domestic network and trans-Atlantic strengths with Pan Am's incredible international presence in the Pacific and Inter-European routes, which would have created an almost unstoppable force. Both TWA and Pan Am were operating similar equipment at the time and both maintained sizeable hubs at JFK, the addition of St Louis would have provided Pan Am with the interior domestic hub it needed and they could have consolidated their west coast ops at LAX and maintained SFO. Then to that add Braniff again with more 727's and 747's which could provide its route network in Latin America and filled in the holes of TWA's domestic system and provided another strong domestic hub at DFW and well it makes my head spin.

Interesting spin. But I dare ask if stated companies would have offered the legendary level of service that made them famous in the first place. Just recently browsing Braniff's old ads; they had lounges and bars on board Big Orange and Pucci clad flight attendants. Only now with VS and their inflight bars and what may come on the A380 are we seeing a possible resurgence in amenity and service.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 19):
Thanks all for your input...Interesting how emotionally attached some are to an airline that exists only in memory.

I did not add the Pacific routes because I can't, for now, remember if those went before or after the LHR and european routes.

I recommend you check out www.airchive.com.

Here is the PanAm timetable page.
 
AA767LOVER
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 5):

What would also be lucrative would be A300s entirely dedicated as "Pan Am Cargo" for routes to Latin America where there is heavy cargo demand.

NW still has a mixed fleet of Boeing and Airbus. If Pan Am lived . . . it could follow this route too.
748s could be used for Asian routes. 787s could be used for Europe. A base in Latin America like LIM could be used for flights within South America (what TACA and LAN are seemingly doing at the moment). They would ferry people with greater flight frequency from LIM to BOG, CTG, CLO, MDL (Medellin?), UIO, GYE, CUZ, SCL, ASU, EZE, MVD, GRU, GIG, maybe Manaos. This way it will add more competition, and lower fares in this ridiculously high-fare region. Why didn't I mention CCS? I don't think Chavez would buy the idea! hahaha! he might even ban Pan Am if it still existed.

Aircraft to northern South America could be used with new generation 737s or Airbus products, depending on their choice.There are people with far better talent in graphic design than myself who could possibly envision a more modern look for Pan Am.

PAN AM, if it lived could also offer a superb transcon service offering all 3 classes, with 4 flights daily (as AA and UA, DL, VX, and B6) are all doing transcon. What aircraft, i don't know. It could have continued!

So sad they didn't make it.
J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
 
N77014
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting PavlovsDog (Reply 22):
I recommend you check out www.airchive.com.

Here is the PanAm timetable page.

Thanks for the link. So, clearly, PA sold off the Pacific route to UA prior to selling off LHR.
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panamair
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 24):
So, clearly, PA sold off the Pacific route to UA prior to selling off LHR.

There was a good six year gap between the Pacific route sale and the LHR sale....Pan Am sold off the Pacific routes in 1985 (1986 was the first year without the Pacific operation). It then concentrated on transatlantic in 1986 but that was the year of Chernobyl and the year that Reagan bombed Libya, setting off a steep decline in transatlantic travel, just as Pan Am expanded greatly across the pond.

LHR was only sold near the very end (the transaction changed hands in April 1991 with UA).

The Shuttle and Rest-of-Europe operation was sold to Delta in late 1991 (effective date November 1991)

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 17):
read somewhere that in the summer of 1988, TWA carried 50% of all transatlantic traffic for that summer.

TWA was bigger than Pan Am across the Atlantic at least during the first half of the '80s, especially when Pan Am still had the Pacific operation. However, once PA sold off the Pacific and concentrated on building up Europe, they did grow to be #1 across the Atlantic in the late eighties / early nineties...in fact, by 1991, Pan Am was flying to almost 40 cities in Europe before the sales to UA and DL.
 
N77014
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:48 am

So what level of service could we expect on today's Pan Am?

People who flew PA in their latter days have told me that service was a shell of its former self.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 4):
Well, first of all - Pan Am did survive - kinda sort-of. Its now a railway and a small airline based in Portsmouth New Hampshire. Maybe its just a horrible example of badge engineering, but it does carry on the Pan Am brand.

True, but IMO, this entity using the Pan Am name is somewhat bordering on heresy. The name should have been laid to rest with the original carrier.

I've often gone over scenarios where airlines long gone have survived, PA among them. I think they'd still fly to all 6 continents, perhaps albeit not with an around-the-world flight. Airbii probably the narrow body of choice, the 310/330 for Latin routes, 772/773 and 744 everywhere else. I can't decide about the Whalebus. It would look good with the billboard titles, but there would always have to be a 747 in the PA fleet, so the 747-8 would be there too.

Nice fantasy to have I guess. My Braniff scenario is even better.  cloudnine 
 
N77014
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 27):
True, but IMO, this entity using the Pan Am name is somewhat bordering on heresy. The name should have been laid to rest with the original carrier.

I've often gone over scenarios where airlines long gone have survived, PA among them. I think they'd still fly to all 6 continents, perhaps albeit not with an around-the-world flight. Airbii probably the narrow body of choice, the 310/330 for Latin routes, 772/773 and 744 everywhere else. I can't decide about the Whalebus. It would look good with the billboard titles, but there would always have to be a 747 in the PA fleet, so the 747-8 would be there too.

Nice fantasy to have I guess. My Braniff scenario is even better.

Now that would have been intereting...

DFW (BN) vs. MIA (PA) hub wars to Latin America.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
panamair
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 26):
People who flew PA in their latter days have told me that service was a shell of its former self.

Towards the end, of course most things were going downhill but International First Class was still respectable in many ways, in particular the catering. They were still doing Caviar, Chateaubriand carved from the cart (you could order your choice cut of beef), whole cakes for dessert, and occasionally even Lobster Thermidor - much better stuff than what you get today in international First Class on AA, UA, etc. Even in its last year, Pan Am was still serving Veuve Cliquot champagne in First, etc.

Of course the earlier decades saw things like eggs cooked to order for breakfast, a separate dining room area in the upper deck area of the 747 and 747SP (where you could make dinner reservations), cherries jubilee for dessert, etc.
 
N77014
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 29):
Towards the end, of course most things were going downhill but International First Class was still respectable in many ways, in particular the catering. They were still doing Caviar, Chateaubriand carved from the cart (you could order your choice cut of beef), whole cakes for dessert, and occasionally even Lobster Thermidor - much better stuff than what you get today in international First Class on AA, UA, etc. Even in its last year, Pan Am was still serving Veuve Cliquot champagne in First, etc.

Of course the earlier decades saw things like eggs cooked to order for breakfast, a separate dining room area in the upper deck area of the 747 and 747SP (where you could make dinner reservations), cherries jubilee for dessert, etc.

Even today's F class don't go there anymore, relying more on inflight entertaiment to pick up the slack where the meal service dropped off.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
MSYtristar
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:23 am

PA ordered quite a few 320's (some of which ended up going to Braniff 2) in the mid 80's and had retired many 747's from service by the time they went under. With that taken into consideration, and that the fact that PA had a pretty simple domestic fleet revolving around 727's mostly, a current PA fleet "could" have looked something like this. Also keep in mind that the AB3's and 310's would probably be gone by now.

A320 (U.S/Mexico/Caribbean/Latin America)
B767-300ER (South America/Europe low density, Hawaii)
B777-200ER (Europe/Asia/South America, U.S special markets)
B747-400 (Select Europe, Asia)

I could see them ordering the 777-300ER to replace the 747-400, and maybe a 747-8i order, but not many of them, maybe 15 for the busiest Asia routes and maybe one or two turns to Heathrow.

And of course they'd have regional Pan Am Express affiliates out of JFK, MIA, and SFO using some sort of RJ.

So in the end, I think you'd see PA with a mostly (or all) Airbus narrowbody fleet, and a mostly (or all) Boeing widebody fleet. They were into fleet simplificon towards the end. I think they would have continued that trend.
 
txkf2010
Posts: 188
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:23 am

If Pan Am survived...the world would just be a better place
...Rastafari Stands Alone...
 
UnitedFirst
Posts: 451
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:16 pm

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 30):
Even today's F class don't go there anymore, relying more on inflight entertaiment to pick up the slack where the meal service dropped off.

The millions of dollars earmarked once for high-quality F/C catering now ends up in the hands of IFE providers/distributors.

Indeed, the premium inflight meal service of years past was an entertainment program in itself.
 
clipper707
Posts: 82
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:31 am

In todays world Pan Am would have been flying the newest Boeing aircraft. 777,787, 747-400
Airbus 319,321,330 and maybe 380's would be in the fleet.
They would also be flying CRJ-200 and CRJ-900's from cities like DTW,ORD,PHL,JFK to the Florida cities.
Pan Am would also be at the smaller airports like FNT,MBS,MKG,TVC,PLN ect using the Dash 8-400's.
And lets not forget Pan Am Cargo aircraft. B-747-400F, MD-11F and perhaps the Airbus-380F ??
One can wonder what it all would have looked like if Ed Acker wouldn't have been such an A - - Hole!!!!!

Long live the grand old lady

You Can't beat the experience---------------PAN AM


Clipper707
The Clippers Gone But Not Forgotten
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:44 am

If PanAm Lived...

Most, if not all, international routes would have been sold off (save for a few Caribbean destinations). A merger with TWA would be very logical, with the Pan Am brand surviving. A new corporate identity would also be created.

747s from the newly combined fleet would be retired, leaving TWAs 767s and Pan Ams A310s for trans-Atlantic services, with 727s and MDs for the rest of the route structure. Pan Ams order for A320s would have gone through, to begin replacing the 727s.

Over time, the A310s would be sold off, and newer 767s placed into service. 777s would be brought into the fleet as well, though not in large numbers. The A320/MD fleet would either be slowly replaced by more A320 family aircraft or the airline would go all Boeing with the 737NG family.

As for in-flight service, I don't see the "glory days" surviving. Service aboard this "fantasy" Pan Am wouldn't be largely different from the other legacy carriers.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
PavlovsDog
Posts: 534
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:15 am

Who's to say that if say PanAm had merged in with Delta rather than National in 1979 that maybe Lockheed or McDonnell Douglas might still be in business. At that time Boeing was far from a monopoly in US civilian aerospace and Airbus was still a struggling young company.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 17):
I think youd see a merger between PA and either UA and DL. All likelihood is that the PA name survives so today no UA or no DL. Maybe AA merges with TWA anyways but not in 2001 but in 1990.

here is one problem with that and that is if DL wanted to be PA they had the chance(they had the naming rights on TALT flights) and i think after PA went under DL had all the naming rights but gave them up. I don't know about UA though.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
phllax
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:31 am

I think the best chance for survival would have been for PA and AL to evolve their late 70's code-share at JFK into a merger. They would have gained an instant stronghold in the NE, with the right sized aircraft for the time, the DC-9-30.
 
xtoler
Posts: 277
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:52 am

If Pan Am were still a legacy airline, we could rival Aeroflot as a national airline, seeing as how the old powers that be would never have let deregulation happen and we wouldn't have the likes of Southwest (Greyhound of the Skies). Joking aside, I think if Pan Am were still operating we'd probably see even more Airbus in the sky in the Western Hemisphere (yes, South America included). It would be pretty cool to see an A380 in Pan Am colors, but I think by then, good ol' American Boeing would be relegated to only making items for the the defense market, if we would be so lucky.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
USADreamliner
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 11):
If a merger between DL and UA occurs then you will see what Pan Am would have looked like as far as routes....

Pan Am had an almost non-esxistent domestic route system compared to any other US carrier.


Anyway,
My first flight on PA was:

4th of July, 1987:

EZE-MIA 747
MIA-JFK A310
JFK-CDG 747
CDG-TLV 727
 
fpofllflyboi
Posts: 224
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting N77014 (Thread starter):
So what would a modern day Pan Am look like had it survived the dark early 90's?

What could have potentially happened to all the airlines that got their equipment? Would that have put those airlines ahead or behind? Just a thought.
 
ewrw4co
Posts: 36
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting Flight209 (Reply 3):
N77014, I suppose you're assuming an alternate history in which PA (a) did not sell its LHR and (IIRC) South American route authorities to UA, (b) did not sell most of its other European route authorities to DL, and (c) was able to strengthen its ties to Airbus beyond the A300 and A310 and a stillborn A320 order

Only problem with this is N77014 flies as CO 777.
Working Hard
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12429
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:04 am

Similar ideas are being discussed in a thread about if the PA 103 terror crash didn't happen.
I don't think they would have lived any longer than TWA did. Foreign competition, USA and Euro deregulation, PA being such a symbol of the USA and thus a target of terrorists, the decline of political connections in the USA and elsewhere, the sharp decline of subsidies from the USA government on some routes for PA as well as growing international airlines, DL and other airlines having more international routes open up for them, all did and would have doomed them anyway. I do agree that if had lived into 2000, they would have probably had a mix of Airbus and Boeing a/c, A-300/310's, A-320's, 727's (until wore out or after 9/11/01) or A-737's along with Boeing 767's, 747's and maybe 777's. I doubt they would have gone for the A-380 due to political reasons.
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting N53614 (Reply 13):
A modern-day Pan Am might have a small fleet of B727-200s...

Don't forget the J31s!  Wink

I have actually flown the new Pan Am. What a disgrace.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
User avatar
SEPilot
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:43 pm

As I have mentioned on this thread and elsewhere, organizations have personalities that do not change rapidly. The whole airline business in the US changed overnight upon deregulation, and all existing airlines were suddenly faced with a vastly different playing field with new rules. Some (AA, UA, DL, NW) managed to adapt and survive; others were not able to (Eastern, Braniff, TWA, PA). Of those that did not, Pan Am was really the least likely to, as they had been the one that had relied the heaviest on regulation and political clout throughout their formative years. They were able to survive as long as they did because they had acquired so many assets during that time that they were able to survive by selling them off for most of the 80's. But to imagine them surviving until 2000 or beyond as likely as imagining steam rail passenger service still being available between New York and Washington.
Personal note: My mother (who was born in Germany) made a trip to Germany in the '60's; she flew over on PA and back on TWA. She really noticed the difference; the PA people were rude and arrogant; the TWA people were extremely friendly and helpful. She vowed she would never fly PA again; she did go to Europe several times again in the 80's & 90's, and never did fly PA again.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8010
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RE: If PanAm Lived...

Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 31):
A320 (U.S/Mexico/Caribbean/Latin America)
B767-300ER (South America/Europe low density, Hawaii)
B777-200ER (Europe/Asia/South America, U.S special markets)
B747-400 (Select Europe, Asia)

I could see them ordering the 777-300ER to replace the 747-400, and maybe a 747-8i order, but not many of them, maybe 15 for the busiest Asia routes and maybe one or two turns to Heathrow.

And of course they'd have regional Pan Am Express affiliates out of JFK, MIA, and SFO using some sort of RJ.

So in the end, I think you'd see PA with a mostly (or all) Airbus narrowbody fleet, and a mostly (or all) Boeing widebody fleet. They were into fleet simplificon towards the end. I think they would have continued that trend.

Your fleet description of a surviving Pan American with proper management sounds like what the United Airlines fleet became today, with A320 Family planes for the majority of domestic routes and the widebodies you mentioned for international routes.  Smile Pan Am would have been a lead customer for the 787-9 to replace the 767-300(ER) planes from 2010 on.
 
N77014
Topic Author
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:10 am

Quoting Ewrw4co (Reply 42):
Quoting Flight209 (Reply 3):
N77014, I suppose you're assuming an alternate history in which PA (a) did not sell its LHR and (IIRC) South American route authorities to UA, (b) did not sell most of its other European route authorities to DL, and (c) was able to strengthen its ties to Airbus beyond the A300 and A310 and a stillborn A320 order

Only problem with this is N77014 flies as CO 777.

An aircraft I've had the pleasure of flight deck observation time on.
A new life awaits you in the Off-World Colonies...
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1576
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 19):
A330-200 for SFO- KIX, ICN, NRT, and NRT -SIN, BKK, MNL, HKG

A340-600 for LAX-HKG, NRT, ICN, SYD, AKL, MEL

The 747 was PAN AM's baby..there is no way on this earth PAN AM would not be flying 747's. We can fantasize all we want, but that fact I would bet the farm on. Remember they flew 747's on routes for years that should have "right Sized" to more L1011's or they should have kept the NA DC10's. (swapped to AA for more 747s!)

Quoting Clipper707 (Reply 34):
You Can't beat the experience---------------PAN AM

Back in its' prime years, you couildn't beat the experience. They were the best well into the mid-late 70's.

Some of us remember the photo from the news (it was in their 1979 Annual Report) of the PAN AM 747 getting the last of the American's out of Teheran after the hostages had been taken in Nov.1979. Those that saw that 747 with the Blue meatball land at Teheran to get them knew they were safe once on her and outta there.
 
Siege2L
Posts: 114
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:59 pm

RE: If PanAm Lived...

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Clipper707 (Reply 34):
You Can't beat the experience---------------PAN AM

Long live the Clipper Water Witch!!! IAD - FRA, the best experience I've EVER had!!! And repeatedly seeing some of the same faces of the cabin crew on this very route was always welcoming and heart-warming  Smile
Flying higher than over your dreams...