Mikey711MN
Topic Author
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FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:11 pm

From the AirTran press release:

Quote:
AirTran Airways, a subsidiary of AirTran Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: AAI), today announced that it will be adding new, nonstop flights, beginning in December, between Tampa International Airport and: Logan International Airport in Boston, Mass.; Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport in Minnesota; Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport in Michigan and Pittsburgh International Airport in Pennsylvania.

AirTran Airways will offer the following nonstop flight options between Tampa and Boston, effective December 20:

Nonstop Service between Tampa and Boston

From To Flight Departs Arrives Frequency
Tampa Boston 883 2:25 5:25 Daily
p.m. p.m.
Boston Tampa 882 10:30 1:45 Daily
a.m. p.m.



AirTran Airways will offer the following nonstop flight options between Tampa and Minneapolis-St. Paul, effective January 8, 2008:

Nonstop Service between Tampa and Minneapolis-St. Paul

From To Flight Departs Arrives Frequency
Tampa Minneapolis- 781 4:30 7:00 Daily
St. Paul p.m. p.m.
Minneapolis- Tampa 780 11:30 3:50 Daily
St. Paul a.m. p.m.



AirTran Airways will offer the following nonstop flight options between Tampa and Detroit, effective February 14, 2008:

Nonstop Service between Tampa and Detroit

From To Flight Departs Arrives Frequency
Tampa Detroit 286 3:12 5:46 Daily
p.m. p.m.
Detroit Tampa 287 12:02 2:37 Daily
p.m. p.m.



AirTran Airways will offer the following nonstop flight options between Tampa and Pittsburgh, effective February 16, 2008:

Nonstop Service between Tampa and Pittsburgh

From To Flight Departs Arrives Frequency
Tampa Pittsburgh 809 5:50 8:15 Saturday
p.m. p.m.
Pittsburgh Tampa 808 2:50 5:15 Saturday
p.m. p.m.


Hmmm...TPA to both MSP and DTW?!? Surely that will garner some sort of response!

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
toltommy
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:14 pm

Darn, there goes my hopes for a return to DTW-FLL..... Looks like TPA is this years golden child.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:32 pm

Awesome! More air service at MSP!  hyper  Will FL operate TPA-MSP using the 717, 737, or both?
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Lexy
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 1):
Looks like TPA is this years golden child.

It should've been a given it would be a Florida city. LOL!
Nashville, Tennessee KBNA
 
MAH4546
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:55 pm

Leave it to AirTran to make a big deal about routes that, with the exception of TPA-MSP, aren't new at all.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 1):
Darn, there goes my hopes for a return to DTW-FLL.

It is returning. Don't know the date it re-starts, but it is there. FL 877/878.
a.
 
premobrimo
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:21 pm

Can't wait for a response from NW
Now You're Flying Smart.
 
iowaman
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:44 pm

Quoting Mikey711MN (Thread starter):
AirTran Airways



Quoting Mikey711MN (Thread starter):
more nonstop flight options



Quoting Mikey711MN (Thread starter):
Minneapolis-St. Paul



Quoting Mikey711MN (Thread starter):
effective January 8, 2008:

Northwest will hate those words.  Smile
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:22 pm

FL has flown DTW-TPA in the past. As well as NK who has operated that route for a while.

I don't think NW will be too concerned about competition on low-yield Florida leisure routes that already have substancial competition. Fares are already reasonable on these routes to begin with, but of course anyone with an airline can fill a route to Florida from the north during the winter.


Yawn.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:30 pm

Come on TPA-MEM, FLL-MEM, MDW-MEM and BWI-MEM. Take it to NW there.  mischievous   cool 
 
USPIT10L
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Leave it to AirTran to make a big deal about routes that, with the exception of TPA-MSP, aren't new at all.

airTran has not flown PITTPA nonstop before. Trust me. The only markets FL has served from PIT include ATL, MDW, FLL, LGA, MCO, and PHL. Too bad PIT travellers won't take advantage of the opportunity, they never have with FL. The only airline to most people here is still US Airways, despite WN's constant ads, especially during Pirate games. I always found those ads to be quite odd, as Delta is the official airline of the Pirates.
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DAYflyer
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:39 pm

Good news for FL, although I'm sure it will draw quite a bit of ire from NW and an increase in frequencies with a price match.
One Nation Under God
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:49 pm

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 8):
MEM. Take it to NW there

...a little too much of that, and watch NW take it (all) from there.

Would contend that it's only a matter of time until MEM gets down to about 30 destinations and 150 daily departures. I hear STL, RDU, BNA, and PIT have a support group for such.  Wink
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N908AW
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Mikey711MN (Thread starter):

Hmmm...TPA to both MSP and DTW?!? Surely that will garner some sort of response!

*dramatic chord* The plot thickens!

I was hoping for that...it's probably even easier for FL to do since SY is over at PIE...only *direct* competition comes from NW. What's interesting is how little presence NW has in TPA...when I was there seemed their only aircraft were DC-9s and A319s while everybody else had 757s!
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CitrusCritter
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
...a little too much of that, and watch NW take it (all) from there.

You know, I wish. If FL really wanted to stick it to NW, they could do it in MEM. NW keeps MEM around so they have a hub not up north. But if FL went in 100% determined (which they don't do of course, but for argument's sake), they could push NW out. MEM underperforms O&D for NW, and FL could stimulate a low-fare market. MEM is poorer than many cities its size, which is one reason it underperforms, so if FL went in with low fares, I think there is market stimulation to be had.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 13):
so if FL went in with low fares, I think there is market stimulation to be had.

Is it really worth it for them, though? NW would fight like crazy, and NW will win a fare war between the two any time.

And does FL really want to push legacies around with low fares? Arguably, they have a product that COULD exact a fare premium from passengers. They need to figure out if they want to be in the F9/B6 crowd or the SX/NK crowd. IMO you can't simultaneously be in both camps.

[Edited 2007-09-20 16:50:05]
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:48 pm

NW typically doesn't care too much when someone enters a low yield, leisure market. Their response is to simply price match. Considering NW significantly more capacity than FL as it is now anways.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
Would contend that it's only a matter of time until MEM gets down to about 30 destinations and 150 daily departures.

NW is not scaling back in MEM. It will be primarily status-quo, with some realignment of capacity when the CR9's & E75's make their way to MEM to right-size some CRJ-200 & DC-9 routes.

Quoting N908AW (Reply 12):
What's interesting is how little presence NW has in TPA...when I was there seemed their only aircraft were DC-9s and A319s while everybody else had 757s!

NW ramps up seasonally in TPA, along with RSW. During the summer is mostly DC-9's & A319/A320.
During the winter, NW adds several additional frequencies on DTW / MSP and bumps many up to 757's.

NW Feb. 2007 TPA Schedule:
DTW: 6 (5 - 752, 1 - A319/A320)
MSP: 4 (3 - 752, 1 - A320) all 757 on Saturdays
MEM: 3 (1 - D9S, 1 - D95, 1 - A319)
IND: 2 (2 - D9S)
FNT: 1 (1 - D9S)
Total - 16

NW Summer 2007 TPA Schedule:
DTW: 3 (2 - A320, 1 - 752)
MSP: 2 (2 - 752)
MEM: 2 (2 - D95)
IND: 1 (1 - D9S)
Total - 8
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
F9/B6 crowd or the SX/NK crowd

Well I think that is a legitimate question, and I'd argue there in the WN crowd -- in the middle. The question on MEM is whether it is worth it for NW to defend MEM to the last. It's not MSP. MEM is a place where low-cost stimulation can be had and NW is not as strong because of the weak O&D. FL could carve out its own market while taking some of NW's. And it would probably lead to a NW drawdown because MEM barely survives as it is.
 
B752OS
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):
I don't think NW will be too concerned about competition on low-yield Florida leisure routes that already have substancial competition. Fares are already reasonable on these routes to begin with, but of course anyone with an airline can fill a route to Florida from the north during the winter.

How do you figure there is substantial competition on MSP-TPA? MSP is a one airline dominated airport. If you were to say there is substantial competition on LGA-TPA, then I would agree.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 16):
FL could carve out its own market while taking some of NW's. And it would probably lead to a NW drawdown because MEM barely survives as it is.

I think that in the long run, FL could succeed at MEM (as I stated above, I don't think they have the fortitude or the money to fight NW off, but that's another story for another day). I am unsure, however, whether NW would really draw MEM down as much as you think. There are two things to keep in mind.

1) NW is great at flying big planes to small places. We talk about this all the time at airports like MBS or FAR, but 250 daily seats to BTR (for all of 23 daily passengers)? At all three hubs, NW makes money connecting passengers from small airports, and based on the number of seats the pour into these markets, I think we'd be completely justified in concluding that these passengers are more important to NW than to other legacies. FL isn't going to do anything to this traffic.

2) We periodically talk about yields being bad at MEM (they are compared to the other two hubs) but this is partially by design, as NW will route lower-yielding connecting passengers over its hub with the weakest local traffic. That purpose will be there regardless of what FL does, and given the gate situation at MEM, it probably won't be much.

MEM seems like another MDW to me. FL tried to go after the business fliers at MDW, and they failed (because of two entrenched legacies up the road). While they can (and I think will) certainly make inroads at MEM, I wonder if they'll ever get to the critical mass necessary to be a serious player for business traffic.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 17):
How do you figure there is substantial competition on MSP-TPA? MSP is a one airline dominated airport. If you were to say there is substantial competition on LGA-TPA, then I would agree.

Currently 2 airlines flying nonstop to Tampa NW-TPA, SX-PIE.
Over 12 airlines offer 1-stop connecting service, all with prices between $230-$250 r/t. There are no less than at least 30 viable 1-stop options on MSP-TPA
NW offers the lowest cost (although maybe by only as little as $1) in many instances - and nonstop too. Currently NW is cheaper than FL through MDW.
FL offering 1 seasonal flight is going to minimal impact on anything. FL is doing what it does best here - Florida.

Since it is a price sensitive market, the leisure travelers don't necessarily mind a connection to save a few bucks, hence why NW already prices this route competitively. FL isn't going to come in an offer $29 one-way fares, sorry.

MSP is not strangled by high fares on the majority of busy routes, unlike what everyone on A.net likes to believe. There is competition on many routes too as much of the routes have at least one other airline offering some form of nonstop service and pretty much everyone offers connections.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
MEM seems like another MDW to me. FL tried to go after the business fliers at MDW, and they failed (because of two entrenched legacies up the road). While they can (and I think will) certainly make inroads at MEM, I wonder if they'll ever get to the critical mass necessary to be a serious player for business traffic.

I agree with you Cubsrule. There is such a small pot of business travelers to begin with in MEM, and there is no way that FL could offer enough choices to make them a viable option. One-off routes business routes have not proven to be successful for FL. LCC's could siphon off leisure traffic at MEM, but the market is too small for anyone to make inroads and not get trashed by NW in the process.
 
iowaman
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 19):
MSP is not strangled by high fares on the majority of busy routes, unlike what everyone on A.net likes to believe.

Off the top of my head, some routes like MSP-CVG, DTW, LGA, SLC all have very high last minute fares.
 
johnyv
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:50 am

So much for DAY i guess???
 
727LOVER
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Leave it to AirTran to make a big deal about routes that, with the exception of TPA-MSP, aren't new at all.



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 9):
airTran has not flown PITTPA nonstop before

And as far as I know, they haven't served TPA-BOS either.
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MAH4546
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 22):
Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 9):
airTran has not flown PITTPA nonstop before

And as far as I know, they haven't served TPA-BOS either.

I'm pretty sure they flew TPA-BOS last year, but not positive. Also, I recall TPA-PIT being booked and loaded into timetables last winter or the winter before, and it never started. I stand corrected if I'm wrong on either.
a.
 
717-200
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:18 am

NW Feb. 2007 TPA Schedule:
DTW: 6 (5 - 752, 1 - A319/A320)
MSP: 4 (3 - 752, 1 - A320) all 757 on Saturdays
MEM: 3 (1 - D9S, 1 - D95, 1 - A319)
IND: 2 (2 - D9S)
FNT: 1 (1 - D9S)
Total - 16

I'm surprised that NW doesn't slip in a 753 or something larger on the MSP and DTW runs.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
NW would fight like crazy

....would they though?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 15):
NW is not scaling back in MEM. It will be primarily status-quo, with some realignment of capacity when the CR9's & E75's make their way to MEM to right-size some CRJ-200 & DC-9 routes.

I'm not talking about a methodical scale-down, I'm talking total abandonment as a hub-- be it as a result of financial realignment, merger, acquisition, etc. MEM is the last of a dying breed of hub, it's only a matter of time.
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TVNWZ
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 25):
I'm not talking about a methodical scale-down, I'm talking total abandonment as a hub-- be it as a result of financial realignment, merger, acquisition, etc. MEM is the last of a dying breed of hub, it's only a matter of time.

Wow. I fly through there a lot. Planes are always full and the prices are not low. I find in more expensive to connect on NW through MEM than DTW or MSP. Doesn't appear to be even sick to me.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 20):
Off the top of my head, some routes like MSP-CVG, DTW, LGA, SLC all have very high last minute fares.

Nothing unique to MSP, there are hundreds of markets where this is the case. Even with AA now on MSP-LGA, last minute fares aren't going to magically become cheap. Even the LCC's jack up their fares at the very last minute. If the flights are filling up, obviously they aren't going to be cheap. Basically no LCC is going to touch any of the routes you mention with a 10-foot pole or fear the wrath of the red tail.

Quoting 717-200 (Reply 24):
I'm surprised that NW doesn't slip in a 753 or something larger on the MSP and DTW runs.

If they had more they might, West Coast-Hawaii gets first priority, then West Coast - MSP/DTW, then intra-hub, then places like MCO/MKE/IND and then where aircraft availability makes sense. RSW has seen the 753 in the past seasonally.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 25):
I'm not talking about a methodical scale-down, I'm talking total abandonment as a hub-- be it as a result of financial realignment, merger, acquisition, etc. MEM is the last of a dying breed of hub, it's only a matter of time.

Well right now NWA is profitable with the current state of MEM. Nothing is going to change in the short term. Years from now who knows? We could say that about alot of places. But for now, NW is very much dedicated to MEM. As said, NW does a good job of blanketing smaller markets with capacity .
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 15):

NW is not scaling back in MEM

I'm not talking about a calculated scaleback, I'm talking about complete abandonment as a hub.

While MEM is certainly in a unique position (super-low O&D, but hub to 2 carriers who split costs while barely stepping on each others' toes).... it's also among the last of a dying breed. Whether it's brought on by ailing finances, merger, acqusition, strategic fleet redeployment, LoCo carrier invasion, etc; as BNA/RDU/PIT can attest, it's only a matter of time before MEM sings the "remember when we were a hub?" song.
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atlaaron
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 9):
Too bad PIT travellers won't take advantage of the opportunity, they never have with FL. The only airline to most people here is still US Airways, despite WN's constant ads, especially during Pirate games.

That was before . . . I think things have changed since FL tried some of the other PIT routes. However, I don't think Saturday only service to TPA is going to find much success.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:02 pm

I am surprised that with their propensity for seasonal vacation routes, that FL does not open seasonal stations at VPS and PFN. VPS especially is booming, but it's still a bit of a hike from PNS. They used to fly to VPS before dumping it for PNS, which makes sense year-round. But seasonal stations there, plus at MYR, could be successful.
 
steeler83
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 29):
That was before . . . I think things have changed since FL tried some of the other PIT routes.

You can say that again... Things have changed... like a 50+% reduction in traffic thanks to US pulling their hub... They had flights to PHL, LGA, and MDW. US ate FL alive on those three routes with numerous DC9, MD80, 737s etc on those routes, and I think there was a 767 to PHL at the time... A 717 just can't compete with that kind of metal, and nobody really even knew who FL was either. Of course, if they were to try something now, they might have a chance. US continues to slash service there.

Is there a lot of traffic to Florida on Saturdays? USA3000 has a couple of Florida cities with Saturday only service from PIT. I think they recently added Tampa or Sarasota or some airport there, I forget which... Oh, was it FLL they added?
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Cubsrule
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 28):
Whether it's brought on by ailing finances, merger, acqusition, strategic fleet redeployment, LoCo carrier invasion, etc; as BNA/RDU/PIT can attest, it's only a matter of time before MEM sings the "remember when we were a hub?" song.

There's a key difference between those hubs and MEM, though. If you subtract MEM from NW, you lose much more of the network than subtracting PIT from US. And if you look at BNA and RDU, the main reason those hubs closed (in addition to their redundancy with each other) was AA's buildup at MIA. The only thing that will cause MEM to close is a merger or acquisition (and depending on the acquiring carrier, DTW or MSP might be a casualty instead) or an asset purchase (of another carrier that goes Chapter 7). Other than that, MEM is safe.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 31):
and I think there was a 767 to PHL at the time

IIRC, the 762 was from PHL but not to PHL. It flew PHL-PIT-CLT-MCO-CLT-FRA (the incoming CLT-FRA 762 flew FRA-CLT-PHL). That would have been the winter 03/04 timetable, which I think was when FL tried the route. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 29):
I am surprised that with their propensity for seasonal vacation routes, that FL does not open seasonal stations at VPS and PFN.

While FL does like seasonal routes, they usually prefer the market to be able to sustain some flights year round....hence why MYR got dumped in favor of CHS.

VPS could probably sustain FL year-round (like it did before), but I seriously doubt they would open VPS with PNS only 45 miles away. PFN isn't really an option until the new airport opens and even then it's not likely. PFN is pretty small and outside of the 2 month spring break period a pretty sleepy town.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 31):
Of course, if they were to try something now, they might have a chance. US continues to slash service there.

I've wondered if FL might be willing to give PIT another chance. US isn't nearly as big as they were when FL tried before and US is still struggling to make money there. A build-up by FL might be the final straw to knock US out which would really open PIT up. Of course, with WN and B6 now in PIT, that makes it slightly less desirable for an FL buildup.
 
toltommy
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
It is returning. Don't know the date it re-starts, but it is there. FL 877/878.

I sure hope so, FL service is a good alternative in DTW. You've got the low end nickle and dime on NK, and the "passenger processing" of NW. Besides, I'm an AirTran Elite FF, and those big seats up front are very nice!
 
steeler83
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RE: FL Announces TPA To MSP/PIT/DTW/BOS

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:44 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 33):
I've wondered if FL might be willing to give PIT another chance. US isn't nearly as big as they were when FL tried before and US is still struggling to make money there. A build-up by FL might be the final straw to knock US out which would really open PIT up. Of course, with WN and B6 now in PIT, that makes it slightly less desirable for an FL buildup.

I don't WN will grow PIT into a major WN city (40 flights tops), and B6 I think will remain with just JFK and BOS. US just gets smaller and smaller at PIT; they will not grow at all. I think the downsizing will continue. There is demand for PIT. O&D continues to increase. It has surpassed 8 million people for 2006, and I don't see any downward trends for the numbers anytime soon. US cuts, and the other airlines pick up the slack. I suppose FL could have some kind of build up, which would be very interesting to see. I don't think they'll send any 717s to regional markets like HPN, MDT or ALB from PIT though. Of course, I think you'd have to have almost every large city connected from PIT before doing anything of the sort... which I don't see happening...
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