Carls
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Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:47 pm

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...out-a350-xwb-design-revisions.html


Interesting information, specially this part:

Flight International has learnt that the revelations were made to a gathering of around 100 representatives from existing XWB customers as well as potential clients - the latter including Air France, American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Lufthansa. The airframer held a two-day XWB seminar in Bordeaux in early September.


American Airlines and Delta Airlines this is getting much more interesting than I thought because Lufthansa and Air France isn't a surprise, but AA and DL are really a surprise to me.
 
Badge
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:24 pm

I for one will be highly surprised if they got for the A350 but they wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't at least look at the competing design. An order of 125 planes at $20 billion is a significant purchase no doubt and with Boeing's stake in Delta I find it hard to believe they can get a better deal on the A350.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Badge (Reply 1):

What stake percentage does Boeing has on DL?
 
khobar
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Carls (Thread starter):
American Airlines and Delta Airlines this is getting much more interesting than I thought because Lufthansa and Air France isn't a surprise, but AA and DL are really a surprise to me.

A free trip to Europe, to wine and dine on superb food and drink, get away from the spouse and kids for a bit - this comes as a surprise to you?  Wink
 
Clipper136
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting Carls (Thread starter):
but AA and DL are really a surprise to me

Both have operated widebody Airbus in the past (AA still has a large fleet), why would they not at least consider operating them again.
You can't beat the Experience.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 3):

Not really, I did not think about it. You are right......

Seriously, if they are there should be because they have showed some interest in the A350. Isn't a sight but it is something that make me thing about these airlines and Airbus relationship. I believe Airbus is trying hard to get AA or DL on board of the A350XWB, and both are good candidates. It's just my opinion.

[Edited 2007-09-25 17:39:37]
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 4):
Both have operated widebody Airbus in the past (AA still has a large fleet), why would they not at least consider operating them again.

Airbus bashers in A.Net have been saying that the final day will come first before AA or DL order any Airbus.
That is why I got surprised.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:49 am

DL and AA were probably there so they know what to expect from the boeing competition and tell boeing what they want the 777 replacement to do
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Carls (Reply 6):
Airbus bashers in A.Net have been saying that the final day will come first before AA or DL order any Airbus.

I'm no Airbus basher, but it ain't going to happen. It's more likely that AA will manage to have three consecutive days of 100% on-time ops out of ORD before they order Airbus
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
columba
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
I'm no Airbus basher, but it ain't going to happen. It's more likely that AA will manage to have three consecutive days of 100% on-time ops out of ORD before they order Airbus

Granted the relationship went sour after the New York crash but relationships can improve again. If Airbus is giving them a good deal and the aircraft fits their requirement then I don´t see a reason why AA would not order Airbus again same goes for Delta if they see the A350 as a good 767/777 replacement they would order it.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 9):
Granted the relationship went sour after the New York crash but relationships can improve again

The relationship went sour long before the NYC crash. It was all downhill as soon as Boeing and AA came to that 20 year exclusivity deal. Now, we all know the EU made them tear it up, but we also all know that it is still in place as a gentlemen's agreement. Why would AA walk away from the fantastic pricing they get with that deal?
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 10):
Why would AA walk away from the fantastic pricing they get with that deal?

For even more fantastc pricing on offer from Airbus??? An AA order would be a real feather in the cap for Airbus...
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columba
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 10):
Why would AA walk away from the fantastic pricing they get with that deal?

If they get an even better deal or an aircraft that might suit their needs better - I am not saying that the A350 will do so but hypothetically.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:10 am

With AA and DL maxing out at the 777-200ER right now - and likely only facing more competition, not less, in the future - the 787 family's size is likely a better fit for them then the A350's, which is why many of us are more confident in a Boeing order then an Airbus one.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:22 am

These companies are somewhat obligated to atleast review projects and ideas as it MAY be beneficial to them. Weather they follow through or not is two different things. Remember when Delta "reviewed" US's offer? They made this same statement. I still dont see DL making an Airbus purchase. AA is a different story (still unlikely).
What gets measured gets done.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Carls (Reply 6):
Airbus bashers in A.Net have been saying that the final day will come first before AA or DL order any Airbus.

Even if it was true, AA and DL would be remiss not to be informed about Airbus offerings. They may prefer Boeing, but they prefer good prices even more. wink 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 4):
Both have operated widebody Airbus in the past (AA still has a large fleet), why would they not at least consider operating them again.

DL was fairly quick to toss the A310's they got from PanAm, and didn't appear to like them much. AA followed up its lease of the A300s by buying 2-3 times as many competing 767s? Especially after there crash, there isn't much love between AA and Airbus... AA moved away from GE engines after Sioux City... they have a history of holding a grudge.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
For even more fantastc pricing on offer from Airbus??? An AA order would be a real feather in the cap for Airbus...

Do businesses operate to put feathers in their caps by offering ridiculously low prices, or do they operate to make money?

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 15):

Even if it was true, AA and DL would be remiss not to be informed about Airbus offerings. They may prefer Boeing, but they prefer good prices even more. wink

You're right. They're going to buy Boeing, but they can't very well negotiate without appearing interested in the competitor's product. It's just negotiation. I won't buy a GM car, but I still go and test-drive them when I'm car shopping. Want to know what is out there and have more leverage to negotiate. Every airline looks at every relevant aircraft. It just makes sense. NW is said to have looked at Sukhoi Superjet, think they are going to buy it?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
AA followed up its lease of the A300s by buying 2-3 times as many competing 767s?

The A300s serve a specific niche in AA's network - high-density (pax and cargo) short-haul services. Boeing doesn't offer a comparable model - the 767 carries less folks and (especially) payload and the 777 is far too large.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
AA moved away from GE engines after Sioux City... they have a history of holding a grudge.

UA lost a GE-powered bird at Sioux City, not AA.

[Edited 2007-09-25 23:36:39]
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:56 am

What does this thread have to with Ameicans relationship with Airbus?

The title says it is about the A350.

Will the switch to CF frames increase the cost?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting Carls (Reply 2):
What stake percentage does Boeing has on DL?

Boeing does not have a stake in DL. They own no DL shares. Boeing is a creditor to DL, that is very different.

Quoting Carls (Reply 5):
I believe Airbus is trying hard to get AA or DL on board of the A350XWB, and both are good candidates.

They're really not, and it's naive to think they are. The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
You're right. They're going to buy Boeing, but they can't very well negotiate without appearing interested in the competitor's product. It's just negotiation.

This is contradictory, so AA and DL has a "Gentleman Agreement" with Boeing, which make all Boeing fans sure they will order Boeing, but they are going to visit Airbus just to see what they can get from other supplier, even when they are more than sure they will order Boeing. It's only my self or someone else can see a contradiction here.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.

I think you miss the point, A350 isn't a &67 replacement, I agree with you. But A350 it is an excellent replacement for their 777.
 Wink
 
xtoler
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
I'm no Airbus basher, but it ain't going to happen. It's more likely that AA will manage to have three consecutive days of 100% on-time ops out of ORD before they order Airbus

They also say a cold day in hell too... and it's cold a lot at ORD!

Seriously, I think we may be past the days of customer loyalty, despite quality. A lot of it really should be up to the flight crews, they are the ones flying the equipment. I did like the on-line presentation of the 787 rollout and the customer survey at the end.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:52 am

It never hurts to go kick the tires and review the brochure listing all the cool amenities. Who knows, it could lead to a sale -- that's why dealers have lots. I'm sure AA and DL are doing the airline version of this. Its the american way!
 
boysteve
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:55 am

OK, lets consider the economics. Look at the strength of the US Dollar vs the €uro at the minute. It makes any Airbus product expensive when it's price is translated into US Dollars. I'm no economist but I don't see the situation changing much soon. Remember at the €uro's launch 1 US dollar was worth more than 1 €uro. Now 1 €uro is worth 1.4 US dollars. This will work in Boeings favour.
 
Clipper136
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
DL was fairly quick to toss the A310's they got from PanAm, and didn't appear to like them much. AA followed up its lease of the A300s by buying 2-3 times as many competing 767s?

Ok..not this Airlines.net myth again. DL liked the A310 enough to order more. After operating them for a while they made an economic choice to standardize their fleet on the 767. NOT because they were so unhappy with them.

As already mentioned... AA disliked Airbus so much that they continue to operate a large fleet of the very same aircraft that caused the supposed rift. Unfortunately many do not realize the hurt feeling have no place in Big Business. Corporations are lead by boards, not a touchy feely person. Put enough $$$ in front of a corporation and they have a very short memory.

While I agree that AA or DL purchasing A350s is a long shot, I would not say it was impossible.
You can't beat the Experience.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting Carls (Reply 21):

I think you miss the point, A350 isn't a 767 replacement, I agree with you. But A350 it is an excellent replacement for their 777.

And replacement of young 777 isn't a priority at DL or AA whatsoever. Replacement of the 767 is a priority now and the <250-seat 767 is the backbone of their wide body fleets, even more so than the 777. And when it does come time to replace the 777 at the end of next decade, the 787-10 with no MTOW improvements over the 787-9 could fill the 772ER's role completely. They just aren't going to compromise themselves with the A350-800
 
atmx2000
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:16 am

Both AA's and DL's pricing depends on best pricing offered to any Boeing customer AFAIK. Pushing the prices down benefits them.

Of course maybe AA and DL are being Boeing's spies  devil  Seriously, I wonder how much information airlines leak to the opposing manufacturer regarding another manufactuer's claims despite NDAs. It's in their interest to force manufacturers to offer the best possible product

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
And replacement of young 777 isn't a priority at DL or AA whatsoever. Replacement of the 767 is a priority now and the <250-seat 767 is the backbone of their wide body fleets, even more so than the 777. And when it does come time to replace the 777 at the end of next decade, the 787-10 with no MTOW improvements over the 787-9 could fill the 772ER's role completely. They just aren't going to compromise themselves with the A350-800

Yeah, both airlines are entering a replacement cycle for smaller widebodies. And its very possible that they might downguage some flights that only the 777 had the legs for in the past, and thus buy smaller aircraft.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
DL was fairly quick to toss the A310's they got from PanAm, and didn't appear to like them much.



Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 25):
DL liked the A310 enough to order more.

 checkmark 

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
AA followed up its lease of the A300s by buying 2-3 times as many competing 767s?

It's questionable to what extent they were direct competitors.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):
The A300s serve a specific niche in AA's network - high-density (pax and cargo) short-haul services.

 checkmark 

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
AA moved away from GE engines after Sioux City...

Rubbish. They ordered them on their MD11s (after Sioux City) and continued to buy them for their 767s. On one model (the 777) they preferred RR (after ruling out PW and leaving just RR and GE in the race). That hardly constitutes turning their backs on GE.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
For even more fantastc pricing on offer from Airbus???

Unlikely. The verbal exclusivity agreement as I understand it offers AA the lowest negotiated price of that year on all planes purchased in the reference year, as long as AA buys ONLY Boeing. So, if Airbus undercuts Boeing and sells A350s dirt cheap to AA, well, then AA loses the best available price on ALL other orders, including their host of 737s and whatever else they may have on order then.

That's a pretty hefty switching cost to incur!

As to AA being in France. Well, frankly I have no idea why Airbus invited them. However, I do imagine that as a listed company AA has a duty to their shareholders to examine all available options.
If you cannot do the math, your opinion means squat!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 10):
Now, we all know the EU made them tear it up, but we also all know that it is still in place as a gentlemen's agreement.

No, it wasn't torn up. The deal is still in place, but Boeing agreed not to enforce the exclusivity clause. So, in effect, AA, CO & DL can still benefit from it, but there is nothing stopping them from buying Airbus planes.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1997/news.release.970723.html

Quote:
Finally, although Boeing questions whether the company's "exclusive" agreements with its U.S. customers should be the subject of demands by the European Commission, to secure merger approval Boeing further agreed not to enforce the exclusivity provisions in its existing agreements with American Airlines, Delta Airlines and Continental Airlines. The agreements remain otherwise unaffected.
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 15):
Even if it was true, AA and DL would be remiss not to be informed about Airbus offerings. They may prefer Boeing, but they prefer good prices even more.



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
It's just negotiation.

As publicly held companies, they would be failing in their fiduciary duties and responsibilities to shareholders if they completely ignored Airbus and just purchased Boeing. They would be exposing themselves to law suites from shareholders if they couldn't come up with anything better than "We don't like Airbus, so we bought Boeing." My guess is they would have to show documented evidence that both Airbus and Boeing were fully considered for an order for a new type (weighted selection criteria, evaluations and eventual decisions).

In doing all of that, they may just find that the A350 isn't a bad plane. wink 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
art
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:41 pm

Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 29):
Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 11):
For even more fantastc pricing on offer from Airbus???

Unlikely. The verbal exclusivity agreement as I understand it offers AA the lowest negotiated price of that year on all planes purchased in the reference year, as long as AA buys ONLY Boeing.



Quoting Carls (Reply 20):
they are going to visit Airbus just to see what they can get from other supplier, even when they are more than sure they will order Boeing.

AA would be pretty dumb if they did not check what was available from non-Boeing supplier(s). That's the only way I can think of to ascertain the value of the 'special arrangement' they have with Boeing. You can't make informed judgements about the comparative benefits of buying product X without information about the alternative products available.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:34 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.

 checkmark  people keep forgetting this..

For the rest I would read to much in this.

AA and DL fleet mngt boys are invited by Leahy to join an exclusive event where they can get the latest update on A350 and other products, meet direct collegeas / old friends / competitors from all over the world in a nice two days event, absorbing a large amount of relevant industry info, largely sponsored by Leahy.

They bring their wifes for the partner program & attach a few days in Paris. A week well spend.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Burkhard
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:07 pm

In this phase, it is usual that airlines send some people to the manufacturers to ensure their interests to be taken into account - if they will buy or not buy is rather independant of this. The homeworks done on the concepts now will influence how aircrafts will evolve - like the 787 defines 2008 state of the art technologie for small long range aircraft, the A350 will define 2013 state of the art for mid size, and Y3 maybe 2018 for mid to large . Advice that flows into the A350 will flow into Y3 later.
 
Basefly
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:33 pm

Sure AA and DL is probably going to buy Boeing, But rest assure, that is ONLY because they get the better pricing from Boeing and not because some management guys shock hands years ago.

As others have pointed out, there is no way they could be allowed to make bad business decisions just because they like Boeing more.  dollarsign 
757/777-A340/A380, Love them.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):

Airbus has said that they had the A350 slot sold until 2016, so I don't see why AA and DL could not consider this option as a replacement for their 777. But this is only a speculation, the fact is they went to Airbus to see what the A350 could offer them and that is more interesting than our speculations.
If they buy it or not only time will tells us, so I respect your opinion but I just disagree with you.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 32):
AA would be pretty dumb if they did not check what was available from non-Boeing supplier(s). That's the only way I can think of to ascertain the value of the 'special arrangement' they have with Boeing. You can't make informed judgements about the comparative benefits of buying product X without information about the alternative products available.

But my point is, why I will look whatever Airbus has if I am not going to buy it. Some at A.Net have said that they will lose all the benefits on 737,777 they already have if they get something from Airbus or Embraer or anything different than Boeing.
With more than 150 737 AA has or DL has I won't lose that benefit just for one plane. That is why this is very interesting.
AA and DL don't need to visit Airbus to discover what they want or need, if they went to Airbus is because Airbus showed or offered them something that at least might be interesting for them, and even though they are not looking for a 777 replacement the time will come when they need it and the A350-900 will be a much better replacement for a 777 than the 787-100 or 787-11.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.

And yet, folks only seem to agree with this when it comes to replacing US carrier 767s...

The A350 has been offered by many as a logical choice to replace, for example, BA's 767s...
 
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tavong
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting Carls (Reply 37):
But my point is, why I will look whatever Airbus has if I am not going to buy it. Some at A.Net have said that they will lose all the benefits on 737,777 they already have if they get something from Airbus or Embraer or anything different than Boeing.

Maybe cause this is a big bussiness, and no matter if they will buy or not, it´s always a wise decision to keep friendly relations with all the possible suppliers, like IB and their Boeing relations, they keep calling Boeing, and Boeing always attend the calls, even if almost everyone in the world knows they will only buy Airbus.

Quoting Carls (Reply 37):

AA and DL don't need to visit Airbus to discover what they want or need, if they went to Airbus is because Airbus showed or offered them something that at least might be interesting for them, and even though they are not looking for a 777 replacement the time will come when they need it and the A350-900 will be a much better replacement for a 777 than the 787-100 or 787-11.

It's true but we still don´t know what will Boeing bring at that time.

Anyway both the 787 and the A350XWB will be a great planes to sere and fly.

Gus
SKBO
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columba
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 19):
The A350 isn't a 767 replacement at all.

And yet, folks only seem to agree with this when it comes to replacing US carrier 767s...

The A350-800 will replace the A330-200 which is the aircraft that has replaced the 767 with many airlines. It is maybe a little larger but a replacement aircraft must not necessarily have the exact same size.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
The A350 has been offered by many as a logical choice to replace, for example, BA's 767s...

What evidence do you have for this? Airbus may well be offering the A350 to BA but what makes you think they are promoting it as a 767 replacement?

Quoting Carls (Thread starter):
AA and DL are really a surprise to me.

I'll tell you what I find even more surprising. UA wasn't invited.
 
Flighty
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
The A350 has been offered by many as a logical choice to replace, for example, BA's 767s...

The relationship between 767 and A350 is far from clear.

For example among US carriers, it's far from obvious that the A350 would be proper for US Airways to use PHL-ARN, PHL-ZRH. It may be too big for those relatively small markets the 767 currently wins on. Inferior CASM or not, trip cost is lowest on 767.

The A350 is more a 777 replacement. Take a look at the A350-900. Pure next-gen B-772. So I'd say the A350 is a valid replacement for BA's 777 fleet. As for the 767, it's between the 788 and... nothing. The A332 is also a useful replacement.

Can the A358 replace the B763, yes... if they really want a super-A332 on that route. If the route is weaker, and has no revenue upside, I believe the 763's vastly lighter empty weight will be more profitable. Plus, the 763 is cheaper to own.
 
columba
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
I'll tell you what I find even more surprising. UA wasn't invited.

Who knows maybe they were not mentioned in the article. Last time they have been there, too.
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
What evidence do you have for this?

Just peruse any of the threads on BA's upcoming order.  Smile

Quote:
Airbus may well be offering the A350 to BA but what makes you think they are promoting it as a 767 replacement?

Well BA has 767s they need to replace in their current RFP to both suppliers.

Now, it is certainly possible that Airbus feels that they do not have the right planes for this initial RFP, and have instead decided to concentrate on the next one, where BA will be replacing the remainder of their 747 fleet as well as start the replacement of their 777 fleet. Such a decision would explain why there are rumors of Boeing having won the upcoming one with the 747-8I and the 787-8 and BA taking 4-8 more 777-200ERs.
 
Carls
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 41):
I'll tell you what I find even more surprising. UA wasn't invited.

You are absolutely right. I did not realized that until you pointed out. But they could be there and as it was already mentioned they could be not mentioned because that is not a surprise.

[Edited 2007-09-26 15:24:41]
 
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scbriml
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
The A350 has been offered by many as a logical choice to replace, for example, BA's 767s...

Justly so since Airbus's response to any RFP to replace 763s will be the A358. Yes, it's bigger than a 763, but then so is the 788. The fact of the matter is, neither Airbus nor Boeing offers a size-for-size replacement for the 753, 762 or 763.

Any airline replacing 763s is going to have to upscale, unless they buy new 763s. As such, very few (if any) airlines will not consider the A350 for this role. Any airline that doesn't consider the A350 will be paying top dollar for their 788s.
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trex8
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 16):
they have a history of holding a grudge.

maybe they will hold it about as long as they did with MDC after the ORD DC10 till they ordered all those MD80s!
 
kochamLOT
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 46):
Justly so since Airbus's response to any RFP to replace 763s will be the A358. Yes, it's bigger than a 763, but then so is the 788. The fact of the matter is, neither Airbus nor Boeing offers a size-for-size replacement for the 753, 762 or 763.

I dont think so. The 787 is not that much bigger than that of a 763 or 764. Maybe a larger wingspan but the capacity, at least the 787-8 will be almost exactly like the 763. It is a great fit for airlines that have 763s and would have bought a 764 but needed more range but needed efficiency not matched by a330-200s.
Why would Airbus make large versions of its aircraft - it seems like less of a 787 competitor and more of a 772-LR attack.
the 787 is a great aircraft because it allows airlines to increase frequency point to point from airports that cant fill 777s. Airbus a350s are for much greater capacity than 767s, more to the likes of its own a330s....so why?
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Airbus Rolls Out A350 XWB Design Revisions

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting KochamLOT (Reply 48):
I dont think so. The 787 is not that much bigger than that of a 763 or 764. Maybe a larger wingspan but the capacity, at least the 787-8 will be almost exactly like the 763.

Well the 788 is slightly longer than the 763, and can take 8 or 9 abreast in Y as opposed to 7 in the 763, so that sounds like a significantly larger plane to me.

RE BA, although they have 767s to replace, it doesn't autonatically follow that they require a 767 SIZED replacement, after all, unlikely many US carriers, the 767 is hardly at the heart of BA's longhaul fleet...
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