positiverate
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DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:53 pm

U.S. TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY PETERS ANNOUNCES
NEW U.S. – CHINA AVIATION ROUTES FROM ATLANTA, SAN FRANCISCO, CHICAGO, NEWARK, DETROIT AND PHILADELPHIA

ATLANTA, GA – Flying from the United States to China will be more convenient, thanks to new direct routes from Atlanta and San Francisco announced today by U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary E. Peters. The Secretary also announced proposed awards for service from Chicago, Newark, Detroit and Philadelphia.

“By bringing China and the U.S. one step closer, we increase our ability to compete, boost our success in the global marketplace, and make international travel for all passengers easier and more affordable,” Secretary Peters said.

Secretary Peters announced that Delta Airlines had been awarded a new direct route from Atlanta to Shanghai, making them the first airline to fly that route. The Secretary also announced that United Airlines was awarded a direct route from San Francisco to Guangzhou, to begin flying in 2008. Both the Delta and United awards represent final decisions by the Department.

Peters also proposed awards for four new daily flights to begin in 2009: American Airlines for Chicago-Beijing service, Continental Airlines for Newark-Shanghai service, Northwest Airlines for Detroit-Shanghai service, and US Airways for Philadelphia-Beijing service. Final decisions of these proposed awards will be made in the near future after further public comment.

Secretary Peters said the announcement today is the result of an agreement signed in July with the Chinese government to open up airways between the two countries and double the number of daily flights allowed between the U.S. and China over the next five years. The agreement also allows for new cargo flights operating to and from the U.S. and China.

By increasing competition, allowing more flight options, and reducing costly stops and layovers, these new direct routes are expected to lower fares and increase convenience for both business and leisure passengers to travel to China, Secretary Peters said.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:59 pm

I still dont think US deserved PHL, since the northeast is well served between EWR and IAD, and even ORD to an extent. Plus US's inability to get their act together for this bid... they had plenty of time to prepare. I would have supported US if it was for an airport other than PHL, but other routes and regions could have benefitted more than US-PHL.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
I still dont think US deserved PHL, since the northeast is well served between EWR and IAD, and even ORD to an extent. Plus US's inability to get their act together for this bid... they had plenty of time to prepare. I would have supported US if it was for an airport other than PHL, but other routes and regions could have benefitted more than US-PHL.

US was a shoo-in as a new carrier designation, and frankly, PHL is the strongest of its hubs for China service. NW is the lucky one.
 
UnitedFirst
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:09 pm

Interesting. Of all of the candidates, CO was the only shoo-in, in my opinion. I'm only disappointed to see that Delta didn't receive ATLPEK as well. I suppose AA's ORDPEK makes sense in an effort for more competition against a dominant United.

US receiving PHLPEK is the real surprise – granted, it clearly only had to do with the "new carrier designation." Now let the 'When will the A340s arrive' speculation begin.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:09 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
I still dont think US deserved PHL, since the northeast is well served between EWR and IAD, and even ORD to an extent. Plus US's inability to get their act together for this bid... they had plenty of time to prepare. I would have supported US if it was for an airport other than PHL, but other routes and regions could have benefitted more than US-PHL.

This award is not final, it is still open to public comment if you read the press release:

Quoting Positiverate (Thread starter):
Peters also proposed awards for four new daily flights to begin in 2009: American Airlines for Chicago-Beijing service, Continental Airlines for Newark-Shanghai service, Northwest Airlines for Detroit-Shanghai service, and US Airways for Philadelphia-Beijing service. Final decisions of these proposed awards will be made in the near future after further public comment.

I think UA is playing their cards better than anyone. A route to the Chinese mainland from LAX will come for them probably in 2010. CO is trying too hard to get EWR-PVG service perhaps a bit pre-maturely since so many Chinese carriers offer JFK service. BUT, their ship looks to come in perhaps late in 2009.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
BA744PHX
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:10 pm

Based on that then CO EWR-PVG shouldnt be awarded either correct?

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 1):
I still dont think US deserved PHL, since the northeast is well served between EWR and IAD, and even ORD to an extent. Plus US's inability to get their act together for this bid... they had plenty of time to prepare.
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
This award is not final, it is still open to public comment if you read the press release:

There is no reason to believe that it will not ultimately be final.
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:16 pm

 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:17 pm

From DOT:

By this final order, the Department awards Delta Air Lines, Inc. (Delta) certificate authority to provide combination services in the Atlanta-Shanghai market and allocate to Delta seven weekly combination frequencies for its proposed Atlanta-Shanghai services. The rights become available to Delta immediately. By this final order, the Department allocates to United Air Lines, Inc., (United) seven weekly combination frequencies for its proposed San Francisco-Guangzhou combination services. The rights become available on March 25, 2008. By the show-cause portion of this order, the Department tentatively decides to award US Airways, Inc. (US Airways) certificate authority to provide combination services in the Philadelphia-Beijing market and to allocate to US Airways seven weekly combination frequencies for its proposed Philadelphia-Beijing services. The Department also tentatively decides to allocate the remaining 21 weekly combination frequencies as follows: seven weekly frequencies each to American Airlines, Inc. (American) for its proposed Chicago-Beijing services, Continental Airlines, Inc. (Continental) for its proposed New York/Newark-Shanghai services, and Northwest Airlines, Inc. (Northwest) for its proposed Detroit-Shanghai services. These rights become available on March 25, 2009.
 
airmailer
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:18 pm

Does it seem odd to anyone else that the other SkyTeam partners were also filing to fly to Shanghai?
I mean shouldn't they diversify the destinations to make the total network stronger?
... or are they maybe trying to lock-up the business in the Shanghai market (I have no idea what other US airlines already fly to Shanghai)?
 
RL757PVD
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:18 pm

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 5):
Based on that then CO EWR-PVG shouldnt be awarded either correct?

EWR and IAD already have PEK. it would have been nice to see the Southeast US, (or a new region) get a PEK connection, not an existing region. as stated i would have supported CLT or PHX , but not a Clusterfunk of an airport within 2 hours of two existing PEK routes.
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:20 pm

 
airmailer
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RE: DL China Announcement

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:27 pm

and here it is from DL...

Delta Air Lines Wins Rights to Serve China Nonstop from Atlanta

Flights between world’s largest airline hub in Atlanta and fast-growing Shanghai slated to begin March 30, 2008

ATLANTA, Sept. 25, 2007 – Delta Air Lines (NYSE: DAL) is poised to add nonstop flights between the world’s largest airline hub in Atlanta and Shanghai, China*, effective March 30, 2008, based on a ruling issued today by the U.S. Department of Transportation.

“We applaud Secretary Peters and the Department of Transportation for recognizing that nonstop Delta flights between Atlanta and Shanghai will bring more value to airline customers than any competing route application,” said Delta Chief Executive Officer Richard Anderson. “Delta’s new flights to China will fill a critical void in air travel today by providing the 65 million residents of the Southeast with direct access to the world’s fastest growing economy.”

Delta plans to provide daily nonstop service between Atlanta and China using its flagship Boeing 777 aircraft in a two-class configuration featuring BusinessElite, Delta’s award-winning business class service. Additionally, Delta plans to introduce fully horizontal lie-flat seats on its Boeing 777 fleet beginning in 2008, with new in-seat entertainment system offering on-demand, digital video and music at every suite.
 
airmailer
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:11 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 8):
Atlanta-Shanghai services. The rights become available to Delta immediately.

I was a little suprised to see that DL is waiting until practically next April to start the service even though they have the rights today. I realize that this is because they are waiting for the LRs to be delivered but I guess I was hoping that it would be sooner than this.

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 12):
Flights between world’s largest airline hub in Atlanta and fast-growing Shanghai slated to begin March 30, 2008

I haven't been keeping up... When are they scheduled to receive the first of thier LRs on order?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:12 am

About damn time Big grin . Most important part of the news is probably that this flight will "only" start in late March 08, meaning pending on-time delivery, DL's first 2 77Ls will be on property by the time the route starts, meaning DL won't have to source used 777s for the flight.
 
positiverate
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 13):
I was a little suprised to see that DL is waiting until practically next April to start the service even though they have the rights today. I realize that this is because they are waiting for the LRs to be delivered but I guess I was hoping that it would be sooner than this.

They just don't have the airplanes. Plus, it does take some time to set up marketing, the PVG station, etc...
 
burnsie28
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:18 am

What a bunch of BS that Delta got the slots, UA, NW, or CO could have started operating those tomorrow if they wanted, and thats what the airlines were planning on doing, but instead they waste a slot for 2007 and yet DL is not going to start until end of March next year. DL should have been awarded the 2008 slot and the other slot givin to NW or CO. UA shouldn't get anymore because they already have more then enough slots, compared to NW which they whine about NW could operate DTW-PEK tomorrow if they wanted (yes true) however, that is NW only mainland route, while UA flies 2x SFO-PEK, IAD-PEK, ORD-PEK etc. US is a joke as well. I also think since UA has more then enough slots (and they could dump one of their PEK-SFO flights for SFO-Guangzhou) that they should have recieved 2009 rights.
 
RL757PVD
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
What a bunch of BS that Delta got the slots, UA, NW, or CO could have started operating those tomorrow if they wanted, and thats what the airlines were planning on doing, but instead they waste a slot for 2007 and yet DL is not going to start until end of March next year.

Delta had a backup plan to start the service if the DOT required a sooner start, they just dont have to resort to that now...
Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
 
747fan
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:23 am

I was a bit surprised to see that LAX-PEK on United wasn't one of the proposed routes. I was thinking that route would edge out DTW-PVG since LAX doesn't yet have nonstop service to mainland China on a U.S. carrier, but I was wrong. Maybe the D.O.T. felt the market was already well-served on the China carriers, which it is. Congrats to NW on DTW-PVG, I felt that one was the "dark horse" in this competition. And congrats to all the other carriers, especially Delta and USAirways. And I'm glad CO got EWR-PVG after failing to get that during the last round; they really wanted EWR-PVG bad. Of course, these routes aren't necessarily a done deal yet.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:35 am

for those of you who think I am biased towards DL, I started a new thread regarding all of the China awards by all carriers but the moderators deleted it as duplicated info...so all of the China route case discussions will apparently be done under a Delta thread.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:38 am

Delta is the surprise. They are flying to a region without much Shanghai demand.

CO, AA, US, NW are flying to regions with much more China demand. NW will serve nearly all of DL's "wide market" with faster speed. This will set up an intriguing competition between NW and DL come 2009. Why is there an ATL to China flight? Politics, and a thirst for experimentation at DL. NW will beat them on speed for most journeys.

NW finally got what they have deserved for several years. NW has loyally served the USA-China market for too many years to mention. It is demeaning that they should compete against US and DL and AA for these new rights. NW carries more credibility than any of them in this market. Their hub is also the best located to serve Americans from the East Coast.

AA's bid was extremely strong. It is a good thing they won. Same goes for CO. Their EWR hub gets another crown jewel.

US's bid was much-criticized but at least US can serve a wider market including the very-important BOS market with a lot of speed. Markets like PVD, BDL, LGA, DCA, IND, MIA, RDU will also be very big (and quick connecting) feeders for the US route. I would be very slow to criticize a Beijing bid that connects those feeders so very well (perhaps fastest, considering CO's weak connectivity at EWR). But, US's main problem is actually customer service. They better improve it (and fast) by 2009. That means lots of money invested and a new J product.
 
Iloveboeing
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:42 am

It makes sense that CO is getting EWR-PVG. They already serve the two other main Chinese cities (HKG and PEK) from EWR, so PVG is a natural addition.
 
airmailer
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
Why is there an ATL to China flight?

I just read a news article about yet another Chinese company setting up shop in Georgia last week... An agricultural equipment manufacturer if I recall correctly.

There are a lot of companies in Georgia and across the SouthEast region doing business in China and they need direct air service.
As far as the actual destination (Shanghai) I don't know if that one is a good pick or not, but I do know that if I were flying to anywhere in China during the winter I would sure as heck rather connect in Atlanta than in Detroit if those were my choices.
 
ScottB
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
I also think since UA has more then enough slots (and they could dump one of their PEK-SFO flights for SFO-Guangzhou) that they should have recieved 2009 rights.

The 2008 route availability was restricted to Guangzhou by the agreement between the PRC and the USA. No one else applied for CAN, so clearly United wins the route award as the sole applicant.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
What a bunch of BS that Delta got the slots, UA, NW, or CO could have started operating those tomorrow if they wanted, and thats what the airlines were planning on doing, but instead they waste a slot for 2007 and yet DL is not going to start until end of March next year. DL should have been awarded the 2008 slot and the other slot givin to NW or CO.

Except the 2008 route authority was specific to Guangzhou. And this round of route awards seems to clearly demonstrate that DOT wants to use the new carrier designations which have been granted under the agreement with China.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
compared to NW which they whine about NW could operate DTW-PEK tomorrow if they wanted (yes true) however, that is NW only mainland route

As you said, NW could start DTW-PEK tomorrow, but they seem to be more interested in the Japan-China market than the U.S. China market. NW's route authorities to China aren't tied to NRT.
 
NW748i
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 9):
Does it seem odd to anyone else that the other SkyTeam partners were also filing to fly to Shanghai? ...trying to lock-up the business in the Shanghai market

Perhaps PVG is being prepped to be the Skyteam hub for China? Who is the dominant carrier there? It would be interesting to if that carrier (or one of them) is looking to join Skyteam. If this isn't the intend, it should be.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
What a bunch of BS that Delta got the slots, UA, NW, or CO could have started operating those tomorrow

Indeed, not the best allocation of resources to give this to DL for this year. DL could have taken the 2008 award, in all fairness. But then, this blocks the competition from setting up shop, so not a bad move tactically speaking.
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting NW748i (Reply 24):
Perhaps PVG is being prepped to be the Skyteam hub for China?

There is no evidence to support this. There would need to a member or an associate member hub or sizeable presence to make this work. But, I don't see it is as likely. Not even remote IMHO.
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
airmailer
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting B4REAL (Reply 25):
There is no evidence to support this. There would need to a member or an associate member hub or sizeable presence to make this work. But, I don't see it is as likely. Not even remote IMHO.

O.K.... but can you answer his question.
Who's the dominant carrier there in the Shanghai?... and do they have a current alliance?
 
B2443
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting NW748i (Reply 24):
Perhaps PVG is being prepped to be the Skyteam hub for China? Who is the dominant carrier there? It would be interesting to if that carrier (or one of them) is looking to join Skyteam. If this isn't the intend, it should be.

The dominant carrier at PVG would be MU, which controls about 35% the passenger traffic. FM has about 18% and CA has about 12%. FM and CA are joining Star Alliance in December 2007. MU has not joined anything.

CZ is going SkyTeam but it hubs at CAN and somewhat at PEK.
 
ScottB
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting NW748i (Reply 24):
Perhaps PVG is being prepped to be the Skyteam hub for China? Who is the dominant carrier there?

If anything, CAN will be the SkyTeam hub in China, given that China Southern is slated to join that alliance later this year and their primary hub is at CAN. They have a smaller hub at PEK.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 22):
but I do know that if I were flying to anywhere in China during the winter I would sure as heck rather connect in Atlanta than in Detroit if those were my choices.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. But okay. Detroit does not have delays as much as Atlanta. A blizzard or two, but they handle handle snow like Atlanta handles the humidity. Performance-wise, they are both very good hubs in any season.
 
B4REAL
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 26):
O.K.... but can you answer his question.
Who's the dominant carrier there in the Shanghai?... and do they have a current alliance?



Quoting ScottB (Reply 28):
If anything, CAN will be the SkyTeam hub in China, given that China Southern is slated to join that alliance later this year and their primary hub is at CAN. They have a smaller hub at PEK.

 checkmark 
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
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CV880
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:04 am

At this point, could DL theoretically apply for a 2008 route to TSN, which is about a 1hr rail ride (less by next year) from Central Beijing? TSN is the major port for NE China.
 
positiverate
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
Delta is the surprise.

Seriously? Delta is the least biggest surprise in the award.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
They are flying to a region without much Shanghai demand.

And you're basing that on...? The South has tremendous demand for service to Shanghai. Just look at the diversity of industry and business that make the South home, and that also do business in China. Shanghai is the business capital of China after all.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
Why is there an ATL to China flight? Politics, and a thirst for experimentation at DL.

How about the fact that it is the world's largest hub? How about the fact that it can provide feed that doesn't depend on an O&D market, while also creating an O&D market given the significant business community in Atlanta and Georgia?
 
pilotboi
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:18 am

Another one to check off the list. Congrats to Delta!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
Delta is the surprise. They are flying to a region without much Shanghai demand.

CO, AA, US, NW are flying to regions with much more China demand. NW will serve nearly all of DL's "wide market" with faster speed. This will set up an intriguing competition between NW and DL come 2009. Why is there an ATL to China flight? Politics, and a thirst for experimentation at DL. NW will beat them on speed for most journeys.

NW finally got what they have deserved for several years. NW has loyally served the USA-China market for too many years to mention. It is demeaning that they should compete against US and DL and AA for these new rights. NW carries more credibility than any of them in this market. Their hub is also the best located to serve Americans from the East Coast.

Clearly, you haven't been keeping up with the DOT and the recent China applications over the past three years. DL is not a surprise at all. The only unknown for DL was whether they would get two awards. Contrary to you comments above, the biggest surprise was NW. UA had CAN because no one else applied. CO and AA each got one because they each only have one, and US definitely was going to get one because the Chinese were allowing a new-carrier designation in 2009 in addition to the one this year, which DL got. The issue is and continues to be with NW that they use their current China designations for service from Tokyo, which is less beneficial to the U.S. originating passenger. NW should be breathing a sigh of relief right now because they are very fortunate to have been awarded an authority they already have but choose to operate through Tokyo.
 
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fxramper
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:22 am

Report - DL Gets China Route Authority (by Flynavy Sep 25 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
unitednrt
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 16):
I also think since UA has more then enough slots (and they could dump one of their PEK-SFO flights for SFO-Guangzhou) that they should have recieved 2009 rights.

Well I agree we should as well, if we had San Francisco to Beijing twice daily, but unfortunately we operate it only once.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
NW748i
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting B2443 (Reply 27):
The dominant carrier at PVG would be MU

For obvious reasons everyone wants to get a slice of PVG, but the fact that Skyteam might have no future there as far as a hub seems to be a disconnect. That's not saying that there would be no serious profit, but basically kicks this back to AirMailer's question above. If Skyteam's best shot at a hub is CAN as some have said, what are they doing to bring such an outcome about?

My humble suggestion is that someone at Skyteam pick up the nearest phone and MU to lay some groundwork for 'future collaboration' on a grand scale... China is big enough for them to have a hub and focus city, if not simply two hubs (or perhaps put another Asia hub in India, which is another huge hole in teh network). Indeed, the time for action is now.
Hail! to the victors valiant, Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes, Hail! Hail! to Michigan the leaders and best! Go Blue!
 
ualcsr
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:37 am

Why is this thread titled DL China announcement when it involves all other US legacies? Moderator should change the title of this thread so it more accurately reflects the content.
 
ZL
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:45 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 34):
The issue is and continues to be with NW that they use their current China designations for service from Tokyo, which is less beneficial to the U.S.

Again:

NW's service to China from Tokyo is less beneficial to eastern U.S. passengers, but is clearly more beneficial to western ones. It gives western passengers another choice, besides UA, of visiting China via u.s. flag carriers. I don't think this is bad at all, and DOT doesn't either.
 
as739x
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 36):

But I am sure United wished they had 2 daily. I saw that post and thought I had missed something.

Personally I think CAN will be a very good route for United. Any idea where the a/c will come from? I'd expect a 744 due to maximizing load, thought the 777 has the range.

And I'd expect an application for SFO-TSN next time around

ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
airmailer
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting NW748i (Reply 37):
For obvious reasons everyone wants to get a slice of PVG, but the fact that Skyteam might have no future there as far as a hub seems to be a disconnect. That's not saying that there would be no serious profit, but basically kicks this back to AirMailer's question above. If Skyteam's best shot at a hub is CAN as some have said, what are they doing to bring such an outcome about?

Well maybe they wanted both CAN and PVG....
Look at it this way, if DL, CO, and NW knew that they were getting a hub partner there in CAN it would make sense long term to go ahead strike at the PVG market - get some routes there, while on the other end building up the links to CAN some other way. Not only does this keep SkyTeam from having too many eggs in one basket, but it helps them grow thier network in China while keeping another player(s) out of PVG (I don't mean keep another player out entirely, I just mean that SkyTeam just took the only three new awards to that city for now, right?).
Now if they can just get China Southern to add some domestic China flights out of PVG and also get them to connect CAN to somewhere in the US they will have a rather robust China expansion plan....

But what do I know about airlines??
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting ZL (Reply 39):
NW's service to China from Tokyo is less beneficial to eastern U.S. passengers, but is clearly more beneficial to western ones. It gives western passengers another choice, besides UA, of visiting China via u.s. flag carriers. I don't think this is bad at all, and DOT doesn't either.

That's not the point, and if you read the past DOT orders you will understand that. Regardless of whether NW's service is better for West Coast passengers is irrelevant to the overall applications and awards. DOT is interested in what is best for the passengers, and nonstop service from the U.S. is the number one priority. In addition West Coast passengers have the most nonstop service to China already. All NW offers West Coast passengers is the ability for change-of-plane connecting service through Asia to China. Christ, Korean offers that, along with every other Asian carrier that serves the West Coast.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5035
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 17):
Delta had a backup plan to start the service if the DOT required a sooner start, they just dont have to resort to that now...

Except look at this the reason why the DOT gave DL it, so it looks like 2007 was DL or NW.

Quote:
Delta beat out Northwest for the 2007 award because it offers "superior competitive benefits" and gives the southeastern U.S. its first nonstop China flight, Andrew Steinberg, a department assistant secretary, wrote in the order.

So based on the reason that the DOT gave DL the route they should have to start it this year.
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 43):
So based on the reason that the DOT gave DL the route they should have to start it this year.

Come on guys - it takes at least three months to get a flight like this marketed. In addition, the carrier has to secure slots through the Chinese authorities. Realistically speaking, the earliest a flight could get up and running (without huge losses) would be around Christmas. The peak season for China is not the winter, it's the summer. Delaying the start of the flight an extra three months doesn't mean a hill of beans in the long term. Jeez .. you NW apologists should be grateful you even got an award - quit the whining.
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:40 am

Any idea when the schedules will be loaded into the system or how early they can get this implemented? I imagine the 2008 awards will be important for the olympics in Beijing.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
rwsea
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
CO, AA, US, NW are flying to regions with much more China demand. NW will serve nearly all of DL's "wide market" with faster speed. This will set up an intriguing competition between NW and DL come 2009. Why is there an ATL to China flight? Politics, and a thirst for experimentation at DL. NW will beat them on speed for most journeys.

True. I would have preferred to see UA win over US (for LAX-PVG) but other than that things seem pretty balanced. At least DL didn't get ATL-PEK; that would have been a travesty.

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 32):
And you're basing that on...? The South has tremendous demand for service to Shanghai.

No it doesn't. ATL-PVG isn't even in the top 20 US-China O&D routes. Look, DL got the rights simply because they're a new entrant. There's little to no demand for the Southeastern US to China. Won't be for a long time. That has been proven time and time again in stats provided by DL, the DOT, and those in the know here on a.net. You can keep trying to assert that there is this great deal of demand, but there isn't. We'll see how DL does on this route. I'm sure they'll do fine given the regulatory environment restricting competition, but they'll likely have weaker performance than all the other carriers short of US. Just because a hub is big doesn't mean there's unlimited demand to any big city in the world.
 
sq452
Posts: 994
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 46):
No it doesn't. ATL-PVG isn't even in the top 20 US-China O&D routes. Look, DL got the rights simply because they're a new entrant. There's little to no demand for the Southeastern US to China. Won't be for a long time. That has been proven time and time again in stats provided by DL, the DOT, and those in the know here on a.net. You can keep trying to assert that there is this great deal of demand, but there isn't. We'll see how DL does on this route. I'm sure they'll do fine given the regulatory environment restricting competition, but they'll likely have weaker performance than all the other carriers short of US. Just because a hub is big doesn't mean there's unlimited demand to any big city in the world.

O&D no, connecting traffic yes, especially from the Florida market. DL was smart in marketing the route and making their case that this route was really from the whole southeast of the United States and not just from ATL. ATL (as much as I hate going through that airport) will draw a lot of connecting traffic from other key markets in the region. I imagine you'll see 65%-80% of loads on the flight be connecting passengers not originating/terminating their travel in ATL. That number could be even higher, who knows, wait and see.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:57 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 42):
. All NW offers West Coast passengers is the ability for change-of-plane connecting service through Asia to China.

And they do that successfully for hundreds of US originating passengers everyday. Filling a need.
 
positiverate
Posts: 1543
Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 10:35 pm

RE: DL China Announcement

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 46):
No it doesn't. ATL-PVG isn't even in the top 20 US-China O&D routes.

I didn't say ATL-PVG. I said:

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 32):
The South has tremendous demand for service to Shanghai. Just look at the diversity of industry and business that make the South home, and that also do business in China.



Quoting SQ452 (Reply 47):
O&D no, connecting traffic yes, especially from the Florida market. DL was smart in marketing the route and making their case that this route was really from the whole southeast of the United States and not just from ATL. ATL (as much as I hate going through that airport) will draw a lot of connecting traffic from other key markets in the region. I imagine you'll see 65%-80% of loads on the flight be connecting passengers not originating/terminating their travel in ATL. That number could be even higher, who knows, wait and see.

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