BlueSkys
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A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:03 am

First question, we now have two new jumbos, 748 & A380 and two new Super efficient composite planes... What is next from the industry, more super efficiency? SuperSonic? BWB? I am really curious to hear peoples opinions.


&


The 747, 727, 737, A320 Etc. all started with the -100 designation for the first model. Why now is Boeing and Airbus starting with -800 and going up? I have been really curious. I thought it would have been 787-100 then 200 and so on and same for the A350. Anyone have a Clue?
 
bok269
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
Why now is Boeing and Airbus starting with -800 and going up?

Marketing. Some believe it has to do with 8 being lucky in Asian culture

The next aircraft to go into development after the A350, A380, 787 and 748 will be the Airbus NSR (A320 replacement) and Boeing Y1 (737RS).
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
What is next from the industry, more super efficiency?

Yep. CFRP twinjets will be the thing for awhile. Next up I expect we'll see new generation narrowbodies from both Airbus and Boeing, replacing the A320 and B737.

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
Why now is Boeing and Airbus starting with -800 and going up?

The number 8 is considered lucky in some Asian cultures (much more so than "lucky 7" in the USA).

Airbus allegedly jumped from A340 to A380-800 for this reason. Boeing followed with the 787-8, then the 747-8. Airbus has continued the pattern with the A350-800.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
What is next from the industry, more super efficiency? SuperSonic? BWB?

Probably more efficiency as this is what it seems the airlines want over speed. Also it seems making an airliner more fuel friendly is easier than making a Mach 1.5 airliner due to sonic boom issues.

What's next?
Probably the 797 and A360.  Wink
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tdscanuck
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
First question, we now have two new jumbos, 748 & A380 and two new Super efficient composite planes... What is next from the industry, more super efficiency? SuperSonic? BWB? I am really curious to hear peoples opinions.

For the industry, all of the following are in the pipeline but not clear which order they'll arrive:
-supersonic biz jet
-737/A320 replacement
-777 upgrade/replacement
-New burst of ~100 seat RJ's

Super efficiency is going to be a huge deal for everything but the biz jets (supersonic and efficient don't play nicely together). BWB is a long way off...we'll see it in military cargo first, then maybe in commercial in a few decades.

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
The 747, 727, 737, A320 Etc. all started with the -100 designation for the first model. Why now is Boeing and Airbus starting with -800 and going up? I have been really curious. I thought it would have been 787-100 then 200 and so on and same for the A350. Anyone have a Clue?

Boeing didn't use -800, it's -8 (and -9, etc.). They went with -8 on the 787 because of the tie with the 7*8*7 and the fact that 8 is considered lucky in several Asian cultures and the plane's launch customers are Asian. They went with -8 on the 747-8 to tie the 747 upgrade to the PR associated with the 787. It's not at all clear what the number of the next project will be, although 797 is probably a good guess.

Airbus started with A300 because it was designed for 300 people and then they stuck with sequential numbers (A310, A320) for the next few models. The A318/319/321 are self explanatory. I'm not sure why the suffixes on the A330 and A340 are what they are...maybe the -100 models were planned in development but never executed? A380 was picked, I assume, to reflect the significant jump over the A340 (roughly the same dimensions but double decks). -800 might be have been to capture the whole "8" thing or because the plane's maximum capacity is in the neighborhood of 800. A350 took them back to the sequential major model numbers...-800 is a counter to Boeing, I assume.

The whole industry is generally obsessed with 8's at the moment.

Tom.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 3):
Probably the 797



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
797 is probably a good guess

Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808". The interesting thing will be to see how Airbus responds to that. stirthepot 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
atmx2000
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):

Boeing didn't use -800, it's -8 (and -9, etc.). They went with -8 on the 787 because of the tie with the 7*8*7 and the fact that 8 is considered lucky in several Asian cultures and the plane's launch customers are Asian. They went with -8 on the 747-8 to tie the 747 upgrade to the PR associated with the 787. It's not at all clear what the number of the next project will be, although 797 is probably a good guess.

The -8 number came out before the 7E7 became the 787. They claim the reason for choosing -8 was to reflect the range of the long range base model (>8000nm), and -3 to reflect the range of the short range model. -9 was given to the larger aircraft.

I suppose they could make the same claim for the 747-8 too, as it has 8000nm range, but they never gave a reason for using that number as far as I know.
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AirplaneFan
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):

Boeing did not start the Boeing 787 with the 800 series, but the 300 series, Boeing 787-3. 

[Edited 2007-09-23 05:14:03]
I GOT YOUR SIX
 
InbarD
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:01 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):

Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808". The interesting thing will be to see how Airbus responds to that. stirthepot

Thats sounds like a horrible model number (eight zero eight). Not nearly as catchy as the 707.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808". The interesting thing will be to see how Airbus responds to that.

The A707 and B300 are coming.      

[Edited 2007-09-23 05:07:20]
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OB1504
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808". The interesting thing will be to see how Airbus responds to that.  stirthepot 

With the exception of the 720 (arguably a 707 derivative), Boeing hasn't made a commercial aircraft not ending with "7" in over fifty years. I doubt they're about to abandon that generations-old tradition just to cater to some Asian superstition.

The Boeing 807 would be much more likely than the Boeing 808.
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808". The interesting thing will be to see how Airbus responds to that.

Of course. You get it. Boeing should go with 808 because it claims all the 8 series for them. Then Y3 could be 888.

Airbus has more of a right to the 4 series, because all their planes are A300 / A310 etc.

But too bad for Airbus, 4 is an unlucky number because it sounds like the cantonese word for death.

7 was a great number, and 7 had a good run, but except for 797, its used up.

8 is the new lucky number for the 21st century.

" the reason #8 is so lucky is because if you say the word (patt) it sounds like "faat" which means "prosperity & abundance"

http://www.fengshuitips.co.uk/numbers.htm

The Jin Mao Building in Shanghai is 88 stories.

"The 88 floors (93 if the spire floors are counted) are divided into 16 segments, each of which is 1/8th shorter than the 16-story base. The tower is built around an octagon-shaped concrete shear wall core surrounded by 8 exterior composite supercolumns and 8 exterior steel columns. Three sets of 8 two-story high outrigger trusses connect the columns to the core at six of the floors to provide additional support."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Mao_Building
 
skibum9
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 7):
Boeing did not start the Boeing 787 with the 800 series, but the 300 series, Boeing 787-3

So is Boeing scrapping airline identifiers, ex. B767-332 for DL configured 767? Or will it be 787-832?
Tailwinds!!!
 
ABpositive
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:28 pm

I think engines will see the next major development, especially in regards to new fuels.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 7):
Boeing did not start the Boeing 787 with the 800 series, but the 300 series, Boeing 787-3.

The 787-8 is both the base design and precedes the 787-3. The 787-3 is very much a derivative model.

It is clear that Boeing will turn their attention to the Y1/737RS after the 787 and that Airbus will turn their attention to NSR after the A350. After that, nothing is clear except that there is no significant market for airliners larger than A350-1000/787-11 sized.
 
bok269
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:50 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
The Boeing 807 would be much more likely than the Boeing 808.

Not to mention it rolls off the tongue better

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 12):

So is Boeing scrapping airline identifiers, ex. B767-332 for DL configured 767? Or will it be 787-832?

Nope. The customer codes will still be there, but the generics will be sans the 00

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 7):
Boeing did not start the Boeing 787 with the 800 series, but the 300 series, Boeing 787-3.

THe 787-8 was introduced first and will enter service first. Lower number doesn't mean it was first.

I would be willing to bet Boeing goes with the 797 for the 787RS.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
dallasnewark
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:53 pm

Quoting BlueSkys (Thread starter):
The number 8 is considered lucky in some Asian cultures (much more so than "lucky 7" in the USA).

Airbus allegedly jumped from A340 to A380-800 for this reason. Boeing followed with the 787-8, then the 747-8. Airbus has continued the pattern with the A350-800.

And it will continiue until the economic crash in Asia, after which the world would look up to the next emerging market and present the next "lucky" number
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
rampart
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 2):
The number 8 is considered lucky in some Asian cultures (much more so than "lucky 7" in the USA).

Airbus allegedly jumped from A340 to A380-800 for this reason. Boeing followed with the 787-8, then the 747-8. Airbus has continued the pattern with the A350-800.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
that 8 is considered lucky in several Asian cultures and the plane's launch customers are Asian.

The only place I've ever read this is on A.net, or in writings derived from A.net, and none from the manufacturers themselves, and I'm more convinced that the "lucky 8" attribution is more urban legend and coincidence than anything planned. As I've mentioned on other threads, I understand the primacy of good fortune in East Asian cultures, but isn't pandering to superstition a little insulting for something so high-tech in one of the most sophisticated businesses on the planet? And at the expense of other cultures -- what about their lucky numbers? The Asian aviation market is large and growing, but only ~25% of the current 787 orders, for instance, go to East Asian customers. I'd say it would be mistaken marketing to name an aircraft to curry favor from just 1/4 of your customers.

-Rampart

[Edited 2007-09-23 06:46:26 made it "East" Asian, since I don't think we're including India, the Middle East, and Central Asia in the "lucky 8" conversation.]

[Edited 2007-09-23 06:48:21]
 
sstsomeday
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
For the industry, all of the following are in the pipeline but not clear which order they'll arrive:
-supersonic biz jet
-737/A320 replacement
-777 upgrade/replacement
-New burst of ~100 seat RJ's

I suspect we will also see an A/C of near 747 size to come out with two engines, composite construction, and possibly a sightly wider fuselage, with possibly 3 aisles, though a single deck. Because in the decades ahead I expect we will need more fuel efficiency at the large end. (Then then upper deck could be used for inflight revenue space, such as berths.)

Is there any reason that an engine could not be built for such an A/C?

P.S. - Is this what people refer to as "Y3," or will "Y3" be whatever comes after the 787/350, no matter which category?
I come in peace
 
BlueSkys
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 7):
Boeing did not start the Boeing 787 with the 800 series, but the 300 series, Boeing 787-3.

Actually, the 783 is just a derivitave of of the 788. A shorter range version meant for much higher cycles. 788 is the first 787 model  Wink
 
tdscanuck
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:05 pm

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 12):
So is Boeing scrapping airline identifiers, ex. B767-332 for DL configured 767? Or will it be 787-832?

It'll still be around. Marketing and engineering are very different things.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
It is clear that Boeing will turn their attention to the Y1/737RS after the 787 and that Airbus will turn their attention to NSR after the A350.

It isn't clear that they won't do a 777 update first.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 15):
THe 787-8 was introduced first and will enter service first. Lower number doesn't mean it was first.

Correct. They used to go sequentially (the 737-300/400/500 are in chronological, not size, order). Now they go by size (although that often turns out to be chronological too).

Quoting Rampart (Reply 17):
The only place I've ever read this is on A.net, or in writings derived from A.net, and none from the manufacturers themselves, and I'm more convinced that the "lucky 8" attribution is more urban legend and coincidence than anything planned.

You don't have to search very far:
http://www.asian-nation.org/gambling.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)
http://afgen.com/china8.html

There are lots of others. Just Google on "number 8 lucky asian culture". When I used to live in Vancouver (large Asian population) it was very common to see developers shoehorn "8" into the address any way they could...*far* out of proportion to what you'd expect just by sequential numbering.

Quoting Rampart (Reply 17):
isn't pandering to superstition a little insulting for something so high-tech in one of the most sophisticated businesses on the planet?

If it sells airplanes, no.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 18):
I suspect we will also see an A/C of near 747 size to come out with two engines, composite construction, and possibly a sightly wider fuselage, with possibly 3 aisles, though a single deck. Because in the decades ahead I expect we will need more fuel efficiency at the large end. (Then then upper deck could be used for inflight revenue space, such as berths.)

Is there any reason that an engine could not be built for such an A/C?

Technically, no. Economically, it's probably a non-starter for many years to come. The number of units for an airplane that large will be very small for a very long time, so it would be hard for a manufacturer to recover their development costs.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 18):

P.S. - Is this what people refer to as "Y3," or will "Y3" be whatever comes after the 787/350, no matter which category?

Y3 is a specific airplane that was studied as part of Project Yellowstone at Boeing. It's like a 787, only larger. The successor to the 777/747 may or may not be the commercial descendant of Y3. However, on a.net you often see people use "Y3" to refer to whatever replaces the 777.

Tom.
 
astuteman
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 4):
A380 was picked, I assume, to reflect the significant jump over the A340 (roughly the same dimensions but double decks)

The "8" in the A380 was picked to reflect the fact that it's a full double-decker.......

Regards
 
zvezda
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:24 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 20):
It isn't clear that they won't do a 777 update first.

Boeing frequency release minor updates to the 777 and will continue to do so. As for any sort of major update like that from the 777-300 to the 777-300ER, it's never going to happen. For about the same money, Boeing could develop a new wing for the 787 and produce 787s up to 777-300ER size with better payload/range performance and much, much better economics.
 
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scbriml
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 2):
Airbus allegedly jumped from A340 to A380-800 for this reason.

No, the whole "8 is lucky in Asia" thing is overplayed.

As the Astute one correctly points out, Airbus selected A380 to represent the double-deck layout. The -800 was also selected to represent a mature aircraft from day one (i.e. not one than started as a -100 and grew/developed from there.) At the time, I doubt they appreciated quite how mature it would be at EIS.  blush 
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speedygonzales
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 20):
There are lots of others. Just Google on "number 8 lucky asian culture". When I used to live in Vancouver (large Asian population) it was very common to see developers shoehorn "8" into the address any way they could...*far* out of proportion to what you'd expect just by sequential numbering.

The front desk phone number where I work is xx88xx88, and some of our asian customers believe we paid a truckload of money to get that number, when we infact just happened get it assigned when the company started  Smile
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BlueSky1976
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808".



Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
The Boeing 807 would be much more likely than the Boeing 808.

OB1504 took the words right out of my mouth. IMO it makes much more sense for Boeing to continue with the "xx7" model designation, as it is their trademark product branding. Therefore, rather than going with "808" or "818", they should go with "807", "817", etc. It looks better and sounds much better, too.

One thing I would like to see is either Airbus or Boeing going back to the best ever type designation that the British invented: the model name followed the "mark no.". Nothing sounds more elegant than "Dreamliner Mark One" or "Worldliner Mark Two".
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rampart
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 20):
You don't have to search very far:
http://www.asian-nation.org/gambling.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)
http://afgen.com/china8.html

There are lots of others. Just Google on "number 8 lucky asian culture". When I used to live in Vancouver (large Asian population) it was very common to see developers shoehorn "8" into the address any way they could...*far* out of proportion to what you'd expect just by sequential numbering.

Sure, superstitious numbers are found in many cultures. Look at the avoidance of 13, at airport gates, floor numbers in elevators, and highways. Thanks for the links, but I'm still unconvinced this is anything beyond coincidence for recent aircraft, and if it happens to look fortuitous, well, whatever works. Olympics? Beijing and Shanghai have been trying to land them for quite some time, Beijing was "lucky" enough to get them in 2008. So, they'll play it up. You think they would have declined an invitation for 2004 or 2012? Gambling and sports? Not the same league as manufacturing. Real estate and addresses? I consider that field closer to witchcraft, and the use of superstition is not surprising!  Smile

But still no mention from the manufacturers of using -8 or 800 or x8x for purposes of luck. Maybe they did but wouldn't admit it. I agree with Scbriml that the notion has been overplayed here.

-Rampart
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 25):
IMO it makes much more sense for Boeing to continue with the "xx7" model designation, as it is their trademark product branding.

I have to disagree with you. How do you think its XX7? You're forgetting about the first 7.

Boeing's trademark is / was 7 ___ 7 , with the dual sevens always constant and the middle number signifying the plane model.

808 rolls of the tongue much better than 807. 888 is the ultimate. Y3 could be the 888 , The Triple 8, , the natural successor to the Triple 7.
 
Drahnreb
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:50 am

Airbus:

A360 or A370 to close the gap between A350 and A380
 
zvezda
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Drahnreb (Reply 28):
A360 or A370 to close the gap between A350 and A380

That gap is not a lack of supply (as Boeing have an offering) but a lack of demand. Nothing with more than 400 seats is selling in significant numbers. There is no point in developing anything larger than an A350-1000.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:16 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Nope. I'll bet Boeing goes with "808". The interesting thing will be to see how Airbus responds to that.

I suspect 797 will be used first; 808 will follow right after ... then 818, 828, 838, etc.  Smile
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Braybuddy
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:13 am

I'm sticking my neck out here and reckon Boeing will go for a 7007 designation rather than an 808. It's one way of keeping the traditional 7 (the other would be the 171, 272, 373 etc, which doesn't look appealing at all). Although they will go for the 797 before this.

The only other possibility is to retain the current designations for their various aircraft, even if they are completely new designs. In other words, a 737 replacement, even though it is a completely new aircraft, might still retain the designation 737, with maybe a -1000 suffix. Come to think of it, that sounds more likely than any of the other options.

As for Airbus, I reckon they missed the boat altogether. Seeing that the first model, the A300, was originally a 300 seater, I reckon their range should reflect (roughly) the number of seats in that model, eg, the A320 should be the A100, the A300 the A300 (naturally) and the A380 the A500. The current system is a mess.
 
BlueSkys
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:24 am

What about Boeing using letters in the middle of the 7__7 designation? 7C7, 7X7, 7Z7. I think i would like to see that more than anything.
'
 
sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:26 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
I'm sticking my neck out here and reckon Boeing will go for a 7007 designation

I actually like that idea, very cool. But, isn't it too many numbers. I dont think it will work because saying the " oh oh" will be confusing over ATC / radio etc.
 
zvezda
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 31):
As for Airbus, I reckon they missed the boat altogether. Seeing that the first model, the A300, was originally a 300 seater, I reckon their range should reflect (roughly) the number of seats in that model, eg, the A320 should be the A100, the A300 the A300 (naturally) and the A380 the A500. The current system is a mess.

Huh? How is it any more of a mess than the Boeing system? Both are arbitrary and both work fine.
 
OB1504
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 20):
Correct. They used to go sequentially (the 737-300/400/500 are in chronological, not size, order). Now they go by size (although that often turns out to be chronological too).

This also explains why we never saw a 757/767/777-100, since those designations were saved for any possible shrinks.

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 27):
I have to disagree with you. How do you think its XX7? You're forgetting about the first 7.

Boeing's trademark is / was 7 ___ 7 , with the dual sevens always constant and the middle number signifying the plane model.

So the Boeing 247 and 367 mean nothing, then? Boeing didn't go with "808" (or any designation ending with "8") for the then-7E7, like many thought they would, and I continue to doubt that they will ever use the 808 model number.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 32):
What about Boeing using letters in the middle of the 7__7 designation? 7C7, 7X7, 7Z7. I think i would like to see that more than anything.

Boeing's always used letters for temporary designations (the 7N7 became the 757, the 7X7 became the 767, the 7E7 became the 787, and so on and so forth), so, in a way, they already use this system.

[Edited 2007-09-23 20:56:40]
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 33):
But, isn't it too many numbers. I dont think it will work because saying the " oh oh" will be confusing over ATC / radio etc.

I don't think it's anything that ATC couldn't get used to. Don't they just use the flight number, and state whether it's "heavy" if it's a widebody anyway?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 34):
Huh? How is it any more of a mess than the Boeing system? Both are arbitrary and both work fine.

Everyone who is remotely interested in aircraft knows that with every new Boeing model the middle digit increases by one. Okay, it doesn't signify anything, but there are at most half a dozen Boeing models in production at any one time, so it's easy to follow.

On the other hand, Airbus started off with the A300, which roughly represented the capacity of the aircraft, then followed that with an A310, which was smaller, then an A320, which was smaller again, then later came the A321, A319 and A318, which weren't new aircraft, just a stretch and shortened versions of the A320.

The A330 and A340 seemed logical enough, as they followed-on from the A300 series, but there was no logic whatsoever to designating their VLA the A380 (apart from wanting it to appeal to Asian carriers). A500 would have been a much more logical (and appealing) designation, given the size of the plane. I did read that they wanted to keep the A350 and A360 designation for new mid-size aircraft, but they had a problem with using a 7, so that's why they skipped to A380, which apparently they reckoned would appeal to Asian carriers.
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:02 am

I see a very different direction than everybody else in this thread in civil aviation in the next 50 years.

During the last decades passenger numbers have increased at an incredible rate, today everybody seems to be flying everywhere on rock-bottom $29 fares. In my opinion civil aviation is a bubble waiting to burst, fares can't always be as low as they tend to be today, oil prices are rising steadily, but airfares have only gone down within the last decades. Most trips are absolutely useless today, why does everybody have to fly everywhere, guess what, 30 years ago people drove their cars or took the train to the beach or the mountains, I doubt that many americans will fly to Cancun or British to Malaga or Germans to Mallorca when the fares go up significantly in the near future.

We have oil for maybe another 40 years at today's consumption, but this is the theory because the less there is the higher the price, so consumption will go down (supply and demand).

Now there is no other way than petrol to power aircraft. All other ways have proven useless. Using alternative fossil fuels or biofuels are only temporary solutions. Using oil from plants (biodiesel and such) is a big pile of bs anyway, it might be fashionable today but you need too much land to grow this.

The only reliable, cheap and clean source of energy is the sun, and you can't power a plane with it. But you can power trains and cars with solar power. (obviously the solar cells are NOT on the train or car but stationary)

All short or medium range flights that are not over water will be replaced by surface transport, it's only a matter of time. People will still fly on airplanes in 50 years, but it will be a very small elite that can afford it. Sort of like 80 years ago. Spotters at JFK will all wait for the one daily ten-seater to London.

So forget all your predictions about bigger and better and more fuel efficient (what good is a 5% improvement when the price for fuel goes up 30% during the same period). There ARE enough planes today. Whole fleets of new planes are bought nowadays and paid off within maybe 10 years. A bubble waiting to burst?

Bottom line: Most trips today are useless. You have to face it. It is hard for us because we all love planes. That's why we are here. Heck most of my own trips are useless, I even do mileage runs from time to time, what a phenomenal waste!

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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 37):
Now there is no other way than petrol to power aircraft. All other ways have proven useless.

You Forgot about cryogenic fuels, hydrogen. It has been done by Tupolev with natural gas and Hydrogen. The Tu-154 variant, the Tu-155.

Granted it is very expensive, but that will change. And hydrogen is a great fuel, especially used in cryogenic form it is safe, clean and efficient... and it comes from water!!! Once people put emphasis on developing hydrogen at reasonable rates that is going to be the next AVGAS, hands down.

Advantages, hydrogen is clean, powerful and it comes from water, byproduct after combustion is water vapor. Especially if you us the most efficient variant of Hydrogen which is Browns Gas.

Best of all the industry can use current engine design with hydrogen as a fuel.

[Edited 2007-09-24 01:29:51]
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 27):
I have to disagree with you. How do you think its XX7? You're forgetting about the first 7.

The Boeing tradition is for airliners to end in a 7 - it has been so since the 1930's. The Boeing 247 was one of the first modern airliners, the Stratoliner was the Boeing 307, and the Stratocruiser was the 377. The 7-7 series is merely the jet era implementation of that tradition. Two exceptions were the Boeing 367 (excl. -80) and the original Boeing 717 - both of which were military transport/tankers.

I would hope that Boeing would maintain that tradition and perhaps move on the the 17-7 designation for a new generation of subsonic airliners and the 27-7 designaton for a new generation of supersonic airliners. That way the Boeing 2707 could rise again.
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:14 am

The main reason for thwe 747-800 Designation is because the aircraft shares alot of it's new technology with the 787.

Robbie
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zvezda
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:23 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
Everyone who is remotely interested in aircraft knows that with every new Boeing model the middle digit increases by one.

717

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 37):
During the last decades passenger numbers have increased at an incredible rate, today everybody seems to be flying everywhere on rock-bottom $29 fares. In my opinion civil aviation is a bubble waiting to burst, fares can't always be as low as they tend to be today, oil prices are rising steadily, but airfares have only gone down within the last decades.

Speculators are not buying airline tickets and thereby bidding the price ... down. No speculators, no bubble.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 37):
Whole fleets of new planes are bought nowadays and paid off within maybe 10 years. A bubble waiting to burst?

No, no one is buying whole new fleets to dump them in ten years. The fastest of all airlines is probably SQ, who typically dump their aircraft after twelve years. NW are planning to keep their DC-9s flying until they are 40+ years old. Again, no speculator, no bubble.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 37):

Bottom line: Most trips today are useless. You have to face it. It is hard for us because we all love planes. That's why we are here. Heck most of my own trips are useless, I even do mileage runs from time to time, what a phenomenal waste!

The percentage of flyer who have ever gone on a mileage run is less than 0.001%. Don't judge everyone by your own behavior.
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:57 pm

My idea on the future Boeing designator system is to modify the DC series moniker (Douglas Commercial) into the BC series (Boeing Commercial). Start with BC-1, then go from there. There's already a BC-17 on paper, ready to be built if anyone wants one.
Regards.
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OB1504
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:31 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
717

I didn't post that, BrayBuddy did.

IIRC, Boeing originally used the "717" designation for the military C-135, but eventually decided to drop it and just use "C-135" instead, leaving "717" unused. Then Boeing's purchase of McDonnell Douglas and the MD-95 came along, and the "717" designator was revived.
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:39 pm

I supposed 7107 might work, as the last Boeing jet of the current era. After all, the 797 would replace the 737, the 787 would be flying, the 7107 would replace the 747 and 777, and beyond that, what is Boeing going to build? Nothing entirely new for 20+ years, and by then, I sure hope there is such a new concept in flight that Boeing isn't going to want to just use another xxx7 designator but something entirely new.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 43):
Then Boeing's purchase of McDonnell Douglas and the MD-95 came along, and the "717" designator was revived.

I think it also is partly because they didn't want to use 787 or 797, which signify new and larger. The 717 was a void, it was the smallest plane "Boeing" would make, and it also had the subtle effect of telling everyone that it is "insignificant" to Boeing, not worthy of being the "next in a great line of Boeing products." An insult, of sorts.

Buy our 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777. And oh, yeah, we have some 717s if you want em.  Wink
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 27):
I have to disagree with you. How do you think its XX7? You're forgetting about the first 7.

Boeing's trademark is / was 7 ___ 7 , with the dual sevens always constant and the middle number signifying the plane model.

You're wrong. Boeing's trademark was always "three digits, seven at the end" naming scheme for all commercial airliners - at least for land-based ones, not the flying boats. See: 247, 307, 377, etc.
Btw "eight-oh-seven" rolls off my tongue much better than "eight-oh-eight" or "eight-zero-eight". Besides, I doubt Boeing would risk a lawsuit from Roland over the name of their most famous synthesizers - the Roland 808 (which I believe is trademarked).

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 44):
I supposed 7107 might work

It won't. See above.
For the longest time I thought the next logical step would be what you're proposing, however I believe Boeing will stick to the tradition of three digits in the model name. So after 797 (737RS a.k.a. Y1) we'll most likely see 807-8 and 807-9 (a.k.a. Y3).
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 43):
I didn't post that, BrayBuddy did.

I apologize for my carelessness.
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 37):
Now there is no other way than petrol to power aircraft. All other ways have proven useless. Using alternative fossil fuels or biofuels are only temporary solutions. Using oil from plants (biodiesel and such) is a big pile of bs anyway, it might be fashionable today but you need too much land to grow this.

There are several ways other than petrol to power aircraft. Coal and NG are the obvious ones and they work just fine today (lousy environmentally, but just fine technically and economically). Biofuels don't have to be derived from cropland...you can do it with algae (no land required) or one of several varieties of "weed" that grow in poor soils (land required, but not land that you'd farm on anyway).

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 37):
Bottom line: Most trips today are useless.

That doesn't mean anything that you can act on. Most trips of any kind are useless, in the sense that they don't absolutely have to be taken. But it's not up to a government (or industry) to decide what's a useful trip and what isn't...you set the price at what it costs to provide the service and the passengers will decide if it's worth it.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 35):
Everyone who is remotely interested in aircraft knows that with every new Boeing model the middle digit increases by one.

717

Which came after the 707 and before the 727...not sure what you're getting at here.

Tom.
 
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 45):
Boeing would risk a lawsuit from Roland over the name of their most famous synthesizers - the Roland 808 (which I believe is trademarked).

IIRC, numbers per se, cannot be trademarked or copyrighted. Yes, you can make "Roland 808" a trademark, but then "Boeing 808" would be a completely different trademark. Plus, it's not likely anyone is going to confuse a large passenger plane with a musical instrument if they refer to either in the vernacular "808".

Reporter: "So how did you develop the new album?"
Artist: "The basic music was created on an 808."
Reporter: "What? On Boeing's new plane?!?"

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 44):
I supposed 7107 might work

I quite like that, a seven-ten-seven, followed by the seven-eleven-seven (doubles as a convenience store), but becomes a bit of a tongue-twister if they get to the seven-seventeen-seven.
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RE: A380,A350,748,787 Whats Next? & New Plane #'s?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 41):
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 36):
Everyone who is remotely interested in aircraft knows that with every new Boeing model the middle digit increases by one.

717

The 717 is the descendant of the DC-9, a Douglas model, dating from the early 60s. Like I said in the post, "every new Boeing model".

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