Orion737
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AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:46 am

TWA did it for so many years to LGW. I know AA dropped it but now they are refocusing on long haul routes, any chance of this route coming back? It seems a major US city not to have a LON connection.
 
elmothehobo
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:56 am

With the reorganization of the London route network, aircraft shortages and an uncertain market, it won't be for awhile.
 
777STL
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting Orion737 (Thread starter):
TWA did it for so many years to LGW. I know AA dropped it but now they are refocusing on long haul routes, any chance of this route coming back? It seems a major US city not to have a LON connection.

It won't happen without the State of MO, the city of St. Louis, and/or a major local company subsidizing a part of it ala GSK and RDU. I don't see it happening anytime soon, STL-LGW really struggled the last years of its existance, especially during the winter. The reality is, is its quite redundant with DFW being 550 miles away and ORD only being 250 miles away.
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Orion737
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:04 am

Surprisingly then that TWA continued with the route to LGW for many, many years. In fact, it was their last remaining route to the UK.

Also why doesnt AA see the potential of feeding to this city and their other flights out of STL, much the same way TWA did.
 
moman
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 2):
It won't happen without the State of MO, the city of St. Louis, and/or a major local company subsidizing a part of it ala GSK and RDU. I don't see it happening anytime soon, STL-LGW really struggled the last years of its existance, especially during the winter. The reality is, is its quite redundant with DFW being 550 miles away and ORD only being 250 miles away.

There's a lot of chatter recently about exactly that - state subsidies to AA to provide a LON flight. I really believe it will happen in 2008/2009 that STL will again see a LGW flight, and who knows it could get LHR, but probably not. STN has also been mentioned as AA was needing a launching point for that airport IIRC. CDG is probably out of the question for now.

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
Also why doesnt AA see the potential of feeding to this city and their other flights out of STL, much the same way TWA did.

AA has optimized their STL operation and adding more flights there isn't a high priority, especially given their shortage of aircraft and other, better opportunities. It will happen again one day and I suspect it will be sooner rather than later, but who really knows?
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jetjeanes
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:33 am

It would be nice to see someone come in and make stl a hub again thats worthwhile,but most mainline carriers have hubs already in place with in a certain radius.. I cant think of anyone off hand that could pounce on it like twa did.
i can see for 80 miles
 
moman
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 5):
It would be nice to see someone come in and make stl a hub again thats worthwhile,but most mainline carriers have hubs already in place with in a certain radius.. I cant think of anyone off hand that could pounce on it like twa did.

Not gonna happen. One, as you pointed out there just isn't another legacy carrier that needs a large hub. Two, AA is a dominant player with WN co-existing well. FL is picking up some here and there, and while there is some debate as to what extent AA would defend STL is it came under full competitive attack, I tend to believe that STL plays an important role in the AA network and would be defended quite strongly. STL is like the old TWA 717s, they didn't look too great when they were on property, but once they were gone AA was sorry  Wink
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777STL
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:51 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
Surprisingly then that TWA continued with the route to LGW for many, many years. In fact, it was their last remaining route to the UK.

I think if AA put some effort into it, while backed by some deep pockets, the route could do well. As MoMan noted, AA didn't really give the route a chance, AA absorbed TW and most if not all existing ex-TW routes became bastard stepchildren to their AA counterparts.

From an airplane geek standpoint, it'd be great to see a STL-LON route again. It would most certainly mark the return of scheduled 767 service.
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LambertMan
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:51 am

Rest assured it won't happen under the current regime.

I think they'd rather go back to flying MD-11's than giving St. Louis any attention....
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:41 pm

STL-LGW will not come. Never.

I would not rule out St. Louis-Heathrow, but it is far, far down the priority list, because when AA gets more Heathrow slots, they are going to go to adding more Heathrow flights to Miami, JFK, and Dallas. I would not rule out St. Louis-Heathrow in the long-term future.
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B752OS
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
I would not rule out St. Louis-Heathrow, but it is far, far down the priority list, because when AA gets more Heathrow slots, they are going to go to adding more Heathrow flights to Miami, JFK, and Dallas. I would not rule out St. Louis-Heathrow in the long-term future.

Are the JFK flights to fend off DL? How well do you think AA wil do against DL in JFK with DL having a big international expansion.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:56 pm

Quoting B752OS (Reply 10):
How well do you think AA wil do against DL in JFK with DL having a big international expansion.

AA is planning a little expansion of their own at JFK (nothing to the extent of DL, but there will be significant expansion of JFK-Europe on AA in the next three years, nonetheless). AA also has far superior terminal facilities at JFK.

With Heathrow opening up, AA is of course going to want to provide as much a frequency advantage on the JFK-LON route as they can. Unfortunately, they will be reducing JFK-LHR to 5x daily this spring because they were unable to acquire a slot from Luxair for DFW-LHR.
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aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:29 am

I would bet my money on AA eventually surpassing DL at JFK. If and when DL begins their terminal renovations or whatever the scope of their program will be for JFK, they are going to loose space without a doubt. AA offers so much more at JFK with the new Terminal in place. Arpey is a NY'er by birth and seems to have it in him to make it a very special place.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 12):
I would bet my money on AA eventually surpassing DL at JFK.

AA is already larger at JFK than Delta.
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B752OS
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 12):
I would bet my money on AA eventually surpassing DL at JFK.

AA is already larger at JFK than Delta.

Well how about Latin America. If DL starts a huge push as part of their big announcement, could AA be in trouble as being the largest carrier to the region? Could ATL surpass MIA as the largest U.S. gateway to Latin America?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:01 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 14):
If DL starts a huge push as part of their big announcement, could AA be in trouble as being the largest carrier to the region? Could ATL surpass MIA as the largest U.S. gateway to Latin America?

No, that is pretty laughable. While Delta will be a very, very strong number two, they will be nowhere near to being number one in the region. Atlanta cannot surpass Miami has the largest U.S. gateway to Latin America. Even if, hypothetically, Delta were to surpass American in operations to the region, Miami has dozens and dozens of Latin American airlines, while Atlanta has zero. Delta is nowhere near AA's size in the region. This winter American Airlines will have the same amount of daily flights between Miami and Sao Paulo than Delta will have between Atlanta/JFK and all of Brazil.

[Edited 2007-09-24 18:04:14]
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777STL
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:02 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 14):
Well how about Latin America. If DL starts a huge push as part of their big announcement, could AA be in trouble as being the largest carrier to the region? Could ATL surpass MIA as the largest U.S. gateway to Latin America?

Doubtful. DL is only half the size that AA is now in Latin America. I believe DL would have to poach a substantial number of current AA customers for this to work.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 12):
I would bet my money on AA eventually surpassing DL at JFK.

...at what?

Routes? Not likely
Capacity? They've long since been larger than DL at JFK.
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SkyyMaster
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting Orion737 (Reply 3):
Also why doesnt AA see the potential of feeding to this city and their other flights out of STL, much the same way TWA did.

IMO, St. Louis is not particularly high on AA's list pf priorities when it comes to growth, especially mainline growth, and specifically international growth. As pointed out, they are only 250 miles from O'Hare which has 5 current nonstops to LHR, and I think that number is 6 in the summer. Even though open skies will theoretically open up LHR, it will still be slot constrained, and I think AA will use those LHR slots for bigger cities and hubs. STL is in a bad place geographically for AA. It will never regain the prominence as a hub as it once was under TW, at least not by AA, and doubtfully anyone. I'm actually surprised they are growing it at all, even though most added service appears to be Eagle.
 
gilesdavies
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:00 am

I think the chances of a London to St Louis service with American are almost NIL!

They announced earlier this year the introduction of their new STN-JFK service, and I would have thought the starting of this service was a bit of a gamble given the unpredictable nature of flights launched from other London airports to the USA other than LHR... This service is due to go double daily, next summer...

What I am trying to point out is, that if they are willing to launch STN-JFK on a route already saturated with flights between London and New York, they must have more hope than being the sole operator on STL-LON.

If a 757 had the legs, this would be the only chance of the route starting up!
 
Humberside
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Unfortunately, they will be reducing JFK-LHR to 5x daily this spring because they were unable to acquire a slot from Luxair for DFW-LHR.

Do you know got the slot instead?
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aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:05 am

To clarify my earlier post...I meant International portfolio....destinations.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:35 am

The longer it takes ORD to complete its expansion, the better the chances that AA will add flights at STL. Even though the 3rd east-west runway is supposed to open in Q4 of 2008, that will allow AA to only increase operations by 40 to 50 departures a day.

No one knows when the 4th east-west runway will open, which is the runway that will truly allow AA, and UA, to start increasing operations substantially. If the continuing litigation keeps the 4th runway from opening until 2011 or later, AA would probably seriously think of increasing operations at STL, because ORD will remain focused on O&D traffic.

Whether that means that STL will gain any international service remains to be seen. I think AA will still set its schedule to move European traffic through ORD, DFW, JFK, and to a lesser extent, MIA
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Posibility Of LON-St Louis?

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 22):
I think AA will still set its schedule to move European traffic through ORD, DFW, JFK, and to a lesser extent, MIA

MIA will see much more European growth than DFW, although only JFK will see European traffic growth in the near future, other than Miami-Milan possibly launching next winter.
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