ctang
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UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:49 pm

UA has a large fleet of ageing 747s. What will they replace them with? Maybe A380s? If they do, this would be a huge blow to Boeing as they are also based in Chicago.

What are your thoughts?
 
OceansWorld
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting Ctang (Thread starter):
UA has a large fleet of ageing 747s

UA has 30 B744s at the moment. Twelve of these were delivered between 1989 and 1994, while the rest has arrived between 1996 and 2000 (Five in 1997 and seven in 1999). These are not so old, and when you remember that in the past UA has operated 25 or so year old 741s, there's still some time left for the 744s, unless they decide to go for a younger fleet.

Quoting Ctang (Thread starter):
What will they replace them with? Maybe A380s?

How about a mix of B748s and A380s ?
 
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:29 pm

Many people here assume that UA will be a natural customer for the 787. In a sense, they are but they must be one of the best medium-term bets Airbus have for widebody sales in the USA. I can't ever see, say, AA flying A350s but I could see UA buying them to replace 772s. In that case, might the A350-1000 be a replacement for their 744s, just as several airlines are using the 773ER to replace 744s? And as for the A380, it can't be ruled out. Am I not correct in saying that UA fly their 744s mostly on Pacific routes? The A380 would do that job admirably.

Might Airbus pull off a coup and sell a mix of A350s and A380s to UA? I'm not here to say it's likely but I wouldn't rule it out.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:57 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Might Airbus pull off a coup and sell a mix of A350s and A380s to UA?

Then it would be a really big coup for Airbus.  cloudnine 
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:02 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Might Airbus pull off a coup and sell a mix of A350s and A380s to UA? I'm not here to say it's likely but I wouldn't rule it out.

My god, to do that on Boeings doorstep in Chicago, would be a major coup! Cannot see it myself, UA may play Airbus and Boeing off against each other but IMHO when it comes to long haul Boeing will get the thumbs up with the 787 and I hope the 747-8i at some stage too.
 
keesje
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:19 pm

I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights. Replacing it with smaller types on their hard fought slots in Asia isn't a realistic option..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
zvezda
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
In that case, might the A350-1000 be a replacement for their 744s, just as several airlines are using the 773ER to replace 744s?

UA could replace most of their 747-400s with A350s (operating at higher frequencies and with some fragmentation) but UA have seven routes (to NRT, PEK, and PVG) for which a VLA would be better suited due to severe slot constraints.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:10 pm

I see UA ordering the 748i (and the 787). As others have mentioned, its just out of good diplomacy with both being Chicago businesses. Furthermore, UA and Boeing have a long history of working together, and I would say UA is a pretty loyal Boeing customer. Hell, UA came out of Boeing. And while UA's 744s are deployed only to the "heaviest" highest yielding destinations (or those with slot restrictions) that operate on full loads consistently (FRA, HKG, NRT, PEK, PVG, SYD), I think the A380 is too big. I see UAs widebody fleet continuing to be all Boeing. Narrowbody orders are a wild card at this point
 
ctang
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:24 pm

I tend to disagree. Airbus 380 is not too big for them. All of UA's competitors fly the A380 such as SQ and QF. So far only one airline (LH) has ordered the new 748.
 
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
its just out of good diplomacy with both being Chicago businesses.

Explain this to me. UA buys, say, A350s instead of 787s. Boeing consider that 'undiplomatic'. OK. And then?

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
I would say UA is a pretty loyal Boeing customer.

Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
... while UA's 744s are deployed only to the "heaviest" highest yielding destinations ... operate on full loads consistently ... the A380 is too big.

You'll need to explain this one too. Sounds like a clear argument in favour of the A380 to me.  Wink
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

Boeing for longhaul and Airbus for shorthaul, and I hope that UA keep it that way. IIRC the NG's were not available when UA needed to make a commitment to their shorthaul fleet all those years back. Why order and older aircraft that has been around for years i.e 737-300 when you have more up to date technology in the 320. UA will wait for the next generation of narrowbodies before it makes a large order on that front again.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):I would say UA is a pretty loyal Boeing customer.
Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

Wasn't the order for the Airbuses placed when tall Wolf (and his love for Paris) was at the helm ? IIRC CDG was UA first European destination back in 1990 or 1991... Any link between the two things ?

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 10):
IIRC the NG's were not available when UA needed to make a commitment to their shorthaul fleet all those years back.

The first UA A320 arrived in November 1993, while the first 737-700 was delivered to WN four years later.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):
The first UA A320 arrived in November 1993, while the first 737-700 was delivered to WN four years later.

i rest my case.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:37 pm

Dispite the engine differences in the fleet, don't be surprised to hear about possible UA 777-300ERs. Seems to be the "trend" right now.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):

The first UA A320 arrived in November 1993, while the first 737-700 was delivered to WN four years later.



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 12):
i rest my case.

All perfectly true but the fact remains that UA was a major 737 operator that has migrated to Airbus in a big way while AA, DL and CO have bought hundreds of 737NGs. The concept of "loyalty" (as expressed in post #7) seems a touch inappropriate. Neither CO nor DL operate any Airbuses at all these days while AA is rumoured to have a troubled relationship with Toulouse after the AA A300 crash.

So, my point in a nutshell: which of the following is more likely to buy Airbus widebodies in the next couple of years - AA, CO, DL or UA?  Wink
 
phlwok
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights. Replacing it with smaller types on their hard fought slots in Asia isn't a realistic option..

While I very much doubt that UA would replace 744s with 787s, remember the premium cabin revamps starting this fall across the whole widebody fleet will substantially reduce the number of business seats, mainly due to the increased size they take.

UA appears to be doing well on its transpac routes, but going from a 744 to a 380 might be too much, particularly with increasing competition on many of these routes. Either way, they're probably several years away from a 744 replacement and thus will have time to sit back and watch how the newer aircraft types (380, 748, 350, 787, etc) do.

I don't think the fact that Boeing recently moved corporate HQ to Chicago is relevant. UA has used Boeing for widebodies for a good while now, basically post-DC-10, and Boeing would compete very hard for the next widebody order from them regardless.
 
AADC10
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
Many people here assume that UA will be a natural customer for the 787.

That assumption does not make any sense. UA is less dependent on the 767 than just about any other U.S.A. international carrier and the 787 is supposed to be a 767 replacement. Sure the projected 787-10 would have capacity similar to the 772 but with less comfortable, narrower seats. UA's general preference has been to mostly fly to international destinations that can support at least a 772. They will be a big customer for whatever eventually replaces the 777.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights.

Actually they are shrinking premium space on the 744s and stuffing in more coach seats, making the 744s Trans-Pacific cattle cars. They are maximizing seats on their busiest restricted routes such as SYD and China with most of the rest providing extra capacity to LHR, FRA and NRT.
 
ua76heavy
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:59 am

On a daily basis, the A380 would be too large for UA's operations. Remember, UA has 6 US gateway cities (SFO, LAX, SEA, ORD, IAD, HNL) for its Pacific routes and it would difficult to fill an A380 when traffic can be directed through other cities. In contrast, SQ has a single gateway city (SIN) and QF two (SYD, MEL).

My bet is on the 773ER due to its economics or the 748i because its cargo capacity.
 
kdeg00
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 7):
its just out of good diplomacy with both being Chicago businesses.

I can't imagine any business the size of UA or Boeing worrying about the "diplomacy" of capital purchases totaling hundreds of millions of dollars. And it's not like Boeing and UA grew up playing stickball in a Chicago suburb together. Boeing is a recent arrival in Chicago from Seattle.

The biggest factor I see in any US headquartered company is the growing inequity between the dollar and the euro. At this point ($1.40+ to the euro) I don't see how Airbus has any chance to sell large orders to UA.
 
dl767captain
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:36 am

i doubt it will be anything smaller than the 748, they need the capacity on asian routes. The A380 seems a little too bihlg for them on all 744 routes, so mayne a very small A380 order and the rest 748. Maybe the A350 for a 777 replacement but definately not a 744 replacement
 
zvezda
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting Dl767captain (Reply 19):
i doubt it will be anything smaller than the 748, they need the capacity on asian routes. The A380 seems a little too bihlg for them on all 744 routes, so mayne a very small A380 order and the rest 748. Maybe the A350 for a 777 replacement but definately not a 744 replacement

UA have seven routes which require a VLA. There are several more routes where a VLA could be used. They need a fleet of twelve aircraft to fly those seven routes. There is no way that UA would split an order for twelve to twenty VLAs between A and B. One or the other will win it.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:15 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
In a sense, they are but they must be one of the best medium-term bets Airbus have for widebody sales in the USA.

As someone stated, for Chicago based UA to not buy Chicago based Boeings would be a real slap in the face. UA was the launch customer for the 772 and aside from the 320 family, has been a solid Boeing customer. The question, I think is, is the 380 too big for their plans? I can see 773's replacing the 744's, and whichever model of 787. Anything bigger I'd have to believe they'd take the 748. They seem to be like many carriers and are looking at frequency over capacity, so whichever VLA they take, I would expect to see it only on routes between the various Star hubs. Besides, last I heard ORD still isn't planning to do any major revamping to accommodate the Whalebus in any numbers, so look for them to stay with B.
 
phlwok
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:55 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
UA have seven routes which require a VLA. There are several more routes where a VLA could be used. They need a fleet of twelve aircraft to fly those seven routes.

Out of curiosity, which do you think these are? I'd guess routes like LAX-SYD, SFO-NRT, SFO/ORD-HKG, IAD/ORD-FRA might handle one, but I struggle to think of others. A few years back I would have said LHR, but UA isn't as big there anymore.

If UA were to actually get a VLA, I'd expect them on routes where they have little to no competition, competition is restricted by treaties (e.g. Australia), frequencies are slot restricted and 744s are already used, or are high traffic Star Alliance hubs (hence FRA being on my list), but outside of the Australian and to some extent the China routes, there aren't a lot of these, and in the case of the Chinese routes more capacity from competitors old and new is imminent in the next few years.
 
747fan
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:08 am

I really wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if they come out with a Boeing 777-300ER order, as it seems to be the trend right now (AF replacing 744's w/ 77W, as well as SQ, Cathay Pacific, ANA, I think JAL, EVA, and KLM). At the same time, however, I can also see them ordering the 748 (or both 773 and 748, but unlikely). The only issue w/ these two planes for UA is that neither is offered w/ PW engines; the A380 offers PW engines (well sort of - EA is both PW and GE).
 
flyiguy
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:10 am

I can see UA picking up used 744's from Qantas before buying new aircraft just as they did with some of the Qantas 100's back in the day....
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
DC8FanJet
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:13 am

United got into the narrow body A319/320's when the 737NG weren't an option, and have been mostly satisfied. There
are many reasons that the Airbus narrow bodies are still a better choice.

For widebodies, I don't ever see anything but Boeing for United. 747-8's or 777-300ER's will be the replacements
for the 747-400s, but as noted way earlier, there really isn't any rush to replace, as the UA fleet of -400's isn't that
old.

The 777-300ER's are becoming more of a possibility given the problems United has had with the P&W 4090's,
and the success that Star Alliance partners are having with the big GE's.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

the 320 came out before the NGs did and they needed new planes then i would bet that the go with the 737RS over whatever Airbus offers as long a they come out around the same time

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
So, my point in a nutshell: which of the following is more likely to buy Airbus widebodies in the next couple of years - AA, CO, DL or UA?

none of the above
UA WILL order the 787 i would be willing to put money on it but i lack a pay-pal account
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
gh123
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:58 am

They did pass a couple onto the Dubai Air Wing over the last couple of years: ex N108UA and N109UA which were both manufactured in 1998.


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[Edited 2007-09-21 02:03:40]
 
chgoflyer
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Ctang (Thread starter):
UA has a large fleet of ageing 747s. What will they replace them with? Maybe A380s? If they do, this would be a huge blow to Boeing as they are also based in Chicago.

What are your thoughts?

I thought they were going to buy concordes.. this is a pretty silly post.
Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
 
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:30 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 26):
UA WILL order the 787

I think you're dead right. I live (sometimes) in Zurich and I see UA 767s there every day. Sooner or later I expect they will become UA 787s.

But I also happen to think that UA will buy A350s or A380s or both. I'm not even convinced that it's too late to see A330s in the (awaful) UA livery. We'll see...

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 25):
For widebodies, I don't ever see anything but Boeing for United.

Not ever? So if an Airbus widebody turned out to be an industry 'must-have', UA still wouldn't buy it? Seems a bit myopic.
 
Buddys747
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:35 am

748's and 787's. I very much doubt you'll see any Airbus widebody's in the future, especially a mix of both,this is a US airline, fleet commonality seems to be the way they are going.
 
CX747
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:50 am

One of the major reasons that United purchased the A32X family in the early 90s was Boeing's own hubris. United was looking to expand their narrowbody fleet and replace their 727-200s. Boeing basically came to them with them with the same old offering of 737-300/500 series aircraft with no new bells and whistles. For the most part, Boeing was non-chalant about the entire deal and EXPECTED United to buy the 737 because they were Boeing and United always bought from them. Airbus offered a very good deal on the A320 which was newer and more efficient than the 737-300/500 series aircraft. Airbus's attention to detail and newer more efficient product lead to them winning the deal.

In hind sight, this is one of the best things that ever happened to Boeing. The loss of this deal and the British Midland deal afterwards was a wake up call. Those two loses lead to the 737-300/400/500 series coming to an end and the design and production of the 737NG family as we know it.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
birdbrainz
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):
Wasn't the order for the Airbuses placed when tall Wolf (and his love for Paris) was at the helm ? IIRC CDG was UA first European destination back in 1990 or 1991... Any link between the two things ?

That was the rumor. That's the first thing my dad said while he was flying for UA and this happened. But like it was said before, the 320 was beating the 737-300 badly, so it was a natural choice. It's a lot like what happened at BA.

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
So, my point in a nutshell: which of the following is more likely to buy Airbus widebodies in the next couple of years - AA, CO, DL or UA? Wink

I wouldn't rule it out. Certainly of those four, UA is the most likely.

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 24):
I can see UA picking up used 744's from Qantas before buying new aircraft just as they did with some of the Qantas 100's back in the day....

I agree. It's just like the 7 747-200s they got from QF in the early 90's as well.

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 25):
For widebodies, I don't ever see anything but Boeing for United. 747-8's or 777-300ER's will be the replacements
for the 747-400s, but as noted way earlier, there really isn't any rush to replace, as the UA fleet of -400's isn't that
old.

Exactly. UA isn't about to blow a bunch of money and throw themselves into debt with a bunch of new metal. They can wait until the 380 proves itself, and the 787 flies. Just like they did with the 737-300.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Explain this to me. UA buys, say, A350s instead of 787s. Boeing consider that 'undiplomatic'. OK. And then?

Perhaps "diplomatic" wasn't the best choice of word  Wink . However, it isn't good business- being that both companies are local, and both have a rich 75+ years of working together. UA has launched several types of Boeings... 727, 767, 777 and has backed the development team on many other fleets (such as the 757 IIRC). I would say that that's a pretty good business relationship, and one that's worth maintaining.

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Not so loyal that they have bought a single 737NG.

As others have stated, the 737NG was developed years after UA integrated the 320 into its fleet. In fact, it's been stated on this site (several times) before, that the 737NG was developed as a result of UA going to Airbus for its narrowbody needs. Back to your original question. After the initial integration into the fleet, the 320 proved to be one of the most economical and versatile planes in the UA fleet: operating "off peak" trans-cons, short-hops, and over-water segments.
Now, you can argue that the NG is also capable of the same missions (and indeed it is), but here's the way I see it. The Airbus procurement plan was budgeted to take place over a long period of time, slowly replacing the 737 classics. Summer 2000 and 9/11 put the replacement on hold: UA still holds options for 10+ 319s, and a few 320s. If the 320 is performing as promised, why dump [new] Airbuses for Boeings? This isn't matter of loyalty, its a matter of fiscal responsibility.

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
You'll need to explain this one too. Sounds like a clear argument in favour of the A380 to me

Perhaps it is. But I can't see the A380 working for United. It's simply too big. The VLA flights are certainly oversold, but not to the point in which an additional 100 seats are necessary. Since UA doesn't operate anything like the 380, or any large Airbus for that matter, it would be an expensive and difficult process to integrate it into the fleet and supporting departments (such as maintenance). The 748i on the other hand, has a little more in common with the existing fleet, and can handle the VLA missions, with some room to grow. And finally, it goes back to UA's business relationship with Boeing. I just don't see them going to Airbus (for widebodies) in the near future.

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 11):
Wasn't the order for the Airbuses placed when tall Wolf (and his love for Paris) was at the helm ? IIRC CDG was UA first European destination back in 1990 or 1991... Any link between the two things ?

Perhaps. For one thing, he did set the foundation's for UAs fleet of Airbus narrowbodies and Boeing widebodies.
 
platinumfoota
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:01 am

UA is not too happy with the way their Airbuses are preforming. Too many glitches and everytime that an Airbus has a problem the flight ends up cancelled while Boeing aircraft are mostly worked on and ready to go. Dont think UA will ever by Airbus Widebodies, Boeing's aircraft fit well within its operations.
Never forget United 93
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:28 am

Whatever UA's intentions, I still think they are some years away from making an order. Due to finances, and the fact that their longhaul fleet is middle-aged, at worst. This will give Airbus some time to prove that the A350 is more than capable, but to no avail. Like many of you, I too am sure Boeing will get the widebody order. Whether it's 77W, a 787 variant, or 748i remains to be seen. Heck, if they're really conservative it could be Y3.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
XaraB
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 34):
Too many glitches and everytime that an Airbus has a problem the flight ends up cancelled while Boeing aircraft are mostly worked on and ready to go.

It is interesting to note that certain users around here always claim that the different US airlines are unhappy with their Airbuses (with the possible exception of US, which seems to hardly qualify as a proper airline these days...).

If what you said is true, how come very few of the numerous other airlines that operate the A320 either alongside or in direct competition with 737's complain about their dispatch reliability, their fuel consumption or their operating costs? These two types must be high on the list of different brand aircraft with nearly identical mission profiles and operating characteristics, so I struggle to believe anyone who claim that any of these two aircraft is so inferior to the other type that a major airline is considering switching between them.

If what you said is indeed true, then one could only speculate what the reason is. Is the A320 fleet more heavily used than the Boeings in their fleet? If it is, that could explain the higher cancellation frequency when an aircraft goes tech. Or do ultra-patriotic UA mechanics suddenly suffer from sore backs and seasonal colds when an Airbus turns up on their doorstep?  mischievous 
An open mind is not an empty one
 
zvezda
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting XaraB (Reply 36):
If what you said is true, how come very few of the numerous other airlines that operate the A320 either alongside or in direct competition with 737's complain about their dispatch reliability, their fuel consumption or their operating costs? These two types must be high on the list of different brand aircraft with nearly identical mission profiles and operating characteristics, so I struggle to believe anyone who claim that any of these two aircraft is so inferior to the other type that a major airline is considering switching between them.

I share your skepticism. I have not noticed a difference in dispatch reliability between UA's 737s and A320s. I can say that UA's A320s are generally deployed on longer routes e.g. DEN to east cost and ORD to west coast while 737s are generally deployed on shorter routes e.g. DEN to west coast and ORD to east coast.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
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RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting Birdbrainz (Reply 32):
Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 24):
I can see UA picking up used 744's from Qantas before buying new aircraft just as they did with some of the Qantas 100's back in the day....

I agree. It's just like the 7 747-200s they got from QF in the early 90's as well.

QF never operated the 747-100. Their first 747s were -200s. UA acquired 7 -200s from QF in 1991. I think they were the only ex-QF 747s operated by UA.

Re QF 744s, I doubt UA would want the complications of another widebody engine type. All UA 747s since their earliest -100s have had P&W engines, as did the the first 17-QF -200s including the 7 acquired by UA. QF switched to R-R on their last 5 -200s and on SPs, -300s and -400s, except the 6 -400ERs which have GE engines.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
UA acquired 7 -200s from QF in 1991. I think they were the only ex-QF 747s operated by UA.

Weren't UA's 747SPs ex-QF?
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:01 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 39):
Weren't UA's 747SPs ex-QF?

Ex-Pan Am. They were included in the deal for the Pacific routes with the Tristar 500's.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
.

QF never operated the 747-100.

QF operated four 741's for a very brief time during the late '80s.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 37):
I share your skepticism. I have not noticed a difference in dispatch reliability between UA's 737s and A320s.

If anything, I would expect the A320's to be better.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
warreng24
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:38 am

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
I think airlines like UA needs raw capasity premium space for their Asian flights. Replacing it with smaller types on their hard fought slots in Asia isn't a realistic option..

UA is currently DOWNSIZING their premium cabins on all their widebody 3-class aircraft.
 
scorpy
Posts: 165
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:26 pm

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:08 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
Re QF 744s, I doubt UA would want the complications of another widebody engine type. All UA 747s since their earliest -100s have had P&W engines, as did the the first 17-QF -200s including the 7 acquired by UA. QF switched to R-R on their last 5 -200s and on SPs, -300s and -400s, except the 6 -400ERs which have GE engines.

As SQ introduces its 380's and retires more of their 744, UA may be interested in picking them up - they also run the PW4056. If they win LAX-PVG and want to start DEN-LHR then adding a few used 744's could allow them modest growth without upsetting their financial plan.
 
flyaas80
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:47 am

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:14 pm

First of all I agree that diplomacy and "good business" will have little to do with United's willingness to purchase the 748I and 787 over Airbus's product. They will purchase the better product for them...

You can't do good business if you put yourself outta business.  flamed 

A question that I would like to pose is... O'Hare's ability to handle multiple A380s??? As tight as the planes are parked, especially at United and at Terminal 5, how many A380's can O'Hare manage???
The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
 
OceansWorld
Posts: 828
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:00 am

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
QF never operated the 747-100.



Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 40):
QF operated four 741's for a very brief time during the late '80s.

Indeed, QF has leased three B747-100s.

EI-BED - 747-130 - 19748 / 44 - 11/1987-02/1988

VH-EEI/EI-CAI - 747-123 - 20108 / 87 - 1988-1989 - and sub-lst Air Pacific for a while.

N93117 - 747-131 - 20322 / 113 - 11/1987-02/1988


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Photo © Wolodymir Nelowkin

 
DC8FanJet
Posts: 167
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 9:25 am

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:39 am

The A320/319 fleet in general is out performing the 737's at United, but then, it should. The 737's are getting a bit old.

Initially, there were issues with the Airbuses, mostly because the aircraft is considerably different than the aircraft
it replaced in that computers control everything, and the training curve was long, but now, things are much better.

O'Hare is really not going to be a good A380 airport. T5 has a couple of gates ready, but they will "block" adjoining
gates, and the taxiway clearances to get to/from the domestic terminals aren't enough to move the aircraft freely
around the field.
 
stapleton
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:57 am

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:32 am

There are many reasons that no US passenger airline has ordered the A380 but one of the main reasons is that it puts all your eggs in one basket. Many airlines have either died or nearly died partially because of the 747. Both are huge aircraft that need to have sustained large markets to fill. If competitive changes happen that make a VLA no longer right for one market, they need to find another market that can now fill these very large aircraft. People Express, Pan Am and TWA all struggled greatly when they could not fill these airplanes at fares that covered the cost. America West went into bankruptcy partly because they could not fill their 747s to HNL and Japan, Delta and American quickly found out 747s cannot make money in the highly competitive domestic market. The A380 is even bigger.

So the question comes down to United and Northwest for the A380 and I believe it is highly doubtful either will purchase and it is even questionable whether they will buy the 747-8. They will be even more cautious until they see what the ramifications of the 787 and A350 on the competitive front will be by increasing the number of long range markets. The talk of slots in airports like NRT is to some degree irrelevant since an airline like NW has a set number of slots but a number of those are used for intra Asia service. If they can use the 787 to fly direct from the US to more of those other Asia markets, they no longer need those slots to the Asian cities and can reallocate them to additional service to the US. The 787 and A350 will be game changers. The US carriers got a very rude awakening when RJs came onto the landscape and essentially made the markets for larger aircraft harder to come by when cities that once only had a few destinations suddenly had many many more. This same affect could happen with the introductions of the 787 and A350. That could be why many airlines are holding off on buying any VLA and waiting to see what actually happens.
 
AF022
Posts: 1633
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:51 am

Maybe a little off topic, but will there be any commonality between the B787 and the B747-8?
 
penguinflies
Posts: 932
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 12:00 pm

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Kdeg00 (Reply 18):
And it's not like Boeing and UA grew up playing stickball in a Chicago suburb together.

Actually, I think it was stickball closer to Seattle.

"Oct. 30, 1928
Boeing Airplane - Transport Corp. (BATC) is incorporated in Delaware and acquires BAT, PAT and the Boeing Airplane Co. as subsidiaries.

Feb. 1, 1929
BATC changes its name to United Aircraft and Transport Corp.(UATC) and acquires several new subsidiaries, including Pratt & Whitney Aircraft, Hamilton Standard Propeller Co. and Chance Vought Corp."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1934 United had to spin-off Boeing along with all other non-aviation subsidaries (airports, etc):

"Bowing to media and political pressure, President Franklin Roosevelt in 1934 ordered Postmaster General James Farley to cancel all air mail contracts - - even while Congress was still investigating media charges of "collusion."

When the smoke cleared, United regained all of its air mail routes, but was forced to divest itself of its non-airline affiliates. The company also lost its president, Philip G. Johnson, who was barred from holding an airline position because of his participation in the Brown conference.

As an independent air transport corporation, United found itself with a new president named William Allan Patterson and a new freedom to make equipment decisions independent of the Boeing Airplane Company in Seattle, and the engine and parts manufacturers in the East."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 1934, the airlines under United, "BAT, NAT, PAT and Varney are merged into UALTC."

Three years later, United purchased their first DC-3.

It wasn't until 1943 that UALTC changed it's name to "United Air Lines, Inc."

1969, 1978, 1988 also has name changes.

quotations from United.com

To bring it back into focus, United never has been loyal to one manufacturer. Douglas, Boeing, Convair, Airbus have all been painted in United Colors (to name a few). You never know, it could be the A350 or the 787, whoever gives the best deal I suppose.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18974
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: UA's 744 Fleet

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 40):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
.

QF never operated the 747-100.

QF operated four 741's for a very brief time during the late '80s.

I should have said "ordered", not "operated".

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