kaitak
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The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:33 am

Good evening to you all!

Well, here's another bout of Irish aviation, to avoid the danger of withdrawal symtoms!

More routes (FR), more problems (US Immigration), more protests (Shannon) and sod all in the way government action (so what's new!). Well, what do we have to look forward to ...

The government has imposed a deadline for the acceptance of a new routes package for SNN, so hopefully something will happen there. I know, from my own involvement with the JER-LHR route, that there is a lot of concern about the loss of the connection - and connectivity, but I hope that if they can get either CDG or AMS, it will be seen for what it is - even better than LHR.

Thinking over the whole situation today, independently of the new thread, it just beggars belief how badly this was handled at govt level. Sure, we can look at it from the perspective of cold hearted economists, but they had kept a share with the objective of protecting routes and they fluffed things completely; it's not hard to appreciate the anger in the west and even if - as I genuinely hope - they do get a link to a major hub, there will still be a lot of residual anger. Going forward, lessons need to be learned. It's more than just Aer Lingus; it's the whole of air transport policy - develop an interest, particularly as we may be heading into an economic downturn - see aviation as a vital contributor to growth, growth which can - through interest policies - be maximised.

October looks like being a very interesting month for airliner orders, with BA, TG and EK on course for orders which could, together top $40 BILLION. Great, so what does this have to do with Irish aviation. Well, the A350 is in with a good shout at TG and EK, possibly BA too; I know EI has already chosen it and while it is a highly respected carrier internationally, it does no harm to have big guns backing the A350 too.

Things have been a bit quiet on the EI/FR front recently, but I guess that they will remain so until the FR appeal comes to the ECJ. Plenty of time for both sides to plan their next moves, but I think FR has the more wriggle room ... Incidentally, Michael Cawley was interviewed recently (today, I think) and he said it was most unlikely that FR would set up a long haul operation (which was never in doubt anyway - it's MO'L's intentions we're interested in.)

So, here we go again folks; line up, yellow priority passes to the front! We're walking, we're walking ...
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:39 am

Another good intro Kaitak .

Just saw the mistaken runway report on RTE news. I wonder if they will change the lights on the hotel building !!! Could have been a very bad situation . For anyones that interested the movie ''The Terminal'' is on RTE1 now !!!
 
rineanna
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:46 am

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
it just beggars belief how badly this was handled at govt level.

On that note, I've always wondered would it be possible to have a junior minister at the Dept. of Transport with special responsibility for Aviation and Aviation policy. It's such a crucial and controversial section of the transport portfolio, and with all the delays and problems encountered with the various infrastructure, I just feel that it mighten't be a bad idea. It would be interesting to hear others opinion on the idea.
 
extspotter
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:48 am

The terminal is such rubbish, like UA would have crew who don't want to kill you with their dagger eyes.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:52 am

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 3):
The terminal is such rubbish, like UA would have crew who don't want to kill you with their dagger eyes.
LOL...I actually like UA !! Never had a problem with them . Where was the movie made??? Dont recognise the building??

[Edited 2007-09-19 22:52:56]
 
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shamrock350
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
Well, the A350 is in with a good shout at TG and EK, possibly BA too; I know EI has already chosen it and while it is a highly respected carrier internationally, it does no harm to have big guns backing the A350 too.

I'm hoping for some big A350 orders! I really hope BA order it but I think the 787 is more likely especially if the 787-10 is included.

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
Michael Cawley was interviewed recently (today, I think) and he said it was most unlikely that FR would set up a long haul operation (which was never in doubt anyway - it's MO'L's intentions we're interested in.)

Aer Lingus has just enough time to sort out fleet, product and keep their fares as competitive as possible before MyWay starts however when you dont know what form your competitor is going to take, its hard to compete. All Aer Lingus and other airlines can do is continue there long term plans. Just because FR worked out with MO'L doesn't mean MyWay will.

I just want EI to sort out that product, they are getting there just slowly!
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 5):
I'm hoping for some big A350 orders! I really hope BA order it but I think the 787 is more likely especially if the 787-10 is included.

I would like to see A350 and A380 orders!! Fingers crossed. The BA livery would look class on an A380 . Not to mention the innovations they could have inside it and features. The black and white picture frames that they have on the bulk heads would look really nice with some British themes inside.
 
kaitak
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 2):
On that note, I've always wondered would it be possible to have a junior minister at the Dept. of Transport with special responsibility for Aviation and Aviation policy. It's such a crucial and controversial section of the transport portfolio, and with all the delays and problems encountered with the various infrastructure, I just feel that it mighten't be a bad idea. It would be interesting to hear others opinion on the idea.

I think that would be a very good idea. The odd thing is that one of the arguments against this is that aviation needs to be the responsibility of a minister at the cabinet table. I agree that there should be a minister with responsibility for managing day to day aviation issues - an "enforcer" if you wish. However, down through the years, if you look at the set up of govt departments over the last 20-25 years, it has almost never been in the same place twice (well, consecutively). Yes, there was a Department of Transport under Brennan, Geoghegan-Quinn and Cowen, then it became Public Enterprise under Mary O'Rourke, now it's back to transport again, but really, the make-up of any department is far LESS important than the interest and the drive of those charged with responsibility for it. If the minister is good and dedicated, you can give him any title you want, "Minister for Silly Walks with special responsibility for aviation" and it will work.

The role of the civil service is of crucial importance, but really, the attitude and drive at govt level is much moreso. Like an army, if the generals don't have the vision or direction, you can't expect the troops to be motivated; that's what we face. The interest simply isn't there at govt level and the only way to address this is to focus on it. Sure, there may be an element of obstructionism at civil service level, but that can be addressed with the appropriate will.

To borrow another quote from the wonderful Yes Minister, it's often a battle between the political will and the administrative won't. Unfortunately, in Ireland, it's a combination of the administrative won't and the political "can't be bothered".
 
extspotter
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:21 am

I thought it was meant to be set in O'hare, american people think it sounds exotic and foreign because it has a piece of punctuation they've never seen before.

*putting up flaming shield*
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 8):
I thought it was meant to be set in O'hare, american people think it sounds exotic and foreign because it has a piece of punctuation they've never seen before.

*putting up flaming shield*

LOL...your right though it is crap. 25 mins and I switched back to Sky News lol....
 
rineanna
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 8):
I thought it was meant to be set in O'hare,

It's meant to be JFK, I think. The terminal was constructed in a Hangar at Palmdale Regional airport, with the ramp shots and others shot at Mirabel airport in Toronto. According to Wikipedia, Star Alliance were a major sponsor of the film with UA providing the 747.

Some interesting trivia if anyone's interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Terminal#Filming_locations

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 7):
the make-up of any department is far LESS important than the interest and the drive of those charged with responsibility for it

That's it in a nutshell. What the Transport portfolio needs (I suppose even more than a dedicated junior minister for Aviation) is someone with fresh ideas and enthusiasm for the post. It just seems to me that Dempsey and certain other Ministers are just "portfolio hopping", so to speak; just being moved from Ministerial post to Ministerial post in order to keep them in cabinet without any real emphasis on their ability to do the job in question. This may seem harsh, but none of them have done anything to convince me otherwise. I'd loved to have seen some of the backbenchers (aswell as Lenihan) brought up to the front-line. Fresh ideas and enthusiasm/drive is badly in need.
 
aerarann
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:35 am

OA260,

The Monarch SFB service operates via SNN, However, The crew often go "Out Of Hours" conveniently and skip SNN and go straight to DUB!!!
 
iRISH251
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 10):
It's meant to be JFK, I think. The terminal was constructed in a Hangar at Palmdale Regional airport, with the ramp shots and others shot at Mirabel airport in Toronto. According to Wikipedia, Star Alliance were a major sponsor of the film with UA providing the 747.

You mean Mirabel in Montreal. There were various Air Transat aircraft in the ramp scenes, including some of their TriStars which were being withdrawn around the time the movie was made.
 
tonymctigue
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:33 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
The government has imposed a deadline for the acceptance of a new routes package for SNN, so hopefully something will happen there. I know, from my own involvement with the JER-LHR route, that there is a lot of concern about the loss of the connection - and connectivity, but I hope that if they can get either CDG or AMS, it will be seen for what it is - even better than LHR.

Unfortunately Kaitak, I believe even if SNN gets connections to CDG or AMS but not LHR (which I believe is not bad thing giving that LHR is nearly as much a mess as DUB) I'm sure we will continue to hear the Atlantic Connectivity Alliance saying it is not enough & that nothing less than 4 dailies to LHR will do.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
For anyones that interested the movie ''The Terminal'' is on RTE1 now !!!

I saw it last night.

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 2):
On that note, I've always wondered would it be possible to have a junior minister at the Dept. of Transport with special responsibility for Aviation and Aviation policy. It's such a crucial and controversial section of the transport portfolio, and with all the delays and problems encountered with the various infrastructure, I just feel that it mighten't be a bad idea. It would be interesting to hear others opinion on the idea.

That would be a sensible thing to do i.e. its never going to happen.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
rineanna
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting Irish251 (Reply 12):
You mean Mirabel in Montreal

Yes, sorry, Montreal.

Quoting Tonymctigue (Reply 13):
i.e. its never going to happen.

That's why it's so frustrating! We need a new political party methinks!!
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:33 pm

BMI almost a certainty for SNN-LHR according to what i've been hearing....
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 15):
BMI almost a certainty for SNN-LHR according to what i've been hearing....

Same here but I think SNN is guaranteeing to much in order to win them over. I hope it dosen't come back and bite them on the arse.
John Hancock
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:40 pm

Agreed smokey, but anything has to better than leaving themselves open to being hostage to Ryanair's every whim.
 
seanjohn
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:41 pm

Often wondered if you bite people on the arse, or in the arse??
Be interesting to see BMI at Shannon. I wonder will their service be any better than it is on the Dublin route? Oops better be careful or I will have OA260 after me!!!!!  Wink

Happy landings
J
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 18):
I wonder will their service be any better than it is on the Dublin route? Oops better be careful or I will have OA260 after me!!!!!

LOL....You must just be on the wrong flights MR!!!! Full BMI TR coming up on the 5th October!!! lol....

With regards SNN-LHR BMI are going to get a very good deal if as is expected they finally sign on the dotted line. They have been offered a very attractive deal and would be in a win win situation. The amount that SNN is offering will be far out weighed by the benefits gained by SNN.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:22 pm

On the Border protection facility, I've noted from Business Ireland which has some lovely pictures of Declan Collier in very artistic poses but not of Dublin Airport which is pretty much what the article is about, anyway as I was saying I took a quick skim through the article (will read it fully later when I have some time) and I note the T2 will not be the new home to US flights, the DAA planning

Quote:
an expansion of the existing Pier B, with a unique Customs and Border Protection (CBP) facility to handle their US flights. This will mean passengers can clear customs and immigration this side of the Atlantic and by the time they reach the US they will be treated like a domestic flight.
John Hancock
 
al2637
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:22 pm

Ryanair in talks about opening SNN-AMS

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0920/ryanair.html
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 21):
Ryanair in talks about opening SNN-AMS

Would be a waste of time. No thru check and interline to KLM's network. This would benefit very few. A Cityjet/KLM service would be far more desirable. Alot of businessmen want to connect to KLM's Asian/Middle East network.
 
EIDAA
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 5):
before MyWay starts

This must be another one I missed... when did MOL mention MyWay? I know he talked about a long haul operation but didn't know he had already named it. Funny, because the company I work for has an aircraft on lease with My Way down in Italy.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 7):
"Minister for Silly Walks with special responsibility for aviation"

Love Monty Python... thanks for the laugh!
Most Flown:- G-BUVA (20 Flights), EI-DEB (12 Flights), EI-JFK (11 Flights)
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:03 pm

SNN-AMS would be a good performer, but I wonder who is Ryanair trying to warn or damage? EI with the ORK-AMS service or scare off cityjet / AF from SNN?

If Cityjet / AF do set up shop in SNN, I think they would be better considering an AMS route rather than CDG.

CDG will have to contend with the FR service to BVA, which will take most if not all of the leisure traffic. Even with Connecting pax, you still need a certain amount of O&D pax to rip off with high fares to balance out the lower yield connecting traffic.

At least with AMS, Cityjet would have that market to itself.
 
jwmd123
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:27 pm

just seen that between today and tomorrow there are 43 departures to the 3 airports in Paris, CDG, BVA and LBG.

Anyone spotting out a DUB either today or tomorrow should see some unsual visitors to DUB.
 
al2637
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:32 pm

I think if FR were to start one route to AMS, more would follow. EI have a monopoly on the DUB-AMS route, 5 times a day, with frequent A321 roations. It really does have a lot of traffic, and not all that low fares. FR could clean up here, and trash EI's yields on the route.

You'd also have to wonder if EI were to reduce frequency, so as to miss the KL departure banks at AMS, would KL/WX start operating the route with smaller aircraft? Where would this leave EI?
 
dstc47
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:38 pm

Stories in the Northern Ireland media today suggest that a rail link to Belfast International might be on the cards.

There is, apparently, a disused rail line close by which could be adapted. However, the story seems to suggest this as a wholly private sector initiative and it would seem to me that traffic volumes for an airport express type of operation at Belfast are just not there. Without a good deal of public investment it is hard to see this as viable.

(Of course the new EI crew based there, with their much lower salaries, might be users.)
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:38 pm

There is already talk of WX operating DUB-AMS at high frequency, but KL seem to be extremely unwilling to give up the EI codeshare agreement, even if by getting WX to operate the route, it would be keeping the revenue in the AF/KLM family.

In fact, they just expanded the EI arrangement to BFS!
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:51 pm

Was just on Pe@rson's FR routes thread and Teahan made an interesting contribution:

"An interesting Ryanair news day.

- In addition to the SNN-AMS talk, SNN-Paris BVA will apparently go up to 2x daily next summer. That's the same number of frequencies as DUB-BVA this summer. "

I think it is obvious then who FR are warning to stay out of SNN.....
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 24):
If Cityjet / AF do set up shop in SNN, I think they would be better considering an AMS route rather than CDG

Yes AMS is alot easier to transit through.

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 26):
if EI were to reduce frequency, so as to miss the KL departure banks at AMS, would KL/WX start operating the route with smaller aircraft? Where would this leave EI?

I doubt EI would do this. They would loose alot of revenue. EI pick alot of KLM bound traffic on this route. If EI loose this then FR would be better to take over the route as a point to point service.
 
al2637
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 30):
I doubt EI would do this. They would loose alot of revenue. EI pick alot of KLM bound traffic on this route. If EI loose this then FR would be better to take over the route as a point to point service.

I guess my point is that if EI need to reduce capacity on the route (due to competition from FR), and not having anything smaller than an A320, the only other option with be for a frequency hit. Anyway, it's all hypothetical at this point of time... but hopefully EI get some competition on AMS soon enough!!!
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 31):
I guess my point is that if EI need to reduce capacity on the route (due to competition from FR), and not having anything smaller than an A320, the only other option with be for a frequency hit. Anyway, it's all hypothetical at this point of time... but hopefully EI get some competition on AMS soon enough!!!

Im all for competition and would actually love to see a KLM 737 into Dublin. I dont think id like to see any LCC replace a carrier that offers codeshares and the ability to connect with thru check in and fares to a global network. If EI did decide to go off the route then id hope KLM would at least send in a regional jet at least twice a day.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 23):
This must be another one I missed... when did MOL mention MyWay? I know he talked about a long haul operation but didn't know he had already named it. Funny, because the company I work for has an aircraft on lease with My Way down in Italy.

Just the nickname it got on this thread for his new airline. If he failed in getting Aer Lingus he would start this new long-haul airline and do it his way and that's where the name "MyWay" came from.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:02 am

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0920/ryanair.html

Quote:
Ryanair '50-50' on new Aer Lingus move
Thursday, 20 September 2007 14:11
Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary has told shareholders the airline is looking at its legal options after Aer Lingus refused a second request for a meeting of shareholders to discuss the withdrawal of the Shannon-Heathrow route.

Aer Lingus has claimed Ryanair, which has a 29.4% stake, is trying to 'interfere with and frustrate' its commercial performance. At Ryanair's AGM this morning, Mr O'Leary accused Aer Lingus directors of breaching their statutory obligations towards their largest shareholder.

'We're amazed that the board of directors of Aer Lingus would be in breach of Irish company law but we will have to decide ourselves whether we take this further, and I think it's a 50-50 call', Mr O'Leary said.

'We may not take it any further, or we may well decide to hold the EGM ourselves, a decision we'll take in the next week or two', he added.

He also told shareholders Ryanair planned further expansion of services from Shannon, and was in talks with Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport about whether a viable route could be launched.

Mr O'Leary also said Ryanair was in discussions with five countries - former Soviet republics or North African states outside Morocco - about new routes.

Mr O'Leary also told shareholders Ryanair was leaving its profit outlook for the current financial year unchanged, with profit growth of 10% and winter yields, or average fares, falling by 5% to 10%.

Ryanair has also confirmed that it has filed judicial review proceedings this week challenging An Bord Pleanála's decision to grant planning permission for the second terminal at Dublin airport.
John Hancock
 
Bramble
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 2):
I've always wondered would it be possible to have a junior minister at the Dept. of Transport with special responsibility for Aviation and Aviation policy.



Quoting Rineanna (Reply 10):
......................... It just seems to me that Dempsey and certain other Ministers are just "portfolio hopping..........................without any real emphasis on their ability to do the job in question....... but none of them have done anything to convince me otherwise........................Fresh ideas and enthusiasm/drive is badly in need.

In my opinion the junior ministries as just a way to reward loyal soldiers of destiny. Can you see Bev Flynn (she will be there soon unfortunately)actually producing a coherent aviation policy rather than looking after her cronies in Mayo, maybe Knock will get a huge boost under Bev!!!!!!

Aviation does need dedicated civil servants to help mould a coherent policy incorporating all airlines flying in/out of the country,not just in relation to EI.

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 5):
I just want EI to sort out that product, they are getting there just slowly!

Join the queue behind me. To be honest its part of the reason I prefer to operate shorthaul mostly.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting Bramble (Reply 35):
Join the queue behind me. To be honest its part of the reason I prefer to operate shorthaul mostly.

Here's an interesting review about Aer Lingus Premier class.

Quote:
Premier Class JFK-DUB return. Neither trip was the newer planes however service excellent. Seats comfortable but did not go flat. The entertainment system could use upgrading for business class. Crew could have been a little more attentive during the middle of the flight as I had to get up and ask for a drink. they should have walked the cabin rather than disappearing. Food excellent. Menu was very good. I would suggest avoiding the 5pm JFK departure. It is my understanding that this flight has a habit of being cancelled (ours was as well). A little updating and training and Aer Lingus could be top notch rather than just coming very close.


http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/aer_ling.htm
 
EIDAA
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 33):
Just the nickname it got on this thread for his new airline. If he failed in getting Aer Lingus he would start this new long-haul airline and do it his way and that's where the name "MyWay" came from.

Thanks
Most Flown:- G-BUVA (20 Flights), EI-DEB (12 Flights), EI-JFK (11 Flights)
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 34):
former Soviet republics or North African states outside Morocco - about new routes.

I cant wait til the 1C flights DUB-EVN and DUB-TBS start LOL.....
 
kaitak
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:37 am

Well, MO'L is certainly having a busy day today, between speculation about SNN (possibly also DUB-) AMS and now, speculation that he may take legal action against EI over the refusal to hold an EGM:

http://www.kiplinger.com/apnews/XmlStoryResult.php?storyid=453711

I think a route to/from AMS would be a signal to EI that things are going to be made a lot harder for it. I could see FR building up quite a business from AMS, with MAD certainly likely to be served, possibly other "principal" airports like WAW and PRG; with all the likely growth at AMS, it will probably become congested (I was nearly going to write "clogged", but stopped just in time!) unless there is significant growth planned there.

Of course, it's early days yet; one of the first thoughts that came to mind when I heard speculation about SNN-AMS is that it was a shot across the bows to Cityjet.

However, I think the long term message is just as interesting; AMS is, of course, a "principal" airport, unlike BVA, HHN and CRL ... Stepping into a market like this is just as clear a message to EI as the EGM and legal action that the boa's coils are continuing to wrap themselves around the green and slender frame of EI ... A long haul operation, "My Way" or whatever he calls it, is going to be the next step.

Basically, the message from FR to EI is: "One way or another, as long as it takes, make it as hard or as convoluted as you want and put whatever obstacles you want in the may, you will be ours. If we can't buy you, we'll break you". I know that sounds like a very grim prognosis, but that's how it looks to me now. EI needs to think of how it's going to counter this, if it can. It needs more than legal obstacles to keep FR at bay ..
 
kaitak
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:51 am

Incidentally, saw a thread just started on the forthcoming Routes conference, starting in Stockholm on Sunday next.

http://www.worldroutesstockholm.com/...tners/supporting-organisations.php

I wonder just how proactive the DAA will be this year, given that they have stopped their incentive program for new routes? It would be a terrible pity to miss the chance to develop new routes, particularly with O/S starting next Summer.

To my mind, this is a perfect example of where proactive ministerial action would help; for the DAA to do this, without any possible fear of interference at govt level is, to me, unacceptable. I would like to see the govt prodding the DAA to develop new routes in certain new markets and to set objectives for them to achieve, in terms of market access. Again, I go back to what Martin Cullen said when he was minister: "DUB is part of the state's critical infrastructure"*, so how can they stand by while important opportunities to develop new markets are missed, and wilfully so?

The message should get through: the DAA's continuation as the sole operator of Dublin Airport is dependant on its ability to develop new markets and new routes to critically important regions for trade. If it can't do that, we'll find someone who can, or find a management team for the DAA which can achieve this.


(*This will probably go down on a list of unfulfilled objectives, along with "we kept 25% of EI, so we could protect regional access to LHR).
 
tonymctigue
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:27 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 15):
BMI almost a certainty for SNN-LHR according to what i've been hearing....

That's good news. Hopefully we can get confirmation of this soon.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 16):
Same here but I think SNN is guaranteeing to much in order to win them over. I hope it dosen't come back and bite them on the arse.

Lets hope it all works out. The Atlantic Connectivity Alliance really do need to throw their weight behind BMI if they do start SNN-LHR & book as many pax with BMI as they claim they do with EI.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 19):
With regards SNN-LHR BMI are going to get a very good deal if as is expected they finally sign on the dotted line. They have been offered a very attractive deal and would be in a win win situation. The amount that SNN is offering will be far out weighed by the benefits gained by SNN.

I'm sure that at the moment the SAA is just focused on getting a replacement airline on the route & holding onto them long enough to convince that airline that the route is profitable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this incentive deal on offer for five years only?

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 21):
Ryanair in talks about opening SNN-AMS

I doubt this will happen but if it does it is clearly as other members have already pointed out it is an obvious scaring tatic to discourage WX/AF from entering SNN. If FR were to start AMS, would it not be better to do it from DUB? Realistically, the European routes from SNN have not been the most successful. If AMS was operated by WX/AF, at least it would attract leisure travellers as well as pax wanting to make connections, giving it a bigger pool to draw from & better chance of succeeding. On another note, didn't Skynet operate SNN-AMS before they went bust? If they did, where would one get LF stats?
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
tonymctigue
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 29):
In addition to the SNN-AMS talk, SNN-Paris BVA will apparently go up to 2x daily next summer. That's the same number of frequencies as DUB-BVA this summer. "

SNN-BVA must be doing all right so. Its good to hear at least one of FR's European services are doing well out of SNN seing as so many that were introduced when FR set up shop at SNN have since been cut or made seasonal. As much giving out we do about FR, than god for SNN's sake they are there.

MOL really does seem to be in a troublesome mood today. He's causing trouble for EI, the DAA & even all over the rest of Europe including North Africa & Russia. Maybe it's just because it is that time of the year when FR have their AGM or maybe the few cold days we had earlier in the weeks have spurned him to start putting his Christmas list together.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
extspotter
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:16 am

He is doing what he does best, whinging his smug face off.

If smug could be turned into electricity, MO'L would be the only power plant the world would ever need.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
EISHN
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:21 am

Does any lucky sod have a ticket to Paris for tomorrow?
And any word on N272WA since his excursion into the unknown that is Bordeaux last week?
St. Flannan/ Fhlanain- She took off to find the footlights, And I took off for the sky
 
tonymctigue
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting EXTspotter (Reply 43):
He is doing what he does best, whinging his smug face off.

If smug could be turned into electricity, MO'L would be the only power plant the world would ever need.

You'd be in line for a Nobel prize if you could figure out how to harness that power. Maybe you could start with all the hot air he expels & take it from there.

Seriously though, if MOL does decide to enter AMS it doesn't bode well for other flag carriers around Europe. We are all well aware of the dumbing down of EI's short haul product because they find themselves in the unfortunate position of being bedfellows with FR at DUB whereas most of the other European full service airlines have managed to avoid direct competition with FR because of course FR generally concentrate on serving under used airports & have up until now avoided the major hub airports. However, there seems to be a recent change of heart within the FR board room that has seen them enter some of the larger airports such as setting up a base at MAD. If they do indeed enter AMS, this will be a major encroachment into the full service carriers' territory & I'm sure it won't be too well recieved. Obviously FR won't be able to give away seats quite as cheaply on flights to & from airports such as AMS but you can be sure that they would still be able to undercut the other flag carriers.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
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OA260
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:37 am

Quoting EISHN (Reply 44):
Does any lucky sod have a ticket to Paris for tomorrow?

A few weeks back the packages were Eur 899 then they reduced them to Eur 299 !!! Apparantly due to a larger AC being put on !!!! Just shows you what a ripp off it was before !!!
 
extspotter
Posts: 617
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:21 am

It is kinda naughty, but fairplay to them, if they can sell them at that price. Its not uncommon as you probably know.

I hope that we get better, last saturday was just unbearable. Everyone was playing awful apart from Jason Robinson, who of course has to injure his leg.

I think Barkley and Wilkinson are back though. I hope it helps.

Alex, praying to the rugby god in EXT.
AF BE BY FR MV PD SZ U2 VZ DHC6, 8-3/4Q, 732/8, 763ER, A319, A380
 
kaitak
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:19 pm

New ORK-BTS route this winter, to be operated by Sky Europe:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishex...qqa=ireland-qqqid=43231-qqqx=1.asp
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The View From The 41st Thread: More Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting Tonymctigue (Reply 41):



Quoting Tonymctigue (Reply 41):
On another note, didn't Skynet operate SNN-AMS before they went bust? If they did, where would one get LF stats?

Tony, I cant provide a source for LF stats, but they werent all that good to be honest. I used the flight roughly every two weeks and it was empty except at Bank Holidays. There was virtually no marketing, especially in Holland, and the attitide of the airline's management was "the AMS-SVO pays the bills". I heard since from others that loads improved in the later months of the flight, but I had already switched back to EI at that stage.

They didnt make things very easy on themselves: no GDS presence, useless marketing, high fares (paying 220 euro when only 5 seats on a 737-400 are occupied is not acceptable!) and no good marketing of the website (which was pretty much the only way to book). In the first couple of months of operations, the website would not accept credit cards, there was no sales desk in AMS, and phone calls made to their HQ from Holland yielded the advise "you could get a relative back home to drive to our offices in Shannon to pay and buy your ticket and it could be posted over".

I admit, they got their act together on those fronts soon after, but it wasnt a great start!

What was the crying shame was that FR were packed solid every day on SNN-CRL, many of the pax having driven from Holland! The large Irish expat community there had never heard of Skynet!

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