El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:59 pm

There's a 777-236 in front of the main LY hangar in TLV.

Suffered from major mechanical problem before a flight to LHR last Tuesday which made it being grounded for 5 days now.

Currently there are BA's technicians working on it as it has GE90 engines and LY knows only Trents....

Anyone with more info?
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:44 pm

No idea I'm afraid.

*Turns on joke mode*

Maybe it's in exchange for the LY one at LHR
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:00 pm

Done some digging.

G-VIIX operated Tuesday (18th) daily 777 flight; BA165 LHR-TLV.

G-VIIX then returned without incident on BA164 TLV-LHR, also Tuesday 18th.

She then went on to operate BA157 the next day (19th) LHR-KWI.

G-VIIW (aircraft in question) operated BA165 LHR-TLV on Monday 17th.

AFAIK there was no BA164 back to LHR due to the aircraft going tech.

On Sept 19th there were no additional BA flights TLV-LHR

G-YMML operated BA164 and BA165 (772)

G-BNWD operated BA163 and BA162 (762).

Hope this helps.
 
El Al 001
Topic Author
Posts: 978
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 1999 11:50 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:21 pm

Lol  Smile Thanx...

LY managed doing it in 3 days...

There were no flights from FRI morning to SAT eve. in TLV because it was Yom Kippur (That is the only day each year when the airport is closed for 32 hours...)

Engine no. 1 is now surrounded by scaffolding and the casing of the engine are missing (On the ground)
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting El Al 001 (Reply 3):
There were no flights from FRI morning to SAT eve. in TLV because it was Yom Kippur (That is the only day each year when the airport is closed for 32 hours...)

I assume this will also have halted the repair process.
 
theginge
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:05 pm

I think they have been waiting for the engine manufacturer to get a spare engine over to TLV
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:40 pm

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 2):
G-YMML operated BA164 and BA165 (772)

G-BNWD operated BA163 and BA162 (762).

Hope this helps.

G-BNWD is a B763ER.

It is exactly for reasons such as this that BA did not stick with GE after they were more or less forced to take them on the first batch of B772s. They're good engines but they are not in the same league as Rolls Royce Trents.
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
swiftski
Posts: 1837
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:19 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 6):
G-BNWD is a B763ER.

Correct.

I copy pasted the second line, just changed the details. I made an error on the 762; sorry about that.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 6):
It is exactly for reasons such as this that BA did not stick with GE after they were more or less forced to take them on the first batch of B772s. They're good engines but they are not in the same league as Rolls Royce Trents.

Utter rubbish...while I prefer RR's over GE, the GE's have more than proven their capabilities/engine reliabilities...including the older GE's....

if you have some data to corroborate you points then show them...otherwise your comments are about as worthless as they get....
"Up the Irons!"
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:39 am

This raises the question of who does CO's maintenance in TLV. It seems a little hard to imagine that BA would have to go to such lengths to do an engine change. Has CO ever had to do an engine change in TLV and are there in any better shape should something like this occur?
 
hovitzer
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:51 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:58 am

Unfortunattly, Due working in the cargo office, I don't have complete answers regarding handling with the frustrating pax. In other cases of cancelled flights most of the pax got on alternative flights (LY, LH, LX, 5U, IZ), others on the next scehduled flight and all the rest in hotels.
 
theginge
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:16 am

It is not as simple as sending a 747-400 down to TLV to pick up the pax. First of all one has to be available for a day and a half as the flight crew for that would not be in TLV so would have to take rest in TLV before coming back. I expect the best option was to disperse people on other carriers. Happens if one of BA's other aircraft goes tech downroute and there is not a spare to send down there.

With regards to it taking a long time to do an engine change it often takes this sort of time if a similar thing happens at a remote african airfield. At a lot of these airfields there are no hangers so the change has to take place outside, also there can be no suitable lifting equipment so the engine has to be hoisted up and down from the pylons.
 
hovitzer
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:51 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Theginge (Reply 17):
With regards to it taking a long time to do an engine change it often takes this sort of time if a similar thing happens at a remote african airfield. At a lot of these airfields there are no hangers so the change has to take place outside, also there can be no suitable lifting equipment so the engine has to be hoisted up and down from the pylons.

After talking to one of the English engeenirs down the aircraft today it came clear to me that the only thing that delays the replacement is the fact that LY is not using GE-90's and therefore there are no spare parts availble.
Nothing to with african airfields or so.
 
BAW076
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:14 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:43 am

I hope she (G-VIIW) is ok.. She flew me to New York last September! I'm rather fond of her!!
N754AN (x2), G-CPEL, G-MIDE, G-BPEC, G-BZHC, EI-DCH, LN-KKN, G-VIIW, G-BNLT, G-DBCA, G-MEDE, G-DBCE, G-MIDP.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4309
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:46 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
Has CO ever had to do an engine change in TLV

Not yet (knock wood).
You can't cure stupid
 
theginge
Posts: 496
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:56 am

Quoting Hovitzer (Reply 18):
After talking to one of the English engeenirs down the aircraft today it came clear to me that the only thing that delays the replacement is the fact that LY is not using GE-90's and therefore there are no spare parts availble.
Nothing to with african airfields or so.

Didn't say it was to do with African airfields, just using it to illustrate a point of some engine changes being far from simple jobs.
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):
Utter rubbish...while I prefer RR's over GE, the GE's have more than proven their capabilities/engine reliabilities...including the older GE's....

if you have some data to corroborate you points then show them...otherwise your comments are about as worthless as they get....

BA decided not to operate any more GE90s for a reason. Trent actually has higher fuel burn than the equivalent GE-90 due to the triple spool design but the teething problems with the original GE90s were enough to ensure that no more were ordered. Here we have a case in point, a brand new GE90 suffering a catastrophic failure requiring complete replacement. I can say with 100% confidence that this has never happened on a BA B772 fitted with RR Trents. For BA at least, the Trent is infinitely more reliable than the GE90 even if it is slightly thirstier on the longer missions.

[Edited 2007-09-24 01:22:23]
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
sunrisevalley
Posts: 5066
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:26 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 22):
Here we have a case in point, a brand new GE90 suffering a catastrophic failure requiring complete replacement. I can say with 100% confidence that this has never happened on a BA B772 fitted with RR Trents. F

Presumably a brand new overhaul. Statistically it is a very long shot but I am sure it is within the realm of possibility.
How do you explain NZ who operates 16 Trents having to remove two within less than one year of service. These were new engines.
I laud your patriotism but engines are devices subject to a all sorts of mechanical issues. I firmly believe no engine manufacturer has a lock on absolute zero removals from the wing within 5000hours.
 
aa87
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:18 am

This is one of those rare threads touching on Israel that doesn't veer off into politics and other assorted irrelevancies. So take this question in the facetious manner intended: how did BA get away with buying GE to start with, and how did El Al get away with NOT buying GE ?? maybe there's hope for free trade and free markets after all ...
 
Orion737
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:14 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:21 am

BA seems to have had numerous 777 GE problems over their operational lives with the carrier. Do I recall one being scrapped recently?
 
BAW076
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:14 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:57 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 25):
BA seems to have had numerous 777 GE problems over their operational lives with the carrier. Do I recall one being scrapped recently?

The only one that has been scrapped that has flown with BA was G-ZZZE. This aircraft was a non-ER 772 with GE90 powerplants.

It's history:

12/01/1996 British Airways G-ZZZE
22/07/2002 Boeing N703BA
13/01/2003 Khalifa Airways 7T-VKQ Stored at Frankfurt 16/02/03
01/03/2004 Varig PP-VRD Stored at MZJ 04/2006 - rereg N703BA 08/2006 - Flown to ARG 12/2006 for part-out and scrapping

I think this is the one you were thinking of.

Chris  wave 
N754AN (x2), G-CPEL, G-MIDE, G-BPEC, G-BZHC, EI-DCH, LN-KKN, G-VIIW, G-BNLT, G-DBCA, G-MEDE, G-DBCE, G-MIDP.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 22):
but the teething problems with the original GE90s were enough to ensure that no more were ordered.



Quoting WAH64D (Reply 22):
For BA at least, the Trent is infinitely more reliable than the GE90 even if it is slightly thirstier on the longer missions.



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 23):
I laud your patriotism but engines are devices subject to a all sorts of mechanical issues. I firmly believe no engine manufacturer has a lock on absolute zero removals from the wing within 5000hours.

 checkmark ...correlation doesn't mean causality....the GE's have been shown to be just as reliable as the Trents.......the fact BA has had a few problems doesn't mean too much in terms of comparing both engine manufacturers...
"Up the Irons!"
 
bingo
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:08 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 22):
Here we have a case in point, a brand new GE90 suffering a catastrophic failure requiring complete replacement.

I think youre using the term catastrophic a little too liberally. You better watch out or you might find yourself working on CNN as an "Airline Expert" before too long! Big grin

There was no uncontained explosion, no hull breach, nothing to signify even a remote chance for a loss of life. If anything, the engine performed as it was supposed to. It spooled up, called in sick and promptly/safely shutdown. The fact that no parts were onsite and the low cycle count on this build were probably cause enough for them to pull the engine, not a "catastrophic failure". For all we know a piece of FOD got sucked up only to make fireworks out of one of the compressors.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 23):
I laud your patriotism but engines are devices subject to a all sorts of mechanical issues

 thumbsup  I think his love of the Trents is very warming but you cant let love cloud your judgement...
 
WAH64D
Posts: 744
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:14 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 23):

Presumably a brand new overhaul. Statistically it is a very long shot but I am sure it is within the realm of possibility.
How do you explain NZ who operates 16 Trents having to remove two within less than one year of service. These were new engines.
I laud your patriotism but engines are devices subject to a all sorts of mechanical issues. I firmly believe no engine manufacturer has a lock on absolute zero removals from the wing within 5000hours.

Of course you are correct. One cycle and not even a very long one at that is not exactly good news though. My bet would be FOD. Failing that its poor quality control on GE's part. BA has either been unlucky with their GE90s or very lucky with the Trent 800s as there is a definite gap in reliability and mx time on both engines with Trent being the clear winner.

Quoting Bingo (Reply 28):
The fact that no parts were onsite and the low cycle count on this build were probably cause enough for them to pull the engine, not a "catastrophic failure". For all we know a piece of FOD got sucked up only to make fireworks out of one of the compressors.

FOD is a strong possibility. An engine event requiring complete shutdown even if contained can be termed as a Catastrophic failure. In the airline business it has a very different meaning than CNNs take. However, you must watch a fair bit of CNN as you seem to know their mindset. I personally wouldn't watch such drivel. Big grin
I AM the No-spotalotacus.
 
jetlife2
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:32 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 22):
BA decided not to operate any more GE90s for a reason. Trent actually has higher fuel burn than the equivalent GE-90 due to the triple spool design but the teething problems with the original GE90s were enough to ensure that no more were ordered. Here we have a case in point, a brand new GE90 suffering a catastrophic failure requiring complete replacement. I can say with 100% confidence that this has never happened on a BA B772 fitted with RR Trents. For BA at least, the Trent is infinitely more reliable than the GE90 even if it is slightly thirstier on the longer missions.

Sorry but you are misinformed in several respects. Boeing data shows both engines have very good reliability, statistically the better of the two is the GE90, but both are good. BA propulsion engineering leadership is extremely satisfied with GE90 reliability. I would quote their words directly but that is not for this forum. The engine was not brand new and could not be since there have not been any deliveries for some time; the failure was not catastrophic; etc. etc. You are correct about the relative fuel burn though.
My views are not necessarily the views of the GE Company
 
BAW076
Posts: 671
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:14 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:52 am

For those who are interested, G-VIIW is now back in regular service.

Arrived back at LHR last night from TLV, Flight number BA9157E, and flew back out in service this morning on the BA073 LHR-AUH-MCT.

Chris  wave 
N754AN (x2), G-CPEL, G-MIDE, G-BPEC, G-BZHC, EI-DCH, LN-KKN, G-VIIW, G-BNLT, G-DBCA, G-MEDE, G-DBCE, G-MIDP.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting BAW076 (Reply 25):
Arrived back at LHR last night from TLV, Flight number BA9157E, and flew back out in service this morning on the BA073 LHR-AUH-MCT.

Did the crew that was originally supposed to fly it to LHR remain in TLV for a few days, or did they ferry in another crew to take her back to LHR?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
LXA340
Posts: 1113
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 26):

Did the crew that was originally supposed to fly it to LHR remain in TLV for a few days, or did they ferry in another crew to take her back to LHR?

That would've been a nice holiday  Wink I would assume they were operating the next scheduled flight with the B772 back to LHR,so instead of 24 hours layover they got 48, so there was always one spare crew in TLV to take the plane home once it is repaired I gues?
 
amirs
Posts: 1184
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:20 am

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 26):
Did the crew that was originally supposed to fly it to LHR remain in TLV for a few days, or did they ferry in another crew to take her back to LHR?

I dont think you can ferry a crew, you can ferry an a/c or deadhead a crew.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:09 am

Quoting Jetlife2 (Reply 24):
BA propulsion engineering leadership is extremely satisfied with GE90 reliability. I would quote their words directly but that is not for this forum. The engine was not brand new and could not be since there have not been any deliveries for some time;

It may not have been brand new, but had accumualted just ONE flight since overhaul by GE, the oubound sector to TLV was its first since shop visit.
This AOG was protracted for two reasons. First there was problems hiring an Antonov to ship the engine to TLV, and second when the freighter was available, TLV was shut due to the Yom Kippur holiday.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1266
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting El Al 001 (Thread starter):
Currently there are BA's technicians working on it as it has GE90 engines and LY knows only Trents....

bad luck for BA since they usually fly RR powered aircraft!
When I doubt... go running!
 
OzTech
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:08 pm

RE: BA's G-VIIW (777) Grounded At TLV

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
Utter rubbish...while I prefer RR's over GE, the GE's have more than proven their capabilities/engine reliabilities...including the older GE's....

if you have some data to corroborate you points then show them...otherwise your comments are about as worthless as they get....

Who needs data... If you are a mechanic and have worked on both GE and RR then the data speaks for itself... Everything you do on a GE takes "at least" twice as long..
RR got it right.. design and build a new engine.. GE just rehashed an old CF6.. bigger fan, bigger hot end.. Bigger fan and compressor section to power the massive amount of bleed air needed to cool the hot end = massive amounts of restrictive ducts, tubes and elec harnesses...
RR may build more thirsty and heavier engines but the reduced down time ( labour hours ) for maintenance more than makes up for that.. 4 or 5 fold.. Just try changing one....
Do the math...
No defect too big, no defect too small, nothing in the log --- No defect at all !!

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