AA388
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Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:15 am

Aound 1:30 pm my friend saw an airplane with one winglet land in MIA. Any ideas as to what airline/type?

-max
Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300,600, 717, 737-3,5,7,8,9, 747-400, 757-2, 767-300, 777-200
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:26 am

Co flew around a 737-500...ship 630 with one winglet for a while testing stuff but that was a few months ago so I'm thinking it wasn't them.
Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:28 am

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 1):
ship 630 with one winglet for a while testing stuff

I might also add that it was during testing so,it wasn't doing commercial service...and had an "experimental" sticker placed by the entrance doors in front.

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
AA388
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:54 am

All he remebers is that it had one winglet.

-max
Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300,600, 717, 737-3,5,7,8,9, 747-400, 757-2, 767-300, 777-200
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:58 am

ah huh, or maybe some other airline or private charter doing the same testing.. just trying to help.

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
jlbmedia
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:14 am

If one Winglet is damaged, is the aircraft legally able to stay in service with one winglet removed? Or is the aircraft O.O.S. until it is replaced? John.
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Amazonphil
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:24 am

Can't be damaged in Commercial service...either both on and airworthy or none on..as was in the past.

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
extspotter
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:36 am

Not neccessarily, it is possible to keep an aircraft in service with one winglet as it does not affect the safety of the aircraft, however, this should only be used if the aircraft needs to go back to base or whatever to repair the winglet.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting Jlbmedia (Reply 5):
If one Winglet is damaged, is the aircraft legally able to stay in service with one winglet removed? Or is the aircraft O.O.S. until it is replaced?

Depends on which aircraft.

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 6):
Can't be damaged in Commercial service...either both on and airworthy or none on..as was in the past.



Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 7):
Not neccessarily, it is possible to keep an aircraft in service with one winglet as it does not affect the safety of the aircraft, however, this should only be used if the aircraft needs to go back to base or whatever to repair the winglet.

Airbus can do revenue service without a winglet. Boeing can't. Not sure about Douglas, Embraer, or Bombardier.

All can do a non-revenue ferry flight without the winglet to get home to base for repairs.

Tom.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Airbus can do revenue service without a winglet. Boeing can't. Not sure about Douglas, Embraer, or Bombardier.

In the case of the A318/319/320/321 (and A300-600 and A310-300) it's technically a wing fence and not a winglet, and yes they can be flown with just one. There are a few A.net photos of A320s etc. with just one fence/winglet, probably after one was damaged and had to be removed for repairs.
 
xtoler
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:43 am

I just figured because the airlines are having money woes, they can only buy one winglet at a time. Quoting something from Jeff Foxworthy, "Four more payments and this tattoo is mine!"

Just kidding. I'm not sure how it would feel to fly with only one winglet, but I can imagine, if the a/c has to be ferried somewhere it can be flyable. I'm guessing it would run along the same rules as having to ferry a plane with landing gear not being able to retract or for that matter flaps not retracting.

BTW, anyone have any idea what the deal was with the A380 flying around without it's winglets?
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Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 10):
BTW, anyone have any idea what the deal was with the A380 flying around without it's winglets?

It hit a wall with one winglet while taxiing at BKK during a demonstration trip to Asia and damaged one winglet, so they removed them both to avoid delaying the trip.
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 7):
Not neccessarily, it is possible to keep an aircraft in service with one winglet as it does not affect the safety of the aircraft, however, this should only be used if the aircraft needs to go back to base or whatever to repair the winglet.

But it would affect the payload and range. I doubt a 757 would be sent across the Atlantic with just one winglet.
 
bok269
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Boeing can't.

744s have flown on one winglet several times.


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tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 10):
I'm not sure how it would feel to fly with only one winglet, but I can imagine, if the a/c has to be ferried somewhere it can be flyable.

On a 737, you pick up the following restrictions if you are missing a winglet:
-daylight flight only
-max airspeed 300 knots/0.82 M
-avoid turbulence and abrupt control inputs
-avoid flight in icing conditions
-Max crosswind for takeoff/landing is 15 knots
-Cat I landing only
-Reduce all performance limited weights by 15,000 lbs
-Increase trip fuel by 15%
-Regulatory approval required for ferry flight

Tom.
 
earlynff
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 14):
-Increase trip fuel by 15%

that is quite a bit!

MEL for B744 says: trip fuel increase 2.5% for one missing, two missing not allowed.
 
AA388
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 15):
MEL for B744 says: trip fuel increase 2.5% for one missing, two missing not allowed.

How important are the 744 winglets? I though they were for ascthetics(sp) purposes.
And how about the 744D? Isnt that just a 744 without winglets?


-max
Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300,600, 717, 737-3,5,7,8,9, 747-400, 757-2, 767-300, 777-200
 
earlynff
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
How important are the 744 winglets?

they reduce induced drag (wing tip vortexes) and by that reduce fuel flow.

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
And how about the 744D

don´t know about these, who flies them? Only know about the dreamlifter, where they removed the winglets (for whatever problems they experienced)
 
AA388
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:53 am

I think that JL and ANA fly them on domestic routes in Japan. I think those are it though. And I know what winglets do I was wondereing if the 744 winglets were for decoration like the A340s. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-max
Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300,600, 717, 737-3,5,7,8,9, 747-400, 757-2, 767-300, 777-200
 
earlynff
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting AA388 (Reply 18):
I was wondereing if the 744 winglets were for decoration like the A340s.

I think the engineers didn´t have that in mind
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 15):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 14):
-Increase trip fuel by 15%

that is quite a bit!

MEL for B744 says: trip fuel increase 2.5% for one missing, two missing not allowed.

It's a bit of a different situation. MEL dispatch on the 747 is for revenue service and it doesn't come with any other restrictions...you're just carrying extra fuel to cover the increased drag. For the 737 you're into a non-revenue ferry flight with a bunch of other restrictions. It's not that drag went up by 15% (not even close) but, given all the other restrictions, you need to pad your reserves up to cover your butt.

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 19):
Quoting AA388 (Reply 18):
I was wondereing if the 744 winglets were for decoration like the A340s.

I think the engineers didn´t have that in mind

The engineers on the 747-400 were directed to make the winglet easily removable so that they could pull it at any time...if it paid for its own weight it was acceptable, if it had a benefit that was great (but not expected). The winglets on the 747, MD-11, and fences on older Airbii do have some positive benefit but they're more branding than anything else because they're very very small relative to their wings.

Tom.
 
bok269
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
I though they were for ascthetics(sp) purposes.

They are for more than just show. They would be very heavy decorations with very minimal impact (vs. a livery which is advertising for an airline).
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BreninTW
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:38 pm

Quoting EarlyNFF (Reply 17):
Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
And how about the 744D

don´t know about these, who flies them?

The 744D are specially modified for domestic ops in Japan -- I believe they have beefed-up landing gear and other mods. They can be converted to pretty much standard 744s by adding winglets.

The winglets were removed because on flights as short as the ones they're used on, the winglets actually reduce the overall performance of the A/C due to their weight. It's only on longer flights that the winglets result in reduced fuel-burn sufficient to offset their added weight.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting AA388 (Reply 16):
And how about the 744D? Isnt that just a 744 without winglets?

The JL and NH 747-400Ds also lack the extended wingspan to which the winglets are attached, so the -400Ds have the same 195 ft. 8 in. wingspan as all earlier 747s, almost 16 feet less than the 211 ft. 5 in. wingspan of the standard -400 with winglets. No need to carry the extra weight around on 1 to 2 hour flights. It's possible to modify the -400Ds into standard -400s by adding the wingtip extensions and winglets should anyone ever want to operate them on longhaul routes.
 
tribird1011
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:53 pm

As said before, some aircraft are allowed to fly revenue service with a winglet missing (subject to certain restrictions- B744, A340 possibly A330, and the smaller Airbuses)

The Boeings (737/757) not sure if they're allowed revenue flight - but are allowed ferry flight to get to a maintenance base (again subject to restrictions)

As far as the MD-11, i think I've read somewhere that without a winglet, it is effectively grounded - either it must be repaired/replaced where it's at, or remove the second winglet for a maintenance ferry flight to a repair base. Can anyone confirm this?
 
theginge
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RE: Aircraft With Only One Winglet In MIA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:53 pm

I know of an airbus A320 that has flown around in revenue service for over a week with only one winglet. The airbus A320 series can fly with one winglet in revenue service but there is a slight performance penalty as it uses a bit more fuel.