rjpieces
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Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:09 am

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...oves_2b_for_railroad_link_to_.html

WASHINGTON - The Senate yesterday approved $2 billion for New York City to build a rail link to JFK Airport, part of $20 billion in rebuilding aid pledged by President Bush after the 9/11 attacks.

The funding, provided through special tax credits, must be authorized by a joint Senate-House panel before it can be doled out to the city.

[Edited 2007-09-22 18:10:09]
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CitrusCritter
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:13 am

I'm calling pork on this one. Building a railroad to JFK has pretty much nothing to do with 9/11 rebuilding. NYC has recovered extremely well to their credit....perhaps they should redirect this $2bn boondoggle - I'm sure it'll end up like the Big Dig costing significantly more -- to New Orleans, where the money is still needed.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
Building a railroad to JFK has pretty much nothing to do with 9/11 rebuilding.

Of course it doesn't, it's merely politikspeak in order to get the money approved.

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
perhaps they should redirect this $2bn boondoggle

Here I'll disagree with you strongly. Portland's "most valuable transportation asset" identified by a study last year--the extension of our light rail MAX line to PDX. More airports need direct rail access to the cities they serve.
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OA260
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
More airports need direct rail access to the cities they serve.

Exactly !! Nice to see Americans finally investing in airport-city links. Public transport especially trains has never been its strong point and JFK badly needs it .
 
pizzaandplanes
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
perhaps they should redirect this $2bn boondoggle

They have already wasted more than $2b so why dump more back in? Of course there are better things to do with that kind of money but in the long term the $2b will not only connect travelers around the world directly to NYC but will also generate revenue for the future. NJ Transit set new passenger records on their trains this past year. Being connected by rail is becoming increasingly more important, difficult, and popular with the challenges we face in the world today.
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ikramerica
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
to New Orleans, where the money is still needed.

I am not in favor of sending 1 more federal dime to the most corrupt state in the nation, Louisiana. And this is coming from someone who's Mom was born and raised there.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
UN_B732
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:36 am

The MAX to PDX is excellent. I can't think of a US airport with a more convenient ride into the city. I wonder how they would implement this to JFK. They probably couldn't use existing AirTrain track?

-A
What now?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 6):
I can't think of a US airport with a more convenient ride into the city.

DCA is probably the most convenient.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 6):
I wonder how they would implement this to JFK. They probably couldn't use existing AirTrain track?

There has been talk of having the AirTrain use a special LIRR track to operate all the way to downtown Manhattan...
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
N270FT
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:45 am

Personally I don't think that this is absolutely necessary for JFK. Off-peak, the LIRR rarely takes more than 25 mins.

Would this be a new extension to the airport, or will it just be a dedicated "airport express" from Jamaica?

AW
 
comorin
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:47 am

Excellent news! JFK on its way to becoming a first-world airport! Free trolleys a la LHR would help too.

Before we all get too excited, isn't this part of the Lower Manhattan Transportation Hub (at the WTC) project? It's really a rail link between JFK and Downtown, not much value for those of us living in 10021. It'd be so great to have a nonstop to JFK from Grand Central.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
More airports need direct rail access to the cities they serve.

I don't disagree with that. My boondoggle comment has to do with the cost-overruns that will certainly occur. No doubt, simply to get the money, the cost has already been underestimated.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:58 am

Excellent.
To put that cost in perspective , the U.S. is currently spending 12 Billion a week in Iraq. This is money better spent. America should spend much more on urban rail and city links such as this. It works well in almost every other country, we can make it work here in the U.S.
The U.S. should consider linking up the entire east coast with energy efficient, quiet, non polluting Maglevs too. Soon, when gas is 7 or 8 USD a gallon people, will be more receptive to this idea.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
It'd be so great to have a nonstop to JFK from Grand Central.

No chance of that without using subway tracks or spending way more than $2 billion. And even then, you would then have 3 links focused on manhattan.
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apodino
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:06 am

My question is, the Rail links to JFK are pretty good already. Why is this going to JFK and not LGA, which is the airport that really needs a rail link badly?
 
n710ps
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
to New Orleans, where the money is still needed.

It would not be needed if people down there were smart enough to think and go "oh no, floods, and storms, lets move the city elsewhere" but than again, well ....... never mind. If the city was smart they would make LGA more rail accessable via Jamaica Station . That would be nice because cabs and stuff are getting much more expensive these days. JFK has the Air Train.
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elmothehobo
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
I'm calling pork on this one.

Exactly what it is.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Public transport especially trains has never been its strong point and JFK badly needs it .

JFK has two rail links, Air Train to Jamaica station AND Howard Beach subway.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
I am not in favor of sending 1 more federal dime to the most corrupt state in the nation, Louisiana. And this is coming from someone who's Mom was born and raised there.

I'd agree with you, but with the state that New Orleans is in, they could really use the money.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
Excellent news! JFK on its way to becoming a first-world airport! Free trolleys a la LHR would help too.

Adding another rail link to JFK (making Air Train obsolete) isn't going to help make JFK a world class airport.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
It'd be so great to have a nonstop to JFK from Grand Central.

Penn Station would make more sense because of the connection that can be made (LIRR/NJT/Amtrak).

Quoting Apodino (Reply 13):
My question is, the Rail links to JFK are pretty good already.

EXACTLY!

Quoting Apodino (Reply 13):
Why is this going to JFK and not LGA, which is the airport that really needs a rail link badly?

JFK is bigger and is farther removed from Manahattan. A subway link to LGA would probably more cost effective than a dedicated rail line.

----

I used Air Train a few months ago and thought about whether or not the tracks could be reworked to allow LIRR trains to use them from Jamaica station to JFK. They would simply close the loop where the AirTrain ran out to Jamaica station and build a new station in JFK.

The obvious problems would be station clearance, curves and car weight for LIRR on the former AirTrain tracks.
 
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OA260
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 15):
JFK has two rail links, Air Train to Jamaica station AND Howard Beach subway.

I wouldn't call that an airport rail link!!! You have to jump onto a subway line . I have done it many times and its far from a nice experience. Id like to see a dedicated express line from downtown to JFK nonstop with trains designed to take luggage and closer to the terminal buildings.
 
comorin
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
It'd be so great to have a nonstop to JFK from Grand Central.

No chance of that without using subway tracks or spending way more than $2 billion. And even then, you would then have 3 links focused on manhattan.

East Side Access will consist of a set of tunnels under the present Amtrak rails on Park Ave, turn at 63rd street and hook up to the rail line in Queens. This will allow the LIRR to come to GCT. There is no reason you couldn't connect to JFK at Jamaica, or extend the link further.

See:

http://www.mta.info/capconstr/esas/image_gallery.htm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 15):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
Excellent news! JFK on its way to becoming a first-world airport! Free trolleys a la LHR would help too.

Adding another rail link to JFK (making Air Train obsolete) isn't going to help make JFK a world class airport.

Think AMS and LHR - light years ahead in this department.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 15):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
It'd be so great to have a nonstop to JFK from Grand Central.

Penn Station would make more sense because of the connection that can be made (LIRR/NJT/Amtrak).

It'd be great for me and others to whom getting to Penn is a waste of time and inconvenient. East Side and Midtown folks would like it, like in the old days of the East Side Terminal.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 10):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
More airports need direct rail access to the cities they serve.

I don't disagree with that. My boondoggle comment has to do with the cost-overruns that will certainly occur. No doubt, simply to get the money, the cost has already been underestimated.

How many public works projects don't have cost overruns? It's nearly a given that they always lowball in asking and appropriating funding because it would never get through with accurate estimates.

It doesn't change the fact that JFK needs easy mass access to the city. What world city main gateway airport doesn't have a rail link? Not a whole of them, anymore. I fly into EWR when I go to New York specifically for the air train. It makes it super convenient and fast to get into the city. It's cheap, efficient, the way things are supposed to be, and that's what JFK needs also. This is just something that needs to be there.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 15):
Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
I'm calling pork on this one.

Exactly what it is.

Generally speaking, pork is unnecessary spending. What about a rail link from JFK to Manhattan is unnecessary?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
I wouldn't call that an airport rail link!!!

Well, it's a set of rails that runs right into the airport, from another rail station. If that's not a rail link, I'm not too sure what it would be.  Big grin

Seriously, it is a rail link, albeit the easier, "cheaper" way out of having to build a real dedicated LIRR or AMTRAK extension.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
You have to jump onto a subway line .

Or you could take the LIRR. It isn't Amtrak, but it isn't the Subway either.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
I have done it many times and its far from a nice experience.

I used the LIRR from Penn Station and thought it was a good experience, I'll use it the next time I'm going to New York.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 16):
Id like to see a dedicated express line from downtown to JFK nonstop with trains designed to take luggage and closer to the terminal buildings.

I completely agree. The LIRR should start an "Airporter" service running between Penn Station and Jamaica with cars with more luggage racks. There is already a nonstop LIRR service (Penn Station - Jamaica), though it uses the same rolling stock, and it is an express train that continues elsewhere on Long Island.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 17):
It'd be great for me and others to whom getting to Penn is a waste of time and inconvenient. East Side and Midtown folks would like it, like in the old days of the East Side Terminal.

... or just connect both Penn Station and Grand Central to Kennedy.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 17):
Think AMS and LHR - light years ahead in this department.

Absolutely. I've used the service at AMS, GVA, ZRH and FCO, they are light years ahead of what we have here. BWI's problem is that the rail station is so far removed form the train station. Though I haven't tried AirTrain EWR, it seems to make a lot more sense than some of the other systems they have.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
DCA is probably the most convenient.

Agree 100%. Metrorail got it right putting the station right in DCA. It's too bad that it'll be another two iceages before they agree to build the IAD route.
 
Mir
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:15 am

I hope that this will be the JFK-Downtown link that is sorely needed. The A train doesn't cut it between Lower Manhattan and JFK.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 19):
The LIRR should start an "Airporter" service running between Penn Station and Jamaica with cars with more luggage racks.

LIRR and NJTransit should get together and start a JFK--Penn Station-EWR train with dedicated rolling stock.

-Mir
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n710ps
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:46 am

I think LGA needs it more. I will do anything to put cabbies out of work in this city.
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OA260
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 19):
Well, it's a set of rails that runs right into the airport, from another rail station. If that's not a rail link, I'm not too sure what it would be.

Was I on the wrong train ??? LOL.... I had to get a monorail type train to the subway station then stand there in the freezing cold to get the connection!!! Not exactly the Heathrow Paddington express LOL..... Also it wasnt very tourist friendly.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
LIRR and NJTransit should get together and start a JFK--Penn Station-EWR train with dedicated rolling stock.

-Mir

Great idea . That would be amazing if it happened.
 
Reggaebird
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 6):
I can't think of a US airport with a more convenient ride into the city.

DCA is probably the most convenient.

I think that Boston has the best airport connections. One can take an electrified trolley (called the Silver Line), the subway and commuter boats.
 
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OA260
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 23):
I think that Boston has the best airport connections. One can take an electrified trolley (called the Silver Line), the subway and commuter boats.

If I remember rightly it departs outside the airport arrivals area and goes in these underground tunnels until you get to Boston South Station ?? Then you can connect to Amtrak. I did this last year to get to Providence and it was really fast and easy to use.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 18):
I fly into EWR when I go to New York specifically for the air train. It makes it super convenient and fast to get into the city. It's cheap, efficient, the way things are supposed to be, and that's what JFK needs also.

I call bull**it. Currently JFK and EWR have virtually identical setups with respect to the AirTrain. The only differences are that EWR's AirTrain takes you right into the terminals and that JFK offers connections to more options (subway, etc).

With both airTrains, you have to take at least two trains to get where you are going. So it's not like EWR has a one-seat ride to the airport like LHR or DCA or elswhere....
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
comorin
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 25):
call bull**it. Currently JFK and EWR have virtually identical setups with respect to the AirTrain. The only differences are that EWR's AirTrain takes you right into the terminals and that JFK offers connections to more options (subway, etc).

With both AirTrains, you have to take at least two trains to get where you are going. So it's not like EWR has a one-seat ride to the airport like LHR or DCA or elswhere....

Good call! I took a cab to Penn last month (20mts and $18) to catch a NJT train to the so-called Newark Airport Station and got on the AirTrain (the little cabins, what is with that?) to make it to EWR. It was quite a schlep.

Next time, I'll Dial 7....

EWR is meant for and is very convenient for Jerseyites with cars to use.

LGA is the closest airport to Manhattan and corporate road warriors are willing to pay for the convenience and access. It would be fabulous if there was a direct link to Manhattan, but the cab ride is not horrible ($25).

JFK needs a 'Heathrow' Express, and NYC needs to bring back Robert Moses from his grave to make it all happen.

Jeez, I can't believe we're in the 21st century and still dealing with this.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 15):
I'd agree with you, but with the state that New Orleans is in, they could really use the money.

But would they use it for anything good, or just graft? There has been so much money thrown at that city, and it's still in shambles. You see pictures of people's houses with furniture and dirt strewn about 2 years after the hurricane. Where is the "take care of yourself" spirit there? There's no freaking way that after 2 years I wouldn't have straightened up my own freaking house if I intended to return to it. Most of those buildings are abandoned, but the government (local and state, not federal) is blocking them from being razed, and no amount of federal money thrown at it will make anyone in that city or state wise up.

And after all the failure of the government up and down the line, they don't vote anyone out, and Nagin is looking to run for freaking governor! He has blood on his hands from his actions before and during the storm, but they don't seem to want to hold him accountable, so why would we want to give anyone there even more money? So we feel better about ourselves?

Quoting Comorin (Reply 17):
East Side Access will consist of a set of tunnels under the present Amtrak rails on Park Ave, turn at 63rd street and hook up to the rail line in Queens. This will allow the LIRR to come to GCT. There is no reason you couldn't connect to JFK at Jamaica, or extend the link further.

Which would cost more than $2 billion. As I said, you'd have to use either existing subway tunnels or spend more than $2 billion to create new tunnels. Tunneling under the existing rail lines under park avenue will be a very expensive project and they will run into all sorts of unforeseen problems once they get started.

They might as well just go to 59th/63rd and Lex/3rd complex instead. It's all connected underground, much cheaper, connects to the NRWF456 trains, more connected than grand central. It of course wouldn't connect to the Metro North trains, but at that point, it's getting a bit absurd, spending all that money so Westchester can connect easily with the JFK train rather than everyone else in NYC.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
planeguy727
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:50 am

JFK, LGA & EWR all have fairly simple access to manhattan. It all about the value an individual places on "time."

I have used the NJT & AirTran to EWR and actually think the M60 bus to/from LGA is easier and about the same amount of time (I live in Hamilton Heights).

Generally speaking people in the United States are too car dependent to see a value in mass transit. Part of what I love about visiting other parts of the world is the great public transport. The train from AMS, the trains in Egypt, the ferry to Ireland, etc.

Oh - and the subway to ORD is actually easy...

PG727
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TeamAmerica
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:22 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
Building a railroad to JFK has pretty much nothing to do with 9/11 rebuilding.

Given that the city has borne most of the cost of the clean up, and the the subsequent costs of ongoing healthcare to the workers from the WTC cleanup effort...and so much more...why you would begrudge them some money that was already pledged by the US government is beyond me. It's the least we can do. "Lest we forget"

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 10):
My boondoggle comment has to do with the cost-overruns that will certainly occur. No doubt, simply to get the money, the cost has already been underestimated.

 talktothehand Cynical nonsense!!!

It simply isn't true that every project has cost overruns, nor that everybody lies about cost estimates. More importantly, this is the Civil Aviation forum...you can start a thread for discussing the politics of this rail link over in Non-Av if you wish.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
gatechae
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:38 am

While MARTA (metro atlanta rapid transit) gets absolutely no state or federal funding for its grossly inefficient mass transportation system, the city of New York gets 2 Billion for a secondary rail line to the airport.....I honestly don't see how this is needed.
 
ly204
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting Planeguy727 (Reply 28):
JFK, LGA & EWR all have fairly simple access to manhattan. It all about the value an individual places on "time."

As a New Yorker, I have to say that the options to any of these three airports are generally mixed -- LGA is shortest by car (and you can still find yourself in traffic for an hour and a half on a bad day)...as stated above JFK/EWR airtrains, while a marked improvement from no-light-rail service have a change of trains along the way.

As a few other folks mentioned above, Heathrow Express is really the benchmark that NY should be following. The taxi ride to/from JFK is pricey ($55 at best in-bound to Manhattan) and the Van Wyck/LIE expressways are very unpredictable in terms of traffic. The airtrain is a good option for tourists but for business travelers it is not practical to go to Penn Station, then Jamaica Station, then the Jamaica AirTrain station, before getting to the terminal...
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The Senate yesterday approved $2 billion for New York City to build a rail link to JFK Airport

No big deal. That's what the Bush League spends for one week of playing with his soldiers in the sandbox. The rail link is more important.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Mir
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting Ly204 (Reply 31):
As a few other folks mentioned above, Heathrow Express is really the benchmark that NY should be following.

Something based on CDG's RER connection or the S-Bahn connections in Germany would be better in my mind.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
a380us
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:28 pm

will it be LIRR or a subway
cause both are very helpfull
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WarRI1
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:37 pm

I have an example to use about overuns, in Rhode Island we had twenty five million federal dollars for a new train station to link our airport with the railine to Boston or New York. the last time I heard a figure and only engineering has been done, the station was one hundred and seventy million and counting.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
bohica
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 18):
What world city main gateway airport doesn't have a rail link?

Washington Dulles.

IAD is the poster child of lousy ground transportation. There is no rail line there and there will not be one anytime in the near future. There are plans to extend Metrorail to IAD, but they are just plans. There are too many government agencies involved with the project which results in nothing getting done. The biggest obstacle for the project is Tysons Corner. They can't decide whether to run it above ground or underground. Also every business in Tysons Corner wants a station at their doorstep, resulting in four stations there alone. The project is also in danger of not receiving federal funds because of budget overruns. This is what happens when too many people have a say in the project and all of them have their heads up their asses.

Good luck to the JFK rail project. I am sure it will be completed before the IAD project is even started.
 
sq452
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 7):
DCA is probably the most convenient.

Agreed, you walk out of the terminal maybe 50 meters and there you are at the platform. The platform is literally smack dab next to the terminal building.

Quoting Reggaebird (Reply 23):
I think that Boston has the best airport connections. One can take an electrified trolley (called the Silver Line), the subway and commuter boats.

BOS has good public transport to the city from Logan, but not as good as DCA with the station within a stones throw of the terminal. With BOS, you have to take a terminal shuttle bus from the subway station to the various terminals. In terms of options I will say BOS has probably the most (Bus, Train, Boat) and can get you to more places on public transport than any other city, but actually getting to those transport options from the terminal is an added trip. It would be awesome if they had a train right to the terminal (I know its not going to happen but one can dream at least).
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
N353SK
Posts: 826
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:41 pm

I think that if a truly convenient, efficient, well run train system went from JFK to Manhattan JFK would see a huge increase in domestic leisure traffic. If the Smiths from Little Rock are suddenly posed with the option of taking a taxi through traffic from LGA or a train straight into Manhattan from JFK on their vacation I think they'll choose JFK. Those that prefer to take a limo service (mostly business pax) from the airport would still fly into LGA as it is closer. B6 should be lobbying for the rail link more than anybody. Sure foreign pax will appreciate it too, but from many originations JFK is their only port of entry for New York.


Would it be at all possible to have pax check in and go clear security right at the Manhattan Station? What about checking their bags from their origin all the way to the manhattan station?
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting GatechAE (Reply 30):
I honestly don't see how this is needed.

As I mentioned before, when our light rail link to PDX was built (which ironically opened 9/10/01), it became the most important transportation asset in the area. It was actually funded by Bechdel, in exchange for other development rights in the area which are just taking shape. In densely populated areas such as New York, you simply aren't going to find the vacant land to develop around an airport, and need funds to develop infrastructure. Federal funds are available for this use, so they should be used for their intent.

I do have to chuckle a bit at the comment above that the NJ Transit link is "cheap." I remembered it being >$10 when I used it last in 2003, and the current price is $15 one-way. The Amtrak service on the same line costs more than the 200-mile or so Amtrak trip from Portland to Seattle. The MAX light rail from PDX to anywhere served by Tri-Met is $2.05. Now that's cheap.  silly 
International Homo of Mystery
 
ncelhr
Posts: 252
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:53 pm

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting Ly204 (Reply 31):
As a few other folks mentioned above, Heathrow Express is really the benchmark that NY should be following.

But would New Yorkers be ready to pay the price of the ticket:

GBP. 14.50 on the internet ( $ 29 )
GBP. 15.50 at a ticket machine ( $ 31.30 )
GBP. 17.50 onboard ( $ 35.30 )

and for first class tickets, the price being GBP. 24.50 = $ 49.50

 Sad
 
SWALoveField
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:49 pm

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:46 pm

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 1):
I'm sure it'll end up like the Big Dig costing significantly more -- to New Orleans, where the money is still needed.

WHAT?

"Hey, I live in a hurricane zone below sea level and I'm not going to insure my house against floods."

I never wish death on anyone, but property losses? They had it coming.

Back on topic.

DART (Dallas Area Rapid Transit) had proposed a rail station at DAL which would require tunneling underneath a runway. Does anyone know the status of this plan or the planned DART rail station at LOVE FIELD?

Robb
Dallas, TX
 
apodino
Posts: 3027
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RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting SQ452 (Reply 37):



BOS has good public transport to the city from Logan, but not as good as DCA with the station within a stones throw of the terminal. With BOS, you have to take a terminal shuttle bus from the subway station to the various terminals. In terms of options I will say BOS has probably the most (Bus, Train, Boat) and can get you to more places on public transport than any other city, but actually getting to those transport options from the terminal is an added trip. It would be awesome if they had a train right to the terminal (I know its not going to happen but one can dream at least).

You haven't been to BOS lately. The other poster was refering to the Silver Line, which provides a 1 seat ride into downtown Boston, much of it on dedicated territory. Its much better than the Massport bus to the Blue Line if you are going anywhere West or South of the City on Public transport. The best thing I like about it is the ticket machines in the terminal will also sell you Commuter Rail tickets, so you can walk straight to the commuter train at South Station without stopping at the ticket window. No the silver line is not rail, but I think it provides better access to the Rail portions of the subway than the Massport bus does.

As far as the best Public transport connections in the US, I would say DCA is Number 1, followed by ATL and BWI, and PHL. ATL has Marta right in the terminal and so does BWI with the Baltimore light rail. PHL has an excellent rail connection with the stations being adjacent to the terminals (In fact, when you arrive you actually have to cross over the tracks to get to baggage claim), and a very quick ride into downtown Philly. I don't know PDX well so I can't comment on that. ORD also has good access, the only downside is if you arrive or depart from Terminal 5, you have to take the tram over to Terminal 3 and walk. But otherwise, the walk is not bad at all. MDW also has a link to the Subway, the only downside here is the walk, which isn't a short walk, but I have seen worse. MSP is also very underrated, with a Light Rail station right in the terminal, and a very quick ride to the Mall of America.

Basically, if I had my list it would look like this.

1. DCA
2. PHL
3. BWI
4. ATL
5. MSP
6. ORD
7. MDW
8. SFO
9. BOS
10. JFK

Honorable mentions to MIA, FLL, and PBI which are all served by Tri Rail and is part of the reason that much of the SE florida traffic is going to FLL now. Also LAX, which has a Green Line station just off the airport. But upon looking at it, there are many more airports in the US that have Rail connections than you might think. Too bad the rail service can't be up to par with Japan or Europe. And boy are we paying the price in the US for that now.

Back to the OT, I remember years ago the NY Subway had a JFK Express which ran from Rockefeller Center out to JFK. I can't remember the exact stops, but I believe Jay Street/Borough Hall was the only station in Brooklyn, then the train ran express all the way to Howard Beach. Back when this was run, JFK wasn't much of a domestic airport, so the ridership wasn't that great, and I think thats why it got canned. Could something like this work if it was restarted? Also, just about every other place you go to with an off Airport train station offers free shuttle service. Could the airports help themeselves by not charging passengers to use the train? I mean, $5.00 for a lift to Jamaica, yet the subway train is only $2.00? I think it should be a free shuttle, because they should be encouraging the use of Public Transport, not discourage it.
 
r2rho
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 40):
Quoting Ly204 (Reply 31):
As a few other folks mentioned above, Heathrow Express is really the benchmark that NY should be following.

But would New Yorkers be ready to pay the price of the ticket:

GBP. 14.50 on the internet ( $ 29 )
GBP. 15.50 at a ticket machine ( $ 31.30 )
GBP. 17.50 onboard ( $ 35.30 )

and for first class tickets, the price being GBP. 24.50 = $ 49.50

Rather than the overpriced Heathrow Express, I think the benchmark should be MAD's cheap, modern and fast subway link into downtown. Best airport link I know.
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 523
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:29 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 15):
Quoting Comorin (Reply 9):
It'd be so great to have a nonstop to JFK from Grand Central.

Penn Station would make more sense because of the connection that can be made (LIRR/NJT/Amtrak).

On the other hand, Metro-North uses Grand Central. That serves Westchester and beyond, including Connecticut. I submit those folks have it as bad as anybody from NJ, probably worse than folks from Manhattan, and loads worse than anybody from Long Island, when it comes to getting to JFK.

Quoting Ncelhr (Reply 40):
Quoting Ly204 (Reply 31):
As a few other folks mentioned above, Heathrow Express is really the benchmark that NY should be following.

But would New Yorkers be ready to pay the price of the ticket:

GBP. 14.50 on the internet ( $ 29 )
GBP. 15.50 at a ticket machine ( $ 31.30 )
GBP. 17.50 onboard ( $ 35.30 )

and for first class tickets, the price being GBP. 24.50 = $ 49.50

Those figures are what an American pays to use the HEX. Like everything else in England, it's expensive for Americans because of the exchange rate. It's not a good comparison, though certainly the HEX is not cheap.
 
comorin
Posts: 3857
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 5:52 am

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:37 pm

As a business traveler, I love the Heathrow Express. It's pricey but it's fast, quiet, comfortable and cheaper than a cab. I use it every other month, so it's also affordable. However, if I had to go the airport every day, then I'd probably take the Piccadilly line. I'd say that in that case European rail solutions in AMS and MAD are better choices as an express way to get downtown.

I guess there are two different segments - one mode optimal for the traveler, and the other for daily airline industry workers.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12389
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:11 pm

Probably the biggest winners of this will be the construction companies and unions. Of course, it will probably really cost $3-4 Billion when done. I also dislike that monies are being taken from 9/11 security monies, not from transportation funds.
JFK serves a huge market, not really reachable for many by LIRR and NYCTA, most pax to/from JFK will have large amounts of luggage not easy to transport to/from train systems and so on. Problem is that the vehicle traffic and pollution from it in the region needs to be reduced and a strong, direct, luggage friendly heavy, main line train service is needed as seen at FRA, AMS and other mainly European airports.
I agree that it would be better to connect LGA to the #7 NYCTA line and the LIRR or a spur line of the LIRR to hook up to the main line at and with a stop at Jamaica going on without a train change to Penn Station. Many LGA pax are going for short business trips, have less luggage than those using JFK, very limited parking, the same or even worse traffic problems than JFK, cabs are expensive and so on.
 
nycfly75
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:38 pm

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Ly204 (Reply 31):
s a New Yorker, I have to say that the options to any of these three airports are generally mixed -- LGA is shortest by car (and you can still find yourself in traffic for an hour and a half on a bad day)...as stated above JFK/EWR airtrains, while a marked improvement from no-light-rail service have a change of trains along the way.

Exactly why I keep saying I dont know why everyone thinks LGA is such a wonderful airport. It is closest to the city by car and even then it still can take over one hour to get there. LGA is good for business travelers who cab or limo it or for those who live in its immediate area. Other than that, LGA is a fossil that cant grow anymore, has lousy public transportation connections and tends to be avoided by locals who would be better served by JFK or EWR. Ive heard plenty of times from people, "I rather pay a few dollars more than deal with LaGuardia."
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting Apodino (Reply 42):
You haven't been to BOS lately. The other poster was refering to the Silver Line, which provides a 1 seat ride into downtown Boston, much of it on dedicated territory. Its much better than the Massport bus to the Blue Line if you are going anywhere West or South of the City on Public transport. The best thing I like about it is the ticket machines in the terminal will also sell you Commuter Rail tickets, so you can walk straight to the commuter train at South Station without stopping at the ticket window. No the silver line is not rail, but I think it provides better access to the Rail portions of the subway than the Massport bus does.

Unfortunately I haven't Sad And I totally forgot the fact that the Silverline goes right to the terminals.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
PavlovsDog
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 3:28 am

RE: Senate Approves $2B For Railroad Link To JFK

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:36 pm

Unless I'm mistaken this project is about a rail connection to downtown via a new tunnel (or using one of the numerous subway tunnels between Brooklyn and Downtown). In reality it will benefit all commuters using the LIRR into downtown and save them a massive amount of time. It will also enable connections to PATH at WTC at a new Downtown Transit Hub. Service to JFK is an ancillary benefit which I imagine is highly profiled since it's easier to sell to constituents of Congressmen.

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